#663 &#8211; Coat Closet Decluttering Secrets: A Step-by-Step Guide

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps every day to live with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my favorite Clutter co-conspirator. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. okay. It’s time for us to come out of the closet on this one. Do you have a coat closet? Okay, see, easy. Your solution is here.

Tonya Kubo (00:23)

Hey, Kathi.

No.

My whole house

has two closets. That’s it.

Kathi Lipp (00:40)

I Tonya I don’t even know I can’t oh my goodness you know what you

Tonya Kubo (00:45)

It’s okay. It’s okay.

I wish I had a coat closet. Not gonna lie.

Kathi Lipp (00:51)

You’ve made your house work without a coat closet. Okay, so let’s talk about this in some generalities. We have a coat closet. I don’t know if you remember what that coat closet looks like, but it did not come with the house. It’s a built-in. So it’s very different kind of situation that doesn’t work for everybody, but it’s really helped us.

Tonya Kubo (00:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Yes!

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:20)

Can I just say our coat closet can become a catchall? And yeah, it’s not great. And so I want to talk coat closets today. I think a lot of listeners will identify this, that I have spent many years avoiding opening my coat closet, afraid that random stuff is going to fall out. But today we are going to share a game plan to fix that.

Tonya Kubo (01:49)

Oooooh! I like a good game plan even if it doesn’t apply to my specific situation.

Kathi Lipp (01:50)

Yes.

It’s a big promise, I’m not gonna lie. You know what, and if you don’t have a coat closet like Tonya, think of this maybe as what is your launch pad? What is the launch pad for getting out of the house? Because we all have to have that. So this is not going to directly impact you, but this may give you some ideas.

Tonya Kubo (02:05)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so you mentioned that your coat closet got a little scary. So why don’t you start us off with like, were the biggest challenges that you were facing before you got on top of it?

Kathi Lipp (02:29)

Okay, so can we, is there a word that’s multi-seasonality? okay, I just made, yeah, I get to make up words. I love that so much. So what the problem was is there were too many things living in that closet at the same time. You know, we had not only, granted, where we live, we need to keep some different things in our coat closet.

Tonya Kubo (02:36)

You just made it up, Kathi. That’s okay. You are an author. You are allowed to make up words as much as you want.

Hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:59)

Like a lot of our listeners do live in snow country, so they may need to keep a snow scraper in that coat closet. Most of our listeners don’t need to keep bear spray in there. But you know.

Tonya Kubo (03:08)

I was just gonna

say, but in your coat closet you have to keep bear spray and pain reliever.

Kathi Lipp (03:13)

We do.

And pain reliever, have some different drawers that we’ll talk about in a different episode. But the major coat area, you know, we were keeping our spring coats in there and, you know, that little summer jacket and the big heavy winter coat. There was just, there was a lot going on and it was just a great place to stash stuff. And yeah, it got a little…

Tonya Kubo (03:19)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:41)

It was out of control, we couldn’t find things. Things were not there when they needed to be and their coats sometimes got jammed in because we ran out of hangers. Random items on the base of it. Just, I mean, no real system, no real system.

Tonya Kubo (04:00)

Yeah, well, it sounds like it had quite the impact on just the day to day life, right? Like just it takes more time to do things when you have to like devote time to digging through.

Kathi Lipp (04:05)

Yeah.

Why do we own seven hats if we can’t find one when we need to leave the house? Like these are, yeah. Or why do we need six dog leashes if there’s never anywhere they’re supposed to be? And it wasn’t that it made me late for stuff, you know, because anywhere I’m going, it’s gonna take an hour and a half. So I left plenty of times. But we would forget stuff all the time because, you know, what was hidden was forgotten.

Tonya Kubo (04:15)

Or the right one.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So can you walk us through sort of what was the first move there?

Kathi Lipp (04:47)

Okay, so I’m not normally a big fan of this, especially for large areas, but for this coat closet, I will recommend pulling at least categories out at all at once. So things like pulling out all the coats, or maybe pulling out all the scarves, or hats, or things like that.

Tonya Kubo (04:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:15)

And then really deciding what did we actually need? Do I actually wear this coat? If not, it got donated. Donating good things, things in good condition. We didn’t have a lot of stuff that was in bad condition, but if it was rarely worn, one question was, okay, maybe I only wear this once a year. I have a fancy coat, okay? I have a.

Tonya Kubo (05:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:43)

It’s not fancy, but it’s a nice coat. got it for a business trip in Chicago. I rarely wear it. Does that need to be in the front hall closet? I consider that prime real estate. So I just decided to keep that in my bedroom closet and I could pull it out when I needed it. So it’s really curating what we needed in each category. Why do I have seven beanies?

Tonya Kubo (05:50)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:13)

I don’t know, because they were, I don’t know. Yeah, maybe somebody gave me one. Let’s be honest, they were on sale at Costco. Let’s just be honest. So there were things like that, but I don’t need all of those. So the first thing really was removing those extra coats. You asked me what the first step was, it was removing extra coats and things that just didn’t need to be there.

Tonya Kubo (06:14)

I was gonna say, why did you have seven meetings? mean, no judgment, just curious.

Right.

Okay and then what came after that do you think?

Kathi Lipp (06:45)

So that’s when we, I don’t know about you, Tonya, but there was just so much nonsense, so much nonsense. Like why were tools in there? Explain to, why? I don’t know. I think, just for now, it’s so true, it’s so true. And then why was there mail in there? Like that’s not where the mail goes.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)

Well, cause you put it there just for now until you decide where you really want it, right?

no, no, I understand. I will explain why there was mail there. Because you came inside the house and you had the mail in your hand and you had your coat on. And so you put the mail down so that you can take off your coat. But while you’re taking off your coat, another idea entered your brain. And so you pivoted around and you went to go take action on that other idea, completely forgetting.

Kathi Lipp (07:13)

Okay, please tell me.

Yes, yes, yeah.

Yes.

Go.

Tonya Kubo (07:36)

that your mail is inside the coat closet. The same thing is also what happens to your remote control. Mine’s usually in the fridge.

Kathi Lipp (07:42)

my goodness. my goodness. Okay, I’ve never done that. That’s impressive. I have to say. Ours gets lost in the bed sheets all the time. And then in the middle of the night, we’re like, why? Why did friends just pop on? Because Moose was walking across the bed. Yes. Okay, we each house has its own problems, right? Yeah. So to really decide, like each space in your house has to have its own purpose. And so I need

Tonya Kubo (07:47)

all the time.

You

No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:10)

It’s okay for me to put the mail on the front table as long as I’m putting the mail the same place each time and the coat closet is probably not it.

Tonya Kubo (08:15)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, the coat closet’s not it because a coat closet has a door. You will never see the mail again. That’s just what happens. Okay, so, you know, I hesitate to ask this question because I think some people are gonna roll their eyes and go, gee whiz, Tonya, it’s a coat closet. You can’t have emotional connections to your coats. But I happen to know that our listeners and our community members who are over in Clutterfree Academy and Clutterfree for Life struggle with emotional connections.

Kathi Lipp (08:25)

Yes, exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (08:51)

to items that other people don’t understand. So I’m curious, was there any of that as you were going through your coat closet, anything where you felt emotionally connected to having it there or where you really felt strongly about needing it to be there just in case something were to happen?

Kathi Lipp (09:08)

Okay, so not this version of the coat closet, but I will talk about the version we had at our house in San Jose and That was the army green jacket that I had in Japan and You know what? Okay, so Some of the best memories I had in my life before I married Roger Happened in that army green jacket now. I will also say

Tonya Kubo (09:15)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:37)

I did not wear that same size army green jacket for a very long, pretty much my whole first marriage and much of my second marriage, but I couldn’t get rid of it. And so what finally made me get rid of it, this is so embarrassing. I had some dog treats in it apparently, and we had a little bit of an infestation at our house. And yeah.

Tonya Kubo (09:46)

Yeah.

Hmm.

yeah, that happens.

Kathi Lipp (10:05)

And so we had to get rid of the jacket. yeah, it hung in my house without being used for years and years and years. And what I wish I would have done was give it to somebody. Because there’s some kid, some emo kid would have loved that jacket. I could have given it to Lily at some point, right? Yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (10:16)

Yeah.

Yes, yes!

You totally could have given it to Lilly. You totally could have.

Because she was definitely in an army green phase before she was in her black on black phase, which is where we’re at right now.

Kathi Lipp (10:33)

Yes, and

we all have some of those things that it’s like, okay, I’ll get back into it. Or you know what, maybe somebody will come visit me at the house and they need an army green jacket. know, like, these are all things. And when you have chaos like that, you don’t use the stuff that you have. It’s really, we stash things in there because we’re thinking we’ll deal with it later. Like you said earlier,

Tonya Kubo (10:46)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (11:01)

But today, let’s all handle that. Let’s handle our business, Tonya. Let’s, yeah, yes.

Tonya Kubo (11:05)

Yeah, let’s handle the business for the here and now as

it comes. So, okay, we’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, you are gonna talk to us about matching hangers. I’m very curious about hearing more of this. Hanging bins and more. All right, so we’ll see you after the break.

Kathi Lipp (11:18)

Yes, okay. Yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (11:26)

All right, well, welcome back. So Kathi, I can’t remember if I heard this on a Facebook live you did or if it was something you did in our membership community, but I have heard you in the past say that matching hangers can transform the look of any space that has hangers instantly. I need you to tell me more about

Kathi Lipp (11:34)

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so you said in our last podcast episode that you think every space in our house could potentially be one that brings us joy when we go there. And can I tell you one of the cheat codes to joy is matching hangers. And here’s what I love about that. And it doesn’t have to be expensive hangers. I will tell you for my personal closet upstairs, I have those thin black.

Tonya Kubo (11:57)

Mm-hmm.

I believe that.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:16)

Velvet hangers the joy hangers Roger hates those with a fiery passion Okay, is it because they are Superman and they feel like they have to get dressed very quickly and the velvet slows them down Is it a textural issue? What is it for these guys? Okay, I Like them like that. Yes. Yes in our one of our guest rooms. We have matching

Tonya Kubo (12:17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian feels the same way. I love mine.

Brian says they’re too thin. That’s why I like them. I like them because they’re so thin.

Kathi Lipp (12:43)

red plastic hangers. They’re not fancy, but they get the job done. But in my coat closet, we have, and I’ve got a link to them. They’re just wood hangers. They’re not crazy expensive, but they look so nice. And here’s a couple of reasons why I like them. One, the hangers go back to the closet they’re supposed to go to. Can I say that again? The hangers go back to the closet they’re supposed to.

Tonya Kubo (12:44)

Mm-hmm.

you

Kathi Lipp (13:12)

So Roger doesn’t have wood hangers hanging out in his closet. I don’t have white plastic hangers from his closet hanging out in mine. And it curates your closet. If you have 12 hangers in your closet, maybe that’s eight for your coats and then four for guests. That’s plenty. That’s what we need. And there are only two people living in my house. Your house, but it also makes it look put together. It’s a very simple way.

Tonya Kubo (13:31)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (13:41)

for it to visually come together very, very quickly. I love them. And it prevents coat pileups, know, those hangers that, you know, they just make me want to keep the space looking good.

Tonya Kubo (13:54)

Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Well, and especially, like I can even see an application just household wide if everybody had their own like designated hanger, then you’re putting laundry away. It’s very easy to pick out whose stuff is whose. So I really like that idea. So, okay. So, but there’s some things I think that go in coat closets. I say I think because I currently don’t have one, but I used to have one.

Kathi Lipp (14:03)

Yeah. Right.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yes. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:18)

that don’t go on hangers, hats,

gloves, grocery bags. I mean, it depends on what you do, right? What do you do about that stuff?

Kathi Lipp (14:23)

Yeah.

Yes. Okay,

I’m gonna give you the best solution. I got these hanging baskets. They’re three tiers of hanging baskets. They hook on just like a hanger. So it’s got two hooks and it takes up a little bit of space, but we have one for gloves. We have one for scarves. We’ve got one for those grocery bags. I want you to think about it like this.

Tonya Kubo (14:37)

Okay?

Kathi Lipp (14:51)

What do I need to launch when I go out of the house? And if I open that coat closet, mine has two doors. That’s why if you’re watching the video here on YouTube, you will see me opening with two doors. But if you have those spaces, you can just open up and say, here’s everything I need to leave the house. And so having those hanging bins,

Tonya Kubo (14:57)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:17)

gives you things like, we have one for all of our moose supplies, know, so those, you know, poop bags and leashes and collars and things like that, reusable bags, bear spray, like there’s a space for everything. So nothing is on the bottom floor of that coat closet that you don’t want to be there.

Tonya Kubo (15:21)

Mm-hmm.

Great, okay, so you are always so good. This is the problem when we reverse roles is Kathi, you are always so good at counting us out and I have not been counting us out. So when it comes to decluttering the coat closet, so step one was you got rid of the coats you no longer wear. Step two was you don’t advocate this normally, but in the case of a small space like a coat closet, pulling everything out that doesn’t belong and then going through it and only putting the stuff back that makes sense. And then.

Kathi Lipp (15:50)

Yeah, that’s okay.

Yes.

Right. Right.

Tonya Kubo (16:09)

For step three, we talked about the matching hangers and just how that just feels good to look at. And then step four is hanging bins for the small items, the hats, the gloves, the grocery bags, bear spray in your case. All right, take me to step five.

Kathi Lipp (16:13)

Mm-hmm.

It feels great.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so we like to have in our coat closet our car keys wallets purses and Yeah, we’re putting a lot in that coat closet so I want to be able to see what I have and we we introduced the USB rechargeable light that you can put in by a magnet This is another great place for it if your coat closet doesn’t already have a light

Tonya Kubo (16:44)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:58)

Or maybe your coat closet is in a hall where there’s a light outside the hall, but there’s not one inside. May I highly suggest, and we’ll put it again in the show notes, this USB light that is just installed with a magnet. You don’t need to rewire anything. It will give you, you can see into every nook and cranny. But the other magical thing in here, the thing I cannot live without, command hooks. I love.

Tonya Kubo (17:24)

yes, we like those at our house

too.

Kathi Lipp (17:26)

Yes,

I love a good command hook. So I use a command hook. I personally, I do have a bunch of different purses for different activities. I like a good handbag, but my wallet is on a loop. And so I can just hang my wallet on a command hook. We can hang all of our keys on a command hook. You can also put, if you want to do,

Tonya Kubo (17:36)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:54)

like your grocery shopping bags. If you don’t wanna put them into one of those hanging bins, you could put those on a command hook. You can use those for a million different things and they just make your life so, so much better. Dog leash, other small items, you use accordingly.

Tonya Kubo (18:02)

Mmm.

Yeah, and so with the command hooks, you and we’ll link to those in the show notes as well. Those are nice because they attach with adhesive in most cases. And so you don’t have to worry about making holes anywhere or like, I don’t know, but if I have to put a screw or a nail in something suddenly that feels like home improvement and I’m not all about that life.

Kathi Lipp (18:23)

Yes.

Yes, right.

It’s a different level. What we’re talking about here, everything that we’ve shared about is A level. Or is it D, you know, is it F level? Let’s say it’s F level and A level is redoing your bathroom. No, we’re talking about stickers and hooks. That’s what we’re talking about here. Magnets, yes.

Tonya Kubo (18:37)

Yeah.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and so Kathi, you are the person who taught me about seasonal stuff, right? Because I grew up in a studio apartment with my mom, I’m used to everything being in one space all at the same time. But the last episode, we were talking a little bit about seasonal stuff, and we’re talking about seasonal stuff now with the coat closet especially. How do you rotate things or do you?

Kathi Lipp (19:05)

Right.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

And, Tonya, let’s also say you grew up in central California, where the seasons are not quite as different as they are in Minnesota. Right, exactly. And broiling hot, yes. So, yes, but living up here, I have definitely learned about seasonality. And so we just have a little space in our garage for out of season. So the same bin is either

Tonya Kubo (19:28)

Cold, not cold. That’s all we got.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:49)

summer or winter right now because we’re recording this in February, it’s going out in March. We have all of our bug spray, our sunscreen, all of that kind of stuff out in our garage in a bin and inside we have our scarves, our gloves, our ice scraper, that kind of thing. So think of your coat closet or your launch pad, whatever it is.

Tonya Kubo (20:11)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:16)

as one of the most valuable pieces of real estate in your house. And when you redo this, keep everything out of there that you are not potentially going to use in the next week or so. So like right now, I don’t have my summer jacket hanging in there. Yeah, and so just what I could open up and say, you know what? I have a purpose for almost everything in here in the next couple of weeks.

Tonya Kubo (20:30)

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, one more question, Kathi. What about the floor? Because I know some people have a strict, like, nothing goes on the floor rule in a closet. I know that you happen to be a space maximizer, so I have a feeling that you’ve got some solutions there.

Kathi Lipp (20:47)

Yes. Yeah.

Right.

Guess.

So here’s what I would say with that is that, you know, if I leave room for things like when my kids had backpacks for school, or if you have a folding grocery cart, if you live in a really urban area, you probably have a folding grocery cart that needs to go somewhere. Or do you have a bag of library books that need to be returned? You know, what?

Tonya Kubo (21:12)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:30)

whatever I grab on my way out, I also, if I was going to work every day, I might have my computer backpack there. Right now, those things are probably existing in your living space because on the floor of your coat closet is nonsense because that’s what was on the floor of my coat closet. So, you know,

Tonya Kubo (21:39)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)

So what I personally have on the floor of my coat closet, and my coat closet isn’t like a full length thing, it’s a half length thing, but I have cooler bags because when we go to town, I’m going to use a Costco cooler, at least in the winter, to put in my fresh meat and stuff. In the summer, we’re bringing our Yeti. Like that’s a different thing. But…

Tonya Kubo (22:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (22:23)

What do you actually use and need to be there? It should not be long-term storage for things you don’t touch all year. It’s things that you actually use. And if your kids could put their backpacks there, if you could put your work backpack there, I think that’s a great use of space.

