#678 &#8211; The Great Laundry Debate: Sorting, Systems, and Space-Saving Secrets

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Meet Our Guest

Julie Ubbenga

Julia is a wife, a mom of five, and a minimalist-living coach. Julia is passionate about helping others live a more meaningful life with less stuff. See what she’s up to in her journey of simplifying and making space for what matters at her website.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)

Hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. I am here with Tonya Kubo and Tonya, we have a very deep topic today, one that people have big feelings about. We’ve recently done some laundry episodes, but I want to talk about the actual space ? where your laundry is. Now you and I have different spaces for our laundry.

? Yours is in the garage, right? Yeah, I lived for many, years with laundry in the garage. Can I just say it had some pros and cons. I wonder if it does for you as well. What are your feelings about laundry in the garage, your garage being your laundry room?

Tonya Kubo (00:42)

Correct.

? like this is the only time I’ve ever lived someplace where the laundry was in the garage. So ? I don’t have a lot of comparison. I don’t like it being outside of the house, but at the same time, it’s nice not to have the laundry pile inside the house.

Kathi Lipp (00:59)

Okay?

Yeah, I had it ? at one of my homes. Well, actually, growing up, it was outside in the garage. And then the first house I co-owned with my then husband, it was outside. And I liked it not being in the house, but I missed it being in the house. Yeah, OK. So that’s not helpful, I know. But ? yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (01:40)

? I feel like that’s exactly how I feel.

Kathi Lipp (01:44)

It was just nice that, you know, we could put things out there. There was enough room for like a rolling rack so we could hang things. And my laundry room currently, which you have seen, is the smallest laundry room I’ve ever seen in my entire life. ? I think it was built for when laundry, when washing machines were much, they weren’t as deep. And so, ?

Tonya Kubo (01:50)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)

You have to kind of slide in there to do things, but you make what you make work, right? And so, yeah. So I recently, ? I like having my laundry space indoors now, especially since we live in such, it can be very, very cold here. And the laundry room can either be a stress zone or a streamlined system.

Tonya Kubo (02:15)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (02:36)

And so let’s spend some time to make it streamlined. Let’s make this happen. we just recently did a post over on my page about laundry where people had very strong opinions, very, very strong feelings. We will talk about that in this episode. So if you’re like, are they gonna talk about it? Yes, we are. But. ?

I want to talk about how we can make that space, no matter what your sorting system is, as streamlined as possible. So I think the most important thing, at least for me, that nothing that is, anything that has nothing to do with laundry has no place in the laundry room, unless you have one of those giant laundry rooms where you can also put in a StairMaster or something.

That has never been my situation. Mine has always been in closets or those kind of things. So you clear the clutter. You know what you need in there. You need things like your detergent, your fabric softener, your color catchers, which if you don’t know what a color catcher is, that’s part of the big discussion going on in Facebook. These are, I found out about these because my mom’s a quilter.

And before you use a fabric to quilt with, you need to wash it to get all the dyes out. But you don’t want that dark red going on to the white polka dot. So you put in, it’s a shout color catcher, and we’ll put that in here in the show notes. And that little piece of absorbs, or I guess it’s a piece of paper, absorbs all that dye. And so your things don’t get messed up.

If you like to wash dangerously like I do, which means mixing colors and things like that, that is a beautiful thing to have. You also want your dryer sheets, your stain removers. We use dryer balls, all that kind of stuff. ? Let go of old empty products. We just recently, okay, my mom said she told me about this like seven years ago and apparently I ignored her. We’re not supposed to use bleach in our septic system.

Tonya Kubo (04:56)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (04:56)

?

Because it eats the microbes and yeah, which totally makes sense So we don’t need bleach anymore. So I got that out of there now. I still have a bleach pen I will die with that bleach pen in my cold dead hand ? Because I love Yes, if you see me being buried without that bleach pen You go talk to Roger. Okay, cuz something so some something suspicious. All right and then

Tonya Kubo (04:59)

Mm-hmm.

Okay, good to know.

Kathi Lipp (05:26)

Also, I think it’s time, I’ll never forget this. When we first bought our first house and there was a coat closet, I thought, wait, I could have matching hangers in that coat closet? Because we had come from a tiny, tiny apartment. And I guess it wasn’t the first house I owned, but it was the first house that was kind of big and it was my first coat closet. And my mom’s like, yeah, go crazy. And I bought matching hangers. And there is just something.

about matching hangers for me. You too, Tonya, I can see you nodding.

Tonya Kubo (05:59)

Oh yeah,

no, think, well, maybe not everybody, but yes, matching hangers, I feel like everything just is so much easier to like fit when all, cause all the hangers are the same size, the same length, all of that, that’s part of the matching piece. I love

Kathi Lipp (06:09)

Yes.

