#667 &#8211; Clutter Free Finances: Taking Control of Subscriptions

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And we are talking money today. We are talking money, money, money. And I am here talking money with my friend Tonya Kubo, who, you know, we just have so much of it. We don’t know what to do with it. That’s the problem, right Tonya? Yes.

Tonya Kubo (00:33)

Right, right. That money

tree in the backyard is like worse than a lemon tree.

Kathi Lipp (00:37)

It’s been so…

Now, okay, did watch, speaking of trees, I watched a video last night of somebody talking about, he’s in construction and somebody, they were working on their house and they said, ? you should probably tell your workers not to eat the apples off of that tree. And he said, my goodness, I’m so sorry.

Normally when we go and work on people’s houses, they have no problem with it. And she said, no, it’s no problem. It’s just that those have not been processed. And he said, well, what do you mean? She says, well, those are like backyard apples, but they’re not store apples. he’s like, so tell me what’s wrong with them? And well, they haven’t been processed like as if they were going through a store and we just don’t want any of your workers to get sick.

And so she honestly thought that the apples at the store were a different kind of apple, like a different variety than the one. And he’s like, well, why would you have an apple tree? And she says, it just looks pretty. And first of all, I’ve had apple trees before. Those are the messiest trees in the world if you’re not constantly eating them. OK, so that was a tangent that we didn’t need to go on. But you know,

Tonya Kubo (01:42)

Hmm.

They are super.

Kathi Lipp (02:04)

Because apple tree, well, don’t we all wish that we had an apple tree in our backyard now because we know some prices are gonna be going up here pretty soon if they haven’t already gone up for you. And we had a challenge in our Clutter Free for Life, which is our paid group. this was an impromptu challenge, but it was based on something I’ve been working on, I would say for the past five months. And.

Tonya Kubo (02:10)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:31)

I just realized it’s very easy for me. We have become the this is the decade of the subscription. I know there were subscriptions before. I know there will be subscriptions in the 2030s, but this is where people said you can’t start a business unless it’s subscription based. Maybe it’s been longer than this, but this is where like I can. I have noticed that subscriptions keep.

Tonya Kubo (02:41)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:02)

I anything I want to buy they want it. I was trying to buy socks the other day. They wanted me to buy a subscription to socks. I’m like, yeah, I’m not doing that. Like I’m not changing out my feet. I don’t wear that many socks. It’s nutso we want to be subscribed to our food. We want to be subscribed to delivery. We to be subscribed to our television. And that was not all the unnecessary expenses in my budget, but it was a lot of them.

Tonya Kubo (03:09)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:32)

And I don’t know about other people who are listening, but I do feel like I have some insight after doing this experiment in Clutter Free for Life. Because I challenge people, just for the moment, could you save $1,000 a year just by going through your budget and canceling subscriptions, canceling things that are coming up that you are no longer using? And while I feel like I crushed this,

You crushed it like a tin can. And I was able to eliminate about $2,500 worth of reoccurring expenses for the year of our Lord 2025. And some of it was through canceling things, some of it was renegotiate. There were so many different varieties. But Tonya, how much did you end up cutting?

Tonya Kubo (04:14)

Mm-hmm.

So by the 28th of February, we actually landed at just shy of 5,000. I think it’s like 4,994 or something or other. Like ridiculousness.

Kathi Lipp (04:37)

It’s crazy.

Oh my gosh, did you so, when I find

$6 more and just, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (04:46)

Well, was Brian and I was like, what if I cancel this? He’s like, Tonya doesn’t count if you cancel it this month and then live to regret it and restart it next month.

Kathi Lipp (04:54)

Right, right. Well, okay.

You know what? This may be my first time that I ever disagree with Brian Kubo because we all know that I’m a Brian Kubo fan. But if you cancel something to see if you can live without it and you realize, yeah, no, this is really important to me. I think that’s a victory, but I understand his premise. So I don’t disagree with him, but I do think that there

Tonya Kubo (05:10)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (05:23)

there is value in saying, I’m gonna pull back, nope, I’ve decided this is worth the $12 a month. So I wanna get into this because I think it’s really, I think it’s a great challenge to see, could you eliminate $1,000 of reoccurring expenses in your year? And you think, well, $1,000 over an entire year doesn’t feel like very much, but.

Tonya Kubo (05:26)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:51)

Could you use an extra $80 a month? I know I can. And maybe if you haven’t been paying attention to your budget, maybe you could eliminate $2,000. It’s not that you’re not paying attention, but at one point in your life, at least for me, at one point in my life, Brit Box was very important to me. And then it became not so important to me. At one point in my life, I was helping, I bought a subscription for my kids.

Tonya Kubo (06:03)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:20)

that

was very important to them. Well, they don’t use it anymore. So why am I paying for it? So these are some things. why, I really believe that clutter and finances go together. Okay, so tell me what you think about that because it’s important to me.

Tonya Kubo (06:24)

Right. Right.

they totally do. Totally do.

Well, feel

like clutter and finances go together for a few things, right? So we know that we cluttery people really struggle with overwhelm, we struggle with decision fatigue. you you sign up, subscriptions are the bane of our existence, because you sign up and then they’re just like out of sight, out of mind. And then you, you know, in some cases, and this was something that Brian had figured out a few months ago,

Kathi Lipp (06:53)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:10)

you’re subscribed to the same thing in three different ways. So that sort of stuff though, like the cluttery person’s overwhelming decision fatigue, I think leads to a lot of overspending, duplicate spending, also just unintentional spending. Like if you knew that was coming out of your account every single month, you would have canceled it long time ago, right? So there’s that piece, but then there’s the other piece where it just, I think it just weighs on our mind. I mean,

Kathi Lipp (07:27)

Great.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:39)

Ten charges coming out of your account every month are ten different things to keep track of.

Kathi Lipp (07:46)

It’s so true. this is why it’s so much like clutter, because it’s very easy to mindlessly have things come into the house and then they accumulate. You have to take care of them. instead of being intentional about what comes in, it’s very easy. Subscriptions are just habits that are unexamined habits sometimes.

Tonya Kubo (07:52)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:14)

I know, you know, when I was in my first marriage, when I first got married and we were paying bills, you you’d sit down with your checkbook and you had your stack of envelopes and you had your stamps. And I think it was 13 cents at one point. I mean, like, you know, we’re talking back in the olden days and you knew every dollar that was going out of your account. That’s just not the case anymore.

Tonya Kubo (08:23)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:40)

And

so it’s very easy to let those things build up without doing it. So Tonya, I told people was go through your bank account and see, you what are those reoccurring charges? What are those things that are coming out that maybe you’re not paying attention to? But you took it to a whole new level because you realize they’re getting money from us in ways that we may not even be aware of.

Tonya Kubo (08:50)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

yeah. Okay. So I feel like here’s what’s really important is to understand that I have my own business. So part of why I could save almost $5,000 a year is because I did this in my business account in addition to in my personal account. But what we’re, it’s all real money. It affects how much I get to pay myself. Right? So that, that counts too. But to your point, you know, on my business side, there’s only like

Kathi Lipp (09:17)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Witcher is all real money, by the way. It’s all real mo- Yeah.

Exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (09:40)

one way things come in or two ways, right? I either use my business debit card or I use PayPal. That’s it. That’s how I get charged on things. But I was not prepared for this, Kathi, but you’re right. I figured it out really fast. On the personal side, there are the bank account charges, right? The things that use your debit card. But then if you have credit cards, there’s the things that you put on a credit card and forgot you put on the credit card.

Kathi Lipp (09:47)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (10:08)

And

if you don’t max out your credit cards, how would you really pay any attention? It’s like if your credit cards are always at zero, you’ll notice. And if your credit cards are always maxed out, you’ll notice. But if it’s anywhere in between, you wouldn’t. But then what we also discovered was PayPal subscriptions. So I had subscriptions hiding out in PayPal that I had no other record of that had to be canceled in PayPal, couldn’t be canceled anyplace else.

Kathi Lipp (10:16)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Hmm. Okay, yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah. Right.

Tonya Kubo (10:36)

which then led us on the trail of Google Pay or Apple Pay. Sometimes you have subscriptions directly through those. anybody who has done any of those, like if you do a lot of online shopping, right, you’ll notice that some, there’s shop accounts and they collect, they’re the ones who are facilitating your subscription service. There’s links.

Kathi Lipp (10:45)

Mm.

Guess.

my goodness.

Tonya Kubo (11:04)

So Kathi, I found subscriptions hiding in like six different locations just on my personal site.

Kathi Lipp (11:12)

It’s insane, right?

Tonya Kubo (11:13)

Right. And part of how I noticed was a couple hit that I wasn’t expecting. So the PayPal thing was I had an Evernote subscription. I started using Evernote in 2016 when my mom died. I’m like, no, no, it would have been 2015. So when my mom died, I needed a way for us to have all the information associated with her death and I needed to be able to access it at my computer.

Kathi Lipp (11:21)

Mm-hmm.

Mm, right.

Okay.

Tonya Kubo (11:41)

or on my phone and I needed Brian to be able to access it. And Evernote at that time was the easiest way to do that. So did you just hear me say my mom died in 2015? Yeah, so I haven’t actually accessed Evernote for anything else since then. And yet I got this notification from PayPal that they had processed a charge. And I’m thinking like, I don’t have anything coming out of PayPal. And it’s $120. And I go and look.

Kathi Lipp (11:47)

Mm-hmm.

Right? Ten years ago?

Tonya Kubo (12:11)

And it’s like, I’m still paying for Evernote?

Kathi Lipp (12:16)

Wow.

Tonya Kubo (12:17)

Why would I think about it? I haven’t touched it in years. But so that’s a charge that got canceled.

Kathi Lipp (12:20)

Right. That’s insane.

Yeah. it’s heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking. And you think about the money that has been wasted. But here’s we’re going to reframe it. The money that will no longer be coming out of your account. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:28)

Mm-hmm.

Exactly. Exactly.

And you know what? I know that we have a lot more to talk about on the savings front, but we should probably take a break, pay some bills, and then we’ll come right back.

Kathi Lipp (12:43)

Yeah. Okay. Yep.

Tonya Kubo (12:51)

And we’re back and we are talking about how we are saving. So Kathi, I just shared how I cut expenses that I kind of didn’t even realize I was spending for maybe a decade or so. How about you?

Kathi Lipp (12:52)

Okay.

You know, so a lot of things I did I realized a lot of my things were hidden inside of Amazon So, you know like Brit box and thing Acorn TV, you know things that you’re like, I’m totally into this show Well, I’m into that show and then I never use it again. So that was a problem and I I had to

Tonya Kubo (13:14)

Mmm.

You

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:34)

I had to reframe some of my thinking from, know, when it’s clutter, it’s like, do I need this to with subscriptions? Do I use this? Not will I use this? Because and you know, they they really play with our mentality saying, well, if you cancel it now, if you resubscribe later, it’s going to be more expensive.

Tonya Kubo (13:43)

Mm-hmm.

was hoping you

would address this because I think that holds us, Cluttery people in bondage, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (13:59)

It’s so true because but I I had to think about okay, but if I cancel it and I resubscribe a year later That will cover me forever. That will cover me forever so and I am not paying for anything that I’m not using and so one of the things that I did was what are the alternatives so One thing that ended up being so interesting

Tonya Kubo (14:18)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:28)

was I was looking over all my subscriptions. This is something that’s really interesting. The subscriptions you actually use, are there other benefits that come with that subscription? So one of them for us was we were paying for Paramount Plus, which is like CBS. Because we use it all the time. Well, come to find out, our Walmart subscription had free Paramount Plus.

Tonya Kubo (14:37)

Mm-hmm.

includes it.

Kathi Lipp (14:57)

It included the one with the commercials, which Roger, every time we watch commercials says, we should pay for the, and I’m like, no, stop that, stop. You can sit through a commercial. Go to the bathroom, go put some more ice in your drink. that’s right, and I’ll scream, it’s coming back on! But what are the alternatives?

Tonya Kubo (15:05)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Go do what we did in the 80s, Roger.

Kathi Lipp (15:23)

we have become very impatient and I blame social media and I know you love social media, but I’m gonna blame social media here for something because it used to be a movie would come out and yeah, you talk about it with your friends, but you could see it. You could wait six months until it was out on VHS or on disc or whatever like that. But social media makes you feel like you are missing the most important thing in the world if you’re not at Wicked on opening night.

You know, it comes to find out you will live. You probably will live. Now there are things that will be exciting for you and you’ll want to go see, but you know what? It’s okay if you don’t do that. What are some alternatives? Can I wait to read that fiction book until it’s available at my library? Because there I can get it for free. What free apps could I use? Do I really need another subscription?

Tonya Kubo (15:58)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:22)

Or should I go investigate what’s actually on YouTube? Because there’s a lot of stuff on YouTube. Tubi, T-U-B-I, is a free streaming service. And if you’re like, yeah, but it doesn’t have this thing that I want to watch. One of the things that we are doing is we canceled our Apple subscription. We canceled a few other subscriptions, and we’re using the free versions, or we’re not using anything. But I will go back and subscribe.

Tonya Kubo (16:27)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:50)

You maybe every six months for a month and I’ll watch on Apple the morning show and Severance and like, you know, all the things I’ve been waiting for is going to be an awesome month. But, you know, for right now I can watch things on Paramount Plus. We do have Max, which has a lot of great shows. So we’re using that. But when it comes time for me to go to Apple, I’ll cancel my Max subscription for three to nine months.

Tonya Kubo (16:57)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:20)

and

wait till the things that I wanna watch are on there and it’s okay. I probably will not die. So I wanna let people know that every July we do something great in our Clutter Free Academy group and we do a Low by July. And so can you give us a little glimpse into what we do in our free group in the Low by July?

Tonya Kubo (17:24)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so Low By July is simply about paying attention to your spending. So it’s not a spending freeze. It’s not, my gosh, I can’t drive across town because I’m not allowed to fill up my gas tank. It’s simply trying to minimize the impulse purchases we make, right? So it’s really looking at, you know, do I need to go to Starbucks every day?

Kathi Lipp (18:05)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (18:17)

Do I need to go to Starbucks once a week? Are there alternatives that maybe I want to explore? And if ultimately you say, get so much joy out of going to Starbucks once a week compared to making coffee at home, then hey, that’s okay. So it’s really just figuring out how can you be more intentional with your spending and really focus on what makes sense for you and your family. And we do it in the free group because we know that the biggest…

Kathi Lipp (18:30)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (18:45)

contributor to clutter is what we bring in the house. So if we can minimize what comes in the house, then our in-home decluttering efforts have a greater impact.

Kathi Lipp (18:48)

Mm-hmm. Great.

Yeah, it’s so easy to just do the same things out of habit You know, this is gonna sound ridiculous But I have been buying too much asparagus. Let me just be honest. Let me let me confess here There has been too much asparagus buying in my life. I’ve been buying the Costco size asparagus it’s just me and Roger and while we enjoy asparagus we don’t enjoy it that much and

Tonya Kubo (19:16)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:24)

What I’ve also come to notice in my patterns is we tend to eat a ton of asparagus when we’re grilling. But we’re not grilling right now because it’s March. And so to just take a step back and look at some habits that maybe you have that has been causing you to spend money. And so Tonya today, I’m gonna throw away some asparagus and I’m gonna do it guilt free. But what I’m not gonna do is put it

Tonya Kubo (19:31)

Hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:53)

back on my Costco shopping list, I’m gonna put it back on there with a little parentheses that says May, because Mother’s Day is when we can pretty much guarantee we’re not gonna get more snow. And so this is the same thing. I’m gonna ask you to look at your habits. so a couple of things I wanna encourage you to do. Go over to the Facebook group, which is Clutterfree Academy, Kathi Lipps Clutterfree Academy.