Tonya Kubo (22:30)

Yeah.

Okay, and so now we get to the part where we’ve got to talk about the nemesis of all of our cluttery peeps. We’ve got the coat closet all beautifully decluttered, organized. How do we keep it from getting junked up again?

Kathi Lipp (22:45)

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah, so when you bring new items in, remove something old. You know, the one in, one out. You know, when you think about coats, we probably don’t need 40, okay? Roger and I both need a nice coat. Think church or going out to dinner. An everyday winter coat, an everyday lighter coat, and a raincoat. If I get a new coat, I get rid of an old one.

Tonya Kubo (23:11)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:23)

Now, you may have more coat needs, that’s okay. But do you have 20 coat needs? And do they all need to be in that coat closet space? What if you picked the three or four coats that you use most of the time and use that? And then also, as you’re changing things over from winter to summer, just clear it out.

Tonya Kubo (23:24)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (23:52)

Do I need to get rid of more coats? Do I need to get rid of some of these scarves? The other thing is, do you need seven scarves? Do you need 12 beanies? Do you need all of those mittens and gloves? Think about what do you actually use and what do you actually need? That’s the maintenance you need to do. And can I tell you, once you get this set up, your maintenance is gonna be so minimal. It’s gonna take five minutes.

Tonya Kubo (24:18)

Well, I was gonna say like maximum would be about 20 minutes a week, right? Like five minutes a day. If you can just do a quick swipe through, especially during the times of year where your coat closet is in more heavy use.

Kathi Lipp (24:22)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Right, absolutely.

Tonya Kubo (24:33)

my goodness, Kathi, thank you so much. These have been great tips. I especially appreciate all the resources that we’re going to have available in the show notes, mainly because that’s how I access them after the episodes as well. Like I probably use our website more often than anybody else around here. Any final thoughts, encouragement, tips that you would give to our listeners?

Kathi Lipp (24:40)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

I love it.

How do you want to start your day? If your coat closet could be your launch pad to say, this is where my keys are. This is where, maybe you keep your lunch bag there after work or something like that. But how do I want to approach my day each day? Do I want to be able to find things in there easily? Do I want to be able to know where my coat is?

I think the reason that we don’t use our coat closets so much is because they’re filled with nonsense. At least that’s why I wasn’t using it. Instead of thinking, you know what, this is a tucked away space for things that I use every single day. Your space should be stuff that you use at least five out of seven days a week. So if you think about it that way, it’s really going to curate what belongs in that space and what doesn’t.

Tonya Kubo (25:28)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

beautiful tips. So we’re gonna curate what belongs in the space and what doesn’t. And we’re doing that by, just to summarize the steps, removing the unwanted coats, unwanted stuff that’s extra in that space. We’re gonna pull out the items that don’t belong, get matching hangers. You’ll thank us later, cause they’re beautiful. Hanging bins are ideal for those things that don’t hang. And then of course, command hooks, get that rechargeable light. I don’t know about you, but I’m running out to get one today.

Kathi Lipp (26:05)

Mm-hmm.

They’re so great.

Tonya Kubo (26:16)

and

rotate things seasonally. Not everything needs to live in the same space, same time all year long. Now, I believe we’re going to have a download available with all these tips in our show notes, right? You’re so excited. This was all Kathi’s idea, guys. I would never think of this, so just know that. Kathi thought of this because she knows you well. And we want to hear, so we want you to download that resource from our show notes, but then we want to hear from you over in the free Facebook group and you can find

Kathi Lipp (26:22)

Mm.

We are! Yes!

Tonya Kubo (26:44)

all the links, all the information in the show notes. Kathi, thank you for letting me interview you. This has been so much fun.

Kathi Lipp (26:51)

my goodness.

You know what? And I love doing this because it inspires me in these spaces and I need the inspiration just like everybody else.

Tonya Kubo (27:00)

Oh, I feel the same way. listeners, I just want to say thank you for hanging out with us for this 25 minutes or so. You have been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Tonya Kubo with Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

Jun 17, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Low Buy July, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

Jun 10, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#662 – How I Organized My Pots & Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 25, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas | 0 comments

#662 – How I Organized My Pots & Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

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In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into one of the most dreaded and clutter-prone areas of the home: the kitchen cupboards. Whether you’re struggling with chaos in your pots and pans cabinet or just need some fresh organization inspiration, this episode offers practical tips and clever solutions to transform your kitchen into a space that brings you joy.

From discussing the dreaded corner cabinets to lighting solutions that bring a smile every time you open the door, Kathi and Tonya walk you through realistic steps to declutter and organize. They share insights on dealing with duplicates, utilizing vertical storage, and even creatively using AI to find innovative products that simplify your life. Along the way, you’ll get a dose of laughter and encouragement to tackle your kitchen stress points one cupboard at a time.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:06)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutterfree Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And today we’re going to get as practical as you can get. We’re going to be as intentional and you know I like the word prescriptive but Tonya can we just call it what it is, it’s bossy right?

Tonya Kubo (00:31)
Hey, I love to be bossed around. And I think our listeners do too.

Kathi Lipp (00:33)
Right?

Yes. Well, you know, in our paid group, we have an opportunity, at least this year, where you and I got on calls with people for 15 minutes and really what they want. First of all, they want to just unburden on somebody that knows that they’re not going to be judged by. But the other thing is they want to be bossed around. yeah, and I love that for us. And so

Tonya Kubo (00:58)
yeah.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
Today we’re gonna get down into the nitty gritty. We’re talking about the dreaded kitchen cupboard. And let me just tell you the worst one of all is where the pots and pans live. Is that a sore spot for you or have you got that all figured out?

Tonya Kubo (01:19)
Well, I wouldn’t say I have it all figured out, but mine hang. So they don’t get like they do for some people, right? Where they’re like piling. So my issue is actually the lids because the lids don’t hang. So I have the lids like stacked on the shelf and then sometimes they fall on my head.

Kathi Lipp (01:23)
interesting.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I could

see where that would happen. Well, we’ve got approximately 20 minutes that we are and we’ve got a little commercial break, but otherwise all we’re going to be doing is talking about pots and pans because here’s the thing friends. It’s the little things right and we want you to take those little spaces that can be a little annoying can be a little frustrating and let’s let’s tackle them. Okay, we’re going to tackle them together Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (02:07)
Alrighty, sounds good. So, Kathi if you don’t mind, I’m gonna reverse our roles here a bit, because I am curious about, I guess what I wanna start off with is, because I’ve been to your house, but most of our listeners haven’t, I want you to describe what was the pots and pans cupboard like before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so, you know, as we’ve talked about many times before, you come to my house and you don’t see a ton of clutter. But I will always be a cluttery girl at heart. That’s my deep, that’s my, that’s my truth. That is my truth. And that pots and pan cupboard, you know, when we moved in, of course I organized it. I did everything I could, but it’s just, if, if nobody lived there, it would stay so much more organized. But sadly, you know, I’m a cook.

Tonya Kubo (02:38)
Mm-hmm.

That is your truth.

Kathi Lipp (03:01)
I like to cook and I’m very fortunate that Roger puts dishes away, but it was always a pain. It was because it’s low. It’s a corner cupboard. And so you kind of have to dig back in there. And if you really want some stuff that’s all the way in the back, holy cow. And so a lot of things got shoved and I am a collector at heart. So there were things like

Tonya Kubo (03:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
weird cake pans and different kinds of muffin tins and three of my favorite kind of saucepan, things like that. So it just felt like, okay, once I could get those pans out of there, I could get to cooking. But there was always that kind of burden in there.

Tonya Kubo (03:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and so your corner cabinet, because I’ve been to your house, I think one of the issues, and I think a lot of people have this issue too, is that the opening to the cabinet is actually much more narrow than the cabinet. It’s like the Harry Potter closet, right? It’s like you open it up and it’s like, hey, there’s a whole room in here. So I’m just curious, did you find that when you had people over, because you entertain a lot, did their way of putting…

Kathi Lipp (04:06)
Yes, yes. Right, absolutely. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:23)
things away kind of add to the challenge. It’s not that we’re upset that anybody would come over and put your dishes away because we know that that’s a gift. That’s a blessing. But I’m just curious if yes, you and Roger maybe had some difficulty, but maybe some guests possibly added to the difficulty.

Kathi Lipp (04:29)
Never. Yes. Yes.

Well,

I think some people don’t want to see things. They’re like, if it’s hidden, it’s not clutter. So they might put a pot or something into a deep stock pot. And I might not see that for four months. other problem is that it’s like a cave, right? And I didn’t want, I know that there are some fancy people out there who is like,

Tonya Kubo (04:43)
Mmm. Got it.

Keep right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:07)
I had somebody come rewire my cabinets. I don’t have rewire my cabinets kind of money. That’s just not something I’m choosing to spend money on at this time. So there were a lot of different, you know, it was overcrowded. You couldn’t reach certain pots. I would actually have to call Roger from upstairs to grab some of those things. You know, there were duplicate, it was just a mess.

Tonya Kubo (05:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I’m imagining part of it is also your arms aren’t long enough to get to the back, right? I mean, mine, I know mine aren’t long enough to get to the back of your cabinet.

Kathi Lipp (05:35)
Right, I…

I am the T-Rex of human beings. I have the shortest arms in the world. And you you mentioned lids. Lids are a real issue. And so, you know, we just had to deal with all that kind of stuff. I’m making it sound worse than it is. I’m compiling like three years of frustration into a, in three minutes. But I think there are other people who have felt this frustration.

Tonya Kubo (05:41)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Well, but I don’t really feel like you’re making a bigger deal out of it than it is because to your point, I think everybody has these frustrations regardless of what the physical space looks like. I think all of us have some cabinet and oftentimes it’s our pots and pads cabinet where our arms aren’t long enough to get to the back. All of us have an issue with nesting like smaller items inside of larger items but then the largest item being so deep that you can’t see what’s inside.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:33)
Like, so I do think I appreciate the fact that you spent three minutes on this because I think you’ve listed all the pain points that our listeners are most likely to experience with our pots and pans. So now it’s the big question, Kathi, because this is the question that plagues everybody in our community. It’s what was your first move?

Kathi Lipp (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

So I finally had to admit to myself those little cake tins that were shaped like flowers. The one that was shaped like Thomas the Tank Engine. Those specialty things, dude, I’m just not that special. I’m just not. And I might imagine someday in the future when I have grandkids that they would want that train pan.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:17)
But you know, we have to come to the realization what our grandkids want is rarely what our kids wanted. And by the way, I don’t have anybody who is planning on having children in my family. So what was I holding on to those things for? And then, you know, there was so much someday in there is that, you know, I’ve realized keeping something that you use once a decade.

Tonya Kubo (07:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
isn’t worth losing daily cupboard space.

Tonya Kubo (07:49)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
It’s just not. It’s, you know, it’s so many of it would be more worth it to me to go to Michael’s, buy the cake pan, use it and immediately donate it. That would be a better use of my time, space, money and energy than keeping a cake pan I use once every 10 years. So I had to go through that cabinet and say,

Tonya Kubo (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)
If I’m not using this, why? So one of the things I did immediately, like one of the cake pans, I have a popover pan and I probably haven’t used that in a decade. And I’m like, I’m not willing to get rid of this. So I had to be willing to use it. So I made popovers, they were terrible. I’m going to make them again. I’m going to do it until I get it right. But if you’re going to hang on to something you haven’t used before.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)
Hmm.

haha

Kathi Lipp (08:47)
Are you imagining a life that you want to someday have or can you just use it right now? Say, I’m gonna try it and I’m gonna use it. if you’re willing to use it right away, I say keep it. If you’re not willing to use it right away, it’s probably time to get rid of it.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Yeah, well, and what I like about that perspective is it falls completely in line with our principle about negotiating space. I mean, there’s only so much real estate in a home and there’s only so much real estate that you can afford to designate for your pots and pans, right? Because there’s a whole lot more that goes into a kitchen. So those specialty pans, like they sound like the easiest decision to make, the best starting.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Right. Yes, yes.

Exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
But after that, it feels to me like everything else would be equal priority. So where did you go from there?

Kathi Lipp (09:38)
Hmm

Duplicates okay, so Tonya I fancy myself a cook. I know I know I know

Tonya Kubo (09:42)
no. Don’t pick

on my four muffin tins, Kathi Lip. Do not pick on my four muffin tins.

Kathi Lipp (09:47)
Okay, okay, can I just say though if

if you like me Use your four muffin tins at the same time Then you get to keep those muffin tins like I often will do a big batch of muffins and I will use both tins at the same time to bake a bunch of things at the same time and I also have big muffin tins

Tonya Kubo (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:17)
I also have teeny tiny muffin tins. And by the way, I use all of those. So I have two regular muffin tins, one big and one teeny tiny, and I use all of them. So you know what? I kept all of them. I’m about as close to a, I don’t want to say a professional cook, because that doesn’t describe me. But I did write a cookbook and I had to use these things. But how many times did I use the same size

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:47)
I do have some fry pans that are slightly larger, some that are slightly smaller, and those were perfectly good. So I gave away some of my duplicate, you know, the pan that you’re like, okay, if the apocalypse happens and I need it, that pan is there. Well, the apocalypse doesn’t happen, but you know what, COVID did, and I never used that pan, so it was time to get rid of it. So, at,

Tonya Kubo (10:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Got it, okay.

Kathi Lipp (11:14)
Ask yourself if you really need three stockpots. If not, donate or sell or buy nothing group or something like that. And I’m pointing at me because I have two, here’s the thing, I wrote a book about soup. I kept too many stockpots. It’s time to, because I have slow cookers. I have other big pots. I don’t need, is it two or three stockpots? I don’t know, but you know what? Yeah, sometimes you have to do this in layers. There’s layers.

Tonya Kubo (11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And the muffin tins thing, that was a big argument I had with my best friend, Amber, if you’re listening, this is about you. Because I had four muffin tins and she was just like, you only need one. And I’m like, no, because I oftentimes will make two dozen muffins, two dozen cupcakes. And she was like, yes. So you bake them in one, you empty those out to cool and then you do the other. And I’m like, you obviously do not understand my workflow in the kitchen.

Kathi Lipp (11:50)
Hahaha!

Yes.

No,

Tonya Kubo (12:11)
I do not want to wait for the muffins to cool, to take them out, to then

Kathi Lipp (12:12)
no. Right, right.

Tonya Kubo (12:15)
refill them. That feels like dead time. So thank you for validating my four muffin tins. That’s really what this is about. This is validating me in a 20 year old argument. Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (12:18)
And Kim.

Yes. And

Tonya, also, what’s the storage harm in those muffin tins? Because they nest right into each other. So I’m giving you a cupcake pass.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)
right. That is true.

Yes, I get the cupcake pass. I’m so excited. Okay, so we’ve removed our specialty pans that we’re not using and we’re not willing to use. We have gotten rid of our duplicates. What’s next?

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

So I just think getting rid, when you get rid of those duplicates, I want you to think about who can I give these to? Sometimes our first thing is who can I sell these to? I don’t think, I think oftentimes if maybe we’re a little bit more on the side, this side of 40 years old than we are on that side of 40 years old. And to think through, you know,

Do I really need the money for this or could I help somebody like people helped me when I was first starting out? You know that extra muffin tin. So could you use that it organizes your space and then you act, you know, we can bless someone else by passing on items we don’t actually use because that may become their favorite muffin tin.

Tonya Kubo (13:42)
that totally makes sense. Okay, well, we’re gonna have to pay some bills, take a break. But when we come back, dear listener, do not leave us because now that we’ve talked about how we’ve minimized the pots and pans area, we’re gonna talk about organizing.

All right, so we are back and we are going to hear from Kathi. Kathi, you are going to talk to us about how you organized your pots and pans after you decluttered all the excess that you didn’t need.

Kathi Lipp (14:11)
Right. Okay, so one of the first things I did was I installed lighting. Now, like I said, this sounds like a rich person solution, right?

Tonya Kubo (14:21)
I

was gonna say I need more info on this Kathi. Yeah?

Kathi Lipp (14:24)
Okay, Tonya, this may be

my favorite discovery so far of 2020. This may encompass 2024 and 2025. So I just did an AI search. How do I get lighting into my cupboard without rewiring things? And there is, and I’ll link it in the show notes, okay? You install a magnet on top of your cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (14:43)
Okay.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (14:53)
All right, and this magnet is the other side of the magnet of a light bar. Okay, it’s a light bar. So you can pull this light bar out, but it just slaps up there with a magnet. And you can recharge this light bar on a USB charger. So the same thing that you use to charge your cell phone, you can use this to recharge that bar. And here’s the beautiful thing, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (15:03)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:23)
it is motion activated. So.

Tonya Kubo (15:26)
So

you don’t have to worry about leaving it on.

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Right, it’s not a flip on flip off. It is when I open the cupboard, it flips on and when I close the cupboard, it turns off. And we’ve had this for about three months now and have not had to recharge it yet.

Tonya Kubo (15:44)
that is so nice because we have tap lights in our deep cabinets, but the problem is as they get left on and then they overheat.

Kathi Lipp (15:47)
Yes, yeah, right.

we don’t want that.

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
No, you do not want overheating. No, that’s a bad idea. So this with the motion activate. my gosh, this is brilliant. How’d you find him, Kathi? AI. It was AI.

Kathi Lipp (15:56)
No.

I just, AI, I just said, here’s the

problem, here’s the problem. And it said, have you tried this? I’m like, why no, I haven’t tried that. So I will link those. You can get them on Amazon. You can get them at Lowe’s. You can get them anywhere. They’re one, they are life-changing. Can I tell you, nothing makes me smile more these days than opening that cabinet and the light coming on after six years of it being a cave.

