#662 &#8211; How I Organized My Pots &#038; Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:06)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutterfree Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And today we’re going to get as practical as you can get. We’re going to be as intentional and you know I like the word prescriptive but Tonya can we just call it what it is, it’s bossy right?

Tonya Kubo (00:31)
Hey, I love to be bossed around. And I think our listeners do too.

Kathi Lipp (00:33)
Right?

Yes. Well, you know, in our paid group, we have an opportunity, at least this year, where you and I got on calls with people for 15 minutes and really what they want. First of all, they want to just unburden on somebody that knows that they’re not going to be judged by. But the other thing is they want to be bossed around. yeah, and I love that for us. And so

Tonya Kubo (00:58)
yeah.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
Today we’re gonna get down into the nitty gritty. We’re talking about the dreaded kitchen cupboard. And let me just tell you the worst one of all is where the pots and pans live. Is that a sore spot for you or have you got that all figured out?

Tonya Kubo (01:19)
Well, I wouldn’t say I have it all figured out, but mine hang. So they don’t get like they do for some people, right? Where they’re like piling. So my issue is actually the lids because the lids don’t hang. So I have the lids like stacked on the shelf and then sometimes they fall on my head.

Kathi Lipp (01:23)
interesting.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I could

see where that would happen. Well, we’ve got approximately 20 minutes that we are and we’ve got a little commercial break, but otherwise all we’re going to be doing is talking about pots and pans because here’s the thing friends. It’s the little things right and we want you to take those little spaces that can be a little annoying can be a little frustrating and let’s let’s tackle them. Okay, we’re going to tackle them together Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (02:07)
Alrighty, sounds good. So, Kathi if you don’t mind, I’m gonna reverse our roles here a bit, because I am curious about, I guess what I wanna start off with is, because I’ve been to your house, but most of our listeners haven’t, I want you to describe what was the pots and pans cupboard like before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so, you know, as we’ve talked about many times before, you come to my house and you don’t see a ton of clutter. But I will always be a cluttery girl at heart. That’s my deep, that’s my, that’s my truth. That is my truth. And that pots and pan cupboard, you know, when we moved in, of course I organized it. I did everything I could, but it’s just, if, if nobody lived there, it would stay so much more organized. But sadly, you know, I’m a cook.

Tonya Kubo (02:38)
Mm-hmm.

That is your truth.

Kathi Lipp (03:01)
I like to cook and I’m very fortunate that Roger puts dishes away, but it was always a pain. It was because it’s low. It’s a corner cupboard. And so you kind of have to dig back in there. And if you really want some stuff that’s all the way in the back, holy cow. And so a lot of things got shoved and I am a collector at heart. So there were things like

Tonya Kubo (03:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
weird cake pans and different kinds of muffin tins and three of my favorite kind of saucepan, things like that. So it just felt like, okay, once I could get those pans out of there, I could get to cooking. But there was always that kind of burden in there.

Tonya Kubo (03:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and so your corner cabinet, because I’ve been to your house, I think one of the issues, and I think a lot of people have this issue too, is that the opening to the cabinet is actually much more narrow than the cabinet. It’s like the Harry Potter closet, right? It’s like you open it up and it’s like, hey, there’s a whole room in here. So I’m just curious, did you find that when you had people over, because you entertain a lot, did their way of putting…

Kathi Lipp (04:06)
Yes, yes. Right, absolutely. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:23)
things away kind of add to the challenge. It’s not that we’re upset that anybody would come over and put your dishes away because we know that that’s a gift. That’s a blessing. But I’m just curious if yes, you and Roger maybe had some difficulty, but maybe some guests possibly added to the difficulty.

Kathi Lipp (04:29)
Never. Yes. Yes.

Well,

I think some people don’t want to see things. They’re like, if it’s hidden, it’s not clutter. So they might put a pot or something into a deep stock pot. And I might not see that for four months. other problem is that it’s like a cave, right? And I didn’t want, I know that there are some fancy people out there who is like,

Tonya Kubo (04:43)
Mmm. Got it.

Keep right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:07)
I had somebody come rewire my cabinets. I don’t have rewire my cabinets kind of money. That’s just not something I’m choosing to spend money on at this time. So there were a lot of different, you know, it was overcrowded. You couldn’t reach certain pots. I would actually have to call Roger from upstairs to grab some of those things. You know, there were duplicate, it was just a mess.

Tonya Kubo (05:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I’m imagining part of it is also your arms aren’t long enough to get to the back, right? I mean, mine, I know mine aren’t long enough to get to the back of your cabinet.

Kathi Lipp (05:35)
Right, I…

I am the T-Rex of human beings. I have the shortest arms in the world. And you you mentioned lids. Lids are a real issue. And so, you know, we just had to deal with all that kind of stuff. I’m making it sound worse than it is. I’m compiling like three years of frustration into a, in three minutes. But I think there are other people who have felt this frustration.

Tonya Kubo (05:41)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Well, but I don’t really feel like you’re making a bigger deal out of it than it is because to your point, I think everybody has these frustrations regardless of what the physical space looks like. I think all of us have some cabinet and oftentimes it’s our pots and pads cabinet where our arms aren’t long enough to get to the back. All of us have an issue with nesting like smaller items inside of larger items but then the largest item being so deep that you can’t see what’s inside.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:33)
Like, so I do think I appreciate the fact that you spent three minutes on this because I think you’ve listed all the pain points that our listeners are most likely to experience with our pots and pans. So now it’s the big question, Kathi, because this is the question that plagues everybody in our community. It’s what was your first move?

Kathi Lipp (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

So I finally had to admit to myself those little cake tins that were shaped like flowers. The one that was shaped like Thomas the Tank Engine. Those specialty things, dude, I’m just not that special. I’m just not. And I might imagine someday in the future when I have grandkids that they would want that train pan.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:17)
But you know, we have to come to the realization what our grandkids want is rarely what our kids wanted. And by the way, I don’t have anybody who is planning on having children in my family. So what was I holding on to those things for? And then, you know, there was so much someday in there is that, you know, I’ve realized keeping something that you use once a decade.

Tonya Kubo (07:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
isn’t worth losing daily cupboard space.

Tonya Kubo (07:49)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
It’s just not. It’s, you know, it’s so many of it would be more worth it to me to go to Michael’s, buy the cake pan, use it and immediately donate it. That would be a better use of my time, space, money and energy than keeping a cake pan I use once every 10 years. So I had to go through that cabinet and say,

Tonya Kubo (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)
If I’m not using this, why? So one of the things I did immediately, like one of the cake pans, I have a popover pan and I probably haven’t used that in a decade. And I’m like, I’m not willing to get rid of this. So I had to be willing to use it. So I made popovers, they were terrible. I’m going to make them again. I’m going to do it until I get it right. But if you’re going to hang on to something you haven’t used before.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)
Hmm.

haha

Kathi Lipp (08:47)
Are you imagining a life that you want to someday have or can you just use it right now? Say, I’m gonna try it and I’m gonna use it. if you’re willing to use it right away, I say keep it. If you’re not willing to use it right away, it’s probably time to get rid of it.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Yeah, well, and what I like about that perspective is it falls completely in line with our principle about negotiating space. I mean, there’s only so much real estate in a home and there’s only so much real estate that you can afford to designate for your pots and pans, right? Because there’s a whole lot more that goes into a kitchen. So those specialty pans, like they sound like the easiest decision to make, the best starting.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Right. Yes, yes.

Exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
But after that, it feels to me like everything else would be equal priority. So where did you go from there?

Kathi Lipp (09:38)
Hmm

Duplicates okay, so Tonya I fancy myself a cook. I know I know I know

Tonya Kubo (09:42)
no. Don’t pick

on my four muffin tins, Kathi Lip. Do not pick on my four muffin tins.

Kathi Lipp (09:47)
Okay, okay, can I just say though if

if you like me Use your four muffin tins at the same time Then you get to keep those muffin tins like I often will do a big batch of muffins and I will use both tins at the same time to bake a bunch of things at the same time and I also have big muffin tins

Tonya Kubo (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:17)
I also have teeny tiny muffin tins. And by the way, I use all of those. So I have two regular muffin tins, one big and one teeny tiny, and I use all of them. So you know what? I kept all of them. I’m about as close to a, I don’t want to say a professional cook, because that doesn’t describe me. But I did write a cookbook and I had to use these things. But how many times did I use the same size

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:47)
I do have some fry pans that are slightly larger, some that are slightly smaller, and those were perfectly good. So I gave away some of my duplicate, you know, the pan that you’re like, okay, if the apocalypse happens and I need it, that pan is there. Well, the apocalypse doesn’t happen, but you know what, COVID did, and I never used that pan, so it was time to get rid of it. So, at,

Tonya Kubo (10:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Got it, okay.

Kathi Lipp (11:14)
Ask yourself if you really need three stockpots. If not, donate or sell or buy nothing group or something like that. And I’m pointing at me because I have two, here’s the thing, I wrote a book about soup. I kept too many stockpots. It’s time to, because I have slow cookers. I have other big pots. I don’t need, is it two or three stockpots? I don’t know, but you know what? Yeah, sometimes you have to do this in layers. There’s layers.

Tonya Kubo (11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And the muffin tins thing, that was a big argument I had with my best friend, Amber, if you’re listening, this is about you. Because I had four muffin tins and she was just like, you only need one. And I’m like, no, because I oftentimes will make two dozen muffins, two dozen cupcakes. And she was like, yes. So you bake them in one, you empty those out to cool and then you do the other. And I’m like, you obviously do not understand my workflow in the kitchen.

Kathi Lipp (11:50)
Hahaha!

Yes.

No,

Tonya Kubo (12:11)
I do not want to wait for the muffins to cool, to take them out, to then

Kathi Lipp (12:12)
no. Right, right.

Tonya Kubo (12:15)
refill them. That feels like dead time. So thank you for validating my four muffin tins. That’s really what this is about. This is validating me in a 20 year old argument. Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (12:18)
And Kim.

Yes. And

Tonya, also, what’s the storage harm in those muffin tins? Because they nest right into each other. So I’m giving you a cupcake pass.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)
right. That is true.

Yes, I get the cupcake pass. I’m so excited. Okay, so we’ve removed our specialty pans that we’re not using and we’re not willing to use. We have gotten rid of our duplicates. What’s next?

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

So I just think getting rid, when you get rid of those duplicates, I want you to think about who can I give these to? Sometimes our first thing is who can I sell these to? I don’t think, I think oftentimes if maybe we’re a little bit more on the side, this side of 40 years old than we are on that side of 40 years old. And to think through, you know,

Do I really need the money for this or could I help somebody like people helped me when I was first starting out? You know that extra muffin tin. So could you use that it organizes your space and then you act, you know, we can bless someone else by passing on items we don’t actually use because that may become their favorite muffin tin.

Tonya Kubo (13:42)
that totally makes sense. Okay, well, we’re gonna have to pay some bills, take a break. But when we come back, dear listener, do not leave us because now that we’ve talked about how we’ve minimized the pots and pans area, we’re gonna talk about organizing.

All right, so we are back and we are going to hear from Kathi. Kathi, you are going to talk to us about how you organized your pots and pans after you decluttered all the excess that you didn’t need.

Kathi Lipp (14:11)
Right. Okay, so one of the first things I did was I installed lighting. Now, like I said, this sounds like a rich person solution, right?

Tonya Kubo (14:21)
I

was gonna say I need more info on this Kathi. Yeah?

Kathi Lipp (14:24)
Okay, Tonya, this may be

my favorite discovery so far of 2020. This may encompass 2024 and 2025. So I just did an AI search. How do I get lighting into my cupboard without rewiring things? And there is, and I’ll link it in the show notes, okay? You install a magnet on top of your cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (14:43)
Okay.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (14:53)
All right, and this magnet is the other side of the magnet of a light bar. Okay, it’s a light bar. So you can pull this light bar out, but it just slaps up there with a magnet. And you can recharge this light bar on a USB charger. So the same thing that you use to charge your cell phone, you can use this to recharge that bar. And here’s the beautiful thing, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (15:03)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:23)
it is motion activated. So.

Tonya Kubo (15:26)
So

you don’t have to worry about leaving it on.

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Right, it’s not a flip on flip off. It is when I open the cupboard, it flips on and when I close the cupboard, it turns off. And we’ve had this for about three months now and have not had to recharge it yet.

Tonya Kubo (15:44)
that is so nice because we have tap lights in our deep cabinets, but the problem is as they get left on and then they overheat.

Kathi Lipp (15:47)
Yes, yeah, right.

we don’t want that.

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
No, you do not want overheating. No, that’s a bad idea. So this with the motion activate. my gosh, this is brilliant. How’d you find him, Kathi? AI. It was AI.

Kathi Lipp (15:56)
No.

I just, AI, I just said, here’s the

problem, here’s the problem. And it said, have you tried this? I’m like, why no, I haven’t tried that. So I will link those. You can get them on Amazon. You can get them at Lowe’s. You can get them anywhere. They’re one, they are life-changing. Can I tell you, nothing makes me smile more these days than opening that cabinet and the light coming on after six years of it being a cave.

Tonya Kubo (16:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, well, that would make me smile. I’m going to smile the next time I’m at your house and I get to use it. If you find me in your kitchen just opening and closing the cabinet, you’ll know what I’m doing now.

Kathi Lipp (16:33)
Yes.

Yes. Yes.

I would

not blame you at all. I would not blame you at all.

Tonya Kubo (16:45)
Okay, so that has to be like the highlight of this episode for me personally, but there is more to the pots and pans area in a kitchen than just that. What are you doing it with bakeware?

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
Yeah, yes. Yes.

Yeah, so let’s talk about the infamous muffin tins and like little cookie sheets and things like that. got, and guys, we’re gonna link all of this in the podcast notes so you can go and check out exactly what we’re talking. Cause isn’t a podcast the best place to display storage organization, right? know, my audio is our best forms, yes. But we will put it in the show notes. This is just a wire wrap.

Tonya Kubo (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Why yes, yes it is. Show notes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)
that

is, it’s a little bit wider than like what you would use to organize papers. But I just have it all standing up and it’s easy to grab. And you can see what you have. So it’s just a simple wire organizer. But the main thing is you have to declutter what you’re not using because if you’re still are trying to organize chaos, it’s never going to happen.

Tonya Kubo (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:50)
But if you’re organizing what you actually use, it’s gonna be beautiful.

Tonya Kubo (17:55)
Yeah, well, and I like that idea because, with cookie sheets or baking sheets, I guess we call them because we don’t just put cookies on them. Muffin tins and such. Stacking them flat just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Kathi Lipp (18:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

It doesn’t

work, it doesn’t work. And this simple thing just saves me so much time and rummaging around. I’m no longer banging things around. I hate being frustrated. I hate being frustrated in the kitchen and this has solved a lot of that frustration.

Tonya Kubo (18:14)
Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, okay, so before we run out of time, you mentioned earlier about having a lids solution. Talk to me about pots, lids, all that good stuff.

Kathi Lipp (18:29)
Yeah.

Well, okay,

so this, after the light situation, this may be my favorite thing. This is, it’s hard to describe. It’s like a tower that is, has separate shelves that you can store your pots, your pans, and your lids on. Now, a lid solution for you, Tonya, because you don’t store your pots and pans like that, could just be that wire rack we talked about.

Tonya Kubo (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that’s

what I was thinking about. I was like, some people are gonna get that for baking sheets. I might be getting that for my lids.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yes.

Yes,

absolutely, absolutely. But this one, the one that I got, it just has different shelves jutting out from it. And I have got it all set up for my fry pans and things like that. And I just bought one for my pots, because I wanted to buy one to see, does this actually work for me? And Roger and I, who have very different organizational styles,

Tonya Kubo (19:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:33)
Like everything we’ve talked about here so far has worked for both of us. yeah, so that’s, talk about miracles. But it keeps your pots upright. You’re not scratching your pots and pans by stacking them inside. And let’s be honest, pots don’t stack nicely, you know, with the handles and stuff. So it makes it so much easier. The one thing I’m going to tell you though is before you order, measure.

Tonya Kubo (19:38)
nice.

They don’t. No.

Kathi Lipp (20:03)
You know, well, here’s the thing. When I went on Amazon to order this, it said it had a satisfaction ranking of like 4.7, but it said this is an often returned item. I’m like, well, if people are so satisfied, why are they returning it? Because it didn’t fit in their cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (20:05)
This sounds like the voice of experience.