Tonya Kubo (19:55)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:24)

and join us. So when July comes, you’ll know when we do our low by July, you’ll be you’ll already be a part of the group. You’ll already know. But I also want you to do something else. I would love this is my challenge to the people who are listening. Do a quick audit. What subscriptions or services are you paying for but not using? And we had somebody in our paid group, Clutter Free for Life, who said, I’m not doing this.

Tonya Kubo (20:41)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:53)

I’m not doing it because I grew up without a lot of money and I don’t want to be told what I can and cannot do and I want to enjoy these little luxuries in my life. Can I tell you that’s the exact opposite? I don’t want you, I don’t want you canceling things that bring you joy. I think many of us could eliminate a thousand dollars just by getting rid of the things that we are literally not using.

Tonya Kubo (21:11)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:24)

Or the next level is maybe we’re using it sometimes, but it’s not worth the amount of money we’re paying for it in proportion to the joy that we’re getting from it. And that’s what I want you to think about. if you’re willing to take the challenge, what I would encourage you to do is get into, just keep a little Excel spreadsheet or even on a notepad and go through your bank statement.

Tonya Kubo (21:36)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:53)

and figure out what those charges are because they do a really good job of calling them different things so you don’t know what you’re actually being charged for. So one of things I would encourage you to do is just take that name and put it into Google if you can, you know, if it’s, you know, Starbusters. Okay, what’s Starbusters? Is that a Starbucks, you know, sign off? Is it Starlink? I don’t know.

Tonya Kubo (22:15)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (22:22)

but find out what it is. Somebody else will have Googled that and they can tell you what you’re paying for. And get rid of the things that are not actively improving your life. I wonder if many of our people could be saving 200, 500, $1,000 a year. Guys, so do the quick audit, get rid of some of those big ticket items. Next time, what we’re gonna be talking about,

Tonya Kubo (22:29)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:51)

we’re gonna talk to Tonya about how she renegotiated some of her bills. And I did one too. Let me just tell you, my savings were less than yours, but they all count. then cutting down on some of those reoccurring charges that are not bringing joy to your life. This was a great episode. Thank you so much, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (22:55)

? yes I did do that.

Hahaha

? thank you for having me. This was great.

Kathi Lipp (23:16)

Okay, well.

Tonya Kubo (23:19)

And I think we are about at time, Kathi, but I want to say that I really hope that everybody listening takes that next step to do a quick audit. You are going to be amazed. And please make it judgment free. Don’t be like me. Don’t be all sad and feel like you have to go to confession in order to talk about the Evernote subscription that you had for a decade and you didn’t know about. Just judgment free, shame free. Just do that audit and see what you find.

Kathi Lipp (23:32)

Yeah, yeah, right.

You

Tonya Kubo (23:46)

And we will see you next time when we talk about those big ticket savings. So you have been listening to ClutterFree Academy. Now go create the ClutterFree life you have always wanted to live.

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

Apr 22, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo delve into the importance of a tidy nightstand for a better night's sleep and a more organized life. They discuss Kathi's recent purchase of new nightstands with built-in outlets, her nighttime routine...

#665 – Declutter Your Spice Cabinet: From Chaos to Cooking Bliss

Apr 15, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo tackle one of the most deceptively frustrating spots in your kitchen: the spice cabinet. If you’ve ever bought a second (or sixth) bottle of basil because you couldn’t find the first one, or had cumin...

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

Apr 8, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this laugh-out-loud and surprisingly transformational episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep—literally—into the drawer that gets no love but causes a whole lot of frustration: your sock and underwear drawer. From chicken footprints and...

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

by Roger Lipp | Apr 22, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 2 comments

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo delve into the importance of a tidy nightstand for a better night’s sleep and a more organized life. They discuss Kathi’s recent purchase of new nightstands with built-in outlets, her nighttime routine essentials, and practical strategies for keeping your bedroom clutter-free. Whether it’s finding the right furniture, using drawer dividers, or setting up a night basket, Kathi and Tonya offer a step-by-step system to help listeners turn their nightstand into a launchpad for an organized day. And don’t miss the listener challenge that encourages you to declutter your own nightstand and reap the benefits.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Sand & Stable Scarlett 2 – Drawer End Table and Built-In Outlets & Reviews | Wayfair

Download the Free Guide:
The Nightstand Reset – your 10-minute guide to a more peaceful evening

FYI: Some product links may be affiliate links. If you buy, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for your support!

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with Tonya Kubo, leader of all things clutter free. Tonya, we are back into small spaces. We love a good small space. you know, our last podcast was our spiciest episode ever. And now it’s Tonya and Kathi after dark.

Tonya Kubo (00:40)
I you hide these from me just to get my reaction.

Kathi Lipp (00:44)
come on. actually that one that one I just came up with.

And let me tell you, on one of my favorite podcasts, Wirecutter. At the end of the podcast, they ask, what’s your favorite thing that you’ve bought recently? And so Tonya, want you to, I want to pretend I’m on Wirecutter and I want you to ask me that question. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (01:10)
Okay, so Kathi Lipp, what is your

favorite thing you have bought recently?

Kathi Lipp (01:14)
I’m so glad you asked. I’m so, so glad you asked because I’m so excited about this. And I bought it. I actually don’t have it. So maybe check with me in six months to see if I still love it. But can I tell you, you know, something I have discovered Tonya is I am really good at decluttering and I am a total cheapskate when it comes to organization. Like I’ve, I’ve thought for years, I don’t need to

Tonya Kubo (01:24)
Ha ha ha ha!

Ha!

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:44)
buy all these wacky organizational tools. don’t need, and then I’ve come to find out sometimes you do. You’re creating the system, but to keep the system going, sometimes you’re like, okay, I just need to do this. And so I have finally broken down and I have bought new nightstands. Now I haven’t bought a new nightstand. I’m not exaggerating. Since I was married the first time,

Tonya Kubo (01:47)
Mm-hmm.

I’m right.

Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
And that was in 1990. So I have not bought a nightstand for myself in 35 years. So I’m going to tell you about this nightstand. So the nightstands we have now, because they were passed down when we bought this house, so you could say we bought it since we bought a house and these came with it, but I digress. They’re very open. And so you see everything.

Tonya Kubo (02:17)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:43)
And

I don’t like that look. And no, I am not a Swedish girlie. I wish I could be, but that is just not how I live my life. And so I’m reverting back to the nightstand of my youth, which was two drawers. And one drawer was for everything you need every single night. And the other drawer is for things you may need less option, but you definitely want to have.

Tonya Kubo (02:45)
You don’t like the open concept nightstand, is that what you’re telling me?

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:12)
And now these new nightstands have in the top of the nightstand, they have built-in chargers.

Tonya Kubo (03:23)
What? Like, like chargers for a phone or like, like outlets for like a regular cord?

Kathi Lipp (03:24)
Yes. Yes.

Outlets

outlets so you can put your USB cords in them and Yes, and can I tell you how excited I am about this little update and the reviews on these are really good I’ll put them. It’s on Wayfair. I’ll put a link so you guys can see them, but That is what we’re talking about today is nightstands because we’re going through the house and we’re doing all these little micro spaces and

Tonya Kubo (03:36)
God

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (03:59)
These microspaces make the difference day to day of how we operate our life. So let me ask you about your nightstand situation, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (04:02)
Mm-hmm.

well, mean, my nightstand situation is not that exciting because the way our house is set up. So we have one nightstand and that’s on Brian’s side of the bed and it is one drawer and a shelf at the bottom. So it’s kind of a hybrid of what you have. And then on my side, because the bed has to be pushed so close to the dresser, I just use the top of the dresser as my nightstand, which is problematic because I don’t get the benefit of drawers because it’s our dresser drawers.

Kathi Lipp (04:16)
my goodness.

Yes. Yes, yes.

okay.

Right.

Yes. Yeah, that I think you got the short stick.

Tonya Kubo (04:40)
totally got the short end of the stick. And if you come into our bedroom, it makes him look like Brian is the organized person. And I am not because of course for him, he just tucks everything into the drawer before he like leaves in the morning. Meanwhile, everything, you know, like my eye drops and all of my stuff has to be on top of the dresser. So it’s just not an ideal situation. It’s one of those things where we’ve talked about like,

Kathi Lipp (04:50)
Okay.

Beautiful.

Mmm, yes.

Tonya Kubo (05:06)
Well, we should do it differently, we’re like, okay, well we have to wait till we buy a new dresser and then we can do this and then we can do that. And then suddenly I’m tired. I don’t want to change.

Kathi Lipp (05:10)
Yeah.

Right. It’s

the give a mouse a cookie of nightstands and nobody needs that, right? So I have found part of the reason that I’ve made this change is a couple of reasons. One, Roger has a CPAP and we need a place to put all of that nonsense, right? But the other thing is I have noticed when my nightstand gets too backed up,

Tonya Kubo (05:18)
Exactly!

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:42)
I

actually don’t sleep well because I’m afraid my phone’s going to fall off. I’m afraid about that glass of water. Like, and I at night, I don’t want to spend time cleaning all that nonsense up, but I really do feel. And this is this. If you listen to our podcast listeners from Dr. Vicky Casper, where she was talking about getting better sleep, she says a neat organized bedroom.

Tonya Kubo (05:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:12)
Impacts

your sleep in really really good ways And so I know that a neat surface actually helps me fall asleep faster It it feels more invite. I love walking into our room when the bed is made the nightstand is clear and it’s like, It’s just all waiting for me. Does that make sense? I don’t know Yeah

Tonya Kubo (06:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it totally makes sense. And I also

think that, you know, I’m a big proponent of routines, like having a solid morning routine and an evening routine. And my thing is, your evening routine should be all about making your morning easier. And your morning routine is all about making the end of your day easier. And so I can imagine having a tidy nightstand really makes the mornings easier at your house.

Kathi Lipp (06:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to sink into bed. And, you know, I have a little routine that I do each night. And to have all of that there and then to have what I need in the morning, my phone, my glasses, all that kind of stuff. It just makes everything better. OK. go ahead.

Tonya Kubo (07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so was going to say, so, so, you know, we’ve talked about the value of a tidy nightstand. We talked about a couple of different nightstand situations. So let’s just say our listeners not there yet, Kathi. Our listener doesn’t have the open concept nightstand that is soon to be replaced by a closed concept nightstand.

Kathi Lipp (07:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I get it.

I

am waiting for the FedEx guy right here. I am.

Tonya Kubo (07:44)
Yeah,

with power associated with it. Like that’s my favorite part of the whole thing. So walk us through how to get started. Okay, the nightstand is out of control. What do we do?

Kathi Lipp (07:48)
my goodness, right?

Yes, me too.

Yeah.

Okay. And by the way, I have been perfect. My nightstand that I’ve had has been perfectly serviceable. It’s just not my ideal situation. And right now I wanted to do something for me. So it doesn’t matter what your nightstand situation is. It all starts the same way. So first, again, as, as long time listeners, this podcast has been going for a decade now.

Tonya Kubo (08:17)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:26)
I’ve always said don’t pull everything out at once and put it in the middle of the room, but we’re talking about super small spaces here, tiny, tiny, tiny spaces. So I’m gonna tell you, pull everything out. I want you to pull out the books, the cords, the lotions, the random socks. I mean, we’ve all been there, right? Let me talk about other things I have in there, like the tweezers, the chapstick, and then you’re gonna sort this into a couple of different piles, so keep.

Tonya Kubo (08:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:55)
What truly belongs? So do you have medications that you need to take at night? That phone charger, your chapstick, maybe you have a little vase you want to keep on that nightstand. I like to a pin at my nightstand, my glasses. So I’m going to keep those. And then another pile is relocate. What has wandered there that does not need to be there?

Tonya Kubo (09:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:23)
I’m embarrassed. I don’t know. You I have weird stuff there. And also I have too many pairs of glasses. I don’t need like four pairs of glasses right there.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
Okay, do you want to the weird stuff that’s in Brian’s drawer when I clean it out? Candy wrappers. He hides the candy wrappers because you know he’s like sneaking the candy so that one of the two children doesn’t see and then he stashes the wrappers in the drawer.

Kathi Lipp (09:36)
I don’t know, do I?

yes.

Well, you know what? Go off, King. That’s all I have to say. Brian has lost a ton of weight. He’s gotten so healthy. Whatever candy he wants, Brian gets. So…

Tonya Kubo (09:55)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

to say it’s so funny is I’ll go to his drawer to like look for something because that’s oftentimes where we have a backup charger. I’m like, of all, I didn’t know we had peeps and there were twicks in this house and nobody told me I am not okay with this.

Kathi Lipp (10:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. Okay,

can I just go a little off topic? I think what I need to put out into the universe, because I have dropped this hint too many times and have been ignored by Roger Lipp, the Japanese assortment of Twix. Have you guys, you seem like the household that would have had these at some point.

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

yes. Yeah,

well we’ve had the Japanese assortment of Kit Kats. There’s like 40 different versions. Yeah, 40 different versions. Yes. I’m just gonna tell you right now, strawberries and champagne, hard pass. It tastes like rotten grapes. Just gonna tell you right there. I did a whole like Instagram live on it because they were so bad. So bad.

Kathi Lipp (10:45)
That’s what I meant! I’m sorry KitKat, not Twix. Yes.

really? Okay. Eww!

I had no

idea. Okay, but I want to try the rest of them. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (11:05)
The rest of them are amazing, especially

the ones that they have that you’re supposed to broil. Yes, we can talk about this after the episode.

Kathi Lipp (11:10)
What? Okay, we have, we

have real, no, people will email me. Okay, just tell me, how do you broil a Kit Kat?

Tonya Kubo (11:20)
It is a regular KitKat, but you’re supposed to like broil it and they have these in-depth instructions about what the degrees are and how long because you have to be careful because it starts to melt. But it’s I think it’s toasted marshmallow flavor. And then so you broil it to like toast it. But it ends up just being a melty mess and it’s delicious. It’s worth the mess.

Kathi Lipp (11:27)
Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Okay,

so guys if you want to know how to do that I would say go on AI or google because I I don’t know but I We need to figure this out. Okay, so you have your keep pile things you want to keep in your nightstand You have your relocate? Apparently candy wrapper. Well the next the kitkat candy wrappers go into the next day discard recycle trash old receipts anything that’s expired etc, etc and

Tonya Kubo (11:45)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (12:08)
Before you reload this is the time to get out the handy vac you want to go deep in there you want to get all of that cleaned out give it a good wipe let it air out a little bit and a clean slate helps you see how much space you really have and then We’re gonna we we’re going to I want you to wipe down the top, too I want you to you know, just whether you use furniture polish a Clorox wipe, whatever it is

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Just make sure you’re starting off with a clean slate.

Tonya Kubo (12:43)
That sounds good. you know what? It’s time for us to take a little break before we get to the rest of it. But when we come back from the break, stay listening because we’re going to talk about the right furniture, the right accessories, these important things that will help you maximize your space. We’ll be right back.

Kathi Lipp (12:47)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:02)
All right, and we are back talking right furniture, accessories, and really getting to the practical. How do you do the thing? How do you have an effective nightstand? So Kathi okay, so you’ve upgraded to the two drawer nightstand with built-in outlets. I was hoping that you would talk to us a little bit more about.

Kathi Lipp (13:18)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (13:24)
why you felt like that was the right solution given your current circumstances, because you already told us what you have now is actually serviceable.

Kathi Lipp (13:27)
Yeah.

It’s totally fine, but I will say I did have to put like a basket on the second layer. know, so we have a drawer up top, which is a very thin drawer and then a, just a shelf at the bottom and I had to put a basket on that. So that would be the basket I pulled out at night with like my face cream, all that kind of stuff. So we’ll talk more about that in a second, but I just wanted, I wanted to be able to close things up at night and just be done, but also,

Tonya Kubo (14:01)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:02)
Be able to see what I have and what I need and so this little tiny drawer I have it’s fine But it means everything has to be stored laying down and it just it wasn’t smooth Let me just say that it wasn’t smooth and so I I do have a really lovely solution that my my lamp is built is attached on the wall

Tonya Kubo (14:31)
Mmm. That’s nice.