Tonya Kubo (16:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, well, that would make me smile. I’m going to smile the next time I’m at your house and I get to use it. If you find me in your kitchen just opening and closing the cabinet, you’ll know what I’m doing now.

Kathi Lipp (16:33)
Yes.

Yes. Yes.

I would

not blame you at all. I would not blame you at all.

Tonya Kubo (16:45)
Okay, so that has to be like the highlight of this episode for me personally, but there is more to the pots and pans area in a kitchen than just that. What are you doing it with bakeware?

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
Yeah, yes. Yes.

Yeah, so let’s talk about the infamous muffin tins and like little cookie sheets and things like that. got, and guys, we’re gonna link all of this in the podcast notes so you can go and check out exactly what we’re talking. Cause isn’t a podcast the best place to display storage organization, right? know, my audio is our best forms, yes. But we will put it in the show notes. This is just a wire wrap.

Tonya Kubo (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Why yes, yes it is. Show notes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)
that

is, it’s a little bit wider than like what you would use to organize papers. But I just have it all standing up and it’s easy to grab. And you can see what you have. So it’s just a simple wire organizer. But the main thing is you have to declutter what you’re not using because if you’re still are trying to organize chaos, it’s never going to happen.

Tonya Kubo (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:50)
But if you’re organizing what you actually use, it’s gonna be beautiful.

Tonya Kubo (17:55)
Yeah, well, and I like that idea because, with cookie sheets or baking sheets, I guess we call them because we don’t just put cookies on them. Muffin tins and such. Stacking them flat just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Kathi Lipp (18:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

It doesn’t

work, it doesn’t work. And this simple thing just saves me so much time and rummaging around. I’m no longer banging things around. I hate being frustrated. I hate being frustrated in the kitchen and this has solved a lot of that frustration.

Tonya Kubo (18:14)
Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, okay, so before we run out of time, you mentioned earlier about having a lids solution. Talk to me about pots, lids, all that good stuff.

Kathi Lipp (18:29)
Yeah.

Well, okay,

so this, after the light situation, this may be my favorite thing. This is, it’s hard to describe. It’s like a tower that is, has separate shelves that you can store your pots, your pans, and your lids on. Now, a lid solution for you, Tonya, because you don’t store your pots and pans like that, could just be that wire rack we talked about.

Tonya Kubo (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that’s

what I was thinking about. I was like, some people are gonna get that for baking sheets. I might be getting that for my lids.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yes.

Yes,

absolutely, absolutely. But this one, the one that I got, it just has different shelves jutting out from it. And I have got it all set up for my fry pans and things like that. And I just bought one for my pots, because I wanted to buy one to see, does this actually work for me? And Roger and I, who have very different organizational styles,

Tonya Kubo (19:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:33)
Like everything we’ve talked about here so far has worked for both of us. yeah, so that’s, talk about miracles. But it keeps your pots upright. You’re not scratching your pots and pans by stacking them inside. And let’s be honest, pots don’t stack nicely, you know, with the handles and stuff. So it makes it so much easier. The one thing I’m going to tell you though is before you order, measure.

Tonya Kubo (19:38)
nice.

They don’t. No.

Kathi Lipp (20:03)
You know, well, here’s the thing. When I went on Amazon to order this, it said it had a satisfaction ranking of like 4.7, but it said this is an often returned item. I’m like, well, if people are so satisfied, why are they returning it? Because it didn’t fit in their cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (20:05)
This sounds like the voice of experience.

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (20:30)
That

was my own sleuthing. So finally I’m getting smart. I’ve got one thing I bought for everybody at Christmas in 2023 were these mini measuring tapes. They look like dull measuring tapes, but they go out, I think either two or three feet and I keep one in my kitchen. And before I order something, I make sure that I can measure that space. And it makes such a difference.

Tonya Kubo (20:38)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

cool. Can we put that in the show notes too, Kathi? Okay. Measuring tape. I put Barbie measuring tape on my notes because I’ll know what that means. Okay. So let me recap really quickly because we are out of time, but you’re so you minimize by getting rid of the specialty items. You got rid of the duplicates and then your three tips in terms of organizing what was left is you got a light.

Kathi Lipp (21:02)
Yes, I will make a note to do that.

Yes, exactly, perfect. Yes, exactly.

guess.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)
that is rechargeable does not involve rewiring anything nor the investment that it would take for electrical systems like that. You got a bakeware rack so that you can vertically stack your cookie sheets, your muffin tins. Then you got a pot organizer, which I think the pot organizer is my favorite idea too, even though it doesn’t apply to my situation because I have had to get rid of really nice pots because they scratched.

Kathi Lipp (21:29)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

right, exactly.

Tonya Kubo (21:55)
They were too scratched up and I love

the idea of storing them in a way that keeps them protected like that. Is there anything else you would add for us today?

Kathi Lipp (22:01)
Yeah.

say that if you think you need everything that you have but there are some things that are iffy could you put those things into a storage container for like three months and see if you actually use them and if you’re not using them then that’s your sign to say it’s okay to give them away and also another thing to think about is

Tonya Kubo (22:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:35)
there are some libraries that will let you check out cake pans. So if cake pans are something that you are interested in, I love libraries these days. It’s not just about books anymore. You could go check out a Thomas the Tankin, or let’s be clear, let’s bring it for 2025, a bluey cake pan, right? That’s right. And so you could check that out.

Tonya Kubo (22:48)
I love libraries too.

Bluey cake pan baby.

Kathi Lipp (23:05)
and not have to store it in your house, which I think those are two tips about keeping some of that chaos out of your house. That’ll make it much easier. And by the way, Tonya, this is gonna be so much easier to clean. And you know, it’s.

Tonya Kubo (23:17)
What I was gonna

ask, like now that it is all organized, I think one of the issues I see from listeners who write in is keeping it that way. And so, you you brought up some good points is you’re not gonna restock with specialty cake pans if you can check your local library first. It’s easier to clean. Any recommendations when it comes to cleaning?

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yes.

I love a good handi-vac, I’m not gonna lie. That’s my favorite thing to do. And then if you are, I just, let’s keep it simple, just a rag. And I love the Method grapefruit. Have you ever smelled that? You may have smelled it at my house, yeah. Or somebody, yeah, I don’t like the taste of grapefruit, but the smell makes me so happy. And.

Tonya Kubo (23:42)
Okay. I love a good handiwork too.

Mmm, I do. I like a good grapefruit smell.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:05)
I don’t have to do it very often because we’re not putting dirty things in there, but you know, every once in a while, but just that handy vac going around there, guys, I want you to smile when you go to your pots and pans. And I didn’t know that was a space that could make me smile, but it really does.

Tonya Kubo (24:23)
my gosh, well hey, I think every part of your house, like you deserve for every part of your house to make you smile. And so what I would love to do is I would love to invite our listeners to join us in our Facebook group. That’s Kathi with an I dot link slash CFA. And I want to see their before and after transformations of their pots and pans cabinets. And of course, if there’s any questions that they might have. Anything else you want to add before we sign off, Kathi?

Kathi Lipp (24:29)
Hmm. Yes.

Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, we have this great download just step by steps and steps of how to you know Obviously my thought is listen to this podcast episode on repeat as you’re doing this because you’ll feel encouraged But we also have a download that you can go and get the step-by-steps to clean out that cupboard Yeah, all of that, but look at our show notes to go check out those Amazon links I think those will really encourage you and it’s going to provide solutions

Tonya Kubo (25:02)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:19)
for like, can’t I keep this organized? We got you, we got you.

Tonya Kubo (25:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. So check the show notes for the Amazon links, check the show notes for a link to the Facebook group and check the show notes for the download. That I think is especially important.

Kathi Lipp (25:35)
Perfect.

See you.

Tonya Kubo (25:43)
I don’t have the script for the close.

Kathi Lipp (25:45)
I’m

sorry, my bad. Well, friends, we, Tonya and I hope that we’ve given you some ideas and some encouragements to do that corner of your house that, you know, has maybe been driving you crazy, but there are solutions and we wanna take all of those hurdles out of the way when it comes to getting dinner on the table and this is a great place to start. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now.

Go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

Jun 24, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

Jun 17, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Low Buy July, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

Jun 10, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#656 When Opposites Attract: Managing Different Clutter Levels in Marriage

by Roger Lipp | Feb 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Marriage, Organizing, Podcast, Relationships | 0 comments

#656 When Opposites Attract: Managing Different Clutter Levels in Marriage

Listen Now

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Arlene Pellicane to discuss the delicate balance of managing different organizational styles within marriage. If you’re struggling with a spouse who has different standards of tidiness, this episode offers practical wisdom and hope.

Arlene shares four key marriage decisions that can transform your relationship, with special focus on how managing “stuff” impacts marital harmony. You’ll discover how to have productive conversations about organization without creating winners and losers in your marriage.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Making Marriage Easier

Arlene Pellicane

Clutter Free Resources:

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Meet Our Guest

Arlene Pellican

Arlene Pellicane is a speaker, author, and host of the Happy Home podcast, dedicated to helping families thrive in today’s digital age. Her books have been translated into more than ten languages, and she has appeared on numerous media outlets including the Today Show, Fox & Friends, and The 700 Club. As the spokesperson for National Marriage Week and a former features reporter, Arlene brings her expertise to audiences nationwide through keynotes and workshops for businesses, schools, churches, and ministries. She holds degrees from Biola University and Regent University, and lives in San Diego with her husband James of more than 25 years, their three children, and their Goldendoodle, Winston.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:00)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And guys, we have a very special episode. It sounds like we’re doing an after-school special, but it is a very special episode of Clutter-Free Academy. You see, because, you know, it’s the stuff.

but oftentimes when we are struggling with this stuff, it’s not about the stuff. It’s about what the stuff represents. It’s about the relationships around the stuff. And today we’re gonna get a little help with that. This is my dear long, long friend. I don’t wanna say old friend because she’s younger than I am and has kids younger than I do, but we have been friends for a really long time. Her name is Arlene Pelican and guys,

Arlene Pellicane (00:39)
Long, I like that.

Kathi Lipp (00:49)
She is a phenomenal writer and speaker. And I wanna talk to her today. We’re talking about clutter, but we’re talking about it in the midst of relationship. And we’re focusing on her new book, Making Marriage Easier, How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life. First of all, Arlene, welcome back to the program you’ve been on before. I’m so grateful to have you back. Thank you so much for coming down.

Arlene Pellicane (01:17)
I’m so happy to be with you, my long friend. I like that. I like this long friend. So much better than old friend.

Kathi Lipp (01:19)
Long friend Yes, we don’t want to say old or aged

yeah, so I just have to ask are you a parks and rec fan by any chance?

Arlene Pellicane (01:32)
Okay, well, this is embarrassing. I am not, which I’m sure now people, don’t, I’m sorry, I don’t watch it. It’s not that I don’t like it. I just don’t watch it. So then people will be like, well now we cannot listen to anything that she has to say.

Kathi Lipp (01:43)
No,

it’s okay. I just thought did she get the title? Her subtitle from parks and rec

Arlene Pellicane (01:50)
See? So now

we know for a fact that it came from my own brain.

Kathi Lipp (01:54)
Yes, okay, it did come from your own

brain, but I am really going to encourage you. Roger and I have a poster that we held up at a wedding and it says, I love you and I like you. And that’s the two main characters. It’s one of my top three favorite shows ever. Feel free to skip over the first, like, I don’t know, season. Okay, that’s terrible. Yeah, yeah, start in season two, it’s fine.

Arlene Pellicane (02:10)
Yes. Okay, I will need to do that. Yes.

Yeah, like tell me, which season should I start in?

But I love you and I like you.

Kathi Lipp (02:24)
But

I love you and I like you and it just makes me happy. So I just had to get that out of the way. here’s the thing, I would do anything to watch it again for the first time. So here’s my gift to you. You get to watch it for the first time. yeah, well, okay. So this is really interesting because you know me, you know Roger and I both love and really like him. But I would say, I would venture to say,

Arlene Pellicane (02:29)
I love that.

Yes, this is fantastic.

Kathi Lipp (02:54)
that for many people I know that that is not the case. that what you would say? You’ve been in this, okay, so tell me more about that. Is it that, do you think that’s changed over the years or do you think that it’s always been like that and sometimes we just had to put up with it? Like, what’s your take on that? And guys, we are gonna talk about clutter, but I think this is foundational to what we’re talking about.

Arlene Pellicane (03:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we hear it more often now than before because I think the emphasis now in marriage is more on like, do you please me? Do you, you know, what do you do for me? And then it’s like, well, you, I don’t really like you very much because you didn’t do very much for me. Where I think in years past, it wasn’t so much like, do you please me? It was more like, hey, we’re a team and we’re in it to win it let’s do this thing. You know, so it wasn’t so much this inspection of, do I like you still?

Kathi Lipp (03:32)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (03:51)
You know, so I do think that is a more recent thing because we are just more self-centered as a society. We’re not as much like service oriented. Just think of, you know, volunteer organizations, for instance, that people used to go to things to whatever Lions Club, Kiwanis Club, whatever, to volunteer. You see a decline in that. And I think you can see that in marriages. Like we’re not so much there to serve one another, to be a team together. more like, well, as long as you’re good for me. Great.

Kathi Lipp (03:51)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (04:21)
but when you stop being good for me, not so much. And I think that’s what kind of has introduced us to this language of like, well, I don’t like you very much. So having said that, it is this, the reason I use that phrasing is yes, when I married James, same like you and Roger, like of course I liked him. Like obviously you like him more than anyone else in the whole worldwide world. That’s why you got married in the first place. So you’re like crazy and like with this person and then you’re married, whether it’s a year or 50 years.

Kathi Lipp (04:38)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (04:49)
And there are times where they do things that makes you think like, I do not like you very much. And I think that a lot of people that people can relate to, and I think that’s kind of normal. So one of the things that I have done is when I think to myself, well, you are being nitpicky, you know, to me, and I don’t like you very much, then I’ll think to myself, well, you probably don’t like me very much either in this moment, which is true, right? Like you’re both not liking each other at that exact moment. But to realize, you know what, we’re human.

Kathi Lipp (05:12)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (05:19)
And in any friendship, this happens too, where there’s just a moment where you’re like, hey, I didn’t really like that very much. But then you get over that and you just continue. And it’s the same thing in marriage that, hey, I’m not going to like you every minute of the day. I am going to love you. That’s my commitment. But what can I do in my marriage? How can I take out the emotional baggage, the clutter, the wrong things, the wrong soundtracks in my mind so that I can actually like you more than I can like you more often?

Kathi Lipp (05:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (05:48)
And

much of that has to do with rhythms that you’re actually connecting that it’s like, I do like you. I have time and I’m realizing on this date that I actually do like you. You are actually still funny. So it’s trying to give you more opportunities to rediscover that you really do like each other.

Kathi Lipp (06:00)
Ehh

Well, and I think that there’s a difference between I didn’t like that and I do like you. You know, it’s like I didn’t like how that conversation went. I didn’t like and so it’s very easy to turn that that phrasing into I don’t like when you do that instead of I don’t like how that went or I, you know, so to take mutual ownership oftentimes. But I do think, you know,

Arlene Pellicane (06:09)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (06:35)
I grew up in a church where it was all about women pleasing men because the framework was men have it so hard. You have no idea how hard men have it being the leaders. And so it’s all up to us to make sure they’re happy. And I think some of it’s healthy to say, no, thank you. No, we’re not doing that anymore because what everybody is doing is hard.

Arlene Pellicane (06:49)
Yep.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (07:03)
and is beyond themselves. And we need for both sides to go beyond themselves, to not be selfish and to say, I’m going to love you. And what that requires is beyond what’s comfortable for me sometimes, but we’re gonna do it. yeah, yes.

Arlene Pellicane (07:19)
Isn’t it interesting how it like swings? Like it would swing

like, okay, I must serve you because you have such a hard life and it becomes like too heavy one way. But then now we swung it the other way where we’re like, we’re not going to support a man because a man, you know, he’s been, I’m going to fend for myself as a woman. And we swing the other way, like serve me because do you have no idea how hard it is to be working and to be a mom and to make this dinner and all these things. And it is kind of that in the middle, right? That’s serving one another where you realize, Hey, everyone.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (07:48)
has like stuff to do and everyone needs that support.

Kathi Lipp (07:50)
Right.

And we need to be able to recognize that in each other. In your book, you talk about four key marriage decisions. Can you give me an overview of what they are? And then we’re going to dive deep. I want to talk about stuff because I, know, Jesus talks more about money and possessions than anything else in the New Testament. So he knew this was going to be a point of contention.

Arlene Pellicane (07:56)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Stuff.

Kathi Lipp (08:20)
So when we, we’ll get into the stuff of it, but let’s talk about these four key marriage decisions and why they’re so important.

Arlene Pellicane (08:20)
Yes.

Yeah.

The first decision, and these were, you James and I have been married for 25 years and we’ve been happily married and it was like, why is this working? Kind of this thought, like, what is it? We’re not superheroes. We’re human. We have fights. Like, why is this working? Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)
Yeah.

Okay, I want to say something to that because

I think it’s the exception. We were just at dinner with somebody on Saturday night and they said, we can’t believe your marriage. And I’m like, and here’s the thing, I think that they have a good marriage. I think that they have a happy marriage, but it really is the exception, isn’t it?

Arlene Pellicane (09:02)
You know, you can feel that way because you think like, no one’s talking like this. But my hope is, you know, with making marriage easier and with different things that more and more people will be able to say this. And hopefully there are more people who feel this way who we’re just not meeting. they’re out there. We just didn’t have dinner with them. That’s all.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Yeah, I hope so. Yes, let’s hope so.