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (20:30)
That

was my own sleuthing. So finally I’m getting smart. I’ve got one thing I bought for everybody at Christmas in 2023 were these mini measuring tapes. They look like dull measuring tapes, but they go out, I think either two or three feet and I keep one in my kitchen. And before I order something, I make sure that I can measure that space. And it makes such a difference.

Tonya Kubo (20:38)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

cool. Can we put that in the show notes too, Kathi? Okay. Measuring tape. I put Barbie measuring tape on my notes because I’ll know what that means. Okay. So let me recap really quickly because we are out of time, but you’re so you minimize by getting rid of the specialty items. You got rid of the duplicates and then your three tips in terms of organizing what was left is you got a light.

Kathi Lipp (21:02)
Yes, I will make a note to do that.

Yes, exactly, perfect. Yes, exactly.

guess.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)
that is rechargeable does not involve rewiring anything nor the investment that it would take for electrical systems like that. You got a bakeware rack so that you can vertically stack your cookie sheets, your muffin tins. Then you got a pot organizer, which I think the pot organizer is my favorite idea too, even though it doesn’t apply to my situation because I have had to get rid of really nice pots because they scratched.

Kathi Lipp (21:29)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

right, exactly.

Tonya Kubo (21:55)
They were too scratched up and I love

the idea of storing them in a way that keeps them protected like that. Is there anything else you would add for us today?

Kathi Lipp (22:01)
Yeah.

say that if you think you need everything that you have but there are some things that are iffy could you put those things into a storage container for like three months and see if you actually use them and if you’re not using them then that’s your sign to say it’s okay to give them away and also another thing to think about is

Tonya Kubo (22:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:35)
there are some libraries that will let you check out cake pans. So if cake pans are something that you are interested in, I love libraries these days. It’s not just about books anymore. You could go check out a Thomas the Tankin, or let’s be clear, let’s bring it for 2025, a bluey cake pan, right? That’s right. And so you could check that out.

Tonya Kubo (22:48)
I love libraries too.

Bluey cake pan baby.

Kathi Lipp (23:05)
and not have to store it in your house, which I think those are two tips about keeping some of that chaos out of your house. That’ll make it much easier. And by the way, Tonya, this is gonna be so much easier to clean. And you know, it’s.

Tonya Kubo (23:17)
What I was gonna

ask, like now that it is all organized, I think one of the issues I see from listeners who write in is keeping it that way. And so, you you brought up some good points is you’re not gonna restock with specialty cake pans if you can check your local library first. It’s easier to clean. Any recommendations when it comes to cleaning?

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yes.

I love a good handi-vac, I’m not gonna lie. That’s my favorite thing to do. And then if you are, I just, let’s keep it simple, just a rag. And I love the Method grapefruit. Have you ever smelled that? You may have smelled it at my house, yeah. Or somebody, yeah, I don’t like the taste of grapefruit, but the smell makes me so happy. And.

Tonya Kubo (23:42)
Okay. I love a good handiwork too.

Mmm, I do. I like a good grapefruit smell.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:05)
I don’t have to do it very often because we’re not putting dirty things in there, but you know, every once in a while, but just that handy vac going around there, guys, I want you to smile when you go to your pots and pans. And I didn’t know that was a space that could make me smile, but it really does.

Tonya Kubo (24:23)
my gosh, well hey, I think every part of your house, like you deserve for every part of your house to make you smile. And so what I would love to do is I would love to invite our listeners to join us in our Facebook group. That’s Kathi with an I dot link slash CFA. And I want to see their before and after transformations of their pots and pans cabinets. And of course, if there’s any questions that they might have. Anything else you want to add before we sign off, Kathi?

Kathi Lipp (24:29)
Hmm. Yes.

Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, we have this great download just step by steps and steps of how to you know Obviously my thought is listen to this podcast episode on repeat as you’re doing this because you’ll feel encouraged But we also have a download that you can go and get the step-by-steps to clean out that cupboard Yeah, all of that, but look at our show notes to go check out those Amazon links I think those will really encourage you and it’s going to provide solutions

Tonya Kubo (25:02)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:19)
for like, can’t I keep this organized? We got you, we got you.

Tonya Kubo (25:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. So check the show notes for the Amazon links, check the show notes for a link to the Facebook group and check the show notes for the download. That I think is especially important.

Kathi Lipp (25:35)
Perfect.

See you.

Tonya Kubo (25:43)
I don’t have the script for the close.

Kathi Lipp (25:45)
I’m

sorry, my bad. Well, friends, we, Tonya and I hope that we’ve given you some ideas and some encouragements to do that corner of your house that, you know, has maybe been driving you crazy, but there are solutions and we wanna take all of those hurdles out of the way when it comes to getting dinner on the table and this is a great place to start. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now.

Go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

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#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Listen Now

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of “Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women.” Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering actionable steps to create a more welcoming space and build connections within our communities. Whether you’re struggling with isolation due to clutter, life circumstances, or anything in between, this episode promises to equip you with practical, faith-driven insights to overcome loneliness. Don’t miss this valuable conversation that could inspire you to transform both your living space and your heart.

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As mentioned by Kathi:

Praying Through Loneliness – Kristen Strong

Jessica’s House

(in)courage – a DaySpring community

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Praying Through Loneliness – Kristen Strong

Jessica’s House

(in)courage – a DaySpring community

Clutter Free Resources:

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Meet Our Guest

Kristen Strong

Kristen Strong is an author and speaker who specializes in writing about friendship, belonging, and navigating life’s transitions. As a military spouse married to a U.S. Air Force veteran of 26 years’ service, she brings unique insight into building community and finding belonging despite frequent moves and changes. Kristen has authored several books, including “Praying Through Loneliness,” “Friends Are Family We Choose,” “When Change Finds You,” “Back Roads to Belonging,” and “Girl Meets Change.” Originally from Oklahoma, she now lives in Colorado Springs with her husband David, and they are parents to three adult children, including twins. A regular contributor to (in)courage, Kristen’s writing focuses on helping women build meaningful friendships and find hope through life’s various seasons of change.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:13)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps every day to live with less clutter and more life. And I have a very special treat here today. As many of you know, I write for the Hallmark Day Spring organization, Encourage, and this is one of my Encourage sisters. Let’s just say I’m one of her little sisters because she has been doing this a lot longer than I have.

Kristen (00:38)
you

Kathi Lipp (00:41)
Guys, it is Kristin Strong and she is the author of the new book, Praying Through Loneliness, a 90 day devotional for women. And when I say that she is the author, we’ll talk more about that. Kristin, welcome to the podcast. I’m so thrilled to have you on here.

Kristen (00:54)
you

thanks for having me, Kathy. I’m so happy to be here too.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
You know, it’s when we were originally talking about this book and I’m very excited because I got to be a part of this book and we’ll talk a little bit more about that later on. But, you know, I was like, I don’t know about praying through loneliness as necessarily a podcast episode just because I want to keep it centered on decluttering. My people show up for decluttering. I want to serve them for where they need. But the more I thought about it,

the more, you know, what kept coming to my mind is this phrase over and over again, clutter isn’t just about stuff, it’s about separation. And as I thought about it, you know, before I really went on my decluttering journey and got a little bit of freedom from all of this clutter, I remember it was very isolating. One of my, it’s a joke, but it’s not a joke, that 20 years ago,

If you showed up unexpectedly at my house for coffee, I would have served you on the front porch. I would often be embarrassed. Now, if I wanted to throw a party as long as I had two weeks notice and I killed myself, I wouldn’t say necessarily decluttering, but hiding all the clutter, I could do that. But I just found that…

Kristen (02:07)
you

Kathi Lipp (02:27)
I was in a place of shame and I was in a place of discouragement and fear that people would find out. And I think that a lot of people are in that circumstance that people don’t want to invite people over.

Kristen (02:31)
Mm.

you

Kathi Lipp (02:45)
or they don’t necessarily want their kids to invite friends over. Now, I’m guessing that clutter isn’t a struggle for you as much as it might be for some of my listeners, and maybe that’s not true, but I think we’ve all felt places of isolation and loneliness. What caused you to write this book? Where was the loneliness in your life showing up, Kristen?

Kristen (03:13)
Well, this may be surprising actually, the reason, how this book actually came to be is I had presented a book proposal, know, shopped it out to different publishers on a similar but different topic. the publisher really liked that. And actually that book is releasing in the spring.

Kathi Lipp (03:33)
Yeah.

Kristen (03:39)
But they, I thank you, thank you. But they, they had a, they’d already had like a couple of other books in a series of praying through serious praying through cancer, praying through infertility. And they really wanted to do a praying through loneliness. So as they read my proposal, they’re like, there’s really something here where we could.

Kathi Lipp (03:39)
Woohoo!

Mm, okay.

you

Kristen (04:01)
kind of also do a little pivot project that in line with these other two we’ve already done. And they asked me if I’d be interested in it. And you know, I’ve always really liked editing. And so I was like, yeah, I could just kind of get to get into the editing, you know, mucking the mire a little bit. And so that sounds, you know, like something I would like to do. And I felt at that point in my life really,

Kathi Lipp (04:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (04:28)
I’ve been a military wife for almost 20 years and certainly that brings up a recurring cycle of loneliness.

Kathi Lipp (04:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristen (04:38)
But I’d also lived in my kind of adopted hometown now of Colorado Springs, Colorado for over 10 years. And I started to understand how, you you can still, you can not move every whip stitch and still be real lonely. And so, you know, kind of bringing both of those into that, you know, as well as that follow on project I mentioned, you know, was, was something I was happy to talk about.

Kathi Lipp (04:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, I it’s interesting right because sometimes we can blame our loneliness on our circumstances but sometimes it is just The deeper truth in our life that we can be surrounded by a lot of people we can be a surrounded you know, we could have all the things that make it look like they should be fine and Inside still feeling that isolation and loneliness, you know

Kristen (05:21)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Kathi Lipp (05:37)
One one

of the interesting things about this book how many different contributors did you have to this book?

Kristen (05:43)
It was north of 45. yeah, yeah. So quite a few ended up contributing. You know, yeah, just the way it worked out. You know, I wanted to post a fewer contributors, but more pieces from each one. But then the way it kind of just worked out where people were, you know, were interested in just contributing one or two pieces. Then I was like, well, then that’s more voices. So that’s, you know, that’s great. So.

Kathi Lipp (05:46)
my goodness.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. We love to hear

more voices. I think that that’s really solid. Yeah, so the piece I wrote for this book actually was about chickens. thank you so much. You know, chickens will teach you a lot. And it’s so interesting because we had three old guard kind of chickens. We call them the OG, the original gangsters.

Kristen (06:13)
Mm-hmm.

It’s one of my favorites. I love it so much.

Hahaha.

Kathi Lipp (06:39)
And I didn’t

know this until I had chickens, but there really is a pecking order. There is a pecking order that the bigger battered chickens will let the lesser chickens know that they’re in trouble. And in this particular group, we had three old guard, and then we had Rocky and Bullwinkle, and Rocky was the smallest and the one who got picked on the most. And so when it was time to open up the coop, the three big girls would go,

Kristen (06:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:08)
Into the run, you know where they could see everything and they they wanted to be the first out the door when I let them out so that they could go, you know, see if there were worms or see if there was a new blade of grass and Bullwinkle would go out with them too. But when the door would open Bullwinkle would go back into the coop and let Rocky know you’re you’re okay. It’s okay to come out and

Kristen (07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:37)
I mean, I sit here and I think about it and it brings me to tears because I think about the way that I’ve needed some bullwinkles in my life to come back and say, you’re gonna be okay. I’m here with you. I’m not leaving you alone. I think in so many of my friends’ lives, whether they’ve been going through a divorce, whether they have

Kristen (07:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:06)
a medical diagnosis that has made them feel isolated, or in the case of many of the people who are listening here today, we just need somebody to tell us that we’re gonna be okay. And I wonder what you read from all those contributors or what you, first of all, if you’re the bullwinkle, if you’re the one who’s wanting to let somebody know they’re going to be okay,

Kristen (08:19)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)
How do you help the people who are struggling with isolation in your life? Maybe you’re not struggling, but you have a friend who’s going through a tough time. What did you learn from reading all these essays that might be able to help somebody who’s listening today, who wants to help that person who’s feeling isolated because of their clutter or because of something else going on in their lives?

Kristen (08:42)
Mm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, I think one of the great things I learned was what you shared, Kathy. You talked about the one more question, you know, just taking that time, you know, you you might ask somebody, well, how’s it going? And they’re like, doing OK. But you know how sometimes you can just sense like they’re saying they’re OK, but none of what I’m seeing is matching what they’re saying, you know. And so just I love the idea. And I’ve thought of that so many times since reading your piece about

Kathi Lipp (09:20)
Right, right.

Kristen (09:29)
just asking one more question, like even just, are you sure like it’s going okay, you know? And I just think that gives people that extra opportunity, that permission really, you know, cause you know, you don’t want to be a burden to people. And sometimes you think like, they don’t have time right now or they got a lot going on. And so I, you know, I’ll save it for another time. But when you ask, when you take a minute to go, are you sure everything’s going okay or…

Kathi Lipp (09:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (09:57)
you know, just probing a smidge deeper. It does a lot to give somebody that permission to feel they can share. And I would say that’s the other thing I learned is it’s not just, or had maybe re, I relearned perhaps, that it’s not just taking the time to ask those one more questions or to check in on your people. You know, send a little text, you know.

Kathi Lipp (10:13)
Mm-hmm.

Kristen (10:22)
take the time to tell them happy birthday when you remember things like that. But also then when you are like asking the one more question, it’s incumbent on the person on the receiving end to also be like, okay, I’m gonna, I just need to be vulnerable and share and not just refuse to do that. You know, it’s kind of both parts I think are really, really important in helping those.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
Right.

Right.

Kristen (10:47)
you know, folks that are mitigating loneliness or going through a hard season of loneliness.

Kathi Lipp (10:53)
You know, it’s so interesting. I love how

God lines things up. We had our neighbor lost her husband three months ago, very unexpectedly, very quickly with cancer. And we had asked her to come over for dinner and she said, I’m not ready. And we said, we totally get it. And then she said, I think I’m ready. And so it was planned for Monday, you know, last Monday.

Kristen (11:03)
Mmm.

Mm. Ugh.

Kathi Lipp (11:22)
Well, the week before, I was doing a day-long coaching with two women who were part of a, are, one was the founder of Jessica’s House, which helps people in grief. And as we were going through the coaching, we were talking about what their audience’s fears are. And I’m like, let me tell you my fear.

Kristen (11:38)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:47)
I fear I’m going to say something stupid. I’ve got this woman coming to dinner on Monday and she said, you know, here’s something to say because instead of asking, how are you doing? The example you used was perfect. But like when you know somebody is going through grief, instead of saying, how are you doing? You just say, I’m so glad you’re here or I’m so glad.

Kristen (12:04)
Right, right.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:15)
that I get to spend time with you tonight. And it was, it got, and then she said, the other thing to do is to mirror the person in front of you. So if she’s crying, it’s okay to cry. But if she is telling stories about the person she loves, and she said, go with that, ask, how did you guys meet? How, you know, where were you living when you met?

Kristen (12:27)
Mmm.

Mmmmm

Kathi Lipp (12:43)
And it gave me ways to get connected and to bridge that awkwardness that I think so many of us, when we know somebody maybe is hurting or is maybe feeling isolated because of circumstances, I love that God lined that up for the Thursday before the Monday. And I got to go in with a game plan. And that’s what I feel like so much of your book is, is people who have said, I have been lonely, so.

Kristen (12:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (13:12)
this is what I needed and I’ve had people in my life and this is how I reached out. So here’s what I wanna do. We’re gonna take a quick break and we’re gonna come back and I wanna talk about when you are that person is isolated. How do you take those next steps? So we’ll be back with Kristen Strong in just a moment.

Kristen (13:29)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (13:38)
Okay, friends, we talked about if you are the person who’s reaching back, if you’re the bullwinkle in the situation, you’re going back into the chicken coop and saying, it’s okay, Rocky, you can come out, they’re not going to terrorize you. But what if you’re the one who’s feeling isolated? It’s hard to be around people, especially, let’s talk about in the aspect of clutter, if you are feeling like what, so I want to give a couple of suggestions and then Kristen, I’m going to ask for a couple of suggestions.

Kristen (13:51)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:07)
from you. So one thing is, I would love to see you create one clutter free space. Your house does not have to be perfect. In fact, perfect makes people uneasy. It really does. But is there a little space in your house? Could it be two chairs at the dining room table? Could it be one couch in your living room that has a little coffee table there?