Kathi Lipp (14:31)
So it doesn’t take any space up.

that’s really nice because that can take a lot of your usable space top. I just, at 57, I wanted to walk into my room and not have it be so utilitarian, but just to be lovely. If I wanted to, you know, we have wildflowers here. I want a little vase of wildflowers. I want my book to be on my nightstand.

Tonya Kubo (14:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:58)
I don’t want a bunch of medications, know, tissues, that kind of stuff. I want it to look lovely. And I will say one other thing I’ve done that this would not work for my friend Brian Kubo, who is trying to sneak his candy. But we have put between our nightstand and our bed, just a thin, clear, waste paper basket that, you know, so for that occasional tissue, that occasional candy wrapper, like the things we can just throw them in there and

Tonya Kubo (15:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:26)
It does help keep that space a little bit neater and tidier.

Tonya Kubo (15:31)
Yeah, well, I can imagine, you know, I know for us we have blown through charging cables because of tripping, tripping over the cord. So this sounds to me like that would solve that problem as well.

Kathi Lipp (15:37)
Mmm. Yes. Yes.

Yes, I think, you know, and the chords make, we have so many chords in our life. And I get sick of looking at chords. I mean, it’s not, is it going to disrupt my whole day? But no, to have less chords is kind of a beautiful thing.

Tonya Kubo (15:49)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, and then I just want to say like on the inside drawers, we’ve talked in prior episodes about the honeycomb or box dividers. So I just think it’s important to highlight the fact that if you have drawers, we’re not necessarily saying just dump everything in there equally. There are drawer solutions in terms of organizing as well.

Kathi Lipp (16:05)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

No, no.

Yeah, I’m gonna wait till I get these drawers in my house and then I’m going to Put the dividers in that we’ve talked about, you know, these are spring-loaded so that they’ll fit in almost any drawer and The honeycomb box so I can put little things in there. But yeah, that makes it so much Everything’s standing up. You can see everything at once

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so what else do you have for us?

Kathi Lipp (16:45)
Well, you I’ve told you about my night basket before, in case nobody’s heard about this before. This is just a basket I use at night. So I have things in there like I’ve got a pill organizer that, you know, there are a couple of medications I take at night. So I put those in there. I have face wipes, the Neutrogena face wipes, because I’ll just be honest, when it gets past seven o’clock,

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:12)
If it’s a choice between me getting out of bed to wash my face or laying in bed with my Neutrogena wipes or not getting out of bed at all and going to bed to sleep, Neutrogena wipes for the win. And then I have facial cream. have neck cream. Now I do get out of bed to brush my teeth, drink my water and stuff, but every once in a while, I’ll be honest. I would say, you know, maybe once a week, maybe once every other week.

Tonya Kubo (17:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:42)
I’m like, I can’t even, and I know that grosses some people out. So one of the things I’ve done is I keep dental wipes in there. So, you know, they’re loaded with toothpaste and I can just, and I’ve got little tiny toothbrush and I keep my dental floss in there and it just makes my life easier. I also will take some vitamins at night. So like I keep everything in that bag. I will, I don’t know what my bag is going to look like with this new setup.

Tonya Kubo (17:49)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:10)
but I will have some kind of little bag or tote that I can pull out and have everything that I need at night. And one thing I’ve just added to it is just a little Tupperware container that has a moose treat in it. And because she comes to bed with me and I just wanna have a little routine for her at night. So it corrals all my bedtime routine into, know, steps into one place. And I am 93 % more likely to do it because I have it all together.

Tonya Kubo (18:10)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, I love that. And you know what? A little bit earlier you were just saying you get sick of looking at chords. Any tips in that front?

Kathi Lipp (18:46)
Yeah.

So I would say one of things that we’ve done is and I feel like this is absolute genius. I got a multi-pronged outlet and I put Velcro on the back of the outlet and then the other Velcro on the back of my nightstand. And so I can I can take that off. I can plug everything in and then I can slap it on the back.

Tonya Kubo (18:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:16)
and you don’t see all those chords going crazy. just, I feel like that was kind of a genius solution. makes me super, super happy.

Tonya Kubo (19:20)
Well…

Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I’m visualizing, which is why I’m talking slowly. So what about emotions? Cause you know, Kathi over in Clairefree Academy and our Facebook group, you want to believe that there’s not like it, it’s just stuff or you want to believe that something in the house doesn’t have emotion, but there’s emotional connections to everything for someone, right? So how do you address that side when it comes to the nightstand?

Kathi Lipp (19:30)
Yes.

Yeah, everything. Yes.

Yeah, I think, you know, it’s a little bit, we talked about the underwear drawer the other day and how we keep sometimes sentimental things there. If you’re going to display something on your nightstand, I think it’s an excellent place to put it. But I think what we, know, Tonya, our grandmothers and great grandmothers had trousseaux. They had, you know, a keepsake chest where they could keep all those things. And we’ve gotten away from that. And I think that each of us,

Tonya Kubo (19:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah!

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:24)
needs a box, a place to put those things that maybe are not going to be displayed, but are still precious to us. Because if they’re in our nightstand, I don’t know about you, but I just told you all the lotions and potions I keep in my nightstand. If I’ve got a love letter from Roger, do I really want that next to my bath and body works, you know, hibiscus? No, I don’t. Let me keep that in a special place. Let

Tonya Kubo (20:29)
Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

huh.

Kathi Lipp (20:51)
So let, if you wanna keep a framed photo or something like that, that’s lovely, go for it. But if you just don’t know where else to keep it, get a box that is just for things that are important to you because we all have memories that are important to us that maybe we don’t have to keep it, but you know what? We get to keep some silly stuff. We get to keep some emotional stuff. I think that that is okay. I just want you to also think about

Tonya Kubo (21:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:21)
We talked about this in our coat closet using that as a launch pad what if you thought of your nightstand as your you nighttime shutdown area and your morning launch area So i’m gonna keep my glasses here. I’m gonna keep my phone here. I’m gonna keep my e-reader here These are the things you know, i’m charging my watch i’m keeping everything here I have a little notepad here if I want to keep notes. This is where my book goes

Tonya Kubo (21:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you

Kathi Lipp (21:50)
So you have all of that that you need when you wake up in the morning and you reset it at night and it’s good to go. You you have your bottle of water. Like I put a bottle of water next to my nightstand every night and I may take a sip, a couple of sips at night, but the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I chug that whole bottle of water because I forget to drink water during the day.

Tonya Kubo (22:12)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (22:15)
But if it’s right there next to my nightstand, I’m gonna chug it as soon as I get up when I’m at my thirstiest. So think of it as your lunch.

Tonya Kubo (22:24)
I love that. I love that. Okay. So nightstand as a launch pad, which I think is a powerful reframe. And Kathi just want say thank you because you are the person who is designing these episodes for practical action for our listeners. just get to show up and ask questions and be curious. It’s like my favorite thing. And listeners, I’m just grateful to you.

Kathi Lipp (22:41)
You

Tonya Kubo (22:46)
for joining us, lending us your ears and taking advantage of all of these practical tips. So we’ve covered the why, the how and the emotional side of decluttering your nightstand. Your challenge this week is going to empty the nightstand. Try Kathi’s advice of setting up the night basket, maybe invest in a pillow organizer and see how it transforms your evenings. Make sure to check out the show notes though, cause we’ve got resources there for you to all different places and a handout that goes along with this episode.

Kathi Lipp (23:13)
Mmm, you got

go ahead Tonya. I was just gonna say one other thing is that make sure that you’re regularly cleaning it out It’s easy to let silly things like a lotion sample or you know, something along those lines just Don’t don’t get in your own way when it comes to the nightstand. You don’t need to keep all that stuff I’m sorry. I stepped on you, but it just occurred to me. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (23:18)
Mm-hmm.

no, you’re all good? Well,

because maintenance is so important, right? I think we’ve done a great job of talking about how to get it to a status. And what you did was remind us that it’s worth the time to keep it there. So thank you, friends. You’ve been listening to ClutterFree Academy. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Kathi Lipp (23:42)
It really is. Yeah.

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

Apr 22, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo delve into the importance of a tidy nightstand for a better night's sleep and a more organized life. They discuss Kathi's recent purchase of new nightstands with built-in outlets, her nighttime routine...

#665 – Declutter Your Spice Cabinet: From Chaos to Cooking Bliss

Apr 15, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo tackle one of the most deceptively frustrating spots in your kitchen: the spice cabinet. If you’ve ever bought a second (or sixth) bottle of basil because you couldn’t find the first one, or had cumin...

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

Apr 8, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this laugh-out-loud and surprisingly transformational episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep—literally—into the drawer that gets no love but causes a whole lot of frustration: your sock and underwear drawer. From chicken footprints and...

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Apr 8, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

Listen Now

In this laugh-out-loud and surprisingly transformational episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep—literally—into the drawer that gets no love but causes a whole lot of frustration: your sock and underwear drawer. From chicken footprints and Sharpies to mismatched socks and holy underwear, they uncover the oddities that sneak into this tiny space—and provide the simple steps you need to bring peace and order to your most intimate drawer.

In This Episode You’ll Learn:

Why worn-out socks and too-tight undies deserve a swift exit

The magic number of pairs you really need (based on your lifestyle!)

Kathi’s favorite affordable organizing tools (spoiler: cereal boxes included)

What to do with all the random stuff hiding in your drawer

Why your underwear drawer should be the least stressful part of your day

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Download the Free Guide:
Declutter Your Sock & Underwear Drawer Cheat Sheet – A step-by-step plan to sort, toss, and organize.

FYI: Some product links are affiliate links. If you buy, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for your support!

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my Clutter co-creator. Yeah, we create clutter together, but we also clean it up together. It’s Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, this is Clutter After Dark.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)

Hey, Kathi!

Kathi Lipp (00:33)

This is our most intimate episode ever. Guys, we’re talking underwear here. Can I just say, before we talk about getting into discussing, we’re talking about decluttering your underwear and sock drawer. Now, first of all, Tonya, do your underwear and sock co-mingle? Like, how are you set up?

Tonya Kubo (00:38)

Can we have

Yeah, so my underwear, socks, co-mingle.

Kathi Lipp (01:04)

Okay, okay. And when I’m saying underwear, I’m meaning all the categories, okay? So like, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (01:09)

Yeah, yeah. So like for me, it’s like camis and

like long, like long johns and stuff for when I travel to cold areas. My slips, all of that. That’s all one drawer with the socks.

Kathi Lipp (01:17)

Okay.

Okay,

there are gonna be people who are like, what are slips? I mean there really will be. That’s okay. Hey, so, but you didn’t slip, okay, nevermind. We’re gonna stop with all the puns. Yeah, my underwear, sock drawer, it’s bras, sports bras, tights, all of that kind of stuff. And they’re all very individual. But I do wanna say this. If you have never tried…

Tonya Kubo (01:25)

I know. I know. But I have a slurp.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:49)

the sports bras and underwear from Costco, may I highly suggest like I I I’ve I have converted I have converted fully and I’ll put the links down there to they’re not affiliate links. A lot of the things we do in here are affiliate links, which means hey, the clutter free people make a little bit of money off of this. So but these are not Costco doesn’t do that kind of thing. But I just love them so much. And you know what?

Tonya Kubo (01:53)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:17)

I love that I can pick up some new underwear next to my rotisserie chicken. Just makes me super happy. Okay, so if you are tired of mismatched socks, holy underwear, or random junk in your drawers, today we have got a very quick plan to fix it. We are gonna talk about matching socks, we’re gonna talk about organizers, we’re gonna throw out.

what’s worn and unloved, we’re gonna get you into shape. Because I don’t know about you, Tonya, like my first thing I do in the morning is drink coffee, and the second thing I do in the morning is get ready. So gathering up what I’m going to wear is one of my first jobs, and I don’t wanna be mad first thing in the morning. So this feels like a good launching point for us.

Tonya Kubo (02:45)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, I agree. And so, and this is timely for me because I just went through my socks and underwear drawer. We just did a deep laundry decluttering of everybody’s clothing and such. So, but I have a feeling that your situation’s a lot different than my situation because you have fewer people and you don’t have children in the house. So tell me what was your drawer situation before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (03:14)

Did you? Okay.

nice.

Yeah. Yes. Right.

Okay, so I have one big giant drawer and I was trying to kind of put things into piles. So like there was a sock pile and there was an underwear pile and a miscellaneous pile. And then also let’s talk about the nonsense that was in my drawer because that’s a running theme in this podcast. So I probably would win.

Tonya Kubo (03:38)

Mm-hmm.

You

Kathi Lipp (04:01)

the award for the strangest thing kept in my underwear drawer, which was a footprint of one of my chickens who has passed. I…

Tonya Kubo (04:16)

see why you would keep it in the underwear drawer though.

Kathi Lipp (04:18)

I didn’t know what else to do with it. And so like it was one of those things where I, yeah, I just didn’t know what, I think a lot of things that we don’t know what to do with end up in that kind of drawer. Okay, do tell me.

Tonya Kubo (04:33)

I’ll make you feel a little bit better, Kathi. So in mine,

baby teeth, because where are the kids guaranteed not to look, right? They’re not going to dig through mom’s underwear. The second thing is during the pandemic, right? I couldn’t go to a salon and get pedicure. So I bought like all the salon stuff and all the extra like foot files and that thing that looks like a bar of soap, but is actually like porous that they scrub your foot with. I have one of those in my underwear drawer. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (04:38)

Yes, yes, I… Right, exaca. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes, right?

Okay,

yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (05:03)

Yeah.

So and then I have like just random stuff. have markers, Sharpie markers that I didn’t want Abby to get into to draw on the walls. Put them in my underwear drawer, of course. So there you go.

Kathi Lipp (05:10)

Yes.

Look,

and why do receipts end up there? That’s a good question. Receipts, phone chargers, things like that, right?

Tonya Kubo (05:20)

Yeah. Right.

Totally. Totally true. Okay. So we got a picture of your drawer and all the randomness. What was that like during your day to day life? I imagine you weren’t having to take out the chicken foot imprint every single time to get ready, but still there was probably like, I don’t know, some wasted effort.

Kathi Lipp (05:36)

No,

Okay, well, I’m admitting all my foolishness in one place, okay? So why did I have socks in there that the elastic was blown out on? I think I was just so happy that I matched the sock that I didn’t care if I actually liked the sock.

Tonya Kubo (05:58)

Right?

My college roommate used to say, if it’s washed, it has to be worn before you can get rid of it. Otherwise you wasted the effort of washing. Yeah. So any things she would like come out with like, holey underwear. And she’s like, no, I have to wear these, but as soon as I wear them, I will throw them away. And I’m like, I would throw them away now actually.

Kathi Lipp (06:10)

I totally get that.

Okay. Yes.

my goodness. Yes. Because what if you end up at the hospital with holey underwear? I’m, you know, like this is deeply embedded in me, but here’s the thing, something that I haven’t really talked with you a bunch about, you know, I have, you know this, I have a bad back and I have done a lot of strength training and everything like that. And you know, they show all these commercials for people, for shoes to put on.

you know, when it’s hard for you to bend. And for me, it’s just one side of my body. What they don’t talk about is the socks. The socks, shoes are not a problem for me. It’s the socks. And so here’s the problem. If one of my, I tend to watch, wear those no-show socks because I’m a Gen Xer. That’s what we prefer. And if one of those socks slips down while I’m in the middle of Costco,

Tonya Kubo (06:53)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:20)

It’s not going back up. Yeah, and so like those need to be gone friend. Those need to be gone. Yeah, it’s my secret chain. Okay, so it was frustrating. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (07:20)

yeah, yeah.

Okay, it was frustrating.