So you’ve had 25 years of a happy marriage.

Arlene Pellicane (09:23)
Yeah. Yeah. So these

decisions, so it’s kind of like, like dissect this, like what have we done? So decision number one is play by the rules. And this is the idea of fighting fair, of not following your feelings, but following God’s commands. And you know, you think in Psalm one, it’s saying blessed is the man who delights in the law of the Lord. It’s kind of weird. It’s not like that they loved God. They love the law of the Lord. I love the rules of God. I love

Kathi Lipp (09:30)
Okay.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (09:53)
the way God orders things. And that’s what, when you play by the rules and you say, I love how God has made marriage and I want to honor these rules, I’m going to play by them. So what does this look like? You know, it means I’m not going to have adultery. I’m not going to steal something from you. I’m not going to lie to you. You know, you’re playing by the rules. You know, one of our rules is we call the power hour and that’s simply the rule of having a meal every day together.

Kathi Lipp (10:01)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:18)
It’s not legalistic.

It’s not like, you’re not here, but I’m hungry, so I can’t eat. It’s not like that, but it’s just the rhythm. Like every day, unless someone’s traveling or someone has a weird appointment, we’re gonna eat together. So there are certain rules and rhythms that you’ll say, you know, something like, I’m not gonna eat, I’m not gonna be with someone of the opposite sex alone over coffee or dinner. You know, things like that, that these are, play by these rules. So that’s the first decision. The second one is, I will give thanks every day.

Kathi Lipp (10:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:47)
So it’s making a home based on gratitude that that’s the stuff that’s important, right? To be thankful versus look what I don’t have. Look what I don’t have. I don’t have this marriage. I don’t have the good couch. Like this is ridiculous. So don’t that, that will tear down your home. So give thanks every day. The third thing decision is to serve your spouse. You know, people are, I don’t want to serve my spouse. They’re going to treat me like a doormat. That’s so outdated. But this is the idea of instead of a

Kathi Lipp (10:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (11:15)
approaching your marriage like, well, what have you done for me lately? Because boy, that sounds like a lot of fun. Be like, do I have to like tap and do a tap dance to make you happy? know, what have you done for me lately? Instead of that, we say, how can I make your life easier? You know, how can, what can I do for you today? So that attitude of service, all of a sudden, now you’re empowered to serve your spouse and do something good versus just inspecting and being disappointed at what you didn’t get, right? And then the fourth,

Kathi Lipp (11:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (11:44)
And final decision is to have, be serious about fun. Take fun seriously. So you had fun and that’s why you got married because even going to the grocery store or to the bank with your beloved when you were dating was fun because you were together, right? It was just like, yay, we’re together. We’re getting an oil change and this is so much fun because we’re in the car together, you know? So what happens when you’re married, you’re like, that’s extra. Like we can’t have fun. We don’t have money for that. We don’t have time for that.

Kathi Lipp (11:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (12:14)
So forget it, we don’t have fun. And then what happens? It’s like, we don’t have anything in common anymore because we never have fun. So it’s very important to say, my goodness, I should save money for that little excursion. I should put aside time to have date night because I actually need to laugh with you. And that’s something you and Roger do so well and so often, right? Is you make each other laugh and that’s what makes marriage easier. So take your fun seriously.

Kathi Lipp (12:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I look forward, today we have to go to, our RV is stored in a nether city and we have to go and do some repairs. And I’m looking forward to it because I get to hang out with him and have conversations. And it’s the stupid stuff, but you’re right. know, anything can be fun when it’s approached in the right way. I do think it is, you know, it’s both people agreeing to meet in that space.

Arlene Pellicane (12:52)
See?

I love that. Yeah.

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:09)
And think that that’s where, you know, one person’s working on the marriage and the other one is not. And that’s where we can get into trouble and feel like we’re struggling. But it’s been interesting. One of these things I see now that is I really press against, I don’t like it, is, well, you should just do that without me having to say thank you. And I…

Arlene Pellicane (13:20)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:37)
Here’s the thing. Yes, there are some things that roger does and I probably don’t notice and I probably don’t say thank you But if he does something and I do notice there’s going to be a thank you even if it seemed Yeah, like I know some people say I shouldn’t have to say thank you for unloading the dishwasher because that’s just part of Home maintenance and yes, it is just part of home maintenance and also i’m grateful

Arlene Pellicane (13:49)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (14:06)
that he has taken that on as his mental load, I don’t ever have to worry about dishes. And I am so grateful for that. And there are things he never has to worry about, and he is grateful for that. And so I think showing up in those ways is really important, even though it goes against modern wisdom and modern convention.

Arlene Pellicane (14:09)
Yes.

Yeah.

I’m

with you on this. So think of a server in a restaurant. They are just doing what they’re supposed to be doing. They are literally paid to bring you a menu, bring you your food, be pleasant to you and refill your water. They are literally doing your duty, their duty. They owe it to you. That’s their job. So am I going to just sit there and not be grateful? Am I just going to sit there and be like, yeah, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to be doing. I’m going to say thank you. Like you brought me my meal. Thank you. And in fact, this

Kathi Lipp (14:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I… Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (14:56)
what you have said shines light on something that happened to me at a restaurant. I was eating with three of my girlfriends and we were very like nice to the server, like just normal. And she literally came up to us afterwards, almost like in tears. And she was like, she was like, you are the nicest people. You wouldn’t believe the people I serve here. They are so mean and demanding and like it’s so hard.

Kathi Lipp (15:12)
I knew exactly what you were going to say. Yep.

Arlene Pellicane (15:25)
you are really, really nice. And I couldn’t believe it. I was like, we were just acting like cordially, like it was just normal. So I think we’ve come to that place that, it’s a bad place. It’s an ugly place where we think you owe that to me. So I’m not going to give thanks for something you owe to me. And that’s like a very ugly place to be. So I think if we can do it, we see it with the server in the restaurant. So my goodness in your home, even though you’re supposed to.

Kathi Lipp (15:42)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (15:52)
drive the kids to school, you’re supposed to bring home a paycheck, you’re supposed to do the dishwasher, please do say thank you, because that really does lend to that key decision, give thanks.

Kathi Lipp (16:03)
And especially if you’re going to a restaurant Sunday after church, because waiters hate Sunday after church. And it’s like, what a reputation. We need to be the most generous, the most kind, the most, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break. And then when we come back, we’re gonna talk about one of the most often marriage testing things, and that is stuff.

Arlene Pellicane (16:10)
Yeah.

Yes, the nicest, biggest tip. Yes, most patient, very kind, use their name.

Kathi Lipp (16:31)
So we’ll take a quick break and come right back with Arlene Pelleking. Okay, guys, we are back. in your book, you talk about stuff. And you talk about some of the materialistic traps in marriage. You were telling a story about your first apartment. I love, did you really have trash bag curtains?

Arlene Pellicane (16:59)
Yes,

we really did. We’re super classy. So our first apartment was on the fourth floor in Dallas, Texas. It was no elevator. we literally with the groceries when we packed in everything, four flights of stairs in hot Dallas, we got there, you know, I mean, it’s hot there. You get it. So anyway, we’re very poor, you know, we’re new newlyweds. The place is completely empty. It has like a card table and like a bed, you know, you get it. And all this stuff is going to be garage sale things. So we had no curtains.

Kathi Lipp (17:03)
Hahaha!

No.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (17:29)
And we’re like, boy, it gets like really sunny in here. So we’re like, okay, we’re going to make curtains with these black hefty bags. So we took the black hefty bags, know, we slit them and we hung them and put little ties around them. And we’re like, wow, this really works really good to block the sun and to do the things and to give that extra shade. we’re like, this is awesome. So it was so funny because here we are with these black hefty bags and we didn’t care.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (17:56)
because it’s like we were so happy together, it didn’t matter. And then in fact, our first fight was over him inviting a neighbor to dinner. And I had told him specifically, he asked me, hey, I just met our new neighbor, can I invite him to dinner? And I was like, no, because I only had two chicken breasts, I didn’t know how to cook, I was using my George Foreman grill for the first time, like this was.

Kathi Lipp (17:57)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (18:22)
I didn’t know how to cook. I’m like, this is going to be magic. I’m going put the chicken in. It’s going to come out. It’s going be amazing. But I was so super nervous about it. So I was like, and then we have the trash bags on the wall and we eat at this card table. I’m like, no, you cannot have someone last minute for dinner. And guess who came to dinner? Walter. Yes, of course. Knocked. Came to dinner and I couldn’t believe it. So I’m just like, okay, Walter, sit here. I was super nice to Walter, of course. He ate my chicken with the black trash bags. I mean, it was great.

Kathi Lipp (18:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Of course.

Of course.

Arlene Pellicane (18:52)
And when Walter left, I was very mad at James and he was like, he bear hugged me and he’s like, I’m sorry. And like, are you sorry because I’m mad at you? Are you sorry for what you did? You know? And thankfully we have never had an unwelcome guest. We have had guests, but they’ve had more notice. So, and I’m getting a little bit looser and we do have real curtains, but you know what? It’s okay when people actually like Walter.

Kathi Lipp (19:03)
Right.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (19:16)
as he was eating my chicken. Like he doesn’t care really, he probably finds it amusing that we have that. So sometimes we think we’ve got to have this stuff to impress our friends. And I get it, there is a certain level of stuff that you do need. I think it was good that we went and we don’t have the curtains, right? We don’t have that anymore. So there is a certain level that you do need. But once you get to that level, you can kind of stop because sometimes we think, if I get that new thing,

Kathi Lipp (19:21)
Right. Right.

Mm-hmm. I’m glad you upgraded your curtains. Yes

Arlene Pellicane (19:45)
it’ll make me really happy. But then you get the new thing and you enjoy it for a month. But then it’s like, I am not that much happier. So I am not a very good like designer person. Like I love beautiful things and I like nice things, but I don’t know how to put things together, right? Like I don’t know how to make it all look like ta-da, like this. So basically our house has kind of looked the same for the last like, let’s say 20 years. It’s like all the same furniture, all the same things. Anything that’s new has come off of

Kathi Lipp (19:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:15)
Craigslist or given away by someone who is moving, et cetera. And it’s fine and it looks fine. It’s great. But it’s like, I don’t have this, it has simplified life to not have to always upgrade the sofa, upgrade the table, upgrade the thing. Kind of like, hey, let’s buy this once, let’s buy quality and then let’s never buy it again.

Kathi Lipp (20:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:35)
And that

really has helped us to kind of simplify. We don’t always have to be changing these things, buying new things. I don’t have to have a new look because now it’s gray, it’s not brown. It’s like, it’ll be brown again someday. So just kind of like have that mindset like, if I make all these changes, it really doesn’t change the quality of the relationships in the house.

Kathi Lipp (20:46)
Right?

Yeah,

you know there there’s a great reddit thread. It’s called buy it for life And you know what vacuum cleaner are you gonna buy that you just buy for life? What’s the couch that you’re gonna buy and some of them are really expensive? But some of them are not and a lot of them you can get secondhand and you’re right, you know, you may enjoy I I will admit it. I’m addicted to throw pillows. It’s a problem

Arlene Pellicane (21:04)
Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (21:25)
And I will say they bring me a lot of joy. And I’ve had to also say, I don’t think any new pillows will bring me any more joy. Because every day when I sit down in our living room, there are a few pillows, I’m like, they just make me happy. But yes, you know, there are not ones out there. I am not searching for happier pillows. you know, it’s like, don’t replace joy for joy. If you already have the joy,

Arlene Pellicane (21:42)
Yes!

Yes!

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:55)
You don’t need

to be going and looking for other joy, you know, because yeah, it is often, I’m just trying to impress somebody or I want somebody to feel this way about me when they come through the door. Okay, go ahead.

Arlene Pellicane (22:06)
I have

to, I’m thinking of something that’s so funny. So I do want to have, I do want to say, like, I don’t get a lot of joy from decorating. So that makes it easy for me not to do it. So if you’re listening and this is something you super love, you know, then it may be something you really do do for the love of it. So I don’t want to discount that. With the throw pillows, it wouldn’t it be funny if there’s certain things in your house you love so much.

Kathi Lipp (22:15)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (22:31)
but you like put them away for the day. Like if you put your throw pillows in your closet for a day and then you took them out the next day, you’d be like, my throw pillow is back. So we did this with our daughter Lucy when she was two years old. She had a favorite little doggie, Violet, the purple doggie, the leapfrog one that like talks and sings and stuff. And she loved Violet.

Kathi Lipp (22:39)
you’re back!

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (22:53)
So what we did one year is we took Violet and we put a biking helmet on Violet and a little jacket on Violet and we made it biker Violet and we wrapped it for Christmas and she opened it as a two year old on Christmas day and saw biker Violet and you could not even believe the delight that that child had. She was like, Violet and Violet had the biking helmet on and this little jacket. It was like biker.

Kathi Lipp (23:02)
You

Arlene Pellicane (23:21)
And it was the cutest thing. And I thought to myself, I am such a smart mom. I took the same present and I dressed it up for this two year old and this two year old think it’s the best thing ever. And you know what? Maybe as adults, can like, how can you dress up what you already have? How can you like put it away and then take it out so that it’s the same stuff, but you get that little thrill of like, I’ve missed you Violet or you look different Violet. So it was so funny.

Kathi Lipp (23:37)
Yeah.

Okay, I love

the violet story so much. And we kind of do this, like we’ve been given little gifts before, and it’s like stuff I really like, but I don’t necessarily want stuff out all year round. And it’s very seasonal here. You know, in San Jose, I didn’t know, and where you live too. You don’t know the difference between March 30th and October 30th. Yeah, exactly. So we’ll…

Arlene Pellicane (24:10)
Right.

November 1st. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (24:19)
We do have like a summer box has like some flag stuff, because that’s I’m born on flag day. So I get flag stuff. And I’ll put things like the little donkey my friend, Susie gave me in that box. And when I open it, I’m like, I love the donkey. But then I put it away. It’s so true. So how do you feel that having less stuff in your life can contribute to

Arlene Pellicane (24:35)
All right. Right.

Kathi Lipp (24:49)
an easier time in your marriage because I believe it can but I don’t know that people see the through line for that.

Arlene Pellicane (24:50)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes. When you have a lot of stuff, you have to manage your stuff. You have to take care of your stuff. So whether it’s taking care like I have a friend who has a boat, he’s on the boat all the time. So you kind of like for his wife, it’s kind of like the boat is the other woman. So that’s a very extreme example, like how the stuff takes a lot of time. So you have to just take that to heart. So if you have

Kathi Lipp (25:00)
Exactly.

You

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (25:24)
so much stuff and you have to organize it. Like right now, my laundry room, which has shelves, has so much stuff. So in my mind, when I go in there, it’s like, I’m so stressed out. It’s like half pantry, half like kid stuff, half activity stuff, games, it’s everything. So I know I need to take time, a good swath of time, and go through all of that. Now, if that is multiplied all throughout my house and I keep piling more on,

Kathi Lipp (25:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (25:51)
then I have more and more time that I have to spend to organize it versus if I actually did think from here on out, and this is a work in progress, buy it once, keep it, buy quality, you and maybe when I look at a new thing to be like, do I really need that new clutter that’s gonna be like another thing for me to have to find a place for? And maybe then I say, no, I’m not gonna buy that, because I know my laundry room is packed and I don’t need that. So what does that do?

Well, it frees me up my headspace, frees my headspace from worrying about it. It frees me up two hours on a Saturday where I would have to like manage my things. Now I can go out and have ice cream with my husband or my kids. So I do think it is a time issue of the time that you spend buying it, figuring out where do I put it, and then figuring out where do I store it, then figuring out do I want it or not want it, all those things, you know, they take time. So the less…

Kathi Lipp (26:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (26:47)
you have to do that, then the more time you have to spend, the less time you have to spend organizing your garage and the more time you can be riding bikes with your kids or doing whatever, you know. So it is a good concept. mean, please don’t hear me and think I’m like this minimalist guru. We have stuff coming out of our ears because I do, I like to keep things, you know, my middle daughter, she’s very minimalist. She can do it. She can look at something, she’ll get a trophy.

Kathi Lipp (26:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (27:14)
tennis trophy on Tuesday, it’s in the trash on Friday. You know what I mean? Like she’ll be like, I got it. That was great. I don’t really need this. Where I’ll be like, well, I’m going to keep that for a few years, you know? So there, she’s very like, I don’t need that. Like she’s very minimalist. Like I enjoyed it and I’m going to get rid of it. And I’m more of the like, it’s a treasure. Like I will keep it. So, you know, we’re all across this, this spectrum of how we view our stuff.

Kathi Lipp (27:17)
Wow.

Wow.

Arlene Pellicane (27:43)
But I think when it comes acquiring right now more, that this is a good time where we can say, you know what, less is probably better. You know, I’ve read something from Mickalyn Smith, the nester, and she said that the most luxurious room in my home is my bedroom because it’s completely clutter free. It’s just like the bed and these like very minimalistic decor and my clothes. And she just talks about luxury is needing less.

Kathi Lipp (27:51)
Yeah.

You have.

Arlene Pellicane (28:12)
And I really like that thought like, it’s more luxurious not to have your

stuff packed everywhere with stuff. It’s more luxurious to be like, I just have a few things I really like.

Kathi Lipp (28:23)
Well, and also I just did an episode with a doctor who specializes in sleep and the less that’s in your best bedroom, the less it pings you and yeah, you sleep better, you know, and with our acquisition, people who have listened to this podcast know that we talk about STEM, space, time, energy and money and the less stuff, the less space it takes up. So the less pinged you are time you’re like you were saying you’re not

Arlene Pellicane (28:31)
Interesting. My goodness.