Kristen (14:14)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:34)
and you could just bring out some coffee. And you know what? If it needs to be your front porch right now, let it be the front porch. Unless you’re in one of those cold places in the United States right now. But if you’re saying my clutter feels ice laying, then I’m gonna ask you, you know what? Get a gift card to Starbucks and say, you know, I’ve got this $20 gift card to Starbucks. I would love to share it with you. Can we meet at the one over on Bollinger and Miller?

Kristen (14:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:03)
You know, set

up a space. If you’re feeling isolated and you’re feeling like, I don’t even know if I reach out, I’m scared to reach out because I wonder if I’ll be rejected. How do you start to get brave enough to do that, Kristen? Or what is one step that somebody who is feeling isolated could take?

Kristen (15:20)
Mm-hmm.

I think, well, can I give like a tiny story with it? So, and I wrote about this in that subsequent project I mentioned, but when I was a newer military wife, I had two young, I had twin, I don’t know, they must’ve been two year olds at the time. And we lived on base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. when you, listen, when you live on base, like picture the most un…

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Yes, please. I would love it.

Kristen (15:51)
sexy housing, know, it’s like, you know, it’s like wall to wall linoleum and there’s no carpet even there’s just like the linoleum floors that are for mica cabinets. Anyway, I invited our some of the group in the neighborhood I was we were getting to know I invited them over for dinner. And then I panicked to the day before I was like,

Kathi Lipp (15:53)
Right. Yeah.

Kristen (16:14)
my house is not up to snuff for company. So I asked the girl I was the most close with, Rebecca, we’re still good friends today, but I asked Rebecca, I said, if I bring all the food over, can you just have everybody at your house? I essentially invited, you know, with kids, like 25 people to her house. And so she graciously said yes, but you know.

Kathi Lipp (16:18)
you

Yeah. my goodness.

Kristen (16:41)
like I really put her on the spot there and just realized like that was not a friend move right there. Especially in we all have the same house. like it was extra silly of me. But I say all that to say that I get like being scared to invite folks over. And I just think that like anything in life, if the more you practice it, the more you get successful at it. And, you know, I there I

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (17:10)
I used to have this quote on our refrigerator and I think it was by I think maybe Irma Bombeck, but it said like, if you’re coming to see me, come on over. If you’re coming to see my house, call ahead, you know, and I just think, you know, I think most folks are coming to see you. It’s like you alluded to, Kathy, you know, I don’t want to go to a museum for dinner. I’m not going to relax. I’m going to be real tense the whole time. But I want, yeah, I I feel like a little bit of mess just

Kathi Lipp (17:22)
Right.

Right. Yes.

Kristen (17:38)
makes me like relax more and know that, you know, people don’t care.

Kathi Lipp (17:41)
Right.

especially if you’re bringing kids or, you know, it’s going to be, and I always think, you know, find that one spot in your house. Maybe it’s your backyard. Maybe it’s the kitchen table where you can just lean in and connect because here’s what I know. If you’re feeling lonely, there are other people around you who are feeling that same thing.

Kristen (17:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:07)
and

so desperately needs somebody to reach out. And so, yeah, it doesn’t have to be in your house. It could be, let’s meet at the park and I’ll pack a picnic lunch for the rest of us. Do you have, right? It doesn’t have to be in your home, but at the same time, maybe saying, okay, if I can get my living room to where I know that nobody’s gonna sit on anything sharp, we’re good to go. Like, you know, that’s…

Kristen (18:12)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

absolutely.

Yeah!

Kathi Lipp (18:36)
The baseline, that’s the baseline. What have you discovered about loneliness that you didn’t know before this project?

Kristen (18:38)
Yeah.

I think just how many different kinds of loneliness there are before this project. You know, and even when the publisher and I were going over it,

Kathi Lipp (18:51)
Hmm

Kristen (18:58)
it was very loneliness in terms of friendship, which is certainly a big valid kind of loneliness. But when I started talking with authors and they’re describing loneliness through chronic illness or loneliness because a close loved one died, the loneliness of looking different, the loneliness of being an empty nester, there’s just so many very, there’s so many.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (19:25)
kinds of loneliness. And the interesting thing is, is though we all experience loneliness, you know, often in different ways, the pain in the midst of it is the same. So then the help you can get from it, even if you’re reading a devotional in the book that, you know, you may not identify with what the author exactly went through, you will glean a lot from the takeaways that she offers.

Kathi Lipp (19:36)
Mmm, yeah.

You know, we’re talking a lot about loneliness and some very actionable steps. I really like practical solutions. But prayer is part of this as well. And, you know, for me, the prayer, what prayer does is even if I’m not being fully honest with anybody else, maybe I’m not even being honest 100 % with my husband because I don’t want him to carry my burden.

I don’t want my mom to carry my burden, but I can always be fully authentic with God and say, this is where my pain’s coming from. And I love that God is the God of creativity and may come up with solutions that I wouldn’t even think to broach. How has prayer broken that stronghold of loneliness in your life?

Kristen (20:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

think because it really does show me how when you have nobody else around to help with to help just to help you feel less lonely when you have nobody else around God’s presence is enough and you can never get to that point of knowing it’s enough unless you know he’s he’s

the only one you really have. And I don’t mean to say that. I don’t mean to exaggerate. know, you know, Corey, Corey Tinboom said in when she was in the concentration camp, you never know that Jesus is all you need until Jesus is all you have. I’ve never been that lonely. Thank you. Thanks the good Lord. But, but I have had times where, and a story I write about in the book where I was worried I was having a miscarriage. My husband,

Kathi Lipp (21:14)
Yeah. No.

No, I have not either. Right.

Kristen (21:41)
was the nature of his job was unreachable at the time. I’m going to the ER by myself, know, no family around, no friends that I feel like, you know, I can call it like about 10, 11 PM when that happened. So, you know, like I have had times when I’ve been lonely and, and yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

That is a depths of loneliness that not

everybody has ever experienced.

Kristen (22:03)
Yeah, and so but I also experienced the depth of Jesus’s presence in that moment, you know when That I wouldn’t have necessarily experienced if if I’d had a posse of people around me, you know,

Kathi Lipp (22:08)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So guys,

if you are feeling that bitterness of loneliness and guys, I have been there, you I lived overseas. didn’t there was nobody who who, you know, I barely had people who spoke the same language as me because I didn’t know their language. There is loneliness there. But also, I know that when we experience that loneliness, God

Kristen (22:29)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (22:47)
can meet us in that space and that place. And if you want to hear the stories of 40 plus other women who have been in that place and how God and others have met them, praying through loneliness, a 90 day devotional for women. Kristen, thanks so much for being on Clutter Free Academy.

Kristen (23:08)
thank you for having me. I love what you’re doing here, you and your community, and I’m grateful for you, Kathy.

Kathi Lipp (23:14)
My community is the best community. I mean, I’m not comparing, but I’m just going to say they really are the best human beings and friends. If you want to pick up this book for yourself or maybe for somebody you love, available. We’ll put the link in the show notes, but it’s available everywhere. You want to buy books. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathy Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Kristen (23:15)
You

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Mar 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#655 Finding Grace in Your Imperfect Space: A Conversation with Hilary Bernstein

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Feb 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#655 Finding Grace in Your Imperfect Space: A Conversation with Hilary Bernstein

Listen Now

Hey there, friend!

Are you caught in the tension between wanting a perfect home and feeling overwhelmed by the impossibility of achieving it? In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Hilary Bernstein, author of “The Tension of Tidy,” to explore the connection between perfectionism and our struggle with clutter.

Learn why perfectionists often have the hardest time maintaining an organized home and discover practical strategies for breaking free from the paralysis of perfectionism. Hilary shares insights about finding God’s grace in our imperfect spaces and offers hope for those caught between Pinterest-perfect expectations and real-life limitations.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

– Why perfectionism often leads to cluttered spaces

– How to celebrate small wins in home management

– Practical first steps for overwhelmed perfectionists

– Biblical perspective on imperfect spaces

– Permission to invite people into your imperfect home

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

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Links Mentioned:

Hilary Bernstein’s book “The Tension of Tidy“
Hilary Bernstein’s website

Clutter Free Resources:

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Meet Our Guest

Hilary Bernstein

Hilary Bernstein is the women’s ministry director at The Chapel in Green, Ohio, where she brings a wealth of experience from her roles as a blogger, newspaper editor, and columnist. A prolific author, Bernstein, has recently published Prayerful Living and twelve other impactful devotional books. More information can be found at hilarybernstein.com.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the Clutter-Free queen. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, we don’t often do top 10 lists, but we’re doing a top 10 list today. I, so this is a two-parter. The first part is 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)
Hey Kathi

Kathi Lipp (00:40)
And next week, we’re going to talk about 10 things I do now that I live clutter free. And so I want to talk to you about how your life has changed, the things that you have stopped. And I just realized I told you we were going to do exactly the opposite podcast, but you know what? We’re we’re just fine. We’re just rolling with it. You know, we’re going to live in the moment here. And so I’m going to get us kicked off because I I think

Tonya Kubo (00:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:10)
People would not recognize my life From before clutter free now clutter free has not always I did not say hey I’m gonna start something called clutter free and now I’m gonna change my life like I changed my life and Then I thought I’m not the only one like this I wrote a book called clutter free and then I met my friend Tonya Kubo who seemed like the most put-together human being on the planet, but told me no

Tonya Kubo (01:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:39)
her life was a mess too, and we started to figure all this stuff out together. And what a gift that was because as much as the book helped people, I know that our Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life and this podcast have helped just exponentially more people. I really, people don’t believe that I was cluttery at one point. And I’m like, no, I’m still cluttery at some points, but.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

still cluttering. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)
I’m not afraid

to invite you into my house. So I wanted to talk about what are some key things that look different now than they did when I was clutter free. number one, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. And this has been a huge shift for me because I would always think as I’ve…

Tonya Kubo (02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:32)
pretty much always been a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of person and who actually works nine to five. Let’s be clear, it’s eight to six. But I’ve pretty much been that person my whole life and I was just so busy during the week that I’m like, I’m just gonna save all this up for the weekends. And I don’t live like that anymore. Like as I am leaving a room, I’m like, are there things I can grab to throw away, to put away, to declutter?

Tonya Kubo (02:39)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:00)
Is that similar for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:03)
Yeah, I mean, I still think, you know, because my kids are younger, right? Like our house is always in some state of shambles, but you know, little things that I used to on Fridays clean off my desk, for instance. And now it’s just at the end of the day, right? It just is so much easier to take like a handful of stuff at the end of each day than to have to make multiple trips every Friday.

Kathi Lipp (03:06)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It makes such a difference, right? Because I don’t know, there’s just something about like, I’ve saved this up for an entire week. You know, instead of just saying, okay, a little bit of time, a little bit of time, my brain has shifted into small amounts of decluttering instead of huge mountains of decluttering. Okay, so that’s number one. Tonya, we’re going back and forth. Tonya, what’s number two?

Tonya Kubo (03:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (03:54)
something that you don’t do now that you live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (03:57)
Okay, so this might seem silly, but I genuinely used to think unloading the dishwasher took 30 minutes and now I realize it takes about three and a half. So I don’t put off unloading the dishwasher till the weekend. Like seriously, I made it into such a big job in my head and I don’t need more.

Kathi Lipp (04:11)
Right?

Yeah, yes,

I feel like doing the dishes could take a half hour if you’ve got a lot of dishes piled up if you have things that need to be soaked like, you know, deep, deep scrub. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:24)
Right, but I didn’t say doing the dishes, Kathi. I just

said unload the dishwasher.

Kathi Lipp (04:30)
just thinking maybe that’s why your brain was playing tricks on you and here’s what I know is when you when you unload the dishes here’s the magical thing it’s easier to load the dishes I know that seems like it should be obvious but our cluttery people will get that

Tonya Kubo (04:42)
Right.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Yeah, okay. Number three, I don’t stand next to the gas pump while it’s filling up. I, okay, so I think a lot of our cluttering friends will get this. I went, those small moments, like just like you were talking about with the microwave, I unload the dishwasher in the two and a half minutes that my, or I at least get it started in the two and a half minutes that my oatmeal is cooking.

Tonya Kubo (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:18)
And

so now I am married to somebody who does quiet contemplation while his coffee is warming up. And I’m like, you know what, we just live different lives. while I’m pumping my gas, I clean out the car. I just grab a few things. I throw them into the garbage. I feel like that’s free garbage. Garbage is such a big deal up here.

Tonya Kubo (05:24)
Hahaha

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

it is free garbage. I am right there with you.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)
It makes me so happy. I can’t even stand it. Yeah, I’m never somebody who would bring garbage from my house to throw away. I’ve heard of people doing that. I know. But if I’ve got a McDonald’s cup, that that’s going in the garbage while I’m pumping. It is I’m doing all the things and even like our truck takes a long time to fill up. I have been known to we have a like a hand vac in the truck.

Tonya Kubo (05:53)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)
and I’ve been known to like vacuum things out while I’m doing, yeah, it makes me so happy I can’t even stand it. Okay, but I’m doing, what the core concept behind that is it just takes a moment to make a small difference. And like you just said with the unloading dishwasher and even with the, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. If I can do a little bit each day, man, the weekends can be for.

Tonya Kubo (06:17)
Nice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:42)
fun or bigger projects or things like that. Okay, number four, Tonya, what’s something that you don’t do now that you’re living clutter free?

Tonya Kubo (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t go shopping when I’m tired, hungry, or frustrated.

Kathi Lipp (06:56)
That’s my favorite time to go shopping. Okay, tell me more. Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
It’s everybody’s favorite time to go shopping.

Right. But I mean, something that I learned early on in my clutter free journey is that when I’m tired, I’m hungry or I’m frustrated, my tolerance, like my my impulse control is lower and my desire to soothe is higher. And so I feel like everything I see at the store is going to make me feel better. And it is not.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)
Yeah.

Mmm, good.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:26)
to make me feel better. I am still going to leave the store tired, hungry, and frustrated so I may as well just solve those problems before I go.

Kathi Lipp (07:33)
Okay, can I tell you how I’m even worse at this and it’s something I need to correct in my own life. So I go to the store, which is a chore, right? That is an errand. Right. And I feel like because I have done that, even when I was living in San Jose and things were like five minutes, like, look at me checking things off of my list. I deserve a little treat, a little treaty treat. Can we just say that shopping and Target

Tonya Kubo (07:42)
Yeah, it’s a jaunt for you. It’s a jaunt.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (08:02)
It’s so much better when you have Starbucks. And so like this is the thinking I have to unpack all the time in my cluttery journey. it just, makes a difference. It makes a difference when you say, and I just, but I try not to go, I pack snacks now in our car so that we are not so tempted.

Tonya Kubo (08:05)
I’m sure it is, I’m sure it is.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)
Like it’s okay every once in a while to go to Starbucks, but you don’t get Starbucks every time you leave the house. Yes, okay. And so tired, hungry, frustrated will lead you to, and here’s the other part of that that I think is you’re so wise because I’ll just throw things in my cart and I’ll say I’ll return them later if I’m frustrated. Like, you know, don’t go shopping for jeans when you’re tired, frustrated or hungry. That’s just the meanest thing you could do to yourself.

Tonya Kubo (08:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

No.

Kathi Lipp (09:00)
but then I’ll buy all the jeans and then I’m like, now I have to take them back. And then like, I already have a return right now of a shirt and it’s, we’re recording this around Christmas time. And I’m like, the last thing I want to do on earth is go into a store and return a shirt. Like I can’t think of anything I want to do less. Okay. Number five, I don’t leave a room without scanning the room. So.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi Lipp (09:27)
What that means is I don’t, I don’t just walk into another room. I will walk into another room, but I will grab the dish that’s on my desk. I will grab the shirt that needs to be returned. Can you tell I’m going through stuff? I will grab the jacket that needs to be hung downstairs. And here’s why I think that this matters. Even if I’m just going into Roger’s office, which is still on the top of the floor.

I’ll move those things to the top of the stairs so that I used to think if I’m gonna do something, I need to do it all the way. And no, I just need to push it forward. I need to push that chore forward. And that makes a huge difference. It’s like, even if I can’t unload the entire dishwasher while my oatmeal is cooking, I’m pushing it forward enough and I’m yelling up to Roger,

Tonya Kubo (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
The dishes are clean, I’m just not done yet. And so he knows not to put dirty dishes in there. But if you can push it forward, then the next time you’re reheating your coffee, you can push it forward another minute and you might get it done. And so scanning a room, seeing what can I push into place? Because here’s what I know, if I leave it all until I have time, then I’m gonna spend half a day going up and down the stairs. And that sounds like my worst nightmare, I hate that stuff.