But you’re on the other side, Kathi You are teaching us from the other side. So, and what I love about the series that we’ve been talking about, where we’re tackling these small spaces, is your solutions are just simple and yet with high impact. So tell me where you got started with your underwear and socks drawer.

Kathi Lipp (07:37)

I am.

Yes.

Okay, removing all the single socks. Like, okay, why are single socks there? I think what I thought was, well, when I find the other single sock, I will go back there. What I finally did is I just have a bag with single socks, and after a little while, like, I’ll gather all of them up, and I’ll say, these have been in here for three months. Now, if I don’t find them in the next go around, they need to be thrown away. But also, throwing away socks where

Tonya Kubo (08:16)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:26)

The elastic is blown out on them. They’re not the ones I like. They feel funny on my feet. Now, let me also say, when I was a single mom, it didn’t matter if they felt funny on my feet. I was keeping them because I was broke, right? But can we all agree if your underwear is falling down, it’s time to throw it away. If it’s cutting off your circulation or something like that.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:56)

I need you to throw those things away because that’s not how we should be living. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (09:00)

Exactly. Well, I would say if

anything that is supposed to be contained is falling out, you deserve to throw them away.

Kathi Lipp (09:07)

Exactly and let me also say with those single socks. I finally just realized I need to keep those in The laundry room so when I’m done folding laundry if there’s a sock left over I can put that where the other socks go instead of having to do a sock scavenger hunt before I try matching things up

Tonya Kubo (09:16)

Mmm.

Right?

Okay, so you had one spot for your random socks. You talked about getting rid of your worn out unwanted items, right? So the socks that slipped down, the undies that just have lost their containment factor. So once you get rid of all the bad stuff, then what?

Kathi Lipp (09:34)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

They’re not doing it anymore. Yes, exactly.

I’ll also say on the underwear anything you’d be embarrassed to show up at the hospital with you know let’s just go ahead and say you know Stains you know things like that whatever you need to do. Just be done with it. Okay, so now what I’ve done is I’ve used a couple of organizational solutions, so I Don’t know it’s called a honeycomb organizer and Okay, so it is

Tonya Kubo (10:02)

Mm-hmm.

I have no idea what that is. Talk to me, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (10:21)

You put it down in your and I’ll link all of this in our show notes so you can see what I’m talking about. But it’s got like a bunch of little squares. They’re more like trying like diamonds that when you undo this and you can put a pair of socks in there or you can put a pair of underwear in there. So it’s not just a giant pile, but you can see everything you have. And for me,

Tonya Kubo (10:35)

Got it.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:50)

And I think for a lot of people who struggle with clutter, when things are hidden, they’re no longer used. And so this says, no, this is what you have and you can go, I just love going to my drawer and plucking out that orange pair of no-show socks. Nobody’s gonna see them, but I know that they’re there and it makes me so happy. And I can see everything I have. And then I have some small fabric boxes for things like bras or sports bras.

Tonya Kubo (10:55)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (11:18)

tights, underwear, things like that. It just is a way of being able to see everything. Now, I’ve ordered those off of Amazon, but if you are, you know, if money is a struggle right now, which it is for a lot of people, could you use a shoe box? Could you use a tiny shoe box for little kids? At one point in my life, I use cereal boxes for organization. just…

Tonya Kubo (11:47)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:48)

I

had to because I had no money. So those are things you could use. So try using multiple smaller boxes with out lids and that can really help you keep organized in some of, it’s just a drawer divider that will get you to the next step.

Tonya Kubo (12:05)

Ooh, okay, well I am excited because we are going to go on a break, but when we come back, you’re actually going to answer probably one of the most often questions, often asked questions that we get in Clutterfree Academy, which is how many pairs do you actually need? Seriously, Kathi, that question comes up all the time. Plus you are going to tell us what to do with those items that don’t belong. We’ll be right back.

Kathi Lipp (12:08)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)

All right, we are back Kathi and you are going to tell us the secrets of the universe as it relates to underwear and socks drawers. How do we figure out how many pairs of socks and underwear we really need?

Kathi Lipp (12:37)

Yeah

I think the first thing you have to figure out is how often do you do laundry? Because if you’re doing laundry just once a week, figure out how many pairs of underwear, how many pairs of socks you wear in a week. And I would say add two or three, right? Because you want to be able, but if you’re doing laundry multiple times a week, you probably don’t need as many. Maybe you just need divide by two, add three.

Tonya Kubo (12:52)

Hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:17)

So I think really using your scientific method here and saying, what do I actually use? And if you’re like, I don’t know, that doesn’t feel like enough, that feels weird, that feels scary, then what I’ll suggest you do is put in the amount that feels comfortable in that space. So maybe eight pairs of underwear feels good in that space. Do you ever run out?

Tonya Kubo (13:17)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:44)

That’s a great question. Do I ever run out of that space? I tried to dial back to eight. It didn’t really work for me because sometimes I’m wearing more than a pair in a day. know, sometimes when I’m changing for bed, like whatever, everybody has their own routine. So you have to figure out what actually works for you. And I think that that’s okay to do. I also have different kinds of socks. I have the no-show socks and then I have the socks I wear in the snow.

Tonya Kubo (13:45)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (14:12)

So eight pairs of socks is not going to be enough. When it’s cold outside, I need more heftier socks. So you just have to apply a little bit of the scientific method. One thing that really helped me figure this out though, Tonya, was when I, in addition to that honeycomb organizer I talked about and the different little boxes, I put drawer dividers in my drawers.

Tonya Kubo (14:20)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:41)

These are spring loaded so that they fit the short ways in your drawer. So I have now a section for underwear, a section for sports bras, a section for regular bras. It’s like putting drawer dividers in there so that you can section out your space. And that really said, this is how much space I actually have.

Tonya Kubo (14:41)

you

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)

for my bras. This is actually how much space I have for my slips or tights or whatever it is. And that really helped me out.

Tonya Kubo (15:08)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

I love that. I love that. And I think that, you you brought up some good points about not just laundry schedule, but also habit. For instance, like when I used to, I used to work out six days a week, not the life I currently live, but I would like there was the workout underwear that served a certain purpose. There was the day to day underwear that served a certain purpose. So that was a time in my life when I needed a lot more than I need now. But I love that idea of combining

Kathi Lipp (15:26)

Yeah. Okay.

Yes, right, yes.

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (15:43)

the physical space that you have to fit the things with the laundry schedule. I think that’s really powerful.

Kathi Lipp (15:46)

Yes.

And Tonya, we are not minimalists, but we are minimal-ish. We are always determining what is the least amount of an item that I could live with that still serves its purpose. Minimalists might say, no, I’m going to arrange my life around only having

Tonya Kubo (15:53)

No.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:16)

you know, five pairs of socks. No, we’re going to arrange our socks out of our minimal need that we actually have.

Tonya Kubo (16:17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, like when we were just going through our stuff, you know, I settled on 13 pairs of underwear. Why? Because I just, because actually it was like, these are my favorite, like these are my favorites, right? And then I made an Amazon mistake, which I’m just sharing with our listeners in case they make the mistake. So sometimes on Amazon, you think you’re ordering one thing and it come to find out you are ordering a package of multiple things. And so I had wanted to get some of those long boxer shorts.

Kathi Lipp (16:31)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes! Yes!

Yes. Right.

Tonya Kubo (16:55)

to wear underneath dresses. And I wanted a black pair and a white pair and I accidentally ordered packages of eight pairs each.

Kathi Lipp (17:04)

Wow, fancy you.

Tonya Kubo (17:07)

fancy me with my 16 pairs of long boxer shorts that roll all the way up to your hip if you try to wear them underneath jeans. So I just decided that, you know, the 10 or so pairs that did not get worn at all did not need to be with me at all. And Brian was very happy. I think I have my own section of the donation center at this point, but. Right.

Kathi Lipp (17:10)

Right.

that’s so funny.

Right?

I love that. I love that

so much. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (17:35)

So I just want

to share, since we are sharing some Amazon links in the show notes, I just want to let you all know that you should pay attention to both the quantity and also the unit items inside the quantity that you’re purchasing.

Kathi Lipp (17:43)

It’s so true. It’s so true,

absolutely.

Tonya Kubo (17:49)

Okay, so Kathi, talk to me about brands. Because you mentioned like there’s some no-show socks that you particularly like. You like the Costco underwear. But at some point, you were using something else. How do you fit like the whole brands I love versus maybe I spent good money on this? You know the thing.

Kathi Lipp (17:56)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Okay. So my whole life has been, I spent good money on this. I need to wear it as a punishment. One of my favorite discoveries this year is the Wirecutter show. I’ve talked to you about this before. It is the New York Times Wirecutter where they do their product recommendations and they do extensive testing. One of my favorite things that we just bought, Tonya, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (18:11)

Right.

Mmm, yes, yes.

Kathi Lipp (18:36)

My life has changed, we just got a new mattress. And which is a very expensive purchase, right? Now it’s not their most expensive purchase, which by the way, they don’t recommend because they’re not crazy, but it’s a $75,000 mattress that Martha Stewart, but their product tester did sleep on it for six months to say, is this really worth it? Just to make sure.

Tonya Kubo (18:40)

Whoa.

Yeah.

just to make sure it wasn’t worth $75,000,

I’m sure.

Kathi Lipp (19:03)

Right,

she sacrificed, she goes, if I could, I would buy it, but that’s not how I’m choosing to spend my money. So I really listened and that’s how I found out about the Costco underwear, you know, and they like to recommend, hey, if you’re a normal person, this is a decent price to spend to get this decent thing. Well, you know, I’ve owned two pairs of Bamba socks in my life and I love a Bamba sock.

Tonya Kubo (19:09)

Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:31)

But you know what, I kept on thinking I could get the same effect with these Costco brands. Now in the Costco underwear, yes, I’m getting great results. The socks, maybe it’s because I have size 11 feet, I don’t know. They’re just not the same. Can I just tell you I doubled down and I got an eight pack of Bamba socks. And I need to wear those until Jesus comes back.

Tonya Kubo (19:46)

Mm-hmm.

Go you!

Kathi Lipp (20:00)

But you know what, here’s the thing. I have bought so many pairs of socks cheaping out and they’re the ones that, you know, when I talk about rolling down my feet, Bombas has never done that to me. They’ve always treated me right. So I think if there’s a brand you love and you’re going to invest in it, then follow the directions on how to wash and dry them.

Tonya Kubo (20:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:27)

You know, figure out what’s gonna keep them the brand you love and stick with those brands you love. And if you’ve never tried a bomba sock before, I’ll give you a link, because man, they are just the best. I love them so much, yeah. And you can get a discount code too. So we’ll share those.

Tonya Kubo (20:46)

Okay, well, so we talked a little bit earlier about the weird stuff in the drawers. What’d you do with your weird stuff and how do we prevent just wedging any old thing in our underwear and socks drawer?

Kathi Lipp (20:50)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

So like what I just talked about with the bombas, you want to go to your drawer and everything in there is something that you use and you love and would buy again. The chicken footprint, maybe not. Maybe not. So do you have a place that things that are meaningful to you, but they don’t really have a place in your life?

Tonya Kubo (21:07)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:23)

So one of the things I have committed to myself to do is I’m gonna display that footprint. I’m gonna find a place in the house for it. And it doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be a big place on my wall. It could just be something that I love. Other things that I found in there. Sometimes I put things in there because I can’t decide. And if I can’t decide and I haven’t used it in this long, like I got these.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)

Like I don’t even know how to describe them. They’re like they smell good. They’re supposed to be atomizers, but I don’t really know how I don’t know. They’re weird. I have never used them. I’m just going to throw them away and it’s okay. So only keep things in there that are meant for that drawer. Do you have a box you could put things in? Like these are meaningful to me, but I don’t have a place for them right now. It’s okay to have some precious memory places in your life.

Tonya Kubo (22:03)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and you know, as we wrap up sort of this discussion on the underwear and sock drawer, you know, we’ve talked about in some cases, you’ve got like seasonality that you need to think about. I think for most of us, socks and underwear aren’t seasonal. I know for me, I do have four pairs of like really thick socks that I’ll wear with boots versus my thinner summer socks. But I think you can just honestly tuck them into the back corner of the drawer or just get a small bin if you need to. Would you do anything different?

Kathi Lipp (22:30)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Nope, you know, the only thing I do differently is I do have fall boxes that we put upstairs and sometimes I’ll put some of those things in there because I know I’m not going to need them before fall. But you know, we’ve got a weird situation here.

Tonya Kubo (23:03)

Yeah. So, okay. So this wraps up our steps that we have gone through socks and underwear drawer. I don’t think we’ve ever spent quite so much time discussing such tiny aspects of clothing, but hey, this is an important thing. I’m curious though, Kathi, socks and underwear, it feels like it can get out of hand easily. How do you keep it tidy once you’re happy with how it is?

Kathi Lipp (23:14)

Yes? Yeah.

Just keep going back to that drawer and saying, does this make me happy? And if you have kids that you’re working with them on that drawer, like are you actually wearing these things that are in the back corner? Look at the bottom of the drawer. Are the things that are never getting daylight? Not that your socks and underwear should get too much daylight. But if they’re not going through the laundry on a regular basis, it may be time to just say, you know what, we don’t need these anymore.

And that’s okay, that’s okay. That’s why I really suggest getting brands you love so that you’re not re-buying mistake after mistake, because I’ve done that. I’ve wasted a lot of money doing that instead of just buying what I love, because I want to go to that drawer and feel like everything in here is something that I’m happy to wear.

Tonya Kubo (24:16)

I love that. Okay. Absolute mic drop right there. Everything is something that you’re happy to wear. Now listeners, you want to check our show notes because we have a simple downloadable guide for transforming that old sock and underwear drawer into a tidy functional space, following the tips that Kathi shared today. And we’ve got links to all the cool stuff that she mentioned, the Bamba socks, the Costco undies. I don’t know what else, but I’m sure, the honeycomb organizer. I almost forgot about that, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (24:43)

Yes, yes,

very important.

Tonya Kubo (24:46)

And

we cannot wait to hear from you next time. Now, Kathi, thank you so much for breaking this down, spending the amount of time that you have in helping us really make sense of this small but important to function space. Any other things you want to add before we close off?

Kathi Lipp (25:02)

Yes.

And we have all been in that broke place where we’re just happy to have any underwear. And I also want you to curate your life. I want your underwear drawer to be the least stressful part of your day. That’s my goal with this podcast.

Tonya Kubo (25:26)

I love that. I love that. Okay. Well, you have been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I am Tonya Kubo with Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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In this Clutter-Free Academy episode, Kathi Lipp teams up with her favorite clutter co-conspirator, Tonya Kubo, to address a common household nemesis: the overflowing coat closet. Perfect for those with or without a traditional coat closet, Kathi and Tonya share innovative tips and strategies to transform any space into a functional launch pad for daily success.

Listeners will discover the surprising power of matching hangers and learn how to repurpose their coat closet space with hanging bins, command hooks, and even a USB rechargeable light for those darker nooks and crannies. In addition, Kathi and Tonya delve into the emotional connections tied to clothing and how to overcome them in order to achieve a streamlined, organized coat closet.

Whether you’re tackling seasonal rotations or maintaining a tidy launch pad, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you maintain a clutter-free lifestyle all year round. Plus, be sure to check out the downloadable resource and join the conversation in our Clutter Free Academy and Clutter Free for Life communities!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps every day to live with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my favorite Clutter co-conspirator. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. okay. It’s time for us to come out of the closet on this one. Do you have a coat closet? Okay, see, easy. Your solution is here.

Tonya Kubo (00:23)

Hey, Kathi.

No.

My whole house

has two closets. That’s it.

Kathi Lipp (00:40)

I Tonya I don’t even know I can’t oh my goodness you know what you

Tonya Kubo (00:45)

It’s okay. It’s okay.

I wish I had a coat closet. Not gonna lie.