Hmm. Yep. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (28:53)
dealing with that energy. You know, we’re always so exhausted, but we’re managing so much stuff. And then money because money is one of the biggest stress points in most marriages. And if we can hold on to more of that not spending it, you know, there there are certain places, you know, Costco is a trap for me. Target can be a trap for me. I have never met something at Trader Joe’s that I didn’t like, you know.

Arlene Pellicane (28:57)
Yep.

Right, me too.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (29:22)
These

are traps for me, but the money gives me options. And that’s what I want in my marriage. What if somebody is struggling over the state of their house with their spouse, whether their husband is on the messier side or maybe, you know, for the people who are listening, maybe it’s us, maybe we’re the ones who are struggling on the messier side. What are some talking points?

that you could have for that discussion as we close up here. What is something, how can you open up that conversation, whether it’s you or the other person?

Arlene Pellicane (30:01)
Yeah. You know, I would say start not with the idea like, am going to convince this person to be less messy. Right? Start instead of just being curious of like, how might we fix this? Like, how might this be easier? And approach your spouse that way. Like, hey, you know what? You know, I’m always nagging you to pick up your stuff and you’re always leaving your stuff around. I don’t want to nag you.

I don’t want to do that. So let’s brainstorm together. How can we make this easier for both of us? And just be kind of curious about like, maybe the messy person will say, you know, I really like the house messy because I grew up in a messy house and it just makes me feel at home. And when the house is so neat and picked up, I feel like it’s sterile, like I feel like it’s hospital. And you know what? As a spouse, if you heard that,

Kathi Lipp (30:29)
Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Arlene Pellicane (30:53)
it would give you a new perspective of, you actually feel really comfortable right now. This feels good to you. But now you’re kind of curious, you know, about what my husband would say you’re crossing the street. Like you’re crossing the street to find out what does the other person say about this. And then you could tell them, well, okay, that helps me to understand that that’s where, but for me, it has the opposite effect. I come home and I’m all freaked out. So maybe you do zones.

Kathi Lipp (30:58)
This feels good to you, yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:21)
that you’re like, hey, we’re gonna keep the kitchen area really clean and we’re gonna keep the bedroom really clean. And then the other part, the little family room, if you wanna junk that up, that can be like our thing. But you have to promise when we have people over, you have to help me clean it up. But like, I love this conversation of like, how can we make this easier for both of us so that we both could enjoy this just a little more. So don’t try to go for the total win.

Kathi Lipp (31:27)
Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:48)
Like we’re gonna completely clean the house, but just a little more, how could we make this a little better for both of us?

Kathi Lipp (31:54)
Yeah, because when there are winners and losers in a marriage, everybody loses. It’s just that it never works out. You never are going to win against your spouse because you’re never supposed to be set against your spouse. And so I love, I love, love, love this idea. Arlene, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Arlene Pellicane (31:59)
Yes. Yeah.

Yep.

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been so, so much fun. And I want to encourage you, instead of spending your money on stuff, spend it, save it for experiences. Because the experiences, you enjoy it three times. And I talk about how you can enjoy experiences three times in the book.

Kathi Lipp (32:26)
Yeah.

I think I know what you’re talking about. But yes. OK. The book is called Making Marriage Easier. How to love and like your spouse for life. We’ll have notes. We’ll have an ordering link in the show notes so you can go there and order it at Amazon or any of your favorite retailer, wherever books are sold. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Cathy Lip. Now.

Go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

Jun 24, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

Jun 17, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Low Buy July, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

Jun 10, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#655 Finding Grace in Your Imperfect Space: A Conversation with Hilary Bernstein

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Feb 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#655 Finding Grace in Your Imperfect Space: A Conversation with Hilary Bernstein

Listen Now

Hey there, friend!

Are you caught in the tension between wanting a perfect home and feeling overwhelmed by the impossibility of achieving it? In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Hilary Bernstein, author of “The Tension of Tidy,” to explore the connection between perfectionism and our struggle with clutter.

Learn why perfectionists often have the hardest time maintaining an organized home and discover practical strategies for breaking free from the paralysis of perfectionism. Hilary shares insights about finding God’s grace in our imperfect spaces and offers hope for those caught between Pinterest-perfect expectations and real-life limitations.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

– Why perfectionism often leads to cluttered spaces

– How to celebrate small wins in home management

– Practical first steps for overwhelmed perfectionists

– Biblical perspective on imperfect spaces

– Permission to invite people into your imperfect home

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Hilary Bernstein’s book “The Tension of Tidy“
Hilary Bernstein’s website

Clutter Free Resources:

Let’s stay connected

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Meet Our Guest

Hilary Bernstein

Hilary Bernstein is the women’s ministry director at The Chapel in Green, Ohio, where she brings a wealth of experience from her roles as a blogger, newspaper editor, and columnist. A prolific author, Bernstein, has recently published Prayerful Living and twelve other impactful devotional books. More information can be found at hilarybernstein.com.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the Clutter-Free queen. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, we don’t often do top 10 lists, but we’re doing a top 10 list today. I, so this is a two-parter. The first part is 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)
Hey Kathi

Kathi Lipp (00:40)
And next week, we’re going to talk about 10 things I do now that I live clutter free. And so I want to talk to you about how your life has changed, the things that you have stopped. And I just realized I told you we were going to do exactly the opposite podcast, but you know what? We’re we’re just fine. We’re just rolling with it. You know, we’re going to live in the moment here. And so I’m going to get us kicked off because I I think

Tonya Kubo (00:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:10)
People would not recognize my life From before clutter free now clutter free has not always I did not say hey I’m gonna start something called clutter free and now I’m gonna change my life like I changed my life and Then I thought I’m not the only one like this I wrote a book called clutter free and then I met my friend Tonya Kubo who seemed like the most put-together human being on the planet, but told me no

Tonya Kubo (01:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:39)
her life was a mess too, and we started to figure all this stuff out together. And what a gift that was because as much as the book helped people, I know that our Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life and this podcast have helped just exponentially more people. I really, people don’t believe that I was cluttery at one point. And I’m like, no, I’m still cluttery at some points, but.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

still cluttering. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)
I’m not afraid

to invite you into my house. So I wanted to talk about what are some key things that look different now than they did when I was clutter free. number one, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. And this has been a huge shift for me because I would always think as I’ve…

Tonya Kubo (02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:32)
pretty much always been a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of person and who actually works nine to five. Let’s be clear, it’s eight to six. But I’ve pretty much been that person my whole life and I was just so busy during the week that I’m like, I’m just gonna save all this up for the weekends. And I don’t live like that anymore. Like as I am leaving a room, I’m like, are there things I can grab to throw away, to put away, to declutter?

Tonya Kubo (02:39)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:00)
Is that similar for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:03)
Yeah, I mean, I still think, you know, because my kids are younger, right? Like our house is always in some state of shambles, but you know, little things that I used to on Fridays clean off my desk, for instance. And now it’s just at the end of the day, right? It just is so much easier to take like a handful of stuff at the end of each day than to have to make multiple trips every Friday.

Kathi Lipp (03:06)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It makes such a difference, right? Because I don’t know, there’s just something about like, I’ve saved this up for an entire week. You know, instead of just saying, okay, a little bit of time, a little bit of time, my brain has shifted into small amounts of decluttering instead of huge mountains of decluttering. Okay, so that’s number one. Tonya, we’re going back and forth. Tonya, what’s number two?

Tonya Kubo (03:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (03:54)
something that you don’t do now that you live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (03:57)
Okay, so this might seem silly, but I genuinely used to think unloading the dishwasher took 30 minutes and now I realize it takes about three and a half. So I don’t put off unloading the dishwasher till the weekend. Like seriously, I made it into such a big job in my head and I don’t need more.

Kathi Lipp (04:11)
Right?

Yeah, yes,

I feel like doing the dishes could take a half hour if you’ve got a lot of dishes piled up if you have things that need to be soaked like, you know, deep, deep scrub. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:24)
Right, but I didn’t say doing the dishes, Kathi. I just

said unload the dishwasher.

Kathi Lipp (04:30)
just thinking maybe that’s why your brain was playing tricks on you and here’s what I know is when you when you unload the dishes here’s the magical thing it’s easier to load the dishes I know that seems like it should be obvious but our cluttery people will get that

Tonya Kubo (04:42)
Right.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Yeah, okay. Number three, I don’t stand next to the gas pump while it’s filling up. I, okay, so I think a lot of our cluttering friends will get this. I went, those small moments, like just like you were talking about with the microwave, I unload the dishwasher in the two and a half minutes that my, or I at least get it started in the two and a half minutes that my oatmeal is cooking.

Tonya Kubo (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:18)
And

so now I am married to somebody who does quiet contemplation while his coffee is warming up. And I’m like, you know what, we just live different lives. while I’m pumping my gas, I clean out the car. I just grab a few things. I throw them into the garbage. I feel like that’s free garbage. Garbage is such a big deal up here.

Tonya Kubo (05:24)
Hahaha

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

it is free garbage. I am right there with you.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)
It makes me so happy. I can’t even stand it. Yeah, I’m never somebody who would bring garbage from my house to throw away. I’ve heard of people doing that. I know. But if I’ve got a McDonald’s cup, that that’s going in the garbage while I’m pumping. It is I’m doing all the things and even like our truck takes a long time to fill up. I have been known to we have a like a hand vac in the truck.

Tonya Kubo (05:53)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)
and I’ve been known to like vacuum things out while I’m doing, yeah, it makes me so happy I can’t even stand it. Okay, but I’m doing, what the core concept behind that is it just takes a moment to make a small difference. And like you just said with the unloading dishwasher and even with the, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. If I can do a little bit each day, man, the weekends can be for.

Tonya Kubo (06:17)
Nice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:42)
fun or bigger projects or things like that. Okay, number four, Tonya, what’s something that you don’t do now that you’re living clutter free?

Tonya Kubo (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t go shopping when I’m tired, hungry, or frustrated.

Kathi Lipp (06:56)
That’s my favorite time to go shopping. Okay, tell me more. Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
It’s everybody’s favorite time to go shopping.

Right. But I mean, something that I learned early on in my clutter free journey is that when I’m tired, I’m hungry or I’m frustrated, my tolerance, like my my impulse control is lower and my desire to soothe is higher. And so I feel like everything I see at the store is going to make me feel better. And it is not.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)
Yeah.

Mmm, good.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:26)
to make me feel better. I am still going to leave the store tired, hungry, and frustrated so I may as well just solve those problems before I go.

Kathi Lipp (07:33)
Okay, can I tell you how I’m even worse at this and it’s something I need to correct in my own life. So I go to the store, which is a chore, right? That is an errand. Right. And I feel like because I have done that, even when I was living in San Jose and things were like five minutes, like, look at me checking things off of my list. I deserve a little treat, a little treaty treat. Can we just say that shopping and Target

Tonya Kubo (07:42)
Yeah, it’s a jaunt for you. It’s a jaunt.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (08:02)
It’s so much better when you have Starbucks. And so like this is the thinking I have to unpack all the time in my cluttery journey. it just, makes a difference. It makes a difference when you say, and I just, but I try not to go, I pack snacks now in our car so that we are not so tempted.

Tonya Kubo (08:05)
I’m sure it is, I’m sure it is.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)
Like it’s okay every once in a while to go to Starbucks, but you don’t get Starbucks every time you leave the house. Yes, okay. And so tired, hungry, frustrated will lead you to, and here’s the other part of that that I think is you’re so wise because I’ll just throw things in my cart and I’ll say I’ll return them later if I’m frustrated. Like, you know, don’t go shopping for jeans when you’re tired, frustrated or hungry. That’s just the meanest thing you could do to yourself.

Tonya Kubo (08:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

No.

Kathi Lipp (09:00)
but then I’ll buy all the jeans and then I’m like, now I have to take them back. And then like, I already have a return right now of a shirt and it’s, we’re recording this around Christmas time. And I’m like, the last thing I want to do on earth is go into a store and return a shirt. Like I can’t think of anything I want to do less. Okay. Number five, I don’t leave a room without scanning the room. So.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi Lipp (09:27)
What that means is I don’t, I don’t just walk into another room. I will walk into another room, but I will grab the dish that’s on my desk. I will grab the shirt that needs to be returned. Can you tell I’m going through stuff? I will grab the jacket that needs to be hung downstairs. And here’s why I think that this matters. Even if I’m just going into Roger’s office, which is still on the top of the floor.

I’ll move those things to the top of the stairs so that I used to think if I’m gonna do something, I need to do it all the way. And no, I just need to push it forward. I need to push that chore forward. And that makes a huge difference. It’s like, even if I can’t unload the entire dishwasher while my oatmeal is cooking, I’m pushing it forward enough and I’m yelling up to Roger,

Tonya Kubo (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
The dishes are clean, I’m just not done yet. And so he knows not to put dirty dishes in there. But if you can push it forward, then the next time you’re reheating your coffee, you can push it forward another minute and you might get it done. And so scanning a room, seeing what can I push into place? Because here’s what I know, if I leave it all until I have time, then I’m gonna spend half a day going up and down the stairs. And that sounds like my worst nightmare, I hate that stuff.

Tonya Kubo (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (10:56)
Yeah, okay. So we have gone through our top five. We’re gonna take a quick break, pay some bills. We’re gonna come back and Tonya is gonna talk about how she doesn’t apologize. I can’t wait to hear about how you do this. Teach me, Obi-Wan. We’ll be right back. Okay, guys, we are back with 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter free. So Tonya, you say you don’t apologize. For what?

Tonya Kubo (11:23)
I

apologize for the condition of my house.

Kathi Lipp (11:26)
So tell me more. Tell me how I can get brave and be really like, just come on in.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)
well, just stop doing it. I mean, that’s how I did it, right? It was like a cold turkey. Like, I think there was a bit of a transition of where I would say, I probably should apologize for the state of my house, but I won’t. But I just don’t. And, you know, some people come in and say stuff and some people don’t, and I don’t really care. Because what I realize is we all have a different standard. You know, I used to apologize. And I realized that a lot of people

Kathi Lipp (11:37)
wow.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:03)
Like, first of all, I would apologize after spending hours doing a crisis clean because I knew other people would come in and like, and feel like my house was in complete disarray. And I was like, why am I acting like I didn’t just kill myself to make this house look nicer? And then I got to where, you know what? What do I care? mean, people come in, sometimes people are like, wow, you must be really busy. I am. That’s not untrue. I am really busy.

Kathi Lipp (12:13)
Mmm.

Right, right.

It’s a great friend test, right? Can we hang? Can we hang? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I’m just

like, there’s nothing they could say that’s probably not true to some degree. And I’ve had like repair guys come in, it’s funny, is because the repair guys will come in and our front room doesn’t have flooring. We tore up the flooring and then building costs went up so we have not replaced the flooring. And they’ll go to put the booties on them like, yeah, that’s cute. You don’t have to do that here. And they’ll look around and they’re like, okay.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)
All right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:01)
Every now and then they’ll say, are you sure? Like, yeah, no, we’re good here.

Kathi Lipp (13:06)
Yeah.

Well, it’s so true. Our lives are all in transition, right? And when you have kids, the amount of day-to-day clutter goes up exponentially. Or maybe you’re in the midst of a big project. You know, I’ll never forget during the launch of Clutter Free, book, the state my house was in. It was like, we can’t take any pictures. And just recently,

Tonya Kubo (13:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:35)
Tenneil who manages our social media said, Kathi, can we get a video of you pushing in a chair? And right now we’re in Christmas crazies. I’m like, it would take me 45 minutes to get to a place to push in a chair. Right, it’s, yeah, because there’s all the fudge making supplies right there, yeah. So are you really, are you using marshmallow fluff in it?

Tonya Kubo (13:45)
No. To push in the chair. You’re like, “‘Cause I can’t get to the chair to push it in.”

Yes, I’m making fudge this weekend too. Anyway, I am.

I am using marshmallow fluff in it. I took a whole class on how to make fudge using marshmallow fluff. It was fun.

Kathi Lipp (14:05)
I saw that I saw that well,

I saw the fudge class. I didn’t know that there was the marshmallow fluff. Yeah, I’m very excited I’m just using a recipe off the internet But as you know, we live next to not next to you know half I don’t know 20 minutes away from a gourmet chocolate shop, which is the only Yeah, they’re a whiner They ship they’re so good but also let’s just say their fudge has gourmet prices and I’m like

Tonya Kubo (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Little John’s, they ship. Little John’s, you should order from Little John’s.

Yes

Kathi Lipp (14:35)
How much would it cost for me to do this? And Roger’s like, we can buy their other stuff. We never have to buy fudge again. And I was like, I’m an indentured fudge servant now. Got it. Okay. Okay. You know what? It’s good. Hey, speaking of fudge, number seven, I don’t buy all the gear for hobbies unless I have a pattern of doing the hobby. Because here’s what I’ve discovered, Tonya. You know what my hobby is? Buying the stuff for hobbies.

Tonya Kubo (14:44)
Yes, I am too.

Mmm.

I

was gonna say preparing to have a hobby.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)
So here’s what I said, know, like one of the recipes that I am preparing right now called for a candy thermometer. And I’m like, ugh.

Tonya Kubo (15:17)
I need that for the fudge recipe with the marshmallow fluff. You need a candy thermometer.

Kathi Lipp (15:20)
Okay, so here’s what I told

myself if I prepare three recipes right now that don’t require the the thermometer if I if I prepare these three Christmas gift II things then I am allowed to buy a Candy thermometer and I got one by the way Michaels has 30 % off coupons for a while now. So go check that out I got the I think it’s the Wilson one but

Tonya Kubo (15:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ew.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)
I cannot tell you how many hobbies I’ve invested in and had to keep that stuff because I invest I told myself I’ve invested so heavily I need to keep all this stuff. It just it doesn’t make sense and it’s not the right thing. So I no longer I need to have a pattern of Can I start this hobby with stuff I have or can I start this hobby for less than ten dollars? And if I find that I really enjoy it

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Then I will keep going but I am NOT going to go I’ll just say my history is buying at a professional level and performing at an amateur level like it’s not good

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
I

know that feeling though. If I have the same paints and brushes that Bob Ross has, I will make the same pictures that Bob Ross made.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)
Right.