Tonya Kubo (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (10:56)
Yeah, okay. So we have gone through our top five. We’re gonna take a quick break, pay some bills. We’re gonna come back and Tonya is gonna talk about how she doesn’t apologize. I can’t wait to hear about how you do this. Teach me, Obi-Wan. We’ll be right back. Okay, guys, we are back with 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter free. So Tonya, you say you don’t apologize. For what?

Tonya Kubo (11:23)
I

apologize for the condition of my house.

Kathi Lipp (11:26)
So tell me more. Tell me how I can get brave and be really like, just come on in.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)
well, just stop doing it. I mean, that’s how I did it, right? It was like a cold turkey. Like, I think there was a bit of a transition of where I would say, I probably should apologize for the state of my house, but I won’t. But I just don’t. And, you know, some people come in and say stuff and some people don’t, and I don’t really care. Because what I realize is we all have a different standard. You know, I used to apologize. And I realized that a lot of people

Kathi Lipp (11:37)
wow.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:03)
Like, first of all, I would apologize after spending hours doing a crisis clean because I knew other people would come in and like, and feel like my house was in complete disarray. And I was like, why am I acting like I didn’t just kill myself to make this house look nicer? And then I got to where, you know what? What do I care? mean, people come in, sometimes people are like, wow, you must be really busy. I am. That’s not untrue. I am really busy.

Kathi Lipp (12:13)
Mmm.

Right, right.

It’s a great friend test, right? Can we hang? Can we hang? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I’m just

like, there’s nothing they could say that’s probably not true to some degree. And I’ve had like repair guys come in, it’s funny, is because the repair guys will come in and our front room doesn’t have flooring. We tore up the flooring and then building costs went up so we have not replaced the flooring. And they’ll go to put the booties on them like, yeah, that’s cute. You don’t have to do that here. And they’ll look around and they’re like, okay.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)
All right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:01)
Every now and then they’ll say, are you sure? Like, yeah, no, we’re good here.

Kathi Lipp (13:06)
Yeah.

Well, it’s so true. Our lives are all in transition, right? And when you have kids, the amount of day-to-day clutter goes up exponentially. Or maybe you’re in the midst of a big project. You know, I’ll never forget during the launch of Clutter Free, book, the state my house was in. It was like, we can’t take any pictures. And just recently,

Tonya Kubo (13:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:35)
Tenneil who manages our social media said, Kathi, can we get a video of you pushing in a chair? And right now we’re in Christmas crazies. I’m like, it would take me 45 minutes to get to a place to push in a chair. Right, it’s, yeah, because there’s all the fudge making supplies right there, yeah. So are you really, are you using marshmallow fluff in it?

Tonya Kubo (13:45)
No. To push in the chair. You’re like, “‘Cause I can’t get to the chair to push it in.”

Yes, I’m making fudge this weekend too. Anyway, I am.

I am using marshmallow fluff in it. I took a whole class on how to make fudge using marshmallow fluff. It was fun.

Kathi Lipp (14:05)
I saw that I saw that well,

I saw the fudge class. I didn’t know that there was the marshmallow fluff. Yeah, I’m very excited I’m just using a recipe off the internet But as you know, we live next to not next to you know half I don’t know 20 minutes away from a gourmet chocolate shop, which is the only Yeah, they’re a whiner They ship they’re so good but also let’s just say their fudge has gourmet prices and I’m like

Tonya Kubo (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Little John’s, they ship. Little John’s, you should order from Little John’s.

Yes

Kathi Lipp (14:35)
How much would it cost for me to do this? And Roger’s like, we can buy their other stuff. We never have to buy fudge again. And I was like, I’m an indentured fudge servant now. Got it. Okay. Okay. You know what? It’s good. Hey, speaking of fudge, number seven, I don’t buy all the gear for hobbies unless I have a pattern of doing the hobby. Because here’s what I’ve discovered, Tonya. You know what my hobby is? Buying the stuff for hobbies.

Tonya Kubo (14:44)
Yes, I am too.

Mmm.

I

was gonna say preparing to have a hobby.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)
So here’s what I said, know, like one of the recipes that I am preparing right now called for a candy thermometer. And I’m like, ugh.

Tonya Kubo (15:17)
I need that for the fudge recipe with the marshmallow fluff. You need a candy thermometer.

Kathi Lipp (15:20)
Okay, so here’s what I told

myself if I prepare three recipes right now that don’t require the the thermometer if I if I prepare these three Christmas gift II things then I am allowed to buy a Candy thermometer and I got one by the way Michaels has 30 % off coupons for a while now. So go check that out I got the I think it’s the Wilson one but

Tonya Kubo (15:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ew.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)
I cannot tell you how many hobbies I’ve invested in and had to keep that stuff because I invest I told myself I’ve invested so heavily I need to keep all this stuff. It just it doesn’t make sense and it’s not the right thing. So I no longer I need to have a pattern of Can I start this hobby with stuff I have or can I start this hobby for less than ten dollars? And if I find that I really enjoy it

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Then I will keep going but I am NOT going to go I’ll just say my history is buying at a professional level and performing at an amateur level like it’s not good

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
I

know that feeling though. If I have the same paints and brushes that Bob Ross has, I will make the same pictures that Bob Ross made.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)
Right.

Right, right.

And you know, our friend Cheri Gregory, friend of the podcast, Cheri Gregory calls it buying to become and I have done that for years and years. Okay, Tonya, number eight.

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Yeah.

Okay, I kind of stole from you because you said that you scan a room before you leave. Before I go to bed, I make a round through the house specifically for dirty dishes. And here’s my, if I made a round through my house for decluttering, I would never make it to bed. But I can make a pass through my teeny tiny house just for dirty dishes in about 25 minutes. And it makes my life so much easier that

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

so smart.

No, of course not.

Hmm

Tonya Kubo (17:24)
Like, know, because all run into bulls, where are all the bulls? The bulls are in the kids’ room underneath the bed. Why are they underneath the bed? I actually can’t answer that question, but that is where I find them.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Okay, Tonya, we are missing a bowl right now. There are just two of us. There are just two of us. This giant glass bowl, we cannot find. Is it under Lily’s bed? That’s my question now.

Tonya Kubo (17:36)
Maybe it’s under my bed!

It’s probably under Lily’s bed, and this is the worst of it, right? Is the way that Abby’s bed works, it sits lower to the ground. So Abby shoves stuff underneath Lily’s bed too. It’s not even all Lily’s fault.

Kathi Lipp (17:52)
Ugh.

Poor Lily. I’m sorry Lily. I did not mean to throw you under the bus bus or the bed Okay, so you do so what 25 minutes that seems like a long time so break that down for me Really okay

Tonya Kubo (18:13)
It’s a lot of dishes in my kid’s room and a lot of

dishes by Mr. Kubo’s desk. So it’s two trips. Two to three trips from the girl’s room, two trips from Brian’s desk and then

Kathi Lipp (18:20)
Got it. So you’re having to make multiple trips. Got it. Okay. And then

And and you’re

loading you’re soaking all that. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay Okay, that makes total sense. And I think doing doing a round of dishes I really feel like when everything else in your life falls apart the two things that you need to stay on top of are dishes and laundry because Mm-hmm. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (18:49)
Yes and I will say just really quickly that 25 minutes

does include a good five minute temper tantrum of my gosh what is growing in this thing.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)
I love it. Yeah, the the the Dishes and laundry if you stay on top of those like I don’t care how crunchy your kitchen floor gets I don’t care, you know at the I would say the third thing but this doesn’t have to be done as Much is staying on top of bills. Those are the important things that if you fall behind on them It’s going to be super painful to recover from them

Tonya Kubo (19:01)
That’s in there too.

No.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:25)
But if you can stay on top of those three things, it takes almost the same amount of energy to mop the floor when it’s been a week or five weeks. Like, I don’t want you to have to go five weeks, but if you need to in a crisis, you can. And yeah, and also stay on top of your garbage and recycling. number nine. This is my last thing of things I don’t do now that I live clutter free.

Tonya Kubo (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:55)
Okay, I try not to I’m still working through this but I’m much better than I used to be I don’t compare my stuff to my friends stuff so Or stuff on social media. There is always a new thing That would make my life two percent easier or two percent better Not not my entire life if something made my entire life two percent better you bet I’m going to invest in that but like

Tonya Kubo (20:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:25)
Let’s say, know, my, my robot vacuum, there are now robot vacuums that you can control remotely. Like I could be at my mom’s house and now I could get that doesn’t make my life better enough to upgrade my robot. Like my robots fine. We get along. We, she does what she needs to do. I’m sorry. It’s normally a he. I don’t know why I said she, cause I like for all my domestic labor to be he’s.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)
Because I just think that’s fair But I Just because somebody else has something that has made their life Infamates Lee better. It doesn’t mean that I need to upgrade it. I I try when I see you wearing a cute sweater I’m not going to say you know what? need that cute sweater. I’m gonna I’m one of things I’m trying to do is go into my own closet

Tonya Kubo (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:22)
and see

my own cute sweaters and the things that make me happy. So I’m trying really hard to reframe what my friends have. And also that can be a form of jealousy. I can just say, you know what? I’m really happy that Tonya has that sweater. I think she looks great in it. She’s having fun with it. And it makes me happy to see her in it. And it doesn’t have to be, I don’t have to own it for it to bring me happiness. So trying to stay out of that comparison trap.

Tonya Kubo (21:33)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)
And I’m sure when you go into people’s houses that have floors, that can be hard.

Tonya Kubo (21:57)
I do have floor envy right now, I’m not gonna lie. If you’ve got luxury vinyl plank, I’m eyeballing your floors, let me tell ya.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)
I you do.

And I do have that upstairs and I wrestled over that decision for about two years And I’m so glad we pulled the trigger It’s so painful to get flooring done just because of all the moving and shifting and all that kind of stuff Okay, Tonya round out our list. Give us number ten. All right

Tonya Kubo (22:09)
Yeah, no.

It is.

My cluttery peeps will get this. I no longer gain comfort or security from having full shelves, full drawers, etc.

Kathi Lipp (22:33)
yeah, space scares us, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)
Space is scary because space is scarcity and lack and my gosh what

if I don’t have enough. But if things are full even if they’re full of stuff that you haven’t worn in 22 years you believe you have enough clothes if for some reason they stopped making all clothing.

Kathi Lipp (22:48)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Tonya, this is so interesting. A number of people on TikTok and other apps are doing a no buy 2025, right? And the conventional wisdom is declutter your closet so you can see what you have. And then, so you know what you have, because it is, it’s easier to see what you have when you have less stuff in your closet.

Tonya Kubo (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
But I heard one woman, I thought this was so interesting. And I’m just gonna throw this out there for your reaction. She goes, I am not decluttering before my 2025. Because when I declutter, I feel like there is empty space. And I feel this urge to fill that space with shopping, with thrifting, with all these other things. So what she is doing is she is.

Tonya Kubo (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:50)
putting some of her clothes into another closet, including clothes she likes, so that she will, she remember, I’ve got more stuff. I don’t know, how does that hit you? I thought it was really interesting. Really.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I have a friend who does that actually. she has,

yeah, so she boxes up all of her extra stuff, even if it’s in the current season. And she has it all in like the rafters of her garage. But whenever she’s like, I wanna go shopping, she just goes and she takes a box down and she trades out pieces.

Kathi Lipp (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I think it’s really interesting. And so I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I’m going to try the other closet boxing because yeah, when I pull out all my winter stuff, I’m so happy. I’m like, I never need to go shopping again. And then after about two weeks, I’m like, you know, people are really into these green grandpa sweaters and like, okay, Kathi, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Tonya Kubo (24:50)
Yeah,

see, and I’m the person, I want all of my clothing to be able to fit in this much of my closet. Like, I don’t wanna ever change anything out. I don’t wanna work that hard. I’m just so, like, I don’t wanna say lazy, but really it’s just like, that is just something that takes such a high level of perceived energy for me that I’m like, I’m good.

Kathi Lipp (24:56)
Yes, you.

Yeah.

Okay, see, even within our Cluttery community, we all have our own little quirks. And that’s why it’s okay for you to forge your own path, but think about the wisdom that will get you to the next space in your Clutter-free journey. I hope one of these has inspired you today. Tonya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (25:18)
We do.

Thanks for having me.

Kathi Lipp (25:37)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you always wanted to live.

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#654 Declutter Your Life: 100 Spaces, 15 Minutes Each

by Roger Lipp | Jan 28, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#654 Declutter Your Life: 100 Spaces, 15 Minutes Each

Listen Now

Hey there, friend!

In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo help listeners kick off 2025 with a practical plan for a clutter-free home. Kathi shares her personal goal of decluttering 100 spaces in her house this year and how she’s breaking it down into manageable, 15-minute tasks.

Tonya adds her insights on avoiding overwhelm and tailoring the process to fit your unique spaces and needs. Whether you prefer a printable checklist or an editable spreadsheet, this episode provides actionable tools and encouragement to get started. Tune in to learn why small steps lead to big results and how to find hidden peace in your home.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

100 Spaces Checklist PDF

Editable Spreadsheet Version

Wallpaper Perforator
Disclosure: This link is an affiliate link, which means if you make a purchase through it, we may earn a small commission at no additional cost to you. Thank you for supporting our work!

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the Clutter-Free queen. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, we don’t often do top 10 lists, but we’re doing a top 10 list today. I, so this is a two-parter. The first part is 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)
Hey Kathi

Kathi Lipp (00:40)
And next week, we’re going to talk about 10 things I do now that I live clutter free. And so I want to talk to you about how your life has changed, the things that you have stopped. And I just realized I told you we were going to do exactly the opposite podcast, but you know what? We’re we’re just fine. We’re just rolling with it. You know, we’re going to live in the moment here. And so I’m going to get us kicked off because I I think

Tonya Kubo (00:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:10)
People would not recognize my life From before clutter free now clutter free has not always I did not say hey I’m gonna start something called clutter free and now I’m gonna change my life like I changed my life and Then I thought I’m not the only one like this I wrote a book called clutter free and then I met my friend Tonya Kubo who seemed like the most put-together human being on the planet, but told me no

Tonya Kubo (01:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:39)
her life was a mess too, and we started to figure all this stuff out together. And what a gift that was because as much as the book helped people, I know that our Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life and this podcast have helped just exponentially more people. I really, people don’t believe that I was cluttery at one point. And I’m like, no, I’m still cluttery at some points, but.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

still cluttering. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)
I’m not afraid

to invite you into my house. So I wanted to talk about what are some key things that look different now than they did when I was clutter free. number one, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. And this has been a huge shift for me because I would always think as I’ve…

Tonya Kubo (02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:32)
pretty much always been a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of person and who actually works nine to five. Let’s be clear, it’s eight to six. But I’ve pretty much been that person my whole life and I was just so busy during the week that I’m like, I’m just gonna save all this up for the weekends. And I don’t live like that anymore. Like as I am leaving a room, I’m like, are there things I can grab to throw away, to put away, to declutter?

Tonya Kubo (02:39)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:00)
Is that similar for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:03)
Yeah, I mean, I still think, you know, because my kids are younger, right? Like our house is always in some state of shambles, but you know, little things that I used to on Fridays clean off my desk, for instance. And now it’s just at the end of the day, right? It just is so much easier to take like a handful of stuff at the end of each day than to have to make multiple trips every Friday.

Kathi Lipp (03:06)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It makes such a difference, right? Because I don’t know, there’s just something about like, I’ve saved this up for an entire week. You know, instead of just saying, okay, a little bit of time, a little bit of time, my brain has shifted into small amounts of decluttering instead of huge mountains of decluttering. Okay, so that’s number one. Tonya, we’re going back and forth. Tonya, what’s number two?

Tonya Kubo (03:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (03:54)
something that you don’t do now that you live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (03:57)
Okay, so this might seem silly, but I genuinely used to think unloading the dishwasher took 30 minutes and now I realize it takes about three and a half. So I don’t put off unloading the dishwasher till the weekend. Like seriously, I made it into such a big job in my head and I don’t need more.

Kathi Lipp (04:11)
Right?