Kathi Lipp (00:51)

You’ve made your house work without a coat closet. Okay, so let’s talk about this in some generalities. We have a coat closet. I don’t know if you remember what that coat closet looks like, but it did not come with the house. It’s a built-in. So it’s very different kind of situation that doesn’t work for everybody, but it’s really helped us.

Tonya Kubo (00:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Yes!

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:20)

Can I just say our coat closet can become a catchall? And yeah, it’s not great. And so I want to talk coat closets today. I think a lot of listeners will identify this, that I have spent many years avoiding opening my coat closet, afraid that random stuff is going to fall out. But today we are going to share a game plan to fix that.

Tonya Kubo (01:49)

Oooooh! I like a good game plan even if it doesn’t apply to my specific situation.

Kathi Lipp (01:50)

Yes.

It’s a big promise, I’m not gonna lie. You know what, and if you don’t have a coat closet like Tonya, think of this maybe as what is your launch pad? What is the launch pad for getting out of the house? Because we all have to have that. So this is not going to directly impact you, but this may give you some ideas.

Tonya Kubo (02:05)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so you mentioned that your coat closet got a little scary. So why don’t you start us off with like, were the biggest challenges that you were facing before you got on top of it?

Kathi Lipp (02:29)

Okay, so can we, is there a word that’s multi-seasonality? okay, I just made, yeah, I get to make up words. I love that so much. So what the problem was is there were too many things living in that closet at the same time. You know, we had not only, granted, where we live, we need to keep some different things in our coat closet.

Tonya Kubo (02:36)

You just made it up, Kathi. That’s okay. You are an author. You are allowed to make up words as much as you want.

Hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:59)

Like a lot of our listeners do live in snow country, so they may need to keep a snow scraper in that coat closet. Most of our listeners don’t need to keep bear spray in there. But you know.

Tonya Kubo (03:08)

I was just gonna

say, but in your coat closet you have to keep bear spray and pain reliever.

Kathi Lipp (03:13)

We do.

And pain reliever, have some different drawers that we’ll talk about in a different episode. But the major coat area, you know, we were keeping our spring coats in there and, you know, that little summer jacket and the big heavy winter coat. There was just, there was a lot going on and it was just a great place to stash stuff. And yeah, it got a little…

Tonya Kubo (03:19)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:41)

It was out of control, we couldn’t find things. Things were not there when they needed to be and their coats sometimes got jammed in because we ran out of hangers. Random items on the base of it. Just, I mean, no real system, no real system.

Tonya Kubo (04:00)

Yeah, well, it sounds like it had quite the impact on just the day to day life, right? Like just it takes more time to do things when you have to like devote time to digging through.

Kathi Lipp (04:05)

Yeah.

Why do we own seven hats if we can’t find one when we need to leave the house? Like these are, yeah. Or why do we need six dog leashes if there’s never anywhere they’re supposed to be? And it wasn’t that it made me late for stuff, you know, because anywhere I’m going, it’s gonna take an hour and a half. So I left plenty of times. But we would forget stuff all the time because, you know, what was hidden was forgotten.

Tonya Kubo (04:15)

Or the right one.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So can you walk us through sort of what was the first move there?

Kathi Lipp (04:47)

Okay, so I’m not normally a big fan of this, especially for large areas, but for this coat closet, I will recommend pulling at least categories out at all at once. So things like pulling out all the coats, or maybe pulling out all the scarves, or hats, or things like that.

Tonya Kubo (04:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:15)

And then really deciding what did we actually need? Do I actually wear this coat? If not, it got donated. Donating good things, things in good condition. We didn’t have a lot of stuff that was in bad condition, but if it was rarely worn, one question was, okay, maybe I only wear this once a year. I have a fancy coat, okay? I have a.

Tonya Kubo (05:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:43)

It’s not fancy, but it’s a nice coat. got it for a business trip in Chicago. I rarely wear it. Does that need to be in the front hall closet? I consider that prime real estate. So I just decided to keep that in my bedroom closet and I could pull it out when I needed it. So it’s really curating what we needed in each category. Why do I have seven beanies?

Tonya Kubo (05:50)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:13)

I don’t know, because they were, I don’t know. Yeah, maybe somebody gave me one. Let’s be honest, they were on sale at Costco. Let’s just be honest. So there were things like that, but I don’t need all of those. So the first thing really was removing those extra coats. You asked me what the first step was, it was removing extra coats and things that just didn’t need to be there.

Tonya Kubo (06:14)

I was gonna say, why did you have seven meetings? mean, no judgment, just curious.

Right.

Okay and then what came after that do you think?

Kathi Lipp (06:45)

So that’s when we, I don’t know about you, Tonya, but there was just so much nonsense, so much nonsense. Like why were tools in there? Explain to, why? I don’t know. I think, just for now, it’s so true, it’s so true. And then why was there mail in there? Like that’s not where the mail goes.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)

Well, cause you put it there just for now until you decide where you really want it, right?

no, no, I understand. I will explain why there was mail there. Because you came inside the house and you had the mail in your hand and you had your coat on. And so you put the mail down so that you can take off your coat. But while you’re taking off your coat, another idea entered your brain. And so you pivoted around and you went to go take action on that other idea, completely forgetting.

Kathi Lipp (07:13)

Okay, please tell me.

Yes, yes, yeah.

Yes.

Go.

Tonya Kubo (07:36)

that your mail is inside the coat closet. The same thing is also what happens to your remote control. Mine’s usually in the fridge.

Kathi Lipp (07:42)

my goodness. my goodness. Okay, I’ve never done that. That’s impressive. I have to say. Ours gets lost in the bed sheets all the time. And then in the middle of the night, we’re like, why? Why did friends just pop on? Because Moose was walking across the bed. Yes. Okay, we each house has its own problems, right? Yeah. So to really decide, like each space in your house has to have its own purpose. And so I need

Tonya Kubo (07:47)

all the time.

You

No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:10)

It’s okay for me to put the mail on the front table as long as I’m putting the mail the same place each time and the coat closet is probably not it.

Tonya Kubo (08:15)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, the coat closet’s not it because a coat closet has a door. You will never see the mail again. That’s just what happens. Okay, so, you know, I hesitate to ask this question because I think some people are gonna roll their eyes and go, gee whiz, Tonya, it’s a coat closet. You can’t have emotional connections to your coats. But I happen to know that our listeners and our community members who are over in Clutterfree Academy and Clutterfree for Life struggle with emotional connections.

Kathi Lipp (08:25)

Yes, exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (08:51)

to items that other people don’t understand. So I’m curious, was there any of that as you were going through your coat closet, anything where you felt emotionally connected to having it there or where you really felt strongly about needing it to be there just in case something were to happen?

Kathi Lipp (09:08)

Okay, so not this version of the coat closet, but I will talk about the version we had at our house in San Jose and That was the army green jacket that I had in Japan and You know what? Okay, so Some of the best memories I had in my life before I married Roger Happened in that army green jacket now. I will also say

Tonya Kubo (09:15)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:37)

I did not wear that same size army green jacket for a very long, pretty much my whole first marriage and much of my second marriage, but I couldn’t get rid of it. And so what finally made me get rid of it, this is so embarrassing. I had some dog treats in it apparently, and we had a little bit of an infestation at our house. And yeah.

Tonya Kubo (09:46)

Yeah.

Hmm.

yeah, that happens.

Kathi Lipp (10:05)

And so we had to get rid of the jacket. yeah, it hung in my house without being used for years and years and years. And what I wish I would have done was give it to somebody. Because there’s some kid, some emo kid would have loved that jacket. I could have given it to Lily at some point, right? Yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (10:16)

Yeah.

Yes, yes!

You totally could have given it to Lilly. You totally could have.

Because she was definitely in an army green phase before she was in her black on black phase, which is where we’re at right now.

Kathi Lipp (10:33)

Yes, and

we all have some of those things that it’s like, okay, I’ll get back into it. Or you know what, maybe somebody will come visit me at the house and they need an army green jacket. know, like, these are all things. And when you have chaos like that, you don’t use the stuff that you have. It’s really, we stash things in there because we’re thinking we’ll deal with it later. Like you said earlier,

Tonya Kubo (10:46)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (11:01)

But today, let’s all handle that. Let’s handle our business, Tonya. Let’s, yeah, yes.

Tonya Kubo (11:05)

Yeah, let’s handle the business for the here and now as

it comes. So, okay, we’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, you are gonna talk to us about matching hangers. I’m very curious about hearing more of this. Hanging bins and more. All right, so we’ll see you after the break.

Kathi Lipp (11:18)

Yes, okay. Yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (11:26)

All right, well, welcome back. So Kathi, I can’t remember if I heard this on a Facebook live you did or if it was something you did in our membership community, but I have heard you in the past say that matching hangers can transform the look of any space that has hangers instantly. I need you to tell me more about

Kathi Lipp (11:34)

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so you said in our last podcast episode that you think every space in our house could potentially be one that brings us joy when we go there. And can I tell you one of the cheat codes to joy is matching hangers. And here’s what I love about that. And it doesn’t have to be expensive hangers. I will tell you for my personal closet upstairs, I have those thin black.

Tonya Kubo (11:57)

Mm-hmm.

I believe that.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:16)

Velvet hangers the joy hangers Roger hates those with a fiery passion Okay, is it because they are Superman and they feel like they have to get dressed very quickly and the velvet slows them down Is it a textural issue? What is it for these guys? Okay, I Like them like that. Yes. Yes in our one of our guest rooms. We have matching

Tonya Kubo (12:17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian feels the same way. I love mine.

Brian says they’re too thin. That’s why I like them. I like them because they’re so thin.

Kathi Lipp (12:43)

red plastic hangers. They’re not fancy, but they get the job done. But in my coat closet, we have, and I’ve got a link to them. They’re just wood hangers. They’re not crazy expensive, but they look so nice. And here’s a couple of reasons why I like them. One, the hangers go back to the closet they’re supposed to go to. Can I say that again? The hangers go back to the closet they’re supposed to.

Tonya Kubo (12:44)

Mm-hmm.

you

Kathi Lipp (13:12)

So Roger doesn’t have wood hangers hanging out in his closet. I don’t have white plastic hangers from his closet hanging out in mine. And it curates your closet. If you have 12 hangers in your closet, maybe that’s eight for your coats and then four for guests. That’s plenty. That’s what we need. And there are only two people living in my house. Your house, but it also makes it look put together. It’s a very simple way.

Tonya Kubo (13:31)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (13:41)

for it to visually come together very, very quickly. I love them. And it prevents coat pileups, know, those hangers that, you know, they just make me want to keep the space looking good.

Tonya Kubo (13:54)

Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Well, and especially, like I can even see an application just household wide if everybody had their own like designated hanger, then you’re putting laundry away. It’s very easy to pick out whose stuff is whose. So I really like that idea. So, okay. So, but there’s some things I think that go in coat closets. I say I think because I currently don’t have one, but I used to have one.

Kathi Lipp (14:03)

Yeah. Right.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yes. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:18)

that don’t go on hangers, hats,

gloves, grocery bags. I mean, it depends on what you do, right? What do you do about that stuff?

Kathi Lipp (14:23)

Yeah.

Yes. Okay,

I’m gonna give you the best solution. I got these hanging baskets. They’re three tiers of hanging baskets. They hook on just like a hanger. So it’s got two hooks and it takes up a little bit of space, but we have one for gloves. We have one for scarves. We’ve got one for those grocery bags. I want you to think about it like this.

Tonya Kubo (14:37)

Okay?

Kathi Lipp (14:51)

What do I need to launch when I go out of the house? And if I open that coat closet, mine has two doors. That’s why if you’re watching the video here on YouTube, you will see me opening with two doors. But if you have those spaces, you can just open up and say, here’s everything I need to leave the house. And so having those hanging bins,

Tonya Kubo (14:57)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:17)

gives you things like, we have one for all of our moose supplies, know, so those, you know, poop bags and leashes and collars and things like that, reusable bags, bear spray, like there’s a space for everything. So nothing is on the bottom floor of that coat closet that you don’t want to be there.

Tonya Kubo (15:21)

Mm-hmm.

Great, okay, so you are always so good. This is the problem when we reverse roles is Kathi, you are always so good at counting us out and I have not been counting us out. So when it comes to decluttering the coat closet, so step one was you got rid of the coats you no longer wear. Step two was you don’t advocate this normally, but in the case of a small space like a coat closet, pulling everything out that doesn’t belong and then going through it and only putting the stuff back that makes sense. And then.

Kathi Lipp (15:50)

Yeah, that’s okay.

Yes.

Right. Right.

Tonya Kubo (16:09)

For step three, we talked about the matching hangers and just how that just feels good to look at. And then step four is hanging bins for the small items, the hats, the gloves, the grocery bags, bear spray in your case. All right, take me to step five.

Kathi Lipp (16:13)

Mm-hmm.

It feels great.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so we like to have in our coat closet our car keys wallets purses and Yeah, we’re putting a lot in that coat closet so I want to be able to see what I have and we we introduced the USB rechargeable light that you can put in by a magnet This is another great place for it if your coat closet doesn’t already have a light

Tonya Kubo (16:44)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:58)

Or maybe your coat closet is in a hall where there’s a light outside the hall, but there’s not one inside. May I highly suggest, and we’ll put it again in the show notes, this USB light that is just installed with a magnet. You don’t need to rewire anything. It will give you, you can see into every nook and cranny. But the other magical thing in here, the thing I cannot live without, command hooks. I love.

Tonya Kubo (17:24)

yes, we like those at our house

too.

Kathi Lipp (17:26)

Yes,

I love a good command hook. So I use a command hook. I personally, I do have a bunch of different purses for different activities. I like a good handbag, but my wallet is on a loop. And so I can just hang my wallet on a command hook. We can hang all of our keys on a command hook. You can also put, if you want to do,

Tonya Kubo (17:36)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:54)

like your grocery shopping bags. If you don’t wanna put them into one of those hanging bins, you could put those on a command hook. You can use those for a million different things and they just make your life so, so much better. Dog leash, other small items, you use accordingly.

Tonya Kubo (18:02)

Mmm.

Yeah, and so with the command hooks, you and we’ll link to those in the show notes as well. Those are nice because they attach with adhesive in most cases. And so you don’t have to worry about making holes anywhere or like, I don’t know, but if I have to put a screw or a nail in something suddenly that feels like home improvement and I’m not all about that life.

Kathi Lipp (18:23)

Yes.

Yes, right.

It’s a different level. What we’re talking about here, everything that we’ve shared about is A level. Or is it D, you know, is it F level? Let’s say it’s F level and A level is redoing your bathroom. No, we’re talking about stickers and hooks. That’s what we’re talking about here. Magnets, yes.

Tonya Kubo (18:37)

Yeah.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and so Kathi, you are the person who taught me about seasonal stuff, right? Because I grew up in a studio apartment with my mom, I’m used to everything being in one space all at the same time. But the last episode, we were talking a little bit about seasonal stuff, and we’re talking about seasonal stuff now with the coat closet especially. How do you rotate things or do you?

Kathi Lipp (19:05)

Right.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

And, Tonya, let’s also say you grew up in central California, where the seasons are not quite as different as they are in Minnesota. Right, exactly. And broiling hot, yes. So, yes, but living up here, I have definitely learned about seasonality. And so we just have a little space in our garage for out of season. So the same bin is either

Tonya Kubo (19:28)

Cold, not cold. That’s all we got.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:49)

summer or winter right now because we’re recording this in February, it’s going out in March. We have all of our bug spray, our sunscreen, all of that kind of stuff out in our garage in a bin and inside we have our scarves, our gloves, our ice scraper, that kind of thing. So think of your coat closet or your launch pad, whatever it is.

Tonya Kubo (20:11)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:16)

as one of the most valuable pieces of real estate in your house. And when you redo this, keep everything out of there that you are not potentially going to use in the next week or so. So like right now, I don’t have my summer jacket hanging in there. Yeah, and so just what I could open up and say, you know what? I have a purpose for almost everything in here in the next couple of weeks.