Right, right.

And you know, our friend Cheri Gregory, friend of the podcast, Cheri Gregory calls it buying to become and I have done that for years and years. Okay, Tonya, number eight.

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Yeah.

Okay, I kind of stole from you because you said that you scan a room before you leave. Before I go to bed, I make a round through the house specifically for dirty dishes. And here’s my, if I made a round through my house for decluttering, I would never make it to bed. But I can make a pass through my teeny tiny house just for dirty dishes in about 25 minutes. And it makes my life so much easier that

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

so smart.

No, of course not.

Hmm

Tonya Kubo (17:24)
Like, know, because all run into bulls, where are all the bulls? The bulls are in the kids’ room underneath the bed. Why are they underneath the bed? I actually can’t answer that question, but that is where I find them.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Okay, Tonya, we are missing a bowl right now. There are just two of us. There are just two of us. This giant glass bowl, we cannot find. Is it under Lily’s bed? That’s my question now.

Tonya Kubo (17:36)
Maybe it’s under my bed!

It’s probably under Lily’s bed, and this is the worst of it, right? Is the way that Abby’s bed works, it sits lower to the ground. So Abby shoves stuff underneath Lily’s bed too. It’s not even all Lily’s fault.

Kathi Lipp (17:52)
Ugh.

Poor Lily. I’m sorry Lily. I did not mean to throw you under the bus bus or the bed Okay, so you do so what 25 minutes that seems like a long time so break that down for me Really okay

Tonya Kubo (18:13)
It’s a lot of dishes in my kid’s room and a lot of

dishes by Mr. Kubo’s desk. So it’s two trips. Two to three trips from the girl’s room, two trips from Brian’s desk and then

Kathi Lipp (18:20)
Got it. So you’re having to make multiple trips. Got it. Okay. And then

And and you’re

loading you’re soaking all that. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay Okay, that makes total sense. And I think doing doing a round of dishes I really feel like when everything else in your life falls apart the two things that you need to stay on top of are dishes and laundry because Mm-hmm. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (18:49)
Yes and I will say just really quickly that 25 minutes

does include a good five minute temper tantrum of my gosh what is growing in this thing.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)
I love it. Yeah, the the the Dishes and laundry if you stay on top of those like I don’t care how crunchy your kitchen floor gets I don’t care, you know at the I would say the third thing but this doesn’t have to be done as Much is staying on top of bills. Those are the important things that if you fall behind on them It’s going to be super painful to recover from them

Tonya Kubo (19:01)
That’s in there too.

No.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:25)
But if you can stay on top of those three things, it takes almost the same amount of energy to mop the floor when it’s been a week or five weeks. Like, I don’t want you to have to go five weeks, but if you need to in a crisis, you can. And yeah, and also stay on top of your garbage and recycling. number nine. This is my last thing of things I don’t do now that I live clutter free.

Tonya Kubo (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:55)
Okay, I try not to I’m still working through this but I’m much better than I used to be I don’t compare my stuff to my friends stuff so Or stuff on social media. There is always a new thing That would make my life two percent easier or two percent better Not not my entire life if something made my entire life two percent better you bet I’m going to invest in that but like

Tonya Kubo (20:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:25)
Let’s say, know, my, my robot vacuum, there are now robot vacuums that you can control remotely. Like I could be at my mom’s house and now I could get that doesn’t make my life better enough to upgrade my robot. Like my robots fine. We get along. We, she does what she needs to do. I’m sorry. It’s normally a he. I don’t know why I said she, cause I like for all my domestic labor to be he’s.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)
Because I just think that’s fair But I Just because somebody else has something that has made their life Infamates Lee better. It doesn’t mean that I need to upgrade it. I I try when I see you wearing a cute sweater I’m not going to say you know what? need that cute sweater. I’m gonna I’m one of things I’m trying to do is go into my own closet

Tonya Kubo (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:22)
and see

my own cute sweaters and the things that make me happy. So I’m trying really hard to reframe what my friends have. And also that can be a form of jealousy. I can just say, you know what? I’m really happy that Tonya has that sweater. I think she looks great in it. She’s having fun with it. And it makes me happy to see her in it. And it doesn’t have to be, I don’t have to own it for it to bring me happiness. So trying to stay out of that comparison trap.

Tonya Kubo (21:33)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)
And I’m sure when you go into people’s houses that have floors, that can be hard.

Tonya Kubo (21:57)
I do have floor envy right now, I’m not gonna lie. If you’ve got luxury vinyl plank, I’m eyeballing your floors, let me tell ya.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)
I you do.

And I do have that upstairs and I wrestled over that decision for about two years And I’m so glad we pulled the trigger It’s so painful to get flooring done just because of all the moving and shifting and all that kind of stuff Okay, Tonya round out our list. Give us number ten. All right

Tonya Kubo (22:09)
Yeah, no.

It is.

My cluttery peeps will get this. I no longer gain comfort or security from having full shelves, full drawers, etc.

Kathi Lipp (22:33)
yeah, space scares us, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)
Space is scary because space is scarcity and lack and my gosh what

if I don’t have enough. But if things are full even if they’re full of stuff that you haven’t worn in 22 years you believe you have enough clothes if for some reason they stopped making all clothing.

Kathi Lipp (22:48)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Tonya, this is so interesting. A number of people on TikTok and other apps are doing a no buy 2025, right? And the conventional wisdom is declutter your closet so you can see what you have. And then, so you know what you have, because it is, it’s easier to see what you have when you have less stuff in your closet.

Tonya Kubo (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
But I heard one woman, I thought this was so interesting. And I’m just gonna throw this out there for your reaction. She goes, I am not decluttering before my 2025. Because when I declutter, I feel like there is empty space. And I feel this urge to fill that space with shopping, with thrifting, with all these other things. So what she is doing is she is.

Tonya Kubo (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:50)
putting some of her clothes into another closet, including clothes she likes, so that she will, she remember, I’ve got more stuff. I don’t know, how does that hit you? I thought it was really interesting. Really.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I have a friend who does that actually. she has,

yeah, so she boxes up all of her extra stuff, even if it’s in the current season. And she has it all in like the rafters of her garage. But whenever she’s like, I wanna go shopping, she just goes and she takes a box down and she trades out pieces.

Kathi Lipp (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I think it’s really interesting. And so I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I’m going to try the other closet boxing because yeah, when I pull out all my winter stuff, I’m so happy. I’m like, I never need to go shopping again. And then after about two weeks, I’m like, you know, people are really into these green grandpa sweaters and like, okay, Kathi, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Tonya Kubo (24:50)
Yeah,

see, and I’m the person, I want all of my clothing to be able to fit in this much of my closet. Like, I don’t wanna ever change anything out. I don’t wanna work that hard. I’m just so, like, I don’t wanna say lazy, but really it’s just like, that is just something that takes such a high level of perceived energy for me that I’m like, I’m good.

Kathi Lipp (24:56)
Yes, you.

Yeah.

Okay, see, even within our Cluttery community, we all have our own little quirks. And that’s why it’s okay for you to forge your own path, but think about the wisdom that will get you to the next space in your Clutter-free journey. I hope one of these has inspired you today. Tonya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (25:18)
We do.

Thanks for having me.

Kathi Lipp (25:37)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#654 Declutter Your Life: 100 Spaces, 15 Minutes Each

by Roger Lipp | Jan 28, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#654 Declutter Your Life: 100 Spaces, 15 Minutes Each

Listen Now

Hey there, friend!

In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo help listeners kick off 2025 with a practical plan for a clutter-free home. Kathi shares her personal goal of decluttering 100 spaces in her house this year and how she’s breaking it down into manageable, 15-minute tasks.

Tonya adds her insights on avoiding overwhelm and tailoring the process to fit your unique spaces and needs. Whether you prefer a printable checklist or an editable spreadsheet, this episode provides actionable tools and encouragement to get started. Tune in to learn why small steps lead to big results and how to find hidden peace in your home.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

100 Spaces Checklist PDF

Editable Spreadsheet Version

Wallpaper Perforator
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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the Clutter-Free queen. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, we don’t often do top 10 lists, but we’re doing a top 10 list today. I, so this is a two-parter. The first part is 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)
Hey Kathi

Kathi Lipp (00:40)
And next week, we’re going to talk about 10 things I do now that I live clutter free. And so I want to talk to you about how your life has changed, the things that you have stopped. And I just realized I told you we were going to do exactly the opposite podcast, but you know what? We’re we’re just fine. We’re just rolling with it. You know, we’re going to live in the moment here. And so I’m going to get us kicked off because I I think

Tonya Kubo (00:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:10)
People would not recognize my life From before clutter free now clutter free has not always I did not say hey I’m gonna start something called clutter free and now I’m gonna change my life like I changed my life and Then I thought I’m not the only one like this I wrote a book called clutter free and then I met my friend Tonya Kubo who seemed like the most put-together human being on the planet, but told me no

Tonya Kubo (01:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:39)
her life was a mess too, and we started to figure all this stuff out together. And what a gift that was because as much as the book helped people, I know that our Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life and this podcast have helped just exponentially more people. I really, people don’t believe that I was cluttery at one point. And I’m like, no, I’m still cluttery at some points, but.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

still cluttering. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)
I’m not afraid

to invite you into my house. So I wanted to talk about what are some key things that look different now than they did when I was clutter free. number one, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. And this has been a huge shift for me because I would always think as I’ve…

Tonya Kubo (02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:32)
pretty much always been a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of person and who actually works nine to five. Let’s be clear, it’s eight to six. But I’ve pretty much been that person my whole life and I was just so busy during the week that I’m like, I’m just gonna save all this up for the weekends. And I don’t live like that anymore. Like as I am leaving a room, I’m like, are there things I can grab to throw away, to put away, to declutter?

Tonya Kubo (02:39)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:00)
Is that similar for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:03)
Yeah, I mean, I still think, you know, because my kids are younger, right? Like our house is always in some state of shambles, but you know, little things that I used to on Fridays clean off my desk, for instance. And now it’s just at the end of the day, right? It just is so much easier to take like a handful of stuff at the end of each day than to have to make multiple trips every Friday.

Kathi Lipp (03:06)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It makes such a difference, right? Because I don’t know, there’s just something about like, I’ve saved this up for an entire week. You know, instead of just saying, okay, a little bit of time, a little bit of time, my brain has shifted into small amounts of decluttering instead of huge mountains of decluttering. Okay, so that’s number one. Tonya, we’re going back and forth. Tonya, what’s number two?

Tonya Kubo (03:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (03:54)
something that you don’t do now that you live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (03:57)
Okay, so this might seem silly, but I genuinely used to think unloading the dishwasher took 30 minutes and now I realize it takes about three and a half. So I don’t put off unloading the dishwasher till the weekend. Like seriously, I made it into such a big job in my head and I don’t need more.

Kathi Lipp (04:11)
Right?

Yeah, yes,

I feel like doing the dishes could take a half hour if you’ve got a lot of dishes piled up if you have things that need to be soaked like, you know, deep, deep scrub. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:24)
Right, but I didn’t say doing the dishes, Kathi. I just

said unload the dishwasher.

Kathi Lipp (04:30)
just thinking maybe that’s why your brain was playing tricks on you and here’s what I know is when you when you unload the dishes here’s the magical thing it’s easier to load the dishes I know that seems like it should be obvious but our cluttery people will get that

Tonya Kubo (04:42)
Right.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Yeah, okay. Number three, I don’t stand next to the gas pump while it’s filling up. I, okay, so I think a lot of our cluttering friends will get this. I went, those small moments, like just like you were talking about with the microwave, I unload the dishwasher in the two and a half minutes that my, or I at least get it started in the two and a half minutes that my oatmeal is cooking.

Tonya Kubo (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:18)
And

so now I am married to somebody who does quiet contemplation while his coffee is warming up. And I’m like, you know what, we just live different lives. while I’m pumping my gas, I clean out the car. I just grab a few things. I throw them into the garbage. I feel like that’s free garbage. Garbage is such a big deal up here.

Tonya Kubo (05:24)
Hahaha

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

it is free garbage. I am right there with you.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)
It makes me so happy. I can’t even stand it. Yeah, I’m never somebody who would bring garbage from my house to throw away. I’ve heard of people doing that. I know. But if I’ve got a McDonald’s cup, that that’s going in the garbage while I’m pumping. It is I’m doing all the things and even like our truck takes a long time to fill up. I have been known to we have a like a hand vac in the truck.

Tonya Kubo (05:53)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)
and I’ve been known to like vacuum things out while I’m doing, yeah, it makes me so happy I can’t even stand it. Okay, but I’m doing, what the core concept behind that is it just takes a moment to make a small difference. And like you just said with the unloading dishwasher and even with the, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. If I can do a little bit each day, man, the weekends can be for.

Tonya Kubo (06:17)
Nice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:42)
fun or bigger projects or things like that. Okay, number four, Tonya, what’s something that you don’t do now that you’re living clutter free?

Tonya Kubo (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t go shopping when I’m tired, hungry, or frustrated.

Kathi Lipp (06:56)
That’s my favorite time to go shopping. Okay, tell me more. Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
It’s everybody’s favorite time to go shopping.

Right. But I mean, something that I learned early on in my clutter free journey is that when I’m tired, I’m hungry or I’m frustrated, my tolerance, like my my impulse control is lower and my desire to soothe is higher. And so I feel like everything I see at the store is going to make me feel better. And it is not.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)
Yeah.

Mmm, good.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:26)
to make me feel better. I am still going to leave the store tired, hungry, and frustrated so I may as well just solve those problems before I go.

Kathi Lipp (07:33)
Okay, can I tell you how I’m even worse at this and it’s something I need to correct in my own life. So I go to the store, which is a chore, right? That is an errand. Right. And I feel like because I have done that, even when I was living in San Jose and things were like five minutes, like, look at me checking things off of my list. I deserve a little treat, a little treaty treat. Can we just say that shopping and Target

Tonya Kubo (07:42)
Yeah, it’s a jaunt for you. It’s a jaunt.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (08:02)
It’s so much better when you have Starbucks. And so like this is the thinking I have to unpack all the time in my cluttery journey. it just, makes a difference. It makes a difference when you say, and I just, but I try not to go, I pack snacks now in our car so that we are not so tempted.

Tonya Kubo (08:05)
I’m sure it is, I’m sure it is.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)
Like it’s okay every once in a while to go to Starbucks, but you don’t get Starbucks every time you leave the house. Yes, okay. And so tired, hungry, frustrated will lead you to, and here’s the other part of that that I think is you’re so wise because I’ll just throw things in my cart and I’ll say I’ll return them later if I’m frustrated. Like, you know, don’t go shopping for jeans when you’re tired, frustrated or hungry. That’s just the meanest thing you could do to yourself.

Tonya Kubo (08:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

No.

Kathi Lipp (09:00)
but then I’ll buy all the jeans and then I’m like, now I have to take them back. And then like, I already have a return right now of a shirt and it’s, we’re recording this around Christmas time. And I’m like, the last thing I want to do on earth is go into a store and return a shirt. Like I can’t think of anything I want to do less. Okay. Number five, I don’t leave a room without scanning the room. So.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi Lipp (09:27)
What that means is I don’t, I don’t just walk into another room. I will walk into another room, but I will grab the dish that’s on my desk. I will grab the shirt that needs to be returned. Can you tell I’m going through stuff? I will grab the jacket that needs to be hung downstairs. And here’s why I think that this matters. Even if I’m just going into Roger’s office, which is still on the top of the floor.

I’ll move those things to the top of the stairs so that I used to think if I’m gonna do something, I need to do it all the way. And no, I just need to push it forward. I need to push that chore forward. And that makes a huge difference. It’s like, even if I can’t unload the entire dishwasher while my oatmeal is cooking, I’m pushing it forward enough and I’m yelling up to Roger,

Tonya Kubo (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
The dishes are clean, I’m just not done yet. And so he knows not to put dirty dishes in there. But if you can push it forward, then the next time you’re reheating your coffee, you can push it forward another minute and you might get it done. And so scanning a room, seeing what can I push into place? Because here’s what I know, if I leave it all until I have time, then I’m gonna spend half a day going up and down the stairs. And that sounds like my worst nightmare, I hate that stuff.

Tonya Kubo (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (10:56)
Yeah, okay. So we have gone through our top five. We’re gonna take a quick break, pay some bills. We’re gonna come back and Tonya is gonna talk about how she doesn’t apologize. I can’t wait to hear about how you do this. Teach me, Obi-Wan. We’ll be right back. Okay, guys, we are back with 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter free. So Tonya, you say you don’t apologize. For what?

Tonya Kubo (11:23)
I

apologize for the condition of my house.

Kathi Lipp (11:26)
So tell me more. Tell me how I can get brave and be really like, just come on in.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)
well, just stop doing it. I mean, that’s how I did it, right? It was like a cold turkey. Like, I think there was a bit of a transition of where I would say, I probably should apologize for the state of my house, but I won’t. But I just don’t. And, you know, some people come in and say stuff and some people don’t, and I don’t really care. Because what I realize is we all have a different standard. You know, I used to apologize. And I realized that a lot of people

Kathi Lipp (11:37)
wow.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:03)
Like, first of all, I would apologize after spending hours doing a crisis clean because I knew other people would come in and like, and feel like my house was in complete disarray. And I was like, why am I acting like I didn’t just kill myself to make this house look nicer? And then I got to where, you know what? What do I care? mean, people come in, sometimes people are like, wow, you must be really busy. I am. That’s not untrue. I am really busy.