Yeah, yes,

I feel like doing the dishes could take a half hour if you’ve got a lot of dishes piled up if you have things that need to be soaked like, you know, deep, deep scrub. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:24)
Right, but I didn’t say doing the dishes, Kathi. I just

said unload the dishwasher.

Kathi Lipp (04:30)
just thinking maybe that’s why your brain was playing tricks on you and here’s what I know is when you when you unload the dishes here’s the magical thing it’s easier to load the dishes I know that seems like it should be obvious but our cluttery people will get that

Tonya Kubo (04:42)
Right.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Yeah, okay. Number three, I don’t stand next to the gas pump while it’s filling up. I, okay, so I think a lot of our cluttering friends will get this. I went, those small moments, like just like you were talking about with the microwave, I unload the dishwasher in the two and a half minutes that my, or I at least get it started in the two and a half minutes that my oatmeal is cooking.

Tonya Kubo (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:18)
And

so now I am married to somebody who does quiet contemplation while his coffee is warming up. And I’m like, you know what, we just live different lives. while I’m pumping my gas, I clean out the car. I just grab a few things. I throw them into the garbage. I feel like that’s free garbage. Garbage is such a big deal up here.

Tonya Kubo (05:24)
Hahaha

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

it is free garbage. I am right there with you.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)
It makes me so happy. I can’t even stand it. Yeah, I’m never somebody who would bring garbage from my house to throw away. I’ve heard of people doing that. I know. But if I’ve got a McDonald’s cup, that that’s going in the garbage while I’m pumping. It is I’m doing all the things and even like our truck takes a long time to fill up. I have been known to we have a like a hand vac in the truck.

Tonya Kubo (05:53)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)
and I’ve been known to like vacuum things out while I’m doing, yeah, it makes me so happy I can’t even stand it. Okay, but I’m doing, what the core concept behind that is it just takes a moment to make a small difference. And like you just said with the unloading dishwasher and even with the, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. If I can do a little bit each day, man, the weekends can be for.

Tonya Kubo (06:17)
Nice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:42)
fun or bigger projects or things like that. Okay, number four, Tonya, what’s something that you don’t do now that you’re living clutter free?

Tonya Kubo (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t go shopping when I’m tired, hungry, or frustrated.

Kathi Lipp (06:56)
That’s my favorite time to go shopping. Okay, tell me more. Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
It’s everybody’s favorite time to go shopping.

Right. But I mean, something that I learned early on in my clutter free journey is that when I’m tired, I’m hungry or I’m frustrated, my tolerance, like my my impulse control is lower and my desire to soothe is higher. And so I feel like everything I see at the store is going to make me feel better. And it is not.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)
Yeah.

Mmm, good.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:26)
to make me feel better. I am still going to leave the store tired, hungry, and frustrated so I may as well just solve those problems before I go.

Kathi Lipp (07:33)
Okay, can I tell you how I’m even worse at this and it’s something I need to correct in my own life. So I go to the store, which is a chore, right? That is an errand. Right. And I feel like because I have done that, even when I was living in San Jose and things were like five minutes, like, look at me checking things off of my list. I deserve a little treat, a little treaty treat. Can we just say that shopping and Target

Tonya Kubo (07:42)
Yeah, it’s a jaunt for you. It’s a jaunt.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (08:02)
It’s so much better when you have Starbucks. And so like this is the thinking I have to unpack all the time in my cluttery journey. it just, makes a difference. It makes a difference when you say, and I just, but I try not to go, I pack snacks now in our car so that we are not so tempted.

Tonya Kubo (08:05)
I’m sure it is, I’m sure it is.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)
Like it’s okay every once in a while to go to Starbucks, but you don’t get Starbucks every time you leave the house. Yes, okay. And so tired, hungry, frustrated will lead you to, and here’s the other part of that that I think is you’re so wise because I’ll just throw things in my cart and I’ll say I’ll return them later if I’m frustrated. Like, you know, don’t go shopping for jeans when you’re tired, frustrated or hungry. That’s just the meanest thing you could do to yourself.

Tonya Kubo (08:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

No.

Kathi Lipp (09:00)
but then I’ll buy all the jeans and then I’m like, now I have to take them back. And then like, I already have a return right now of a shirt and it’s, we’re recording this around Christmas time. And I’m like, the last thing I want to do on earth is go into a store and return a shirt. Like I can’t think of anything I want to do less. Okay. Number five, I don’t leave a room without scanning the room. So.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi Lipp (09:27)
What that means is I don’t, I don’t just walk into another room. I will walk into another room, but I will grab the dish that’s on my desk. I will grab the shirt that needs to be returned. Can you tell I’m going through stuff? I will grab the jacket that needs to be hung downstairs. And here’s why I think that this matters. Even if I’m just going into Roger’s office, which is still on the top of the floor.

I’ll move those things to the top of the stairs so that I used to think if I’m gonna do something, I need to do it all the way. And no, I just need to push it forward. I need to push that chore forward. And that makes a huge difference. It’s like, even if I can’t unload the entire dishwasher while my oatmeal is cooking, I’m pushing it forward enough and I’m yelling up to Roger,

Tonya Kubo (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
The dishes are clean, I’m just not done yet. And so he knows not to put dirty dishes in there. But if you can push it forward, then the next time you’re reheating your coffee, you can push it forward another minute and you might get it done. And so scanning a room, seeing what can I push into place? Because here’s what I know, if I leave it all until I have time, then I’m gonna spend half a day going up and down the stairs. And that sounds like my worst nightmare, I hate that stuff.

Tonya Kubo (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (10:56)
Yeah, okay. So we have gone through our top five. We’re gonna take a quick break, pay some bills. We’re gonna come back and Tonya is gonna talk about how she doesn’t apologize. I can’t wait to hear about how you do this. Teach me, Obi-Wan. We’ll be right back. Okay, guys, we are back with 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter free. So Tonya, you say you don’t apologize. For what?

Tonya Kubo (11:23)
I

apologize for the condition of my house.

Kathi Lipp (11:26)
So tell me more. Tell me how I can get brave and be really like, just come on in.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)
well, just stop doing it. I mean, that’s how I did it, right? It was like a cold turkey. Like, I think there was a bit of a transition of where I would say, I probably should apologize for the state of my house, but I won’t. But I just don’t. And, you know, some people come in and say stuff and some people don’t, and I don’t really care. Because what I realize is we all have a different standard. You know, I used to apologize. And I realized that a lot of people

Kathi Lipp (11:37)
wow.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:03)
Like, first of all, I would apologize after spending hours doing a crisis clean because I knew other people would come in and like, and feel like my house was in complete disarray. And I was like, why am I acting like I didn’t just kill myself to make this house look nicer? And then I got to where, you know what? What do I care? mean, people come in, sometimes people are like, wow, you must be really busy. I am. That’s not untrue. I am really busy.

Kathi Lipp (12:13)
Mmm.

Right, right.

It’s a great friend test, right? Can we hang? Can we hang? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I’m just

like, there’s nothing they could say that’s probably not true to some degree. And I’ve had like repair guys come in, it’s funny, is because the repair guys will come in and our front room doesn’t have flooring. We tore up the flooring and then building costs went up so we have not replaced the flooring. And they’ll go to put the booties on them like, yeah, that’s cute. You don’t have to do that here. And they’ll look around and they’re like, okay.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)
All right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:01)
Every now and then they’ll say, are you sure? Like, yeah, no, we’re good here.

Kathi Lipp (13:06)
Yeah.

Well, it’s so true. Our lives are all in transition, right? And when you have kids, the amount of day-to-day clutter goes up exponentially. Or maybe you’re in the midst of a big project. You know, I’ll never forget during the launch of Clutter Free, book, the state my house was in. It was like, we can’t take any pictures. And just recently,

Tonya Kubo (13:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:35)
Tenneil who manages our social media said, Kathi, can we get a video of you pushing in a chair? And right now we’re in Christmas crazies. I’m like, it would take me 45 minutes to get to a place to push in a chair. Right, it’s, yeah, because there’s all the fudge making supplies right there, yeah. So are you really, are you using marshmallow fluff in it?

Tonya Kubo (13:45)
No. To push in the chair. You’re like, “‘Cause I can’t get to the chair to push it in.”

Yes, I’m making fudge this weekend too. Anyway, I am.

I am using marshmallow fluff in it. I took a whole class on how to make fudge using marshmallow fluff. It was fun.

Kathi Lipp (14:05)
I saw that I saw that well,

I saw the fudge class. I didn’t know that there was the marshmallow fluff. Yeah, I’m very excited I’m just using a recipe off the internet But as you know, we live next to not next to you know half I don’t know 20 minutes away from a gourmet chocolate shop, which is the only Yeah, they’re a whiner They ship they’re so good but also let’s just say their fudge has gourmet prices and I’m like

Tonya Kubo (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Little John’s, they ship. Little John’s, you should order from Little John’s.

Yes

Kathi Lipp (14:35)
How much would it cost for me to do this? And Roger’s like, we can buy their other stuff. We never have to buy fudge again. And I was like, I’m an indentured fudge servant now. Got it. Okay. Okay. You know what? It’s good. Hey, speaking of fudge, number seven, I don’t buy all the gear for hobbies unless I have a pattern of doing the hobby. Because here’s what I’ve discovered, Tonya. You know what my hobby is? Buying the stuff for hobbies.

Tonya Kubo (14:44)
Yes, I am too.

Mmm.

I

was gonna say preparing to have a hobby.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)
So here’s what I said, know, like one of the recipes that I am preparing right now called for a candy thermometer. And I’m like, ugh.

Tonya Kubo (15:17)
I need that for the fudge recipe with the marshmallow fluff. You need a candy thermometer.

Kathi Lipp (15:20)
Okay, so here’s what I told

myself if I prepare three recipes right now that don’t require the the thermometer if I if I prepare these three Christmas gift II things then I am allowed to buy a Candy thermometer and I got one by the way Michaels has 30 % off coupons for a while now. So go check that out I got the I think it’s the Wilson one but

Tonya Kubo (15:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ew.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)
I cannot tell you how many hobbies I’ve invested in and had to keep that stuff because I invest I told myself I’ve invested so heavily I need to keep all this stuff. It just it doesn’t make sense and it’s not the right thing. So I no longer I need to have a pattern of Can I start this hobby with stuff I have or can I start this hobby for less than ten dollars? And if I find that I really enjoy it

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Then I will keep going but I am NOT going to go I’ll just say my history is buying at a professional level and performing at an amateur level like it’s not good

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
I

know that feeling though. If I have the same paints and brushes that Bob Ross has, I will make the same pictures that Bob Ross made.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)
Right.

Right, right.

And you know, our friend Cheri Gregory, friend of the podcast, Cheri Gregory calls it buying to become and I have done that for years and years. Okay, Tonya, number eight.

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Yeah.

Okay, I kind of stole from you because you said that you scan a room before you leave. Before I go to bed, I make a round through the house specifically for dirty dishes. And here’s my, if I made a round through my house for decluttering, I would never make it to bed. But I can make a pass through my teeny tiny house just for dirty dishes in about 25 minutes. And it makes my life so much easier that

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

so smart.

No, of course not.

Hmm

Tonya Kubo (17:24)
Like, know, because all run into bulls, where are all the bulls? The bulls are in the kids’ room underneath the bed. Why are they underneath the bed? I actually can’t answer that question, but that is where I find them.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Okay, Tonya, we are missing a bowl right now. There are just two of us. There are just two of us. This giant glass bowl, we cannot find. Is it under Lily’s bed? That’s my question now.

Tonya Kubo (17:36)
Maybe it’s under my bed!

It’s probably under Lily’s bed, and this is the worst of it, right? Is the way that Abby’s bed works, it sits lower to the ground. So Abby shoves stuff underneath Lily’s bed too. It’s not even all Lily’s fault.

Kathi Lipp (17:52)
Ugh.

Poor Lily. I’m sorry Lily. I did not mean to throw you under the bus bus or the bed Okay, so you do so what 25 minutes that seems like a long time so break that down for me Really okay

Tonya Kubo (18:13)
It’s a lot of dishes in my kid’s room and a lot of

dishes by Mr. Kubo’s desk. So it’s two trips. Two to three trips from the girl’s room, two trips from Brian’s desk and then

Kathi Lipp (18:20)
Got it. So you’re having to make multiple trips. Got it. Okay. And then

And and you’re

loading you’re soaking all that. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay Okay, that makes total sense. And I think doing doing a round of dishes I really feel like when everything else in your life falls apart the two things that you need to stay on top of are dishes and laundry because Mm-hmm. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (18:49)
Yes and I will say just really quickly that 25 minutes

does include a good five minute temper tantrum of my gosh what is growing in this thing.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)
I love it. Yeah, the the the Dishes and laundry if you stay on top of those like I don’t care how crunchy your kitchen floor gets I don’t care, you know at the I would say the third thing but this doesn’t have to be done as Much is staying on top of bills. Those are the important things that if you fall behind on them It’s going to be super painful to recover from them

Tonya Kubo (19:01)
That’s in there too.

No.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:25)
But if you can stay on top of those three things, it takes almost the same amount of energy to mop the floor when it’s been a week or five weeks. Like, I don’t want you to have to go five weeks, but if you need to in a crisis, you can. And yeah, and also stay on top of your garbage and recycling. number nine. This is my last thing of things I don’t do now that I live clutter free.

Tonya Kubo (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:55)
Okay, I try not to I’m still working through this but I’m much better than I used to be I don’t compare my stuff to my friends stuff so Or stuff on social media. There is always a new thing That would make my life two percent easier or two percent better Not not my entire life if something made my entire life two percent better you bet I’m going to invest in that but like

Tonya Kubo (20:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:25)
Let’s say, know, my, my robot vacuum, there are now robot vacuums that you can control remotely. Like I could be at my mom’s house and now I could get that doesn’t make my life better enough to upgrade my robot. Like my robots fine. We get along. We, she does what she needs to do. I’m sorry. It’s normally a he. I don’t know why I said she, cause I like for all my domestic labor to be he’s.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)
Because I just think that’s fair But I Just because somebody else has something that has made their life Infamates Lee better. It doesn’t mean that I need to upgrade it. I I try when I see you wearing a cute sweater I’m not going to say you know what? need that cute sweater. I’m gonna I’m one of things I’m trying to do is go into my own closet

Tonya Kubo (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:22)
and see

my own cute sweaters and the things that make me happy. So I’m trying really hard to reframe what my friends have. And also that can be a form of jealousy. I can just say, you know what? I’m really happy that Tonya has that sweater. I think she looks great in it. She’s having fun with it. And it makes me happy to see her in it. And it doesn’t have to be, I don’t have to own it for it to bring me happiness. So trying to stay out of that comparison trap.

Tonya Kubo (21:33)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)
And I’m sure when you go into people’s houses that have floors, that can be hard.

Tonya Kubo (21:57)
I do have floor envy right now, I’m not gonna lie. If you’ve got luxury vinyl plank, I’m eyeballing your floors, let me tell ya.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)
I you do.

And I do have that upstairs and I wrestled over that decision for about two years And I’m so glad we pulled the trigger It’s so painful to get flooring done just because of all the moving and shifting and all that kind of stuff Okay, Tonya round out our list. Give us number ten. All right

Tonya Kubo (22:09)
Yeah, no.

It is.

My cluttery peeps will get this. I no longer gain comfort or security from having full shelves, full drawers, etc.

Kathi Lipp (22:33)
yeah, space scares us, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)
Space is scary because space is scarcity and lack and my gosh what

if I don’t have enough. But if things are full even if they’re full of stuff that you haven’t worn in 22 years you believe you have enough clothes if for some reason they stopped making all clothing.

Kathi Lipp (22:48)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Tonya, this is so interesting. A number of people on TikTok and other apps are doing a no buy 2025, right? And the conventional wisdom is declutter your closet so you can see what you have. And then, so you know what you have, because it is, it’s easier to see what you have when you have less stuff in your closet.

Tonya Kubo (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
But I heard one woman, I thought this was so interesting. And I’m just gonna throw this out there for your reaction. She goes, I am not decluttering before my 2025. Because when I declutter, I feel like there is empty space. And I feel this urge to fill that space with shopping, with thrifting, with all these other things. So what she is doing is she is.

Tonya Kubo (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:50)
putting some of her clothes into another closet, including clothes she likes, so that she will, she remember, I’ve got more stuff. I don’t know, how does that hit you? I thought it was really interesting. Really.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I have a friend who does that actually. she has,

yeah, so she boxes up all of her extra stuff, even if it’s in the current season. And she has it all in like the rafters of her garage. But whenever she’s like, I wanna go shopping, she just goes and she takes a box down and she trades out pieces.

Kathi Lipp (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I think it’s really interesting. And so I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I’m going to try the other closet boxing because yeah, when I pull out all my winter stuff, I’m so happy. I’m like, I never need to go shopping again. And then after about two weeks, I’m like, you know, people are really into these green grandpa sweaters and like, okay, Kathi, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Tonya Kubo (24:50)
Yeah,

see, and I’m the person, I want all of my clothing to be able to fit in this much of my closet. Like, I don’t wanna ever change anything out. I don’t wanna work that hard. I’m just so, like, I don’t wanna say lazy, but really it’s just like, that is just something that takes such a high level of perceived energy for me that I’m like, I’m good.

Kathi Lipp (24:56)
Yes, you.

Yeah.

Okay, see, even within our Cluttery community, we all have our own little quirks. And that’s why it’s okay for you to forge your own path, but think about the wisdom that will get you to the next space in your Clutter-free journey. I hope one of these has inspired you today. Tonya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (25:18)
We do.

Thanks for having me.

Kathi Lipp (25:37)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you always wanted to live.

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#647 The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Dec 10, 2024 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, How to, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Parenting, Podcast, Tasks, tips and ideas | 0 comments

Listen Now

647 – The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

Hey friends! Have you ever felt so ashamed of your home that you would rather hide than invite anyone over?

In this powerful episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into the emotional landscape of clutter, shame, and isolation. They candidly share personal experiences of feeling trapped by household disorganization and the psychological barriers that prevent people from seeking help.

Listeners will discover:

How clutter can lead to social withdrawal
The importance of accountability and community in overcoming organizational challenges
The benefits of joining the supportive, compassionate Clutter Free for Life community

Listeners will find inspiration in their message of self-acceptance and practical strategies for creating functional, livable spaces and transforming one’s relationship with home organization.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

Join Clutter Free For Life

While Clutter Free for Life comes with a plan of action to keep you moving forward in your decluttering journey day after day, the true magic of this membership program is in the community. It’s a program FOR cluttery people BY cluttery people.

It’s a family of cluttery people who want better for themselves and for you. We all understand the emotional weight of clutter and the physical barriers it causes. Clutter Free for Life members have a team of experts who know what it’s like to feel overwhelmed as their guides. Want to see whether the membership is right for you? Check out our info page Clutter Free For Life.

Can you share a personal story about how clutter once isolated you?

Share in the comments!

Let’s stay connected

To share your thoughts:

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

Well, hey friends, welcome to clutter free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life And I’m back and you know guys, we’re just gonna keep talking about it. We’re gonna keep talking about clutter. We’re gonna keep talking about all the reasons that we need to crush the clutter in our lives, especially as we’re going into the holidays because can we just, okay, I’m gonna say something controversial. Hey, Tonya, by the way. Hey, Tonya’s here. Can I say holidays are their own form of clutter?

Tonya Kubo (00:42.622)

Bye.

Tonya Kubo (00:49.406)

they totally are.

Kathi (00:51.2)

Yeah, that you know, clutter is not always bad. I right now downstairs, I’ve got some clutter on my table. But the clutter on my table is stuff I want. Or I don’t know if I want it, but I have to investigate like there’s mail down there. One of another podcaster I was on her show, we were talking about soups and we were talking about her favorite soup. And she said, my favorite soup is made with chow chow.

Tonya Kubo (00:57.49)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (01:21.676)

And I’m like, the only thing I know that is chow chow is either dog foods or dogs. So, do you know what chow chow is? How do you know what chow chow is?

Tonya Kubo (01:28.584)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Church fundraiser cookbooks?

Kathi (01:39.523)

Okay, that is fascinating. So, chow chow, would you explain it because I’ve actually never tasted it. Go for it. Or do you know? I know it’s made with cabbage, right? It’s like a relish with cabbage.

Tonya Kubo (01:56.11)

It’s, I think it’s a relish and people put whatever they want in it. It’s one of those things, it reminds me of, you know, it’s like every family has their own way of doing it, but it’s like canned, it’s home canned. And the people who love it, really, really love it. My mom hated it. My mom was like, ehh.

Kathi (02:17.48)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kathi (02:23.128)

So I was having this conversation with another podcaster and she was telling me about her, believe it’s a beef stew recipe that uses chow chow as a main ingredient. And I said, well, that sounds really interesting. She was kind enough to, she went to an Amish store and shipped me two cans of chow chow, or at least that’s what she’s told me. I have not opened the box yet, but I’m gonna go buy the ingredients to make her recipe and.

Tonya Kubo (02:27.016)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:31.986)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:42.162)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:47.517)

Right.

Kathi (02:52.738)

do that. So it’s clutter, because it’s not put away. But also there’s a category of clutter, where there’s no way to put it yet, because I have never had a chow chow section of my pantry before. And I just like saying chow chow. Can you tell?

Tonya Kubo (02:55.676)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (03:07.456)

Right. I know. But remember, our definition of clutter is do you love it? Do you use it? Would you? Could you buy it again? I add the could you part. But for you, you know, it’s like it just needs to find a home.

Kathi (03:13.688)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi (03:25.408)

So, so Tonya what this is is Schrodinger’s chow chow because I both want it and don’t know if I want it I both will use it and have never used it And I don’t know that I would buy it again because I’ve never bought it once So it is it is Schrodinger’s chow chow and that’s okay. That’s okay

Tonya Kubo (03:51.55)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (03:52.362)

We don’t need to we don’t need to have a category for everything there has to be some space in your house for the things that you haven’t decided on but I do want to talk about what clutter can do to us because you and I have both lived with hoarders and I would say one of the the worst part about clutter hoarding is the extreme version obviously

Tonya Kubo (04:01.447)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:17.662)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:20.792)

But even as a young mom, I really struggled with clutter. And I would say it was isolating for me. Like I didn’t want to have people over. I remember thinking, it’s okay to have kids over, but I don’t want to have their parents over until a kid said something about my clutter. And I’m like, well, I don’t want to have anybody over anymore. And I, did you…

Tonya Kubo (04:39.154)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:48.61)

Did you also experience that isolation with your clutter?

Tonya Kubo (04:53.116)

Yeah, well, I mean, you referenced it in your book, Clutter Free. And I remember the first time I read that and realizing, right, like I couldn’t have anybody over when I was a kid. I mean, every now and then my mom would make an exception. But, you know, it was always having to balance like, OK, if I let a friend come over, were they going to go to school and talk about how my house looked? Right. And then, you know, I made a conscious decision, especially when the girls were little, that I wasn’t going to let the condition of my house.

Kathi (04:56.492)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (05:13.342)

Right. Yeah, right.

Tonya Kubo (05:23.326)

prevent me from inviting people over. So I would just tell people, I’m not cleaning for you. But I had a similar experience when I was pregnant with Abby. And like I had a potluck, a mops potluck at my house. And this one little girl came up to me and she was like, why is your house so messy? And my friend got offended for me. My friend Justine, who you know, got really offended for me. And she was like,

Kathi (05:49.358)

Bye now, Justine.

Tonya Kubo (05:51.612)

because she works full time. That’s why. she, I remember the little girl, cause she said, you only have one child and my mom has four. Why is your house so messy? My mom keeps our house clean. Which you know she got because her parents were talking about that at home, right?

Kathi (06:06.169)

Kathi (06:10.798)

I want to retroactively punch somebody in that family. Maybe not the child, but somebody.

Tonya Kubo (06:15.836)

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Tonya Kubo (06:20.994)

Right, and so then of course you have my friend Justine Popsin, well because she works full time and your mom doesn’t. Right, which is of course like total mommy-war stuff.

Kathi (06:31.106)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (06:33.054)

I just looked at it I said, know what? A clean house is a higher priority for your mom and your dad than it is for me and my husband. That’s all.

Kathi (06:44.494)

Okay, you gave the highly evolved answer. I might have said something like, well, your mommy’s also on antidepressants, which really helps with the… No, I wouldn’t have said that, but I’d want to say that because there’s no shame in being on antidepressants at all. Let’s be super clear. But also, I would want that little girl to be… I would want to punish her.

Tonya Kubo (06:44.572)

End.

Tonya Kubo (07:13.15)

Nah, she didn’t know any better.

Kathi (07:13.334)

Okay, you know what? I take back what I said about the antidepressants because people I love the most in the world are antidepressants. But that would have been my very unevolved response 30 years ago when I had kids and mops. Okay, that’s cute that I think I had kids. Yeah, 30 years ago. Okay, yeah. So I’m sorry. I’m just I’m, I’m, I’m D detangling stuff.

Tonya Kubo (07:30.686)

No.

Tonya Kubo (07:36.296)

I apologize for derailing our conversation about isolation.

Kathi (07:40.366)

You know, I think about it though, because well, okay, I think we just proved something there, or at least I did my unevolved response proves something. What will make me act terribly faster than shame?

Tonya Kubo (07:58.482)

Mm-hmm. yeah, totally. Well, and we have talked about this several times, right? We see that in Clutterfree Academy. I mean, so often, you know, we don’t get a lot of prickly people in there nowadays, right? Because we have such a strong culture and everybody really does want to be kind, but…

Kathi (08:01.923)

It

Kathi (08:08.47)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (08:14.272)

No. Mm hmm.

Kathi (08:21.027)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (08:21.746)

The times that we do get somebody super prickly, it’s because they are so deeply embedded in shame that they can’t see their way out of it. And I feel like, you know, it’s that hurting people hurt. A lot of times they’ll lash out because they want to take the offensive rather than, cause they assume somebody’s going to lash out at them.

Kathi (08:28.941)

Yeah.

Kathi (08:34.902)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (08:39.81)

Yeah.

Kathi (08:44.844)

Yeah, Tonya, have you heard that? Maybe we’ve talked about it on here, the 17 diapers discussion. Have we talked about that? Yeah. And, you know, I think the people who are so hard on the mom who had 17 diapers for her brand newborn, who was doing it all on her own, are the people who either there are two ends of the spectrum. They get their validation from their house being perfect.

Tonya Kubo (08:51.034)

Yes, I think a couple episodes ago.

Tonya Kubo (09:04.883)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (09:14.846)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (09:15.554)

Or I could never live like that, but they’ve got some something else that they would never ever tell another human being. And so like, well, I’m not 17 diapers, so you’re worse than I am. Well, yeah, but you know, you do this other thing that you would never want the world to know about. it’s clutter can be so isolating, you know, and I think

Tonya Kubo (09:29.896)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (09:43.938)

once we get to a certain point, we feel like we can’t ask for help. Like I dug myself into this. I’m going to dig myself out. And we just don’t have a support system. And we get to this place where there’s so much self-criticism. We start to change the chemistry of our brain to believe, can we actually do something about this or not? So we have well articulated the problem. You have also seen my

Tonya Kubo (09:51.036)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (10:13.656)

propensity for rage based on something that was said to Tonya maybe 10 years ago, but here we are. Here we are, friends.

Tonya Kubo (10:20.594)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (10:25.786)

Everybody knows what a loyal friend you are though, Kathi, now.

Kathi (10:28.442)

Yeah, I write it done But I want to come back to what are some things that if you’re feeling in that space where you feel like you can’t do anything What are some things that you can actually get done? So we’re gonna take a little break and come right back

Okay, friends, we’re talking about the shame and isolation of clutter. And Tonya and I want to come back and talk to you about that. Because we’ve both been there. We know a lot of people who have been there. And we know that there’s a way out because here, I love that story about the man who falls down in the hole. And a you know this story. And I’m sure most of our listeners do but

Tonya Kubo (11:06.856)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (11:11.97)

You know, a priest walks by and says, I see you’re down in the hole. And he throws a prayer down to him. And then a politician comes by. He says, I see you’re down in the hole. And he throws a law down to him. And then there’s a police officer who comes by and he throws a law about you’re not supposed to be down in the hole. And then finally, a friend comes by and

He jumps in to the hole and the guy in the hole says, why did you do that? Now we’re both stuck in the hole. And the friend who jumped in says, yeah friend, but I know the way out and I can show you. So let’s get out together. like I’ve heard that story for 25 years ever since I first heard it on West Wing and it still gives me chills because I feel like

Tonya Kubo (11:56.36)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (12:10.924)

That is so much of what we do in Clutter-Free Academy and Clutter-Free Life is friend, I’ve been in the hole before, but I actually know the way out. Let’s get out together. And maybe you don’t know your way completely out of the hole. And by the way, Tonya, that person from the Mops group would come to my house today and her daughter would say, why is your house so messy?

Tonya Kubo (12:12.882)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (12:39.264)

And I would say, you know what, my house is perfect for me. Because apparently her mom had different priorities and that is just fine for her family. But my home is happy, my home is clean. And we get to do a lot of wonderful cooking and loving and entertaining and work in our homes. And I’m really, really grateful. And so if that sounds like how you want your home to be.

Tonya Kubo (12:42.333)

Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (12:52.488)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (13:08.18)

If that sounds like how the kind of home you would like your kids or your grandkids to be in, I would love to tell you some things that have happened for us. So first of all, accountability. Tonya, how do you feel like accountability works in our groups?

Tonya Kubo (13:26.192)

Yeah, well, in ClutterFree Academy, right, the accountability piece is really more on the member. We have some members that want to be, you know, they want support and accountability. And so they post their before and after pictures. They ask specifically like, hey, you know what, can somebody check in on me at the end of the day, make sure I did what I said I would do. Whereas in ClutterFree for life, because it’s a paid membership program,

Kathi (13:34.786)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:54.608)

and people really are saying, I am going to pay you to boss me around, Tonya Kathi Grace, right? We actually are a little bit more proactive in the accountability. So we’re checking in daily. I am somebody who pays attention if somebody who has been active is quiet and I reach out to them. And usually, I mean, like I’m not like calling them or showing up at their house, okay? I’m not over the top, but I’ll tag them in a post in the group.

Kathi (13:59.778)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi (14:12.812)

Mmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:23.486)

I might drop them an email just to see. Because the thing is, is I know life gets in the way of our best intentions all the time. And what I know is that once you fall out of that routine, sometimes, like for me, all I need to do is skip two days and it’s no longer my routine. It’s no longer a habit. Like that’s how fragile my habits are. And so I know that on day three, it’s very easy to say, well, you know what? I messed up. I’m out for the whole month.

Kathi (14:31.63)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (14:52.332)

Right. If it’s not perfect, then I’m not going to get the rewards of somebody who’s perfect. So I’m out of here.

Tonya Kubo (14:52.999)

Right?

Tonya Kubo (14:58.982)

Yeah, or you know what? I have let Tonya and Kathi down. I get apology emails left and right. I am so sorry, Tonya, but this happened and that happened and you know what? I’m like, I get it because I felt that way too. And I’m always like, please pick up wherever you left off, just pick it up. We’re here for you. Is there something I can immediately help you with? And I’ll tag them in that post or that coaching session. Because that’s the other thing is,

Kathi (15:17.101)

Yeah.

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (15:28.062)

Our weekly coaching sessions, as much as they are designed to help people with the next step, they’re a great place for people to come and discuss what’s hard and get peer-to-peer support in addition to support from our team.

Kathi (15:39.074)

Yeah.

Kathi (15:43.758)

Yes, and I love the accountability. It keeps me on track because it’s so easy for life to crowd out things in another way. But the accountability says, no, Kathi, you’ve said that this is important to you. We’re just reminding ourselves of what’s important and that’s what we need. So there’s power and accountability being able and I think part of the accountability for me is to say I’m not the worst person in the world.

Tonya Kubo (15:52.819)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:00.538)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:14.297)

yeah.

Kathi (16:14.316)

that I don’t have the worst house in the world. And another part, and I know you’ll get this Tonya, and I think our listeners will too, cleaning out that drawer in my bathroom that has been bugging me for so long and has made me feel gross. If I shared that with my family, they might say, well, that’s what you’re supposed to do. But if I share it with,

Tonya Kubo (16:17.34)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:24.04)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:33.555)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:41.435)

Right.

Kathi (16:43.776)

My clutter free group. They’re going to say no we get this that’s important. That’s big And getting that, you know sharing strategies getting that support Is so crucial, but I think the number one thing for me is saying You don’t need to live in shame I have been there or I am there and you know, the only shameful thing is to give up and I don’t even want to shame people who are giving up because

But the only thing that should be like, I need to change this desperately right now is giving up. Because you’ve said that this is important to you and you wanna live a different way and we wanna be there to help you. And the longer I do this, Tonya, the more I see our clutter-free group being like any other recovery group, like an AA meeting or an NA meeting or.

Tonya Kubo (17:25.502)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:38.322)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (17:42.358)

You know a whatever whatever kind of meeting you can think of way that Yeah, you can do it on your own, but why make it a thousand times harder?

You know, because be around people who not only support your recovery, but understand the challenges you’re having in that recovery.

Tonya Kubo (18:03.386)

Yeah, well, people having ideas that you haven’t thought of. mean, this is something that has come up quite a bit in the paid membership program is a shoe or buying a shoe organizer to organize unmentionables in a way that they hang on the back of a door in a house that doesn’t have a lot of space. Right.

Kathi (18:19.47)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (18:27.138)

Yeah, interesting.

Tonya Kubo (18:28.796)

I mean, it’s fascinating actually, the different things you can put in a shoe organizer. But some of us are like, well, it says shoe organizer, so we only think of using that for shoes. And then somebody else says, this is what I do. And you go, I can’t even visualize that. And then they say, well, I’ll just post a picture. And then you’re like, wow.

Kathi (18:33.667)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (18:39.512)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (18:50.006)

Yeah. Okay. You know why I love that so much, Tonya? my goodness. Do you know why I love that? Because the things online are only the aesthetically pleasing things because you want to be able to go to your drawer and see all the little compartments and you want to get that high from it being overly organized and color coordinated. And you know, there are organizing systems out there that, you know, you, you put things from yellow to purple.

Tonya Kubo (19:01.32)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (19:19.772)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (19:20.026)

And that’s the only way you’re and it makes me crazy because our houses are not set up like that I don’t have a walk-in closet My closet is a walkout closet, know, and I do have a shoe organizer in there But can I tell you my shoe organizing system? Do you want to hear how awesome this? Okay So every night when I’m getting into bed and I’m changing into my clothes, I kick my shoes into the bottom

Tonya Kubo (19:27.773)

Right.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (19:39.366)

I do, I wanna hear it.

Kathi (19:49.39)

the closet in a jumble and then on Saturdays I put them away so You usually have five to six pairs of shoes on the bottom of the closet For about a week and then I put them away so I can find them again But you know what it works for me. Yeah, am I am I ready to get photographed for House Beautiful? I am NOT and if they came here, I’d break their camera, but it

Tonya Kubo (19:51.07)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (20:13.852)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (20:17.792)

My life is so much better than my shoes being all over the house every day tripping over them. It’s, it’s, do I want to be perfect or do I want to be sustainable? I want to be sustainable.

Tonya Kubo (20:30.46)

Yeah, no, exactly. mean, and I’m somebody, I only like alternate between two pairs of shoes usually. I tuck them underneath the bed, right? Because I get dressed in the dark because I get up hours before Brian does. So I just, there’s one little spot underneath the bed. That’s where my shoes live. I put them on, I’m good to go. And I think that’s the other thing that, so there is a time for aesthetics. There really is.

Kathi (20:36.824)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (20:40.366)

Perfect. Yeah.

Kathi (20:45.836)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (21:00.892)

But most of us now is not that time, right? Now is the time to minimize, like get as much out of there and to make our houses functional. So, you know, like for us right now, like socks are such a battle when you have kids and it was fine when their feet were not as big as mine. Now that our feet are all the same size.

Kathi (21:12.782)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (21:18.638)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (21:27.774)

It’s a problem. So we have two of those fabric cubes and all the socks go in there and we don’t match them. We don’t do anything. It is absolutely not a great long-term solution, but I don’t have socks all over the house and I’m not worried about whose socks are in whose drawer.

Kathi (21:44.814)

Okay, can I tell you my ultimate sock solution that I did when I had teenagers? I don’t know if this will work for you, but my girls would keep stealing my socks. I had black no-show socks. So what I did was I ordered a dozen Barney socks and.

Tonya Kubo (21:48.59)

I’ll take it. I will take it.

Kathi (22:11.726)

they were never touched by my teenage girls.

Tonya Kubo (22:15.423)

that’s funny.

Kathi (22:16.972)

Because I was so sick of, I literally did not have socks. And I’m like, I, go ahead.

Tonya Kubo (22:21.478)

Right. Well, I was going to say, yeah, I don’t have socks, but it’s not the girl’s fault. Remember, Brian does the laundry and Brian has an organization system that is called Mine Not Mine.

Kathi (22:29.326)

Right?

Tonya Kubo (22:36.922)

And if it is not his, then it goes all in the same pile. Right? And so the girls and I, was like their underwear in my drawer, my underwear in their drawer. And I would always like hold up their underwear. like, what part of you thinks this is my size? And that’s when he explained, he’s like, Tonya, it’s a simple system. It’s mine and not mine. And if it’s not mine, I just kind of assume maybe it’s yours.

Kathi (22:43.01)

Yes.

Kathi (22:47.726)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (22:53.366)

Right, right, right, right.

Kathi (23:05.302)

Okay, thank you, Brian, for doing laundry. Grateful.

Tonya Kubo (23:06.59)

Exactly. I am grateful for the laundry and now we have this weird commingled sock thing, but it works for now. once, Lily and I have been talking about this, it’s like, okay, once our frustration level gets to the point that we are ready to solve it on our own, we will do that. Until then we do not complain and we tolerate the solution that dad has come up

Kathi (23:25.708)

Right. Right.

Yes, Barney the Dinosaur, just keep that in your back pocket.

Tonya Kubo (23:34.928)

I might actually, that’s tempting.

Kathi (23:39.138)

Yeah, just make your stuff so undesirable that nobody else in the house will touch it. Yeah. Okay. So Tonya, this is literally the last day of our sale.

Tonya Kubo (23:44.872)

Right.

Tonya Kubo (23:51.794)

Right, well, we haven’t even talked about the clutter free for life sale!

Kathi (23:54.646)

So here’s why I’m gonna ask you if people are feeling isolated, what is our last ditch effort to say one, you’re the person who might benefit from this and two, what it’s gonna change for you.

Tonya Kubo (24:09.05)

I mean, it’s clutter free for life, right? So I guess here’s the thing is if you were looking for your house to be Pinterest perfect in 30 days, this is not the program for you. This is for the person who says it’s going to take time. It’s going to take effort. It’s a day to day thing that I’m going to have to work on. I’m going to slip. I’m going to fall. I might not even like look at the program materials for three months time. I may not. But when I’m ready,

Kathi (24:12.045)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (24:39.354)

I will have this whole community of people who are waiting for me and are happy to help me pick back up. Then Clutter Free for Life is 100 % for you. You can do our annual pass right now. It’s over 60 % off of regular price. Month to month is totally an option as well. But right now the annual pass is just 118 for a whole year. That’s what, like nine bucks? You do the math way better than I do, Kathi. It’s like nine bucks a month.

Kathi (25:04.098)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (25:07.958)

And it’s worth trying out and giving it a go. And if it’s not for you, then you’ll know in the first 30 days, I think. Because we’re pretty laid back and sometimes we’re just too laid back for people. I get that. But I really think you just… They do. People do come in really expecting me to be mean. And I’m just like, I don’t have it in me. I’m sorry.

Kathi (25:16.482)

Yeah, for sure.

Kathi (25:21.696)

Yeah, no, they want us to be meaner to them.

Kathi (25:30.732)

No, that’s not what we do here. We’re nice and Right

Tonya Kubo (25:34.106)

I have a lot of compassion and I think my compassion, I actually had somebody last January who was like, no, like I don’t deserve compassion. And I was like, yeah, you do. And they were telling me, they’re like, you don’t understand. And they were telling me like how lazy they were and all these things. And I said, wow, you have really high expectations of yourself. And they were like, well, yeah. And I said, and how’s that working? And they just kind of stopped. And I said, you know, like,

Kathi (25:46.04)

We all deserve compassion.

Tonya Kubo (26:04.07)

I can’t say the word right now. Recrimination, self-recrimination has, like it sounds like you have a history of that and it hasn’t been effective. So what if we tried compassion?

Kathi (26:06.636)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (26:14.092)

Yeah, yeah, because if you’re going to keep doing the same thing you’ve always been doing and it hasn’t worked And here’s the thing I come from a generation I come from generations of people who wanted to shame themselves into better behavior And it just it doesn’t work. Okay friends today’s the last day, but here’s the beautiful thing if it doesn’t work for you 30-day guarantee what if you got to lose and I think

Tonya Kubo (26:28.882)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi (26:43.488)

If you stick with it, you’re gonna see results. You may not feel like you see results in the first week, but within the first two weeks, you’re gonna start to see some noticeable results in your life. And we wanna be there to cheer you on. So I’m putting the link down there. It’s normally 299. You can join any time of the year for 299. But if you wanna get the super, because we like to onboard everybody at once. It saves our team a lot of time and a lot of energy.

Tonya Kubo (26:55.166)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (27:10.79)

Yep.

Kathi (27:13.006)

118 and That’s It’s less than $10 a month To know that you’re on the right track Tonya. Thanks for hanging out with me Okay, and friends, thank you for hanging out you’ve been listening to clutter free Academy. I’m Kathi lip now Go start the clutter free life. You’ve always wanted to live

Tonya Kubo (27:21.63)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (27:26.44)

Thanks for having me.

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#646 Why Your House Won’t Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter Cycle

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Dec 3, 2024 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, How to, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Parenting, Podcast, Tasks, tips and ideas | 0 comments

Listen Now

646 – Why Your House Won’t Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter Cycle

Hey there, friend! You know that feeling when you’ve spent an entire weekend decluttering, only to find your house looking exactly the same three weeks later?

You are definitely not alone!

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo tackle the persistent challenge of the clutter cycle. They explore why homes seem to accumulate clutter despite repeated decluttering efforts and offer practical solutions for creating lasting change.

Listeners will discover:

The value of setting realistic goals with a maximum of three priorities per day
Ways to help children develop organizational skills without creating tension
The importance of understanding different organizational styles within the family
Why small, consistent actions lead to lasting change

The hosts share personal experiences with generational clutter patterns and discuss how different organizational styles within families can impact home management.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

Join Clutter Free For Life

While Clutter Free for Life comes with a plan of action to keep you moving forward in your decluttering journey day after day, the true magic of this membership program is in the community. It’s a program FOR cluttery people BY cluttery people.

It’s a family of cluttery people who want better for themselves and for you. We all understand the emotional weight of clutter and the physical barriers it causes. Clutter Free for Life members have a team of experts who know what it’s like to feel overwhelmed as their guides. Want to see whether the membership is right for you? Check out our info page Clutter Free For Life.

What’s your advice for someone who feels overwhelmed by generational clutter patterns?

Share in the comments!

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am back with your Clutter Crusader. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. So today, I think this is such an interesting topic that we’re gonna be talking about today, is the clutter cycle.

Tonya Kubo (00:49.324)

Hey Kathi.

Kathi (00:59.717)

And there are lots of ways that we can be talking about the clutter cycle. You and I have both had cycles in our family that were clutter. I mean, I remember, I don’t know, did you know your grandparents? You did? Okay, were they cluttery people?

Tonya Kubo (01:17.426)

so my grandmother died before I was born, but my grandfather, he was disabled. like, he didn’t, like he, we lived with him. So it can’t really say whether he was cluddery or not.

Kathi (01:27.337)

Kathi (01:30.863)

Got it. Okay, because your mom who was a hoarder could have been the one who was bringing the clutter in. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (01:39.328)

Yeah, I mean, so what I know is that my grandmother was very, very particular about how clean the house was. And there was a 100 % right way to do things and then everything else was wrong.

Kathi (01:48.133)

Mmm.

Kathi (01:52.655)

Got it. Isn’t that interesting? So on my mom’s side, like my mom would get in trouble if she didn’t clean up all the little pieces of paper from the paper dolls, or if she left the scissors out. And on my dad’s side, I just remember chaos. Like, you know, my grandfather was a house painter after his sports career, and my grandmother was an artist.

Tonya Kubo (02:06.317)

Mmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:11.63)

Mm.

Kathi (02:21.569)

And I just remember there was always stuff around, like just stuff. But it didn’t feel cluttered to me. It just felt full. I don’t know, you know, a perspective of little kids. So there’s those kind of cycles. But then there’s also the cycle of just the overwhelm of our own house’s clutter. And I think that there is that feeling of overwhelm. And I don’t know where to start.

Tonya Kubo (02:27.288)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:31.117)

Yeah.

Kathi (02:51.333)

which is the internalized criticism. But then there’s also, if you live with other human beings, the frustration of, is it all up to me? Should it all be up to me? Why is this my problem and not the household problem? I think that you and I have felt that at different times, probably with our kids, but

I also have to defend other people in my family saying, you know, it’s a kid’s job to be cluttery. Like that’s part of their role. And so it’s for me, it’s always been more of a partner thing than it has been a parenting thing. How about for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:27.832)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (03:35.146)

Mm-hmm. Well, think, yeah, that’s the same. I just, I’m not bothered like other people are bothered by it because I just understand the nature of clutter is that it’s a cycle. And I think other people, and I mean, we see this all the time in the Facebook group, especially when people come in brand new, there is this skewed perspective.

Kathi (03:46.341)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (03:50.213)

Yeah, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (04:01.974)

that if I just get the house decluttered, then it’ll stay that way without me having to do anything extra. And I understand that it’s just an ebb and a flow.

Kathi (04:05.711)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Right. Yes.

Yeah, because we all love that high right after something’s been decluttered, right? Where we know where the scissors are, we can open that box and what it says on the outside of the box is on the inside of the box. And it feels so good. And then, but I think lots of times those decluttering, let’s just say binges where we binge declutter, we are relying

Tonya Kubo (04:39.308)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:44.011)

less on systems and more on memory. Like I just put this thing there last Tuesday, so it’s probably still there. I just put the scissors there last Wednesday, so they’re probably still there. And so we have less of a system and more of a, I just put it there. And then as other people start to get involved in the binge, that’s when it tends to fall apart.

And I know I will admit, I have been the person who says, why can’t you just put it back where it belongs? And they’re like, well, where would that be? Because I wonder if this is part of the cluttering profile, because I’m always trying to improve systems. Because I’m kind of equal creative and executing.

Tonya Kubo (05:34.446)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (05:41.57)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (05:42.669)

So I’m always trying to think of could we do this better? Could we do this better? Instead of, you know, pouring into deep systems, I’m just trying to always improve the system. So what was true last week is no longer true. Do you feel like that about yourself? Not at all. Do tell.

Tonya Kubo (05:51.48)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:00.302)

Right. Not at all. No. I never, I will never rearrange my furniture. I am the person who moved into a house that had pictures on the walls and I never removed them.

Kathi (06:14.607)

Shut up.

Tonya Kubo (06:16.782)

Just don’t care. Like, it’s just, can I live here? Sure. Can I live with this? Fine. I like, I have zero desire for decoration and it falls into my clothing too. You and me talk about clothing all the time. You know, some people are like, Tonya, you’re so good. You know, you just, you’re so into what your purpose here is in the world that you don’t care about styles or trends. And I’m like, no, it’s not cause I’m a better human. It’s cause quite honestly, I don’t have the energy for

Kathi (06:29.123)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (06:46.892)

Like, I do not feel like I haven’t like ascended to some special like, I don’t need to care about my appearance. I still have the energy. It’s like it has nothing to do with that, but sure.

Kathi (06:56.401)

Tonya, you’re just so much closer to Jesus than the rest of us.

someday I will be like Tonya. By the way, you look fabulous today. Your glasses are so on point. I love them so much. you know, I also know, yeah, so I do try and I’m not always good about updating the decor. I will say a lot of things that we when we bought this house, they had some really cute stuff that they left behind and it’s still in the same spot.

Tonya Kubo (07:06.318)

No!

Tonya Kubo (07:10.318)

Thanks.

Tonya Kubo (07:28.814)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (07:32.513)

Then we have people like to kneel in our lives who come to our house and say, can I just rearrange everything? And I’m like, sure, I don’t care.

Tonya Kubo (07:36.099)

Yeah

After, after to Neil and I visited your house, was like to Neil, can never come to my house. Cause like I like, no, no, you can, you cannot do those things. But you know, and I say this, you know, for our listener, because I do know that some of them kind of trend more toward where I’m at. You know, we had a situation where like where we kept our leftover containers, right? Some people call those tougher wear reusable containers, whatever you call them. We kept them in one like.