Tonya Kubo (20:30)

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, one more question, Kathi. What about the floor? Because I know some people have a strict, like, nothing goes on the floor rule in a closet. I know that you happen to be a space maximizer, so I have a feeling that you’ve got some solutions there.

Kathi Lipp (20:47)

Yes. Yeah.

Right.

Guess.

So here’s what I would say with that is that, you know, if I leave room for things like when my kids had backpacks for school, or if you have a folding grocery cart, if you live in a really urban area, you probably have a folding grocery cart that needs to go somewhere. Or do you have a bag of library books that need to be returned? You know, what?

Tonya Kubo (21:12)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:30)

whatever I grab on my way out, I also, if I was going to work every day, I might have my computer backpack there. Right now, those things are probably existing in your living space because on the floor of your coat closet is nonsense because that’s what was on the floor of my coat closet. So, you know,

Tonya Kubo (21:39)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)

So what I personally have on the floor of my coat closet, and my coat closet isn’t like a full length thing, it’s a half length thing, but I have cooler bags because when we go to town, I’m going to use a Costco cooler, at least in the winter, to put in my fresh meat and stuff. In the summer, we’re bringing our Yeti. Like that’s a different thing. But…

Tonya Kubo (22:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (22:23)

What do you actually use and need to be there? It should not be long-term storage for things you don’t touch all year. It’s things that you actually use. And if your kids could put their backpacks there, if you could put your work backpack there, I think that’s a great use of space.

Tonya Kubo (22:30)

Yeah.

Okay, and so now we get to the part where we’ve got to talk about the nemesis of all of our cluttery peeps. We’ve got the coat closet all beautifully decluttered, organized. How do we keep it from getting junked up again?

Kathi Lipp (22:45)

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah, so when you bring new items in, remove something old. You know, the one in, one out. You know, when you think about coats, we probably don’t need 40, okay? Roger and I both need a nice coat. Think church or going out to dinner. An everyday winter coat, an everyday lighter coat, and a raincoat. If I get a new coat, I get rid of an old one.

Tonya Kubo (23:11)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:23)

Now, you may have more coat needs, that’s okay. But do you have 20 coat needs? And do they all need to be in that coat closet space? What if you picked the three or four coats that you use most of the time and use that? And then also, as you’re changing things over from winter to summer, just clear it out.

Tonya Kubo (23:24)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (23:52)

Do I need to get rid of more coats? Do I need to get rid of some of these scarves? The other thing is, do you need seven scarves? Do you need 12 beanies? Do you need all of those mittens and gloves? Think about what do you actually use and what do you actually need? That’s the maintenance you need to do. And can I tell you, once you get this set up, your maintenance is gonna be so minimal. It’s gonna take five minutes.

Tonya Kubo (24:18)

Well, I was gonna say like maximum would be about 20 minutes a week, right? Like five minutes a day. If you can just do a quick swipe through, especially during the times of year where your coat closet is in more heavy use.

Kathi Lipp (24:22)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Right, absolutely.

Tonya Kubo (24:33)

my goodness, Kathi, thank you so much. These have been great tips. I especially appreciate all the resources that we’re going to have available in the show notes, mainly because that’s how I access them after the episodes as well. Like I probably use our website more often than anybody else around here. Any final thoughts, encouragement, tips that you would give to our listeners?

Kathi Lipp (24:40)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

I love it.

How do you want to start your day? If your coat closet could be your launch pad to say, this is where my keys are. This is where, maybe you keep your lunch bag there after work or something like that. But how do I want to approach my day each day? Do I want to be able to find things in there easily? Do I want to be able to know where my coat is?

I think the reason that we don’t use our coat closets so much is because they’re filled with nonsense. At least that’s why I wasn’t using it. Instead of thinking, you know what, this is a tucked away space for things that I use every single day. Your space should be stuff that you use at least five out of seven days a week. So if you think about it that way, it’s really going to curate what belongs in that space and what doesn’t.

Tonya Kubo (25:28)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

beautiful tips. So we’re gonna curate what belongs in the space and what doesn’t. And we’re doing that by, just to summarize the steps, removing the unwanted coats, unwanted stuff that’s extra in that space. We’re gonna pull out the items that don’t belong, get matching hangers. You’ll thank us later, cause they’re beautiful. Hanging bins are ideal for those things that don’t hang. And then of course, command hooks, get that rechargeable light. I don’t know about you, but I’m running out to get one today.

Kathi Lipp (26:05)

Mm-hmm.

They’re so great.

Tonya Kubo (26:16)

and

rotate things seasonally. Not everything needs to live in the same space, same time all year long. Now, I believe we’re going to have a download available with all these tips in our show notes, right? You’re so excited. This was all Kathi’s idea, guys. I would never think of this, so just know that. Kathi thought of this because she knows you well. And we want to hear, so we want you to download that resource from our show notes, but then we want to hear from you over in the free Facebook group and you can find

Kathi Lipp (26:22)

Mm.

We are! Yes!

Tonya Kubo (26:44)

all the links, all the information in the show notes. Kathi, thank you for letting me interview you. This has been so much fun.

Kathi Lipp (26:51)

my goodness.

You know what? And I love doing this because it inspires me in these spaces and I need the inspiration just like everybody else.

Tonya Kubo (27:00)

Oh, I feel the same way. listeners, I just want to say thank you for hanging out with us for this 25 minutes or so. You have been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Tonya Kubo with Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

Apr 22, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo delve into the importance of a tidy nightstand for a better night's sleep and a more organized life. They discuss Kathi's recent purchase of new nightstands with built-in outlets, her nighttime routine...

#665 – Declutter Your Spice Cabinet: From Chaos to Cooking Bliss

Apr 15, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo tackle one of the most deceptively frustrating spots in your kitchen: the spice cabinet. If you’ve ever bought a second (or sixth) bottle of basil because you couldn’t find the first one, or had cumin...

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

Apr 8, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this laugh-out-loud and surprisingly transformational episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep—literally—into the drawer that gets no love but causes a whole lot of frustration: your sock and underwear drawer. From chicken footprints and...

#662 – How I Organized My Pots & Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 25, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas | 0 comments

#662 – How I Organized My Pots & Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into one of the most dreaded and clutter-prone areas of the home: the kitchen cupboards. Whether you’re struggling with chaos in your pots and pans cabinet or just need some fresh organization inspiration, this episode offers practical tips and clever solutions to transform your kitchen into a space that brings you joy.

From discussing the dreaded corner cabinets to lighting solutions that bring a smile every time you open the door, Kathi and Tonya walk you through realistic steps to declutter and organize. They share insights on dealing with duplicates, utilizing vertical storage, and even creatively using AI to find innovative products that simplify your life. Along the way, you’ll get a dose of laughter and encouragement to tackle your kitchen stress points one cupboard at a time.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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FYI: Some product links are affiliate links. If you buy, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for your support!

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:06)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutterfree Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And today we’re going to get as practical as you can get. We’re going to be as intentional and you know I like the word prescriptive but Tonya can we just call it what it is, it’s bossy right?

Tonya Kubo (00:31)
Hey, I love to be bossed around. And I think our listeners do too.

Kathi Lipp (00:33)
Right?

Yes. Well, you know, in our paid group, we have an opportunity, at least this year, where you and I got on calls with people for 15 minutes and really what they want. First of all, they want to just unburden on somebody that knows that they’re not going to be judged by. But the other thing is they want to be bossed around. yeah, and I love that for us. And so

Tonya Kubo (00:58)
yeah.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
Today we’re gonna get down into the nitty gritty. We’re talking about the dreaded kitchen cupboard. And let me just tell you the worst one of all is where the pots and pans live. Is that a sore spot for you or have you got that all figured out?

Tonya Kubo (01:19)
Well, I wouldn’t say I have it all figured out, but mine hang. So they don’t get like they do for some people, right? Where they’re like piling. So my issue is actually the lids because the lids don’t hang. So I have the lids like stacked on the shelf and then sometimes they fall on my head.

Kathi Lipp (01:23)
interesting.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I could

see where that would happen. Well, we’ve got approximately 20 minutes that we are and we’ve got a little commercial break, but otherwise all we’re going to be doing is talking about pots and pans because here’s the thing friends. It’s the little things right and we want you to take those little spaces that can be a little annoying can be a little frustrating and let’s let’s tackle them. Okay, we’re going to tackle them together Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (02:07)
Alrighty, sounds good. So, Kathi if you don’t mind, I’m gonna reverse our roles here a bit, because I am curious about, I guess what I wanna start off with is, because I’ve been to your house, but most of our listeners haven’t, I want you to describe what was the pots and pans cupboard like before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so, you know, as we’ve talked about many times before, you come to my house and you don’t see a ton of clutter. But I will always be a cluttery girl at heart. That’s my deep, that’s my, that’s my truth. That is my truth. And that pots and pan cupboard, you know, when we moved in, of course I organized it. I did everything I could, but it’s just, if, if nobody lived there, it would stay so much more organized. But sadly, you know, I’m a cook.

Tonya Kubo (02:38)
Mm-hmm.

That is your truth.

Kathi Lipp (03:01)
I like to cook and I’m very fortunate that Roger puts dishes away, but it was always a pain. It was because it’s low. It’s a corner cupboard. And so you kind of have to dig back in there. And if you really want some stuff that’s all the way in the back, holy cow. And so a lot of things got shoved and I am a collector at heart. So there were things like

Tonya Kubo (03:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
weird cake pans and different kinds of muffin tins and three of my favorite kind of saucepan, things like that. So it just felt like, okay, once I could get those pans out of there, I could get to cooking. But there was always that kind of burden in there.

Tonya Kubo (03:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and so your corner cabinet, because I’ve been to your house, I think one of the issues, and I think a lot of people have this issue too, is that the opening to the cabinet is actually much more narrow than the cabinet. It’s like the Harry Potter closet, right? It’s like you open it up and it’s like, hey, there’s a whole room in here. So I’m just curious, did you find that when you had people over, because you entertain a lot, did their way of putting…

Kathi Lipp (04:06)
Yes, yes. Right, absolutely. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:23)
things away kind of add to the challenge. It’s not that we’re upset that anybody would come over and put your dishes away because we know that that’s a gift. That’s a blessing. But I’m just curious if yes, you and Roger maybe had some difficulty, but maybe some guests possibly added to the difficulty.

Kathi Lipp (04:29)
Never. Yes. Yes.

Well,

I think some people don’t want to see things. They’re like, if it’s hidden, it’s not clutter. So they might put a pot or something into a deep stock pot. And I might not see that for four months. other problem is that it’s like a cave, right? And I didn’t want, I know that there are some fancy people out there who is like,

Tonya Kubo (04:43)
Mmm. Got it.

Keep right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:07)
I had somebody come rewire my cabinets. I don’t have rewire my cabinets kind of money. That’s just not something I’m choosing to spend money on at this time. So there were a lot of different, you know, it was overcrowded. You couldn’t reach certain pots. I would actually have to call Roger from upstairs to grab some of those things. You know, there were duplicate, it was just a mess.

Tonya Kubo (05:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I’m imagining part of it is also your arms aren’t long enough to get to the back, right? I mean, mine, I know mine aren’t long enough to get to the back of your cabinet.

Kathi Lipp (05:35)
Right, I…

I am the T-Rex of human beings. I have the shortest arms in the world. And you you mentioned lids. Lids are a real issue. And so, you know, we just had to deal with all that kind of stuff. I’m making it sound worse than it is. I’m compiling like three years of frustration into a, in three minutes. But I think there are other people who have felt this frustration.

Tonya Kubo (05:41)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Well, but I don’t really feel like you’re making a bigger deal out of it than it is because to your point, I think everybody has these frustrations regardless of what the physical space looks like. I think all of us have some cabinet and oftentimes it’s our pots and pads cabinet where our arms aren’t long enough to get to the back. All of us have an issue with nesting like smaller items inside of larger items but then the largest item being so deep that you can’t see what’s inside.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:33)
Like, so I do think I appreciate the fact that you spent three minutes on this because I think you’ve listed all the pain points that our listeners are most likely to experience with our pots and pans. So now it’s the big question, Kathi, because this is the question that plagues everybody in our community. It’s what was your first move?

Kathi Lipp (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

So I finally had to admit to myself those little cake tins that were shaped like flowers. The one that was shaped like Thomas the Tank Engine. Those specialty things, dude, I’m just not that special. I’m just not. And I might imagine someday in the future when I have grandkids that they would want that train pan.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:17)
But you know, we have to come to the realization what our grandkids want is rarely what our kids wanted. And by the way, I don’t have anybody who is planning on having children in my family. So what was I holding on to those things for? And then, you know, there was so much someday in there is that, you know, I’ve realized keeping something that you use once a decade.

Tonya Kubo (07:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
isn’t worth losing daily cupboard space.

Tonya Kubo (07:49)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
It’s just not. It’s, you know, it’s so many of it would be more worth it to me to go to Michael’s, buy the cake pan, use it and immediately donate it. That would be a better use of my time, space, money and energy than keeping a cake pan I use once every 10 years. So I had to go through that cabinet and say,

Tonya Kubo (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)
If I’m not using this, why? So one of the things I did immediately, like one of the cake pans, I have a popover pan and I probably haven’t used that in a decade. And I’m like, I’m not willing to get rid of this. So I had to be willing to use it. So I made popovers, they were terrible. I’m going to make them again. I’m going to do it until I get it right. But if you’re going to hang on to something you haven’t used before.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)
Hmm.

haha

Kathi Lipp (08:47)
Are you imagining a life that you want to someday have or can you just use it right now? Say, I’m gonna try it and I’m gonna use it. if you’re willing to use it right away, I say keep it. If you’re not willing to use it right away, it’s probably time to get rid of it.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Yeah, well, and what I like about that perspective is it falls completely in line with our principle about negotiating space. I mean, there’s only so much real estate in a home and there’s only so much real estate that you can afford to designate for your pots and pans, right? Because there’s a whole lot more that goes into a kitchen. So those specialty pans, like they sound like the easiest decision to make, the best starting.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Right. Yes, yes.

Exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
But after that, it feels to me like everything else would be equal priority. So where did you go from there?

Kathi Lipp (09:38)
Hmm

Duplicates okay, so Tonya I fancy myself a cook. I know I know I know

Tonya Kubo (09:42)
no. Don’t pick

on my four muffin tins, Kathi Lip. Do not pick on my four muffin tins.

Kathi Lipp (09:47)
Okay, okay, can I just say though if

if you like me Use your four muffin tins at the same time Then you get to keep those muffin tins like I often will do a big batch of muffins and I will use both tins at the same time to bake a bunch of things at the same time and I also have big muffin tins

Tonya Kubo (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:17)
I also have teeny tiny muffin tins. And by the way, I use all of those. So I have two regular muffin tins, one big and one teeny tiny, and I use all of them. So you know what? I kept all of them. I’m about as close to a, I don’t want to say a professional cook, because that doesn’t describe me. But I did write a cookbook and I had to use these things. But how many times did I use the same size

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:47)
I do have some fry pans that are slightly larger, some that are slightly smaller, and those were perfectly good. So I gave away some of my duplicate, you know, the pan that you’re like, okay, if the apocalypse happens and I need it, that pan is there. Well, the apocalypse doesn’t happen, but you know what, COVID did, and I never used that pan, so it was time to get rid of it. So, at,

Tonya Kubo (10:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Got it, okay.

Kathi Lipp (11:14)
Ask yourself if you really need three stockpots. If not, donate or sell or buy nothing group or something like that. And I’m pointing at me because I have two, here’s the thing, I wrote a book about soup. I kept too many stockpots. It’s time to, because I have slow cookers. I have other big pots. I don’t need, is it two or three stockpots? I don’t know, but you know what? Yeah, sometimes you have to do this in layers. There’s layers.