Kathi Lipp (12:13)
Mmm.

Right, right.

It’s a great friend test, right? Can we hang? Can we hang? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I’m just

like, there’s nothing they could say that’s probably not true to some degree. And I’ve had like repair guys come in, it’s funny, is because the repair guys will come in and our front room doesn’t have flooring. We tore up the flooring and then building costs went up so we have not replaced the flooring. And they’ll go to put the booties on them like, yeah, that’s cute. You don’t have to do that here. And they’ll look around and they’re like, okay.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)
All right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:01)
Every now and then they’ll say, are you sure? Like, yeah, no, we’re good here.

Kathi Lipp (13:06)
Yeah.

Well, it’s so true. Our lives are all in transition, right? And when you have kids, the amount of day-to-day clutter goes up exponentially. Or maybe you’re in the midst of a big project. You know, I’ll never forget during the launch of Clutter Free, book, the state my house was in. It was like, we can’t take any pictures. And just recently,

Tonya Kubo (13:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:35)
Tenneil who manages our social media said, Kathi, can we get a video of you pushing in a chair? And right now we’re in Christmas crazies. I’m like, it would take me 45 minutes to get to a place to push in a chair. Right, it’s, yeah, because there’s all the fudge making supplies right there, yeah. So are you really, are you using marshmallow fluff in it?

Tonya Kubo (13:45)
No. To push in the chair. You’re like, “‘Cause I can’t get to the chair to push it in.”

Yes, I’m making fudge this weekend too. Anyway, I am.

I am using marshmallow fluff in it. I took a whole class on how to make fudge using marshmallow fluff. It was fun.

Kathi Lipp (14:05)
I saw that I saw that well,

I saw the fudge class. I didn’t know that there was the marshmallow fluff. Yeah, I’m very excited I’m just using a recipe off the internet But as you know, we live next to not next to you know half I don’t know 20 minutes away from a gourmet chocolate shop, which is the only Yeah, they’re a whiner They ship they’re so good but also let’s just say their fudge has gourmet prices and I’m like

Tonya Kubo (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Little John’s, they ship. Little John’s, you should order from Little John’s.

Yes

Kathi Lipp (14:35)
How much would it cost for me to do this? And Roger’s like, we can buy their other stuff. We never have to buy fudge again. And I was like, I’m an indentured fudge servant now. Got it. Okay. Okay. You know what? It’s good. Hey, speaking of fudge, number seven, I don’t buy all the gear for hobbies unless I have a pattern of doing the hobby. Because here’s what I’ve discovered, Tonya. You know what my hobby is? Buying the stuff for hobbies.

Tonya Kubo (14:44)
Yes, I am too.

Mmm.

I

was gonna say preparing to have a hobby.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)
So here’s what I said, know, like one of the recipes that I am preparing right now called for a candy thermometer. And I’m like, ugh.

Tonya Kubo (15:17)
I need that for the fudge recipe with the marshmallow fluff. You need a candy thermometer.

Kathi Lipp (15:20)
Okay, so here’s what I told

myself if I prepare three recipes right now that don’t require the the thermometer if I if I prepare these three Christmas gift II things then I am allowed to buy a Candy thermometer and I got one by the way Michaels has 30 % off coupons for a while now. So go check that out I got the I think it’s the Wilson one but

Tonya Kubo (15:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ew.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)
I cannot tell you how many hobbies I’ve invested in and had to keep that stuff because I invest I told myself I’ve invested so heavily I need to keep all this stuff. It just it doesn’t make sense and it’s not the right thing. So I no longer I need to have a pattern of Can I start this hobby with stuff I have or can I start this hobby for less than ten dollars? And if I find that I really enjoy it

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Then I will keep going but I am NOT going to go I’ll just say my history is buying at a professional level and performing at an amateur level like it’s not good

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
I

know that feeling though. If I have the same paints and brushes that Bob Ross has, I will make the same pictures that Bob Ross made.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)
Right.

Right, right.

And you know, our friend Cheri Gregory, friend of the podcast, Cheri Gregory calls it buying to become and I have done that for years and years. Okay, Tonya, number eight.

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Yeah.

Okay, I kind of stole from you because you said that you scan a room before you leave. Before I go to bed, I make a round through the house specifically for dirty dishes. And here’s my, if I made a round through my house for decluttering, I would never make it to bed. But I can make a pass through my teeny tiny house just for dirty dishes in about 25 minutes. And it makes my life so much easier that

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

so smart.

No, of course not.

Hmm

Tonya Kubo (17:24)
Like, know, because all run into bulls, where are all the bulls? The bulls are in the kids’ room underneath the bed. Why are they underneath the bed? I actually can’t answer that question, but that is where I find them.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Okay, Tonya, we are missing a bowl right now. There are just two of us. There are just two of us. This giant glass bowl, we cannot find. Is it under Lily’s bed? That’s my question now.

Tonya Kubo (17:36)
Maybe it’s under my bed!

It’s probably under Lily’s bed, and this is the worst of it, right? Is the way that Abby’s bed works, it sits lower to the ground. So Abby shoves stuff underneath Lily’s bed too. It’s not even all Lily’s fault.

Kathi Lipp (17:52)
Ugh.

Poor Lily. I’m sorry Lily. I did not mean to throw you under the bus bus or the bed Okay, so you do so what 25 minutes that seems like a long time so break that down for me Really okay

Tonya Kubo (18:13)
It’s a lot of dishes in my kid’s room and a lot of

dishes by Mr. Kubo’s desk. So it’s two trips. Two to three trips from the girl’s room, two trips from Brian’s desk and then

Kathi Lipp (18:20)
Got it. So you’re having to make multiple trips. Got it. Okay. And then

And and you’re

loading you’re soaking all that. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay Okay, that makes total sense. And I think doing doing a round of dishes I really feel like when everything else in your life falls apart the two things that you need to stay on top of are dishes and laundry because Mm-hmm. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (18:49)
Yes and I will say just really quickly that 25 minutes

does include a good five minute temper tantrum of my gosh what is growing in this thing.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)
I love it. Yeah, the the the Dishes and laundry if you stay on top of those like I don’t care how crunchy your kitchen floor gets I don’t care, you know at the I would say the third thing but this doesn’t have to be done as Much is staying on top of bills. Those are the important things that if you fall behind on them It’s going to be super painful to recover from them

Tonya Kubo (19:01)
That’s in there too.

No.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:25)
But if you can stay on top of those three things, it takes almost the same amount of energy to mop the floor when it’s been a week or five weeks. Like, I don’t want you to have to go five weeks, but if you need to in a crisis, you can. And yeah, and also stay on top of your garbage and recycling. number nine. This is my last thing of things I don’t do now that I live clutter free.

Tonya Kubo (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:55)
Okay, I try not to I’m still working through this but I’m much better than I used to be I don’t compare my stuff to my friends stuff so Or stuff on social media. There is always a new thing That would make my life two percent easier or two percent better Not not my entire life if something made my entire life two percent better you bet I’m going to invest in that but like

Tonya Kubo (20:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:25)
Let’s say, know, my, my robot vacuum, there are now robot vacuums that you can control remotely. Like I could be at my mom’s house and now I could get that doesn’t make my life better enough to upgrade my robot. Like my robots fine. We get along. We, she does what she needs to do. I’m sorry. It’s normally a he. I don’t know why I said she, cause I like for all my domestic labor to be he’s.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)
Because I just think that’s fair But I Just because somebody else has something that has made their life Infamates Lee better. It doesn’t mean that I need to upgrade it. I I try when I see you wearing a cute sweater I’m not going to say you know what? need that cute sweater. I’m gonna I’m one of things I’m trying to do is go into my own closet

Tonya Kubo (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:22)
and see

my own cute sweaters and the things that make me happy. So I’m trying really hard to reframe what my friends have. And also that can be a form of jealousy. I can just say, you know what? I’m really happy that Tonya has that sweater. I think she looks great in it. She’s having fun with it. And it makes me happy to see her in it. And it doesn’t have to be, I don’t have to own it for it to bring me happiness. So trying to stay out of that comparison trap.

Tonya Kubo (21:33)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)
And I’m sure when you go into people’s houses that have floors, that can be hard.

Tonya Kubo (21:57)
I do have floor envy right now, I’m not gonna lie. If you’ve got luxury vinyl plank, I’m eyeballing your floors, let me tell ya.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)
I you do.

And I do have that upstairs and I wrestled over that decision for about two years And I’m so glad we pulled the trigger It’s so painful to get flooring done just because of all the moving and shifting and all that kind of stuff Okay, Tonya round out our list. Give us number ten. All right

Tonya Kubo (22:09)
Yeah, no.

It is.

My cluttery peeps will get this. I no longer gain comfort or security from having full shelves, full drawers, etc.

Kathi Lipp (22:33)
yeah, space scares us, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)
Space is scary because space is scarcity and lack and my gosh what

if I don’t have enough. But if things are full even if they’re full of stuff that you haven’t worn in 22 years you believe you have enough clothes if for some reason they stopped making all clothing.

Kathi Lipp (22:48)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Tonya, this is so interesting. A number of people on TikTok and other apps are doing a no buy 2025, right? And the conventional wisdom is declutter your closet so you can see what you have. And then, so you know what you have, because it is, it’s easier to see what you have when you have less stuff in your closet.

Tonya Kubo (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
But I heard one woman, I thought this was so interesting. And I’m just gonna throw this out there for your reaction. She goes, I am not decluttering before my 2025. Because when I declutter, I feel like there is empty space. And I feel this urge to fill that space with shopping, with thrifting, with all these other things. So what she is doing is she is.

Tonya Kubo (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:50)
putting some of her clothes into another closet, including clothes she likes, so that she will, she remember, I’ve got more stuff. I don’t know, how does that hit you? I thought it was really interesting. Really.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I have a friend who does that actually. she has,

yeah, so she boxes up all of her extra stuff, even if it’s in the current season. And she has it all in like the rafters of her garage. But whenever she’s like, I wanna go shopping, she just goes and she takes a box down and she trades out pieces.

Kathi Lipp (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I think it’s really interesting. And so I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I’m going to try the other closet boxing because yeah, when I pull out all my winter stuff, I’m so happy. I’m like, I never need to go shopping again. And then after about two weeks, I’m like, you know, people are really into these green grandpa sweaters and like, okay, Kathi, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Tonya Kubo (24:50)
Yeah,

see, and I’m the person, I want all of my clothing to be able to fit in this much of my closet. Like, I don’t wanna ever change anything out. I don’t wanna work that hard. I’m just so, like, I don’t wanna say lazy, but really it’s just like, that is just something that takes such a high level of perceived energy for me that I’m like, I’m good.

Kathi Lipp (24:56)
Yes, you.

Yeah.

Okay, see, even within our Cluttery community, we all have our own little quirks. And that’s why it’s okay for you to forge your own path, but think about the wisdom that will get you to the next space in your Clutter-free journey. I hope one of these has inspired you today. Tonya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (25:18)
We do.

Thanks for having me.

Kathi Lipp (25:37)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#647 The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Dec 10, 2024 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, How to, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Parenting, Podcast, Tasks, tips and ideas | 0 comments

Listen Now

647 – The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

Hey friends! Have you ever felt so ashamed of your home that you would rather hide than invite anyone over?

In this powerful episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into the emotional landscape of clutter, shame, and isolation. They candidly share personal experiences of feeling trapped by household disorganization and the psychological barriers that prevent people from seeking help.

Listeners will discover:

How clutter can lead to social withdrawal
The importance of accountability and community in overcoming organizational challenges
The benefits of joining the supportive, compassionate Clutter Free for Life community

Listeners will find inspiration in their message of self-acceptance and practical strategies for creating functional, livable spaces and transforming one’s relationship with home organization.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

Join Clutter Free For Life

While Clutter Free for Life comes with a plan of action to keep you moving forward in your decluttering journey day after day, the true magic of this membership program is in the community. It’s a program FOR cluttery people BY cluttery people.

It’s a family of cluttery people who want better for themselves and for you. We all understand the emotional weight of clutter and the physical barriers it causes. Clutter Free for Life members have a team of experts who know what it’s like to feel overwhelmed as their guides. Want to see whether the membership is right for you? Check out our info page Clutter Free For Life.

Can you share a personal story about how clutter once isolated you?

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

Well, hey friends, welcome to clutter free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life And I’m back and you know guys, we’re just gonna keep talking about it. We’re gonna keep talking about clutter. We’re gonna keep talking about all the reasons that we need to crush the clutter in our lives, especially as we’re going into the holidays because can we just, okay, I’m gonna say something controversial. Hey, Tonya, by the way. Hey, Tonya’s here. Can I say holidays are their own form of clutter?

Tonya Kubo (00:42.622)

Bye.

Tonya Kubo (00:49.406)

they totally are.

Kathi (00:51.2)

Yeah, that you know, clutter is not always bad. I right now downstairs, I’ve got some clutter on my table. But the clutter on my table is stuff I want. Or I don’t know if I want it, but I have to investigate like there’s mail down there. One of another podcaster I was on her show, we were talking about soups and we were talking about her favorite soup. And she said, my favorite soup is made with chow chow.

Tonya Kubo (00:57.49)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (01:21.676)

And I’m like, the only thing I know that is chow chow is either dog foods or dogs. So, do you know what chow chow is? How do you know what chow chow is?

Tonya Kubo (01:28.584)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Church fundraiser cookbooks?

Kathi (01:39.523)

Okay, that is fascinating. So, chow chow, would you explain it because I’ve actually never tasted it. Go for it. Or do you know? I know it’s made with cabbage, right? It’s like a relish with cabbage.

Tonya Kubo (01:56.11)

It’s, I think it’s a relish and people put whatever they want in it. It’s one of those things, it reminds me of, you know, it’s like every family has their own way of doing it, but it’s like canned, it’s home canned. And the people who love it, really, really love it. My mom hated it. My mom was like, ehh.

Kathi (02:17.48)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kathi (02:23.128)

So I was having this conversation with another podcaster and she was telling me about her, believe it’s a beef stew recipe that uses chow chow as a main ingredient. And I said, well, that sounds really interesting. She was kind enough to, she went to an Amish store and shipped me two cans of chow chow, or at least that’s what she’s told me. I have not opened the box yet, but I’m gonna go buy the ingredients to make her recipe and.

Tonya Kubo (02:27.016)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:31.986)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:42.162)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:47.517)

Right.

Kathi (02:52.738)

do that. So it’s clutter, because it’s not put away. But also there’s a category of clutter, where there’s no way to put it yet, because I have never had a chow chow section of my pantry before. And I just like saying chow chow. Can you tell?

Tonya Kubo (02:55.676)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (03:07.456)

Right. I know. But remember, our definition of clutter is do you love it? Do you use it? Would you? Could you buy it again? I add the could you part. But for you, you know, it’s like it just needs to find a home.

Kathi (03:13.688)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi (03:25.408)

So, so Tonya what this is is Schrodinger’s chow chow because I both want it and don’t know if I want it I both will use it and have never used it And I don’t know that I would buy it again because I’ve never bought it once So it is it is Schrodinger’s chow chow and that’s okay. That’s okay

Tonya Kubo (03:51.55)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (03:52.362)

We don’t need to we don’t need to have a category for everything there has to be some space in your house for the things that you haven’t decided on but I do want to talk about what clutter can do to us because you and I have both lived with hoarders and I would say one of the the worst part about clutter hoarding is the extreme version obviously

Tonya Kubo (04:01.447)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:17.662)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:20.792)

But even as a young mom, I really struggled with clutter. And I would say it was isolating for me. Like I didn’t want to have people over. I remember thinking, it’s okay to have kids over, but I don’t want to have their parents over until a kid said something about my clutter. And I’m like, well, I don’t want to have anybody over anymore. And I, did you…

Tonya Kubo (04:39.154)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:48.61)

Did you also experience that isolation with your clutter?

Tonya Kubo (04:53.116)

Yeah, well, I mean, you referenced it in your book, Clutter Free. And I remember the first time I read that and realizing, right, like I couldn’t have anybody over when I was a kid. I mean, every now and then my mom would make an exception. But, you know, it was always having to balance like, OK, if I let a friend come over, were they going to go to school and talk about how my house looked? Right. And then, you know, I made a conscious decision, especially when the girls were little, that I wasn’t going to let the condition of my house.

Kathi (04:56.492)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (05:13.342)

Right. Yeah, right.

Tonya Kubo (05:23.326)

prevent me from inviting people over. So I would just tell people, I’m not cleaning for you. But I had a similar experience when I was pregnant with Abby. And like I had a potluck, a mops potluck at my house. And this one little girl came up to me and she was like, why is your house so messy? And my friend got offended for me. My friend Justine, who you know, got really offended for me. And she was like,

Kathi (05:49.358)

Bye now, Justine.

Tonya Kubo (05:51.612)

because she works full time. That’s why. she, I remember the little girl, cause she said, you only have one child and my mom has four. Why is your house so messy? My mom keeps our house clean. Which you know she got because her parents were talking about that at home, right?

Kathi (06:06.169)

Kathi (06:10.798)

I want to retroactively punch somebody in that family. Maybe not the child, but somebody.

Tonya Kubo (06:15.836)

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Tonya Kubo (06:20.994)

Right, and so then of course you have my friend Justine Popsin, well because she works full time and your mom doesn’t. Right, which is of course like total mommy-war stuff.

Kathi (06:31.106)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (06:33.054)

I just looked at it I said, know what? A clean house is a higher priority for your mom and your dad than it is for me and my husband. That’s all.