Yes, so Roger has white plastic hangers and I have the black velvet covered hangers because those velvet ones skeeve him out and the white ones my clothes fall off on them because all of his shirts are the button-up collar so like we just know what works for us so get rid of anything that it that you don’t need in there hangers baskets

Tonya Kubo (06:27)

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:43)

Laundry gadgets that you thought were going to solve all your problems and they just took up space and then I want you to think about Zones, this is step two. So do you need ? if you’re a sorter? Do you need different bins for maybe whites darks delicates that kind of thing. We have cabinets over our washing machine and dryers so we have some things in there like our lingerie bags and the cleaning products and things like that.

? So you need a sorting zone or you know, I don’t really have space for that So our sorting zone is if we’re sort anything it’s gonna be up in Roger’s closet where we keep the dirty clothes ? Don’t worry. I store a lot of things for him ? the cleaning zone. So all the cleaning products together ? Folding zone again. Mine is too small. We don’t really have a space for folding out there. So this is our very sophisticated syndrome

system, we grab everything from the dryer that doesn’t need to be hung up and we put it on the couch for Moose to then lay in. Because this is one of her chief, chief ? gifts in life is being able to lay in warm clothes. Now, where do you fold?

Tonya Kubo (08:03)

On the bed, on our bed specifically.

Kathi Lipp (08:06)

Okay, okay. That’s a bit. Yes. And that works for you, right? Like what other space are you going to do?

Tonya Kubo (08:10)

Yeah,

yeah, we don’t have a lot of other space and Otto also appreciates a nice pile of clean laundry to lay in as well.

Kathi Lipp (08:17)

Mmm.

Okay,

so has is it Susu is that am I? The new kitten who’s by the way doing great, right? Yes Has Susu discovered the warm laundry pile yet?

Tonya Kubo (08:23)

Yeah, Susu’s the kitten.

Yes, yes, very, very healthy.

Yes, yes. you know, it’s funny is Otto even likes an empty laundry basket. Like they just like baskets. But yes, we we put the laundry on the bed and we just tip the basket over on the side. So it doesn’t topple off the bed because that is really upsetting. And then we came in and he was like tucked all the way in the back, just like perched like a king on top of the pile.

Kathi Lipp (08:40)

Yes, right.

Oh,

I love it. I love it so much. It makes me so happy. Also, you know, all of this may not be contained in your laundry room, but if you have a big laundry room, a hanging zone, so we do, we have little hooks all across and then we have another bar that has S hooks on it that we can use for drying things or hanging shirts, that kind of thing. So that’s been really, really helpful.

We also air dry a lot of our stuff. And so we have a bathroom right next to the laundry room. So I’ll often just hang things from hangers in that bathroom that works for us. And then an ironing zone. So we don’t iron a bunch of stuff. We have pretty much decided unless somebody is getting married or buried, we’re probably not wearing something that’s ironed. But we do have ? up in one of our

Tonya Kubo (09:47)

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (09:53)

Extra bedrooms, we have an ironing board that kind of thing So I think the important thing is here It may not all be contained in your laundry room But you should have a system of where you are sorting your clothes where you’re keeping the cleaning supplies where you’re putting where you’re folding things Where you’re hanging things and where you’re ironing things if those are all part of your system ? Any any thoughts on that tonya anything that you would do differently or anything that you think about differently on that?

Tonya Kubo (10:23)

No, I think, you know, I mean, ultimately what you’re saying, Kathi is is it needs to function for you, for your family and for the space you have. Like you could never set up your laundry space like mine simply because you’ve got like this much space and like.

Kathi Lipp (10:42)

It’s a it’s

it’s the size of a half bathroom is our our whole laundry room.

Tonya Kubo (10:49)

? really? Is it that big? I feel like it’s much smaller than a half bathroom.

Kathi Lipp (10:51)

Okay, I was gonna say, I was gonna

say if that, yeah, yeah, it’s the size for a toilet in the sink. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (10:59)

Yeah, like, yeah, like

if you lived in Japan or in the downtown San Francisco. Yeah, super tiny, right? Whereas for, mean, like I don’t have a dedicated laundry room on one hand, but on the other hand, I have an entire garage and my washer and dryer set up against one wall. I could choose to make as much of that space my laundry room as I want.

Kathi Lipp (11:04)

Right, yes, it’s very tiny.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. Just know what it is and make sure that everybody in the family knows what it is and then you can go. Okay, so number three, ? toss or store. So get rid of broken or mismatched laundry baskets. Store off-season items like heavy blankets or guest bedding in someplace else. know, make sure that…

Tonya Kubo (11:31)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:49)

You know, one of my fatal flaws is just leaving things on top of the dryer for way too long. I’ve been known to, I know, I’m the only one, right? And so just making sure that you’re making it as intentional and useful as possible. Don’t let things linger there. Okay, and then number four, make it manageable. ? you figure out how many loads you’re doing in a week and

Tonya Kubo (11:55)

What? What? No. Shh.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (12:18)

Can you do one load a day? And I don’t sort my clothes, which is the big controversy. But one thing I do do, and it’s not sorting by colors, it’s sorting by textures, is I’ll do one load a week of things that I don’t wanna iron. Like all of Roger’s cotton shirts, my cotton shirts, cotton pants, that kind of thing. So. ?