Tonya Kubo (11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And the muffin tins thing, that was a big argument I had with my best friend, Amber, if you’re listening, this is about you. Because I had four muffin tins and she was just like, you only need one. And I’m like, no, because I oftentimes will make two dozen muffins, two dozen cupcakes. And she was like, yes. So you bake them in one, you empty those out to cool and then you do the other. And I’m like, you obviously do not understand my workflow in the kitchen.

Kathi Lipp (11:50)
Hahaha!

Yes.

No,

Tonya Kubo (12:11)
I do not want to wait for the muffins to cool, to take them out, to then

Kathi Lipp (12:12)
no. Right, right.

Tonya Kubo (12:15)
refill them. That feels like dead time. So thank you for validating my four muffin tins. That’s really what this is about. This is validating me in a 20 year old argument. Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (12:18)
And Kim.

Yes. And

Tonya, also, what’s the storage harm in those muffin tins? Because they nest right into each other. So I’m giving you a cupcake pass.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)
right. That is true.

Yes, I get the cupcake pass. I’m so excited. Okay, so we’ve removed our specialty pans that we’re not using and we’re not willing to use. We have gotten rid of our duplicates. What’s next?

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

So I just think getting rid, when you get rid of those duplicates, I want you to think about who can I give these to? Sometimes our first thing is who can I sell these to? I don’t think, I think oftentimes if maybe we’re a little bit more on the side, this side of 40 years old than we are on that side of 40 years old. And to think through, you know,

Do I really need the money for this or could I help somebody like people helped me when I was first starting out? You know that extra muffin tin. So could you use that it organizes your space and then you act, you know, we can bless someone else by passing on items we don’t actually use because that may become their favorite muffin tin.

Tonya Kubo (13:42)
that totally makes sense. Okay, well, we’re gonna have to pay some bills, take a break. But when we come back, dear listener, do not leave us because now that we’ve talked about how we’ve minimized the pots and pans area, we’re gonna talk about organizing.

All right, so we are back and we are going to hear from Kathi. Kathi, you are going to talk to us about how you organized your pots and pans after you decluttered all the excess that you didn’t need.

Kathi Lipp (14:11)
Right. Okay, so one of the first things I did was I installed lighting. Now, like I said, this sounds like a rich person solution, right?

Tonya Kubo (14:21)
I

was gonna say I need more info on this Kathi. Yeah?

Kathi Lipp (14:24)
Okay, Tonya, this may be

my favorite discovery so far of 2020. This may encompass 2024 and 2025. So I just did an AI search. How do I get lighting into my cupboard without rewiring things? And there is, and I’ll link it in the show notes, okay? You install a magnet on top of your cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (14:43)
Okay.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (14:53)
All right, and this magnet is the other side of the magnet of a light bar. Okay, it’s a light bar. So you can pull this light bar out, but it just slaps up there with a magnet. And you can recharge this light bar on a USB charger. So the same thing that you use to charge your cell phone, you can use this to recharge that bar. And here’s the beautiful thing, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (15:03)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:23)
it is motion activated. So.

Tonya Kubo (15:26)
So

you don’t have to worry about leaving it on.

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Right, it’s not a flip on flip off. It is when I open the cupboard, it flips on and when I close the cupboard, it turns off. And we’ve had this for about three months now and have not had to recharge it yet.

Tonya Kubo (15:44)
that is so nice because we have tap lights in our deep cabinets, but the problem is as they get left on and then they overheat.

Kathi Lipp (15:47)
Yes, yeah, right.

we don’t want that.

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
No, you do not want overheating. No, that’s a bad idea. So this with the motion activate. my gosh, this is brilliant. How’d you find him, Kathi? AI. It was AI.

Kathi Lipp (15:56)
No.

I just, AI, I just said, here’s the

problem, here’s the problem. And it said, have you tried this? I’m like, why no, I haven’t tried that. So I will link those. You can get them on Amazon. You can get them at Lowe’s. You can get them anywhere. They’re one, they are life-changing. Can I tell you, nothing makes me smile more these days than opening that cabinet and the light coming on after six years of it being a cave.

Tonya Kubo (16:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, well, that would make me smile. I’m going to smile the next time I’m at your house and I get to use it. If you find me in your kitchen just opening and closing the cabinet, you’ll know what I’m doing now.

Kathi Lipp (16:33)
Yes.

Yes. Yes.

I would

not blame you at all. I would not blame you at all.

Tonya Kubo (16:45)
Okay, so that has to be like the highlight of this episode for me personally, but there is more to the pots and pans area in a kitchen than just that. What are you doing it with bakeware?

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
Yeah, yes. Yes.

Yeah, so let’s talk about the infamous muffin tins and like little cookie sheets and things like that. got, and guys, we’re gonna link all of this in the podcast notes so you can go and check out exactly what we’re talking. Cause isn’t a podcast the best place to display storage organization, right? know, my audio is our best forms, yes. But we will put it in the show notes. This is just a wire wrap.

Tonya Kubo (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Why yes, yes it is. Show notes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)
that

is, it’s a little bit wider than like what you would use to organize papers. But I just have it all standing up and it’s easy to grab. And you can see what you have. So it’s just a simple wire organizer. But the main thing is you have to declutter what you’re not using because if you’re still are trying to organize chaos, it’s never going to happen.

Tonya Kubo (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:50)
But if you’re organizing what you actually use, it’s gonna be beautiful.

Tonya Kubo (17:55)
Yeah, well, and I like that idea because, with cookie sheets or baking sheets, I guess we call them because we don’t just put cookies on them. Muffin tins and such. Stacking them flat just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Kathi Lipp (18:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

It doesn’t

work, it doesn’t work. And this simple thing just saves me so much time and rummaging around. I’m no longer banging things around. I hate being frustrated. I hate being frustrated in the kitchen and this has solved a lot of that frustration.

Tonya Kubo (18:14)
Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, okay, so before we run out of time, you mentioned earlier about having a lids solution. Talk to me about pots, lids, all that good stuff.

Kathi Lipp (18:29)
Yeah.

Well, okay,

so this, after the light situation, this may be my favorite thing. This is, it’s hard to describe. It’s like a tower that is, has separate shelves that you can store your pots, your pans, and your lids on. Now, a lid solution for you, Tonya, because you don’t store your pots and pans like that, could just be that wire rack we talked about.

Tonya Kubo (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that’s

what I was thinking about. I was like, some people are gonna get that for baking sheets. I might be getting that for my lids.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yes.

Yes,

absolutely, absolutely. But this one, the one that I got, it just has different shelves jutting out from it. And I have got it all set up for my fry pans and things like that. And I just bought one for my pots, because I wanted to buy one to see, does this actually work for me? And Roger and I, who have very different organizational styles,

Tonya Kubo (19:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:33)
Like everything we’ve talked about here so far has worked for both of us. yeah, so that’s, talk about miracles. But it keeps your pots upright. You’re not scratching your pots and pans by stacking them inside. And let’s be honest, pots don’t stack nicely, you know, with the handles and stuff. So it makes it so much easier. The one thing I’m going to tell you though is before you order, measure.

Tonya Kubo (19:38)
nice.

They don’t. No.

Kathi Lipp (20:03)
You know, well, here’s the thing. When I went on Amazon to order this, it said it had a satisfaction ranking of like 4.7, but it said this is an often returned item. I’m like, well, if people are so satisfied, why are they returning it? Because it didn’t fit in their cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (20:05)
This sounds like the voice of experience.

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (20:30)
That

was my own sleuthing. So finally I’m getting smart. I’ve got one thing I bought for everybody at Christmas in 2023 were these mini measuring tapes. They look like dull measuring tapes, but they go out, I think either two or three feet and I keep one in my kitchen. And before I order something, I make sure that I can measure that space. And it makes such a difference.

Tonya Kubo (20:38)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

cool. Can we put that in the show notes too, Kathi? Okay. Measuring tape. I put Barbie measuring tape on my notes because I’ll know what that means. Okay. So let me recap really quickly because we are out of time, but you’re so you minimize by getting rid of the specialty items. You got rid of the duplicates and then your three tips in terms of organizing what was left is you got a light.

Kathi Lipp (21:02)
Yes, I will make a note to do that.

Yes, exactly, perfect. Yes, exactly.

guess.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)
that is rechargeable does not involve rewiring anything nor the investment that it would take for electrical systems like that. You got a bakeware rack so that you can vertically stack your cookie sheets, your muffin tins. Then you got a pot organizer, which I think the pot organizer is my favorite idea too, even though it doesn’t apply to my situation because I have had to get rid of really nice pots because they scratched.

Kathi Lipp (21:29)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

right, exactly.

Tonya Kubo (21:55)
They were too scratched up and I love

the idea of storing them in a way that keeps them protected like that. Is there anything else you would add for us today?

Kathi Lipp (22:01)
Yeah.

say that if you think you need everything that you have but there are some things that are iffy could you put those things into a storage container for like three months and see if you actually use them and if you’re not using them then that’s your sign to say it’s okay to give them away and also another thing to think about is

Tonya Kubo (22:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:35)
there are some libraries that will let you check out cake pans. So if cake pans are something that you are interested in, I love libraries these days. It’s not just about books anymore. You could go check out a Thomas the Tankin, or let’s be clear, let’s bring it for 2025, a bluey cake pan, right? That’s right. And so you could check that out.

Tonya Kubo (22:48)
I love libraries too.

Bluey cake pan baby.

Kathi Lipp (23:05)
and not have to store it in your house, which I think those are two tips about keeping some of that chaos out of your house. That’ll make it much easier. And by the way, Tonya, this is gonna be so much easier to clean. And you know, it’s.

Tonya Kubo (23:17)
What I was gonna

ask, like now that it is all organized, I think one of the issues I see from listeners who write in is keeping it that way. And so, you you brought up some good points is you’re not gonna restock with specialty cake pans if you can check your local library first. It’s easier to clean. Any recommendations when it comes to cleaning?

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yes.

I love a good handi-vac, I’m not gonna lie. That’s my favorite thing to do. And then if you are, I just, let’s keep it simple, just a rag. And I love the Method grapefruit. Have you ever smelled that? You may have smelled it at my house, yeah. Or somebody, yeah, I don’t like the taste of grapefruit, but the smell makes me so happy. And.

Tonya Kubo (23:42)
Okay. I love a good handiwork too.

Mmm, I do. I like a good grapefruit smell.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:05)
I don’t have to do it very often because we’re not putting dirty things in there, but you know, every once in a while, but just that handy vac going around there, guys, I want you to smile when you go to your pots and pans. And I didn’t know that was a space that could make me smile, but it really does.

Tonya Kubo (24:23)
my gosh, well hey, I think every part of your house, like you deserve for every part of your house to make you smile. And so what I would love to do is I would love to invite our listeners to join us in our Facebook group. That’s Kathi with an I dot link slash CFA. And I want to see their before and after transformations of their pots and pans cabinets. And of course, if there’s any questions that they might have. Anything else you want to add before we sign off, Kathi?

Kathi Lipp (24:29)
Hmm. Yes.

Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, we have this great download just step by steps and steps of how to you know Obviously my thought is listen to this podcast episode on repeat as you’re doing this because you’ll feel encouraged But we also have a download that you can go and get the step-by-steps to clean out that cupboard Yeah, all of that, but look at our show notes to go check out those Amazon links I think those will really encourage you and it’s going to provide solutions

Tonya Kubo (25:02)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:19)
for like, can’t I keep this organized? We got you, we got you.

Tonya Kubo (25:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. So check the show notes for the Amazon links, check the show notes for a link to the Facebook group and check the show notes for the download. That I think is especially important.

Kathi Lipp (25:35)
Perfect.

See you.

Tonya Kubo (25:43)
I don’t have the script for the close.

Kathi Lipp (25:45)
I’m

sorry, my bad. Well, friends, we, Tonya and I hope that we’ve given you some ideas and some encouragements to do that corner of your house that, you know, has maybe been driving you crazy, but there are solutions and we wanna take all of those hurdles out of the way when it comes to getting dinner on the table and this is a great place to start. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now.

Go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

Apr 22, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo delve into the importance of a tidy nightstand for a better night's sleep and a more organized life. They discuss Kathi's recent purchase of new nightstands with built-in outlets, her nighttime routine...

#665 – Declutter Your Spice Cabinet: From Chaos to Cooking Bliss

Apr 15, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo tackle one of the most deceptively frustrating spots in your kitchen: the spice cabinet. If you’ve ever bought a second (or sixth) bottle of basil because you couldn’t find the first one, or had cumin...

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

Apr 8, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this laugh-out-loud and surprisingly transformational episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep—literally—into the drawer that gets no love but causes a whole lot of frustration: your sock and underwear drawer. From chicken footprints and...

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Listen Now

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of “Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women.” Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering actionable steps to create a more welcoming space and build connections within our communities. Whether you’re struggling with isolation due to clutter, life circumstances, or anything in between, this episode promises to equip you with practical, faith-driven insights to overcome loneliness. Don’t miss this valuable conversation that could inspire you to transform both your living space and your heart.

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As mentioned by Kathi:

Praying Through Loneliness – Kristen Strong

Jessica’s House

(in)courage – a DaySpring community

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Praying Through Loneliness – Kristen Strong

Jessica’s House

(in)courage – a DaySpring community

Clutter Free Resources:

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Meet Our Guest

Kristen Strong

Kristen Strong is an author and speaker who specializes in writing about friendship, belonging, and navigating life’s transitions. As a military spouse married to a U.S. Air Force veteran of 26 years’ service, she brings unique insight into building community and finding belonging despite frequent moves and changes. Kristen has authored several books, including “Praying Through Loneliness,” “Friends Are Family We Choose,” “When Change Finds You,” “Back Roads to Belonging,” and “Girl Meets Change.” Originally from Oklahoma, she now lives in Colorado Springs with her husband David, and they are parents to three adult children, including twins. A regular contributor to (in)courage, Kristen’s writing focuses on helping women build meaningful friendships and find hope through life’s various seasons of change.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:13)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps every day to live with less clutter and more life. And I have a very special treat here today. As many of you know, I write for the Hallmark Day Spring organization, Encourage, and this is one of my Encourage sisters. Let’s just say I’m one of her little sisters because she has been doing this a lot longer than I have.

Kristen (00:38)
you

Kathi Lipp (00:41)
Guys, it is Kristin Strong and she is the author of the new book, Praying Through Loneliness, a 90 day devotional for women. And when I say that she is the author, we’ll talk more about that. Kristin, welcome to the podcast. I’m so thrilled to have you on here.

Kristen (00:54)
you

thanks for having me, Kathy. I’m so happy to be here too.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
You know, it’s when we were originally talking about this book and I’m very excited because I got to be a part of this book and we’ll talk a little bit more about that later on. But, you know, I was like, I don’t know about praying through loneliness as necessarily a podcast episode just because I want to keep it centered on decluttering. My people show up for decluttering. I want to serve them for where they need. But the more I thought about it,

the more, you know, what kept coming to my mind is this phrase over and over again, clutter isn’t just about stuff, it’s about separation. And as I thought about it, you know, before I really went on my decluttering journey and got a little bit of freedom from all of this clutter, I remember it was very isolating. One of my, it’s a joke, but it’s not a joke, that 20 years ago,

If you showed up unexpectedly at my house for coffee, I would have served you on the front porch. I would often be embarrassed. Now, if I wanted to throw a party as long as I had two weeks notice and I killed myself, I wouldn’t say necessarily decluttering, but hiding all the clutter, I could do that. But I just found that…

Kristen (02:07)
you

Kathi Lipp (02:27)
I was in a place of shame and I was in a place of discouragement and fear that people would find out. And I think that a lot of people are in that circumstance that people don’t want to invite people over.