Kathi (06:44.494)

Okay, you gave the highly evolved answer. I might have said something like, well, your mommy’s also on antidepressants, which really helps with the… No, I wouldn’t have said that, but I’d want to say that because there’s no shame in being on antidepressants at all. Let’s be super clear. But also, I would want that little girl to be… I would want to punish her.

Tonya Kubo (06:44.572)

End.

Tonya Kubo (07:13.15)

Nah, she didn’t know any better.

Kathi (07:13.334)

Okay, you know what? I take back what I said about the antidepressants because people I love the most in the world are antidepressants. But that would have been my very unevolved response 30 years ago when I had kids and mops. Okay, that’s cute that I think I had kids. Yeah, 30 years ago. Okay, yeah. So I’m sorry. I’m just I’m, I’m, I’m D detangling stuff.

Tonya Kubo (07:30.686)

No.

Tonya Kubo (07:36.296)

I apologize for derailing our conversation about isolation.

Kathi (07:40.366)

You know, I think about it though, because well, okay, I think we just proved something there, or at least I did my unevolved response proves something. What will make me act terribly faster than shame?

Tonya Kubo (07:58.482)

Mm-hmm. yeah, totally. Well, and we have talked about this several times, right? We see that in Clutterfree Academy. I mean, so often, you know, we don’t get a lot of prickly people in there nowadays, right? Because we have such a strong culture and everybody really does want to be kind, but…

Kathi (08:01.923)

It

Kathi (08:08.47)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (08:14.272)

No. Mm hmm.

Kathi (08:21.027)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (08:21.746)

The times that we do get somebody super prickly, it’s because they are so deeply embedded in shame that they can’t see their way out of it. And I feel like, you know, it’s that hurting people hurt. A lot of times they’ll lash out because they want to take the offensive rather than, cause they assume somebody’s going to lash out at them.

Kathi (08:28.941)

Yeah.

Kathi (08:34.902)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (08:39.81)

Yeah.

Kathi (08:44.844)

Yeah, Tonya, have you heard that? Maybe we’ve talked about it on here, the 17 diapers discussion. Have we talked about that? Yeah. And, you know, I think the people who are so hard on the mom who had 17 diapers for her brand newborn, who was doing it all on her own, are the people who either there are two ends of the spectrum. They get their validation from their house being perfect.

Tonya Kubo (08:51.034)

Yes, I think a couple episodes ago.

Tonya Kubo (09:04.883)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (09:14.846)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (09:15.554)

Or I could never live like that, but they’ve got some something else that they would never ever tell another human being. And so like, well, I’m not 17 diapers, so you’re worse than I am. Well, yeah, but you know, you do this other thing that you would never want the world to know about. it’s clutter can be so isolating, you know, and I think

Tonya Kubo (09:29.896)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (09:43.938)

once we get to a certain point, we feel like we can’t ask for help. Like I dug myself into this. I’m going to dig myself out. And we just don’t have a support system. And we get to this place where there’s so much self-criticism. We start to change the chemistry of our brain to believe, can we actually do something about this or not? So we have well articulated the problem. You have also seen my

Tonya Kubo (09:51.036)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (10:13.656)

propensity for rage based on something that was said to Tonya maybe 10 years ago, but here we are. Here we are, friends.

Tonya Kubo (10:20.594)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (10:25.786)

Everybody knows what a loyal friend you are though, Kathi, now.

Kathi (10:28.442)

Yeah, I write it done But I want to come back to what are some things that if you’re feeling in that space where you feel like you can’t do anything What are some things that you can actually get done? So we’re gonna take a little break and come right back

Okay, friends, we’re talking about the shame and isolation of clutter. And Tonya and I want to come back and talk to you about that. Because we’ve both been there. We know a lot of people who have been there. And we know that there’s a way out because here, I love that story about the man who falls down in the hole. And a you know this story. And I’m sure most of our listeners do but

Tonya Kubo (11:06.856)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (11:11.97)

You know, a priest walks by and says, I see you’re down in the hole. And he throws a prayer down to him. And then a politician comes by. He says, I see you’re down in the hole. And he throws a law down to him. And then there’s a police officer who comes by and he throws a law about you’re not supposed to be down in the hole. And then finally, a friend comes by and

He jumps in to the hole and the guy in the hole says, why did you do that? Now we’re both stuck in the hole. And the friend who jumped in says, yeah friend, but I know the way out and I can show you. So let’s get out together. like I’ve heard that story for 25 years ever since I first heard it on West Wing and it still gives me chills because I feel like

Tonya Kubo (11:56.36)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (12:10.924)

That is so much of what we do in Clutter-Free Academy and Clutter-Free Life is friend, I’ve been in the hole before, but I actually know the way out. Let’s get out together. And maybe you don’t know your way completely out of the hole. And by the way, Tonya, that person from the Mops group would come to my house today and her daughter would say, why is your house so messy?

Tonya Kubo (12:12.882)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (12:39.264)

And I would say, you know what, my house is perfect for me. Because apparently her mom had different priorities and that is just fine for her family. But my home is happy, my home is clean. And we get to do a lot of wonderful cooking and loving and entertaining and work in our homes. And I’m really, really grateful. And so if that sounds like how you want your home to be.

Tonya Kubo (12:42.333)

Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (12:52.488)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (13:08.18)

If that sounds like how the kind of home you would like your kids or your grandkids to be in, I would love to tell you some things that have happened for us. So first of all, accountability. Tonya, how do you feel like accountability works in our groups?

Tonya Kubo (13:26.192)

Yeah, well, in ClutterFree Academy, right, the accountability piece is really more on the member. We have some members that want to be, you know, they want support and accountability. And so they post their before and after pictures. They ask specifically like, hey, you know what, can somebody check in on me at the end of the day, make sure I did what I said I would do. Whereas in ClutterFree for life, because it’s a paid membership program,

Kathi (13:34.786)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:54.608)

and people really are saying, I am going to pay you to boss me around, Tonya Kathi Grace, right? We actually are a little bit more proactive in the accountability. So we’re checking in daily. I am somebody who pays attention if somebody who has been active is quiet and I reach out to them. And usually, I mean, like I’m not like calling them or showing up at their house, okay? I’m not over the top, but I’ll tag them in a post in the group.

Kathi (13:59.778)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi (14:12.812)

Mmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:23.486)

I might drop them an email just to see. Because the thing is, is I know life gets in the way of our best intentions all the time. And what I know is that once you fall out of that routine, sometimes, like for me, all I need to do is skip two days and it’s no longer my routine. It’s no longer a habit. Like that’s how fragile my habits are. And so I know that on day three, it’s very easy to say, well, you know what? I messed up. I’m out for the whole month.

Kathi (14:31.63)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (14:52.332)

Right. If it’s not perfect, then I’m not going to get the rewards of somebody who’s perfect. So I’m out of here.

Tonya Kubo (14:52.999)

Right?

Tonya Kubo (14:58.982)

Yeah, or you know what? I have let Tonya and Kathi down. I get apology emails left and right. I am so sorry, Tonya, but this happened and that happened and you know what? I’m like, I get it because I felt that way too. And I’m always like, please pick up wherever you left off, just pick it up. We’re here for you. Is there something I can immediately help you with? And I’ll tag them in that post or that coaching session. Because that’s the other thing is,

Kathi (15:17.101)

Yeah.

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (15:28.062)

Our weekly coaching sessions, as much as they are designed to help people with the next step, they’re a great place for people to come and discuss what’s hard and get peer-to-peer support in addition to support from our team.

Kathi (15:39.074)

Yeah.

Kathi (15:43.758)

Yes, and I love the accountability. It keeps me on track because it’s so easy for life to crowd out things in another way. But the accountability says, no, Kathi, you’ve said that this is important to you. We’re just reminding ourselves of what’s important and that’s what we need. So there’s power and accountability being able and I think part of the accountability for me is to say I’m not the worst person in the world.

Tonya Kubo (15:52.819)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:00.538)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:14.297)

yeah.

Kathi (16:14.316)

that I don’t have the worst house in the world. And another part, and I know you’ll get this Tonya, and I think our listeners will too, cleaning out that drawer in my bathroom that has been bugging me for so long and has made me feel gross. If I shared that with my family, they might say, well, that’s what you’re supposed to do. But if I share it with,

Tonya Kubo (16:17.34)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:24.04)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:33.555)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:41.435)

Right.

Kathi (16:43.776)

My clutter free group. They’re going to say no we get this that’s important. That’s big And getting that, you know sharing strategies getting that support Is so crucial, but I think the number one thing for me is saying You don’t need to live in shame I have been there or I am there and you know, the only shameful thing is to give up and I don’t even want to shame people who are giving up because

But the only thing that should be like, I need to change this desperately right now is giving up. Because you’ve said that this is important to you and you wanna live a different way and we wanna be there to help you. And the longer I do this, Tonya, the more I see our clutter-free group being like any other recovery group, like an AA meeting or an NA meeting or.

Tonya Kubo (17:25.502)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:38.322)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (17:42.358)

You know a whatever whatever kind of meeting you can think of way that Yeah, you can do it on your own, but why make it a thousand times harder?

You know, because be around people who not only support your recovery, but understand the challenges you’re having in that recovery.

Tonya Kubo (18:03.386)

Yeah, well, people having ideas that you haven’t thought of. mean, this is something that has come up quite a bit in the paid membership program is a shoe or buying a shoe organizer to organize unmentionables in a way that they hang on the back of a door in a house that doesn’t have a lot of space. Right.

Kathi (18:19.47)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (18:27.138)

Yeah, interesting.

Tonya Kubo (18:28.796)

I mean, it’s fascinating actually, the different things you can put in a shoe organizer. But some of us are like, well, it says shoe organizer, so we only think of using that for shoes. And then somebody else says, this is what I do. And you go, I can’t even visualize that. And then they say, well, I’ll just post a picture. And then you’re like, wow.

Kathi (18:33.667)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (18:39.512)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (18:50.006)

Yeah. Okay. You know why I love that so much, Tonya? my goodness. Do you know why I love that? Because the things online are only the aesthetically pleasing things because you want to be able to go to your drawer and see all the little compartments and you want to get that high from it being overly organized and color coordinated. And you know, there are organizing systems out there that, you know, you, you put things from yellow to purple.

Tonya Kubo (19:01.32)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (19:19.772)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (19:20.026)

And that’s the only way you’re and it makes me crazy because our houses are not set up like that I don’t have a walk-in closet My closet is a walkout closet, know, and I do have a shoe organizer in there But can I tell you my shoe organizing system? Do you want to hear how awesome this? Okay So every night when I’m getting into bed and I’m changing into my clothes, I kick my shoes into the bottom

Tonya Kubo (19:27.773)

Right.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (19:39.366)

I do, I wanna hear it.

Kathi (19:49.39)

the closet in a jumble and then on Saturdays I put them away so You usually have five to six pairs of shoes on the bottom of the closet For about a week and then I put them away so I can find them again But you know what it works for me. Yeah, am I am I ready to get photographed for House Beautiful? I am NOT and if they came here, I’d break their camera, but it

Tonya Kubo (19:51.07)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (20:13.852)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (20:17.792)

My life is so much better than my shoes being all over the house every day tripping over them. It’s, it’s, do I want to be perfect or do I want to be sustainable? I want to be sustainable.

Tonya Kubo (20:30.46)

Yeah, no, exactly. mean, and I’m somebody, I only like alternate between two pairs of shoes usually. I tuck them underneath the bed, right? Because I get dressed in the dark because I get up hours before Brian does. So I just, there’s one little spot underneath the bed. That’s where my shoes live. I put them on, I’m good to go. And I think that’s the other thing that, so there is a time for aesthetics. There really is.

Kathi (20:36.824)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (20:40.366)

Perfect. Yeah.

Kathi (20:45.836)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (21:00.892)

But most of us now is not that time, right? Now is the time to minimize, like get as much out of there and to make our houses functional. So, you know, like for us right now, like socks are such a battle when you have kids and it was fine when their feet were not as big as mine. Now that our feet are all the same size.

Kathi (21:12.782)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (21:18.638)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (21:27.774)

It’s a problem. So we have two of those fabric cubes and all the socks go in there and we don’t match them. We don’t do anything. It is absolutely not a great long-term solution, but I don’t have socks all over the house and I’m not worried about whose socks are in whose drawer.

Kathi (21:44.814)

Okay, can I tell you my ultimate sock solution that I did when I had teenagers? I don’t know if this will work for you, but my girls would keep stealing my socks. I had black no-show socks. So what I did was I ordered a dozen Barney socks and.

Tonya Kubo (21:48.59)

I’ll take it. I will take it.

Kathi (22:11.726)

they were never touched by my teenage girls.

Tonya Kubo (22:15.423)

that’s funny.

Kathi (22:16.972)

Because I was so sick of, I literally did not have socks. And I’m like, I, go ahead.

Tonya Kubo (22:21.478)

Right. Well, I was going to say, yeah, I don’t have socks, but it’s not the girl’s fault. Remember, Brian does the laundry and Brian has an organization system that is called Mine Not Mine.

Kathi (22:29.326)

Right?

Tonya Kubo (22:36.922)

And if it is not his, then it goes all in the same pile. Right? And so the girls and I, was like their underwear in my drawer, my underwear in their drawer. And I would always like hold up their underwear. like, what part of you thinks this is my size? And that’s when he explained, he’s like, Tonya, it’s a simple system. It’s mine and not mine. And if it’s not mine, I just kind of assume maybe it’s yours.

Kathi (22:43.01)

Yes.

Kathi (22:47.726)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (22:53.366)

Right, right, right, right.

Kathi (23:05.302)

Okay, thank you, Brian, for doing laundry. Grateful.

Tonya Kubo (23:06.59)

Exactly. I am grateful for the laundry and now we have this weird commingled sock thing, but it works for now. once, Lily and I have been talking about this, it’s like, okay, once our frustration level gets to the point that we are ready to solve it on our own, we will do that. Until then we do not complain and we tolerate the solution that dad has come up

Kathi (23:25.708)

Right. Right.

Yes, Barney the Dinosaur, just keep that in your back pocket.

Tonya Kubo (23:34.928)

I might actually, that’s tempting.

Kathi (23:39.138)

Yeah, just make your stuff so undesirable that nobody else in the house will touch it. Yeah. Okay. So Tonya, this is literally the last day of our sale.

Tonya Kubo (23:44.872)

Right.

Tonya Kubo (23:51.794)

Right, well, we haven’t even talked about the clutter free for life sale!

Kathi (23:54.646)

So here’s why I’m gonna ask you if people are feeling isolated, what is our last ditch effort to say one, you’re the person who might benefit from this and two, what it’s gonna change for you.

Tonya Kubo (24:09.05)

I mean, it’s clutter free for life, right? So I guess here’s the thing is if you were looking for your house to be Pinterest perfect in 30 days, this is not the program for you. This is for the person who says it’s going to take time. It’s going to take effort. It’s a day to day thing that I’m going to have to work on. I’m going to slip. I’m going to fall. I might not even like look at the program materials for three months time. I may not. But when I’m ready,

Kathi (24:12.045)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (24:39.354)

I will have this whole community of people who are waiting for me and are happy to help me pick back up. Then Clutter Free for Life is 100 % for you. You can do our annual pass right now. It’s over 60 % off of regular price. Month to month is totally an option as well. But right now the annual pass is just 118 for a whole year. That’s what, like nine bucks? You do the math way better than I do, Kathi. It’s like nine bucks a month.

Kathi (25:04.098)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (25:07.958)

And it’s worth trying out and giving it a go. And if it’s not for you, then you’ll know in the first 30 days, I think. Because we’re pretty laid back and sometimes we’re just too laid back for people. I get that. But I really think you just… They do. People do come in really expecting me to be mean. And I’m just like, I don’t have it in me. I’m sorry.

Kathi (25:16.482)

Yeah, for sure.

Kathi (25:21.696)

Yeah, no, they want us to be meaner to them.

Kathi (25:30.732)

No, that’s not what we do here. We’re nice and Right

Tonya Kubo (25:34.106)

I have a lot of compassion and I think my compassion, I actually had somebody last January who was like, no, like I don’t deserve compassion. And I was like, yeah, you do. And they were telling me, they’re like, you don’t understand. And they were telling me like how lazy they were and all these things. And I said, wow, you have really high expectations of yourself. And they were like, well, yeah. And I said, and how’s that working? And they just kind of stopped. And I said, you know, like,

Kathi (25:46.04)

We all deserve compassion.

Tonya Kubo (26:04.07)

I can’t say the word right now. Recrimination, self-recrimination has, like it sounds like you have a history of that and it hasn’t been effective. So what if we tried compassion?

Kathi (26:06.636)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (26:14.092)

Yeah, yeah, because if you’re going to keep doing the same thing you’ve always been doing and it hasn’t worked And here’s the thing I come from a generation I come from generations of people who wanted to shame themselves into better behavior And it just it doesn’t work. Okay friends today’s the last day, but here’s the beautiful thing if it doesn’t work for you 30-day guarantee what if you got to lose and I think

Tonya Kubo (26:28.882)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi (26:43.488)

If you stick with it, you’re gonna see results. You may not feel like you see results in the first week, but within the first two weeks, you’re gonna start to see some noticeable results in your life. And we wanna be there to cheer you on. So I’m putting the link down there. It’s normally 299. You can join any time of the year for 299. But if you wanna get the super, because we like to onboard everybody at once. It saves our team a lot of time and a lot of energy.

Tonya Kubo (26:55.166)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (27:10.79)

Yep.

Kathi (27:13.006)

118 and That’s It’s less than $10 a month To know that you’re on the right track Tonya. Thanks for hanging out with me Okay, and friends, thank you for hanging out you’ve been listening to clutter free Academy. I’m Kathi lip now Go start the clutter free life. You’ve always wanted to live

Tonya Kubo (27:21.63)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (27:26.44)

Thanks for having me.

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