Tonya Kubo (12:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:46)

But I will do that all at one space. So I will go and grab that out immediately. So there’s very little ironing to do. Now you have one person in your family who just does her own laundry. And so does she have a day of the week? What is that?

Tonya Kubo (12:59)

Mm-hmm.

Lily usually does her laundry on weekends, so either Saturday or Sunday, depending. But all of her clothes is like one load.

Kathi Lipp (13:12)

Right, right. And they’re mostly black, right? Yeah. Yes, I’ve met her. Yes. She’s a mini of my kids. Like, yeah, Kimberly ? and Amanda for a long time. Amanda, there was there used to be, I don’t know if there is anymore, a special detergent that’s just for black clothes. And yeah, so that was very important to Amanda for a very long time. Okay.

Tonya Kubo (13:15)

Yes, because you’ve met her.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:38)

We’re going to take a quick break and when we come back, we’re going to talk about organizing your laundry room and some ideas around that. So we’ll be right back.

Okay, friends, let’s talk about organizing this. Now, let me say between decluttering and organizing, let’s talk about a couple of things that maybe you should do. One thing is dust behind your dryer, especially. ? Get down there with a vacuum, really clean that out. Having a long, long reaching feather duster or ? one of those bristly brooms is a good thing.

And then also, if you haven’t done it in a while, cleaning out your dryer duct. So there are kits you can buy online or at Home Depot that is just a big snake to get down there because fires start this way and you should be cleaning that out either every six months or once a year, depending on how often you use it. But if your dryer is not functioning the way it should be, before you call a repairman,

Get that all cleaned out because you can have that so backed up that no air is flowing and it could be a real struggle and it causes a lot of dust in there. So give everything a good wipe down. Get a cleaner that you love. I have a combination of okay, I’m bougie. Let’s just be clear. I am super bougie. I love the smell of grapefruit. Don’t necessarily love the taste, love the smell. And so ?

I ordered Clorox wipes that are a grapefruit smell and I use the method cleaner that is that. So grabbing your roll of paper towels, giving everything a good wipe down, ? wiping the top of your washing machine. like the lid lifted but in there. And then also you should be washing the inside of your washing machine.

Tonya Kubo (15:19)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:44)

At least once every six months and so there’s a product for that. There’s a product for everything guys Of course there is I will put that in there, but you just want to clear that out now I’ve noticed also this may help one or two people out there ? When we back when we were using bleach like it wasn’t affecting anything ? It really damaged the top of our washing machine, and so I got some spray paint

that is for ? white enamel appliances. And I took some blue painter tape and I marked off all the things that I didn’t want that color and then laid an old towel across the tub so it didn’t get in there. And now you have to be willing to not use your washing machine for like a full day. But I sprayed that on there so it wouldn’t keep ? rusting and getting degraded. ?

? That’s something to think about with that, but clean that space really really well. You’re gonna feel so good ? And then this is the time to think about could I put some wall-mounted shelves or cabinets for storage in there if I need it a small rolling cart between the washer and dryer is a great like a slimline one ? Over-the-door racks for hanging items or storing cleaning supplies that those are some great ways to maximize space

I’ve also done, in one of my houses, we did an over the door shoe organizer for ? sorting. So we had some cleaning supplies in there, but I would also put things like single socks, that kind of thing. ? And then the next step, label everything. As I get older, I’m a bigger believer in…

marking it up like a kindergarten room and just labeling absolutely everything you need in there. ? And then installing hooks for things like if you’re keeping brooms or mops or reusable bags in there. And then I did something last year that ? I guess it’s been a couple of years now that I’m really glad I did. We’ve got those giant ? containers of laundry soap from Costco and they’re so

Tonya Kubo (18:06)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:08)

Heavy and for a while you knew that I had a problem with my thumb going all the way up to my shoulder and You trying to lift that thing was making me be in so much pain So I got these refillable jugs off of Amazon. I’ll put a link in there that are really cute and so I would put most of the soap in there and then I had a couple of leftover smaller containers soap containers and

and I would just fill that up. So it was like three containers, but I stored that, I could get rid of that giant container. None of these were super heavy and it just made everything look 10 % cuter and I’ll take 10%. So using clear jars or label container for things like detergent, dryer sheets, I have my dryer sheets in a little wooden crate. They’re not scented, so I’m not trying to keep the scent in them. They’re unscented.

Tonya Kubo (19:01)

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (19:04)

? has been really, really helpful. ? Anything you’ve done to make your space, I know probably in the garage you’re not so worried about cute, but