Kathi (08:04.133)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (08:06.636)

when we moved into the house, it was like, yeah, that seems like a good place to put things. So we put them there. We knew for years it was not really functional. were all these problems with it. It took me a year of thinking before I could come up with another place to put it. It’s just, it’s really hard for me to shift. I’m not a good systems creator. I’m a good systems assimilator. Right? So I can ass…

Kathi (08:28.785)

that’s good. That’s a real skill though.

Tonya Kubo (08:31.606)

I can assimilate into just about anybody’s system, but to create one from scratch is hard. So no, I’m never thinking of ways to improve the process.

Kathi (08:40.133)

See I am the good creator, but not the good assimilator like even into my own systems But I am let me just say this a good systems Bullpucky detector When I you know, I just saw an article yesterday dollar store solutions For your storage needs and they were talking about like the Tupperware stuff

Tonya Kubo (08:45.168)

Tonya Kubo (09:05.486)

Ugh.

Kathi (09:07.741)

And they were saying, you should put all of your small storage containers and lids in lingerie bag. And I say, I call a bullpucky on that. No, that would, it’ll make you feel good for a moment, but it will not, it will not make your life better. So here’s what Tonya and I are gonna do. We’re gonna go pay some bills and when you come back, we have fully explored the problem.

Now we’re gonna come up with some solutions to breaking that clutter cycle. So stick with us and we’ll be right back. Okay, Tonya and I are back. we wanna talk about how can you break those clutter cycles. I would love to say for once and for all, this is like those Buzzfeed articles that say,

Stop your snacking once and for all. There’s no stopping your snacking once and for all, but I can give you, Tonya can give you some ideas of how you can interrupt those cycles so that you’re constantly getting better. Because here’s what I’ll say, Tonya, I don’t feel like there has ever been one trick, one solution, anything that has changed my life, but it’s been a lot of small decisions reinforced day over day over day that have

taken me from cluttery to come onto my house. You know, like I feel like that that is the evolution. So the first thing is no overhauls, right? No overhauls. I give you permission from the Lord of Decluttering on High to do 15 minute sessions.

Tonya Kubo (10:35.042)

Nice, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (10:44.566)

Hmm.

Kathi (10:58.213)

If you have set aside time I give you permission to do up to an hour of decluttering if you’re gonna be going deep on a project because I understand if you’re trying to Declutter a kitchen cabinet It could take 15 minutes. It could take 45 minutes and you don’t want to just do that in 15 minute segments. So Giving yourself focus on 15 minutes

Tonya Kubo (11:18.894)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (11:27.959)

and give yourself permission once at the maximum twice a week, unless you’re moving or something, for an hour session. Tonya, how does this look in your household?

Tonya Kubo (11:40.59)

Well, for us, you know, I think we run kind of like a lot of families with small kids. you know, Monday through Friday is really about survival. And then the weekends are where you try to get things reset. So I do like when we’re not and we have tons of activities. So when we don’t have a ton of activities or if we have at least one down day, I have everybody work on their space, their individual space for an hour.

Kathi (11:49.849)

Yeah.

Kathi (11:53.483)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Kathi (12:09.637)

Mmm.

Tonya Kubo (12:09.942)

Right? So that can be the girls working on their room together for an hour. Sometimes actually I have to put one girl in there all by herself for an hour and then move that girl out and put another girl in because they don’t have the same systems. But that’s what we do. And then in terms of the day to day decluttering, that is all on me. Like there is nobody else in this house that’s going to set aside 15 minutes a day unless we’re in middle of a challenge of some sort to focus on decluttering.

Kathi (12:17.369)

Yeah. Right. Yes.

Kathi (12:27.886)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (12:34.529)

Yeah. So Brian is in charge of things like laundry and stuff like that, right? And so you’re more of the decluttering diva in the household. Okay, no, that totally makes sense. You both are contributing in ways that make sense to you and feel right to you. And I love that. Okay. So breaking those tasks into manageable, manageable chunks. So

Tonya Kubo (12:41.454)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (12:46.541)

Yeah.

Kathi (13:03.833)

Tell me how do you guide your girls through making it manageable to get rid of stuff?

Tonya Kubo (13:11.96)

Well, so for us, it’s never not a conversation. We talk about it in some way every single day. So it can be going through the backpacks, right? So, you know, both of my girls are neurodivergent. There’s just a lot about how their backpacks look that kind of fits both of their archetypes. And so going through and just saying, you know, it’s so much easier to throw away one piece of paper or to go through the pencils and toss the one broken pencil.

Kathi (13:20.323)

Hmm.

Kathi (13:24.922)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:42.426)

each day than it is to have to like go through that backpack at the on Friday and go through 10 crunched up pieces of paper or whatever else is in the bottom of the backpack, right? So that’s part of it is just reinforcing that if we do a little touch every single day, it’s so much easier than if we save it all up to the end of the week.

Kathi (13:52.644)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:04.93)

But then it’s also when they make some headway is giving them reminders. So like with Abby, you know, we’ve just gotten her started where she puts away her own clothes. And it’s like, you know, Abby, if you put it, if you put undies in this drawer and shirts in this drawer and pants in this drawer, it’s so much easier to get dressed in the morning than if you want to shove everything in one drawer. Because that’s really what she wants to do, because she doesn’t actually want to put her stuff away. So she just wants to shove it all together, right? It is.

Kathi (14:24.239)

Mm-hmm.

I don’t blame her. It’s the worst part of laundry. It is the worst part of laundry. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (14:33.366)

I will give you that. It is the worst part of laundry. So those are some things we do and just talk about like see how easy this makes our life isn’t this much easier than it was before.

Kathi (14:42.989)

Isn’t it so interesting that as kids, we buck those systems so much, but as adults, the thing I hear about decluttering so much is I need accountability. I need somebody to be in this with me. And we see what we needed as children. I think the difference is that you really know your girls’ types, and you’re able to say what works for Lily doesn’t work for Abby and vice versa.

Tonya Kubo (14:54.466)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:04.782)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:08.846)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (15:10.489)

And maybe we didn’t have a parent that was quite as in tune to that. So that makes a huge difference. OK, also, setting realistic goals. I know that this has been really hard for me. Like my to-do list at the beginning of the week can look like, do you have a crew coming over? Do you have magical elves that are going to help you with some of this stuff? So.

Tonya Kubo (15:30.53)

Yeah.

Kathi (15:38.853)

How do you keep your own goals realistic? And I’m asking this in a holistic sense because you also have a business, have, mean, so how do you keep your goals realistic throughout the day?

Tonya Kubo (15:46.126)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:52.686)

Well, so for me, I don’t ever allow myself to have more than three items on a list. Like that’s a hard rule. I remember years ago, you know, how I was introduced into the work world. And I think for some of us who didn’t grow up in environments that were organized, we learned organization and whatever was imposed upon us in our first jobs. And so, you know, I was trained by somebody who had this like running task list, we’d have like 25 items.

Kathi (15:57.743)

Mmm.

Kathi (16:12.419)

Right, yes, absolutely.

Tonya Kubo (16:20.812)

and they would just add stuff to the bottom and cross off from the top and then it would just roll over to the next day. So they were always making a new list every day and that would have stuff carried over. And I think that it just, it’s not helpful. It’s not helpful to have a list of 10 items. It’s like, okay, before my head hits the pillow, there are three things I have to get done today. What would those three things be? And there’s some days like today’s a day, for instance, I started with meetings at 4.30. I have not had more than a 30 minute break.

Kathi (16:34.351)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (16:49.824)

and I won’t get a break until six o’clock tonight, right? So that’s gonna be my day. So when I woke up this morning, I had my three priorities that I wrote last night. And it’s like, okay, now that I look at my calendar and I recognize that I am a human who hopes to at some point eat some food, it’s just one thing. What’s the one thing that I have to get done the day before my head hits the pillow? And then that’s how I said it. And I’ve learned to be okay with that. I think that’s the other thing is you have to not be

Kathi (16:53.713)

my word.

Kathi (17:06.937)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (17:12.591)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:20.47)

You have to not let yourself get into the place where you’re feeling guilty for not having more things on your list.

Kathi (17:25.327)

Right, because if only I were superhuman. And it’s like, well, that’s such a ridiculous statement, but for some reason, we don’t expect that of other people, but we expect of ourselves. And that’s something we need to combat. And that I know that when you have challenges, you have a family reward system. Talk a little bit about that.

Tonya Kubo (17:29.421)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:35.114)

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Tonya Kubo (17:48.736)

I do. So when we do like, for instance, we’ve got 30 day 1K coming up, which is like my favorite time ever as of recording. So we have a tracking sheet. There’s four of us. So it’s very easy to find a pack of highlighters that has four colors in it. And everybody gets to mark theirs off. And then our reward system is the winner. In this case, it’s whoever declares more items. The winner gets to pick the prize.

for everybody, right? And sometimes I pick it just because, you know, one year it was like, well we should go to Disneyland for this. No, you’re not going to Disneyland because you declared 200 items. Sorry, it takes more than that. But, you know, being able to say, okay, we’re gonna have a family movie night. That’s the prize. And the winner picks the movie or the winner picks the snacks for family movie night. That’s a big one. Like the girls really love to pick the snacks for family movie night.

Kathi (18:29.615)

Right.

Kathi (18:45.887)

Okay, yeah, okay, so I just have to ask what are some favorite snacks?

Tonya Kubo (18:50.286)

Abby is all about popcorn, popcorn chips. She likes the salty stuff. Lily just wants chocolate. If Lily can have a buffet of chocolate, maybe a little gelato tub, that would make her very happy. She likes a charcuterie. She’s a big fan of a charcuterie too. Yes, yes.

Kathi (18:52.739)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (19:00.387)

Kathi (19:03.883)

Okay. Yes. see, I love all these ideas. This is amazing. Yes. Yeah, they do not have cheap taste. They get that from their father and their mom in some in some regards. Yeah, you know, for us, you know, I think this is an adult thing. Like if I declutter, I can go to bed early and be in a decluttered room and moose and I can snuggle.

Tonya Kubo (19:09.984)

My kids are bougie though. They just are.

Tonya Kubo (19:15.434)

No. Right.

Kathi (19:32.675)

and it’s the best thing ever. And so that makes me super happy. Like that gives me joy, joy, joy down in my heart. And so I love that. I love that idea about that. Okay. So guys, if this is sounding appealing to you, if you need a little bit of accountability, you want to know more, you know, feel.

Tonya Kubo (19:34.132)

Yup.

Kathi (19:57.411)

like you’re being rewarded for this, but you also just know that part of the reward is living in a clutter-free house. If you are willing to get rid of some of that stuff in your house permanently, so you never have to revisit it again, I just wonder if Clutter-free for life might be for you. is, Tonya, tell them a little bit about Clutter-Free for life and how they’ll know if it’s for them.

Tonya Kubo (20:26.668)

Yeah, so, my gosh, I love Clutter-Free For Life as anybody who listens to this show should know by now. So, you Clutter-Free For Life is for the person who is like, you know, enough is enough. Like I’ve tried to do this on my own and it hasn’t been successful for me because I believe that we do have people in Clutter-Free Free For Life who genuinely would succeed with the membership or without it. They just…

Kathi (20:29.589)

I know, I do too. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (20:52.914)

know that they are happier in the process by having community around them. But, you know, for most of us, and I’m thinking of me, I’m thinking of Grace Church who’s over there, if you’ve tried it by yourself and you haven’t been successful and you’re like, you know, there’s just something like I can get it to a place, but I can’t get it beyond that, or I can’t keep it that way, Clutter-Free for Life is designed specifically for that. It’s designed for the person who needs a little extra support.

Kathi (20:55.833)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (21:20.236)

Maybe the person who doesn’t have anybody in their life who understands how hard it is to actually release clutter and to keep things decluttered and they want somebody or would like to have somebody who shares those small wins like, hey, I just decluttered this one drawer. Clutter-free for life is perfect for that person in addition to those people who actually need a plan. And our plans are flexible. They work no matter how big or how small your house is.

They work if you live with other people or if you have your own space, you can rent, can own. We’ve made it a very flexible plan, but it is something, at least you wake up that day knowing what part of the house to focus on and what to do when you’re there.

Kathi (22:05.269)

And we see such huge success stories over in Clutter-Free for Life. It’s inspiring.

Tonya Kubo (22:10.858)

We do. And you know what, what’s funny is what some, each person when they say is like, this is what changed everything for me. It’s always different. You know, for some it’s the weekly coaching session. And it’s not because we like boss them around, right? But it’s because they get to show up. They get to look around and go, Hey, I’m not the only one who struggles. There’s, know, 10 people on this call, 20 people on this call who have the same struggle. We talk through.

Kathi (22:21.54)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:38.412)

like what works for us. Like I just got a great tip from somebody last week during a coaching session that’s totally changed our kitchen. And it was, my gosh. So shout out to Natasha, who’s in Clutter-Free for Life. We were talking about like ways to organize small spaces like bathrooms and stuff where you don’t have closets. And the idea came up, the little shoe boxes like the Sterilite plastic shoe boxes with the lid are a great way if you…

Kathi (22:46.031)

Do tell! You have to tell!

Kathi (22:51.019)

I love Natasha. Yeah.

Kathi (23:03.471)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (23:06.4)

if you have things that are just like lots of odds and ends that get lost in a drawer, well, what it made me think of is like, I have appliances that have lots of pieces. So think of like your food processor has all those things that come with it and you’re always looking for a random piece. So I was like, what if we got these shoe boxes and I put all my meat grinder attachments in one and I put all my food processor things in another and we have our sushi-making stuff in another.

Kathi (23:17.219)

Yeah, right.

Kathi (23:28.495)

Yeah, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (23:35.038)

And it all stacks beautifully all modularly in a little cupboard. But I’m not having to dig through drawers and go, well, this is kind of an odd shape. So it goes here and this is really tiny. So it goes there. And Brian was super excited, right? Because Brian was just like, my gosh, now I just have to pull out that one little box and everything I need is going to be in.

Kathi (23:50.277)

It’s amazing.

Kathi (23:57.943)

It’s you know, I have that kind of system, but it’s under my stairs in the Harry Potter closet where Yes, where you just have these these tubs that pull out and all my quazen art stuff is there and yeah It’s such a good idea. Yes, absolutely Well guys, you know the thing I love the most about clutter-free for life is we’re supporting people not just in their decluttering but that decluttering

Tonya Kubo (24:03.456)

I love the Harry Potter closet though.

Tonya Kubo (24:08.396)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (24:11.991)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (24:26.797)

is the undergirding to so much more in their lives. It’s the undergirding to buying less because you can find stuff in your closet. It’s the undergirding to paying your bills on time. It’s the undergirding to cooking more because your kitchen is not in chaos. And we have a sale going on right now that this runs through December 10th.

Tonya Kubo (24:30.136)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (24:43.48)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (24:54.981)

Clutter-Free for life is 2.99 a year, but if you buy it on this sale for, know, before December 10th, you can get it for $118. It’s a huge discount because we love to have everybody kind of come in at the same time. It saves us a lot of time and energy and that’s how we support it. And we would love to have you join us today.

You can go to the link in these show notes or if you just go to Kathi Lipp’s Clutterfree Academy, know, look over there. We’re going to have all sorts of information about it over there. So, and if you have questions, feel free to ask us questions over there because we would love to be able to support you in that. Tonya, what’s one thing you would like to encourage people with if they’re kind of on the fence about this?

Tonya Kubo (25:32.685)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (25:47.086)

if they’re on the fence, they just need to reach out to me. Seriously, just talk to me. I would say, you know, my email address is tonya@kathilipp.org. They can get information @kathi.link/CFL. But honestly, let’s just have a conversation. What I love about our community is we’ve got members. I mean, they’ll tell you like what they love. They’ll tell you what was hard for them when they started. They’ll tell you why they stay.

Kathi (25:50.147)

Okay.

Kathi (26:02.297)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (26:16.766)

We’re very honest because the truth is it doesn’t benefit us if it’s not a good fit for you either So we just want to see you. I mean, I would love to have you try it We do a 30-day guarantee. So we’ll give you your money back within 30 days if it’s not for you, but if You’re looking around and you’re like I want to live differently and I just don’t quite know how to do that day-to-day I really would encourage you to check us out.

Kathi (26:22.584)

It’s so true.

Tonya Kubo

Thanks for having me.

Kathi (26:41.925)

Tonya, thanks so much. And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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