Kristen (02:31)
Mm.

you

Kathi Lipp (02:45)
or they don’t necessarily want their kids to invite friends over. Now, I’m guessing that clutter isn’t a struggle for you as much as it might be for some of my listeners, and maybe that’s not true, but I think we’ve all felt places of isolation and loneliness. What caused you to write this book? Where was the loneliness in your life showing up, Kristen?

Kristen (03:13)
Well, this may be surprising actually, the reason, how this book actually came to be is I had presented a book proposal, know, shopped it out to different publishers on a similar but different topic. the publisher really liked that. And actually that book is releasing in the spring.

Kathi Lipp (03:33)
Yeah.

Kristen (03:39)
But they, I thank you, thank you. But they, they had a, they’d already had like a couple of other books in a series of praying through serious praying through cancer, praying through infertility. And they really wanted to do a praying through loneliness. So as they read my proposal, they’re like, there’s really something here where we could.

Kathi Lipp (03:39)
Woohoo!

Mm, okay.

you

Kristen (04:01)
kind of also do a little pivot project that in line with these other two we’ve already done. And they asked me if I’d be interested in it. And you know, I’ve always really liked editing. And so I was like, yeah, I could just kind of get to get into the editing, you know, mucking the mire a little bit. And so that sounds, you know, like something I would like to do. And I felt at that point in my life really,

Kathi Lipp (04:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (04:28)
I’ve been a military wife for almost 20 years and certainly that brings up a recurring cycle of loneliness.

Kathi Lipp (04:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristen (04:38)
But I’d also lived in my kind of adopted hometown now of Colorado Springs, Colorado for over 10 years. And I started to understand how, you you can still, you can not move every whip stitch and still be real lonely. And so, you know, kind of bringing both of those into that, you know, as well as that follow on project I mentioned, you know, was, was something I was happy to talk about.

Kathi Lipp (04:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, I it’s interesting right because sometimes we can blame our loneliness on our circumstances but sometimes it is just The deeper truth in our life that we can be surrounded by a lot of people we can be a surrounded you know, we could have all the things that make it look like they should be fine and Inside still feeling that isolation and loneliness, you know

Kristen (05:21)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Kathi Lipp (05:37)
One one

of the interesting things about this book how many different contributors did you have to this book?

Kristen (05:43)
It was north of 45. yeah, yeah. So quite a few ended up contributing. You know, yeah, just the way it worked out. You know, I wanted to post a fewer contributors, but more pieces from each one. But then the way it kind of just worked out where people were, you know, were interested in just contributing one or two pieces. Then I was like, well, then that’s more voices. So that’s, you know, that’s great. So.

Kathi Lipp (05:46)
my goodness.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. We love to hear

more voices. I think that that’s really solid. Yeah, so the piece I wrote for this book actually was about chickens. thank you so much. You know, chickens will teach you a lot. And it’s so interesting because we had three old guard kind of chickens. We call them the OG, the original gangsters.

Kristen (06:13)
Mm-hmm.

It’s one of my favorites. I love it so much.

Hahaha.

Kathi Lipp (06:39)
And I didn’t

know this until I had chickens, but there really is a pecking order. There is a pecking order that the bigger battered chickens will let the lesser chickens know that they’re in trouble. And in this particular group, we had three old guard, and then we had Rocky and Bullwinkle, and Rocky was the smallest and the one who got picked on the most. And so when it was time to open up the coop, the three big girls would go,

Kristen (06:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:08)
Into the run, you know where they could see everything and they they wanted to be the first out the door when I let them out so that they could go, you know, see if there were worms or see if there was a new blade of grass and Bullwinkle would go out with them too. But when the door would open Bullwinkle would go back into the coop and let Rocky know you’re you’re okay. It’s okay to come out and

Kristen (07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:37)
I mean, I sit here and I think about it and it brings me to tears because I think about the way that I’ve needed some bullwinkles in my life to come back and say, you’re gonna be okay. I’m here with you. I’m not leaving you alone. I think in so many of my friends’ lives, whether they’ve been going through a divorce, whether they have

Kristen (07:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:06)
a medical diagnosis that has made them feel isolated, or in the case of many of the people who are listening here today, we just need somebody to tell us that we’re gonna be okay. And I wonder what you read from all those contributors or what you, first of all, if you’re the bullwinkle, if you’re the one who’s wanting to let somebody know they’re going to be okay,

Kristen (08:19)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)
How do you help the people who are struggling with isolation in your life? Maybe you’re not struggling, but you have a friend who’s going through a tough time. What did you learn from reading all these essays that might be able to help somebody who’s listening today, who wants to help that person who’s feeling isolated because of their clutter or because of something else going on in their lives?

Kristen (08:42)
Mm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, I think one of the great things I learned was what you shared, Kathy. You talked about the one more question, you know, just taking that time, you know, you you might ask somebody, well, how’s it going? And they’re like, doing OK. But you know how sometimes you can just sense like they’re saying they’re OK, but none of what I’m seeing is matching what they’re saying, you know. And so just I love the idea. And I’ve thought of that so many times since reading your piece about

Kathi Lipp (09:20)
Right, right.

Kristen (09:29)
just asking one more question, like even just, are you sure like it’s going okay, you know? And I just think that gives people that extra opportunity, that permission really, you know, cause you know, you don’t want to be a burden to people. And sometimes you think like, they don’t have time right now or they got a lot going on. And so I, you know, I’ll save it for another time. But when you ask, when you take a minute to go, are you sure everything’s going okay or…

Kathi Lipp (09:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (09:57)
you know, just probing a smidge deeper. It does a lot to give somebody that permission to feel they can share. And I would say that’s the other thing I learned is it’s not just, or had maybe re, I relearned perhaps, that it’s not just taking the time to ask those one more questions or to check in on your people. You know, send a little text, you know.

Kathi Lipp (10:13)
Mm-hmm.

Kristen (10:22)
take the time to tell them happy birthday when you remember things like that. But also then when you are like asking the one more question, it’s incumbent on the person on the receiving end to also be like, okay, I’m gonna, I just need to be vulnerable and share and not just refuse to do that. You know, it’s kind of both parts I think are really, really important in helping those.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
Right.

Right.

Kristen (10:47)
you know, folks that are mitigating loneliness or going through a hard season of loneliness.

Kathi Lipp (10:53)
You know, it’s so interesting. I love how

God lines things up. We had our neighbor lost her husband three months ago, very unexpectedly, very quickly with cancer. And we had asked her to come over for dinner and she said, I’m not ready. And we said, we totally get it. And then she said, I think I’m ready. And so it was planned for Monday, you know, last Monday.

Kristen (11:03)
Mmm.

Mm. Ugh.

Kathi Lipp (11:22)
Well, the week before, I was doing a day-long coaching with two women who were part of a, are, one was the founder of Jessica’s House, which helps people in grief. And as we were going through the coaching, we were talking about what their audience’s fears are. And I’m like, let me tell you my fear.

Kristen (11:38)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:47)
I fear I’m going to say something stupid. I’ve got this woman coming to dinner on Monday and she said, you know, here’s something to say because instead of asking, how are you doing? The example you used was perfect. But like when you know somebody is going through grief, instead of saying, how are you doing? You just say, I’m so glad you’re here or I’m so glad.

Kristen (12:04)
Right, right.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:15)
that I get to spend time with you tonight. And it was, it got, and then she said, the other thing to do is to mirror the person in front of you. So if she’s crying, it’s okay to cry. But if she is telling stories about the person she loves, and she said, go with that, ask, how did you guys meet? How, you know, where were you living when you met?

Kristen (12:27)
Mmm.

Mmmmm

Kathi Lipp (12:43)
And it gave me ways to get connected and to bridge that awkwardness that I think so many of us, when we know somebody maybe is hurting or is maybe feeling isolated because of circumstances, I love that God lined that up for the Thursday before the Monday. And I got to go in with a game plan. And that’s what I feel like so much of your book is, is people who have said, I have been lonely, so.

Kristen (12:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (13:12)
this is what I needed and I’ve had people in my life and this is how I reached out. So here’s what I wanna do. We’re gonna take a quick break and we’re gonna come back and I wanna talk about when you are that person is isolated. How do you take those next steps? So we’ll be back with Kristen Strong in just a moment.

Kristen (13:29)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (13:38)
Okay, friends, we talked about if you are the person who’s reaching back, if you’re the bullwinkle in the situation, you’re going back into the chicken coop and saying, it’s okay, Rocky, you can come out, they’re not going to terrorize you. But what if you’re the one who’s feeling isolated? It’s hard to be around people, especially, let’s talk about in the aspect of clutter, if you are feeling like what, so I want to give a couple of suggestions and then Kristen, I’m going to ask for a couple of suggestions.

Kristen (13:51)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:07)
from you. So one thing is, I would love to see you create one clutter free space. Your house does not have to be perfect. In fact, perfect makes people uneasy. It really does. But is there a little space in your house? Could it be two chairs at the dining room table? Could it be one couch in your living room that has a little coffee table there?

Kristen (14:14)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:34)
and you could just bring out some coffee. And you know what? If it needs to be your front porch right now, let it be the front porch. Unless you’re in one of those cold places in the United States right now. But if you’re saying my clutter feels ice laying, then I’m gonna ask you, you know what? Get a gift card to Starbucks and say, you know, I’ve got this $20 gift card to Starbucks. I would love to share it with you. Can we meet at the one over on Bollinger and Miller?

Kristen (14:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:03)
You know, set

up a space. If you’re feeling isolated and you’re feeling like, I don’t even know if I reach out, I’m scared to reach out because I wonder if I’ll be rejected. How do you start to get brave enough to do that, Kristen? Or what is one step that somebody who is feeling isolated could take?

Kristen (15:20)
Mm-hmm.

I think, well, can I give like a tiny story with it? So, and I wrote about this in that subsequent project I mentioned, but when I was a newer military wife, I had two young, I had twin, I don’t know, they must’ve been two year olds at the time. And we lived on base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. when you, listen, when you live on base, like picture the most un…

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Yes, please. I would love it.

Kristen (15:51)
sexy housing, know, it’s like, you know, it’s like wall to wall linoleum and there’s no carpet even there’s just like the linoleum floors that are for mica cabinets. Anyway, I invited our some of the group in the neighborhood I was we were getting to know I invited them over for dinner. And then I panicked to the day before I was like,

Kathi Lipp (15:53)
Right. Yeah.

Kristen (16:14)
my house is not up to snuff for company. So I asked the girl I was the most close with, Rebecca, we’re still good friends today, but I asked Rebecca, I said, if I bring all the food over, can you just have everybody at your house? I essentially invited, you know, with kids, like 25 people to her house. And so she graciously said yes, but you know.

Kathi Lipp (16:18)
you

Yeah. my goodness.

Kristen (16:41)
like I really put her on the spot there and just realized like that was not a friend move right there. Especially in we all have the same house. like it was extra silly of me. But I say all that to say that I get like being scared to invite folks over. And I just think that like anything in life, if the more you practice it, the more you get successful at it. And, you know, I there I

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (17:10)
I used to have this quote on our refrigerator and I think it was by I think maybe Irma Bombeck, but it said like, if you’re coming to see me, come on over. If you’re coming to see my house, call ahead, you know, and I just think, you know, I think most folks are coming to see you. It’s like you alluded to, Kathy, you know, I don’t want to go to a museum for dinner. I’m not going to relax. I’m going to be real tense the whole time. But I want, yeah, I I feel like a little bit of mess just

Kathi Lipp (17:22)
Right.

Right. Yes.

Kristen (17:38)
makes me like relax more and know that, you know, people don’t care.

Kathi Lipp (17:41)
Right.

especially if you’re bringing kids or, you know, it’s going to be, and I always think, you know, find that one spot in your house. Maybe it’s your backyard. Maybe it’s the kitchen table where you can just lean in and connect because here’s what I know. If you’re feeling lonely, there are other people around you who are feeling that same thing.

Kristen (17:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:07)
and

so desperately needs somebody to reach out. And so, yeah, it doesn’t have to be in your house. It could be, let’s meet at the park and I’ll pack a picnic lunch for the rest of us. Do you have, right? It doesn’t have to be in your home, but at the same time, maybe saying, okay, if I can get my living room to where I know that nobody’s gonna sit on anything sharp, we’re good to go. Like, you know, that’s…

Kristen (18:12)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

absolutely.

Yeah!

Kathi Lipp (18:36)
The baseline, that’s the baseline. What have you discovered about loneliness that you didn’t know before this project?

Kristen (18:38)
Yeah.

I think just how many different kinds of loneliness there are before this project. You know, and even when the publisher and I were going over it,

Kathi Lipp (18:51)
Hmm

Kristen (18:58)
it was very loneliness in terms of friendship, which is certainly a big valid kind of loneliness. But when I started talking with authors and they’re describing loneliness through chronic illness or loneliness because a close loved one died, the loneliness of looking different, the loneliness of being an empty nester, there’s just so many very, there’s so many.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (19:25)
kinds of loneliness. And the interesting thing is, is though we all experience loneliness, you know, often in different ways, the pain in the midst of it is the same. So then the help you can get from it, even if you’re reading a devotional in the book that, you know, you may not identify with what the author exactly went through, you will glean a lot from the takeaways that she offers.

Kathi Lipp (19:36)
Mmm, yeah.

You know, we’re talking a lot about loneliness and some very actionable steps. I really like practical solutions. But prayer is part of this as well. And, you know, for me, the prayer, what prayer does is even if I’m not being fully honest with anybody else, maybe I’m not even being honest 100 % with my husband because I don’t want him to carry my burden.

I don’t want my mom to carry my burden, but I can always be fully authentic with God and say, this is where my pain’s coming from. And I love that God is the God of creativity and may come up with solutions that I wouldn’t even think to broach. How has prayer broken that stronghold of loneliness in your life?

Kristen (20:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

think because it really does show me how when you have nobody else around to help with to help just to help you feel less lonely when you have nobody else around God’s presence is enough and you can never get to that point of knowing it’s enough unless you know he’s he’s

the only one you really have. And I don’t mean to say that. I don’t mean to exaggerate. know, you know, Corey, Corey Tinboom said in when she was in the concentration camp, you never know that Jesus is all you need until Jesus is all you have. I’ve never been that lonely. Thank you. Thanks the good Lord. But, but I have had times where, and a story I write about in the book where I was worried I was having a miscarriage. My husband,

Kathi Lipp (21:14)
Yeah. No.

No, I have not either. Right.

Kristen (21:41)
was the nature of his job was unreachable at the time. I’m going to the ER by myself, know, no family around, no friends that I feel like, you know, I can call it like about 10, 11 PM when that happened. So, you know, like I have had times when I’ve been lonely and, and yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

That is a depths of loneliness that not

everybody has ever experienced.

Kristen (22:03)
Yeah, and so but I also experienced the depth of Jesus’s presence in that moment, you know when That I wouldn’t have necessarily experienced if if I’d had a posse of people around me, you know,

Kathi Lipp (22:08)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So guys,

if you are feeling that bitterness of loneliness and guys, I have been there, you I lived overseas. didn’t there was nobody who who, you know, I barely had people who spoke the same language as me because I didn’t know their language. There is loneliness there. But also, I know that when we experience that loneliness, God

Kristen (22:29)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (22:47)
can meet us in that space and that place. And if you want to hear the stories of 40 plus other women who have been in that place and how God and others have met them, praying through loneliness, a 90 day devotional for women. Kristen, thanks so much for being on Clutter Free Academy.

Kristen (23:08)
thank you for having me. I love what you’re doing here, you and your community, and I’m grateful for you, Kathy.

Kathi Lipp (23:14)
My community is the best community. I mean, I’m not comparing, but I’m just going to say they really are the best human beings and friends. If you want to pick up this book for yourself or maybe for somebody you love, available. We’ll put the link in the show notes, but it’s available everywhere. You want to buy books. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathy Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Kristen (23:15)
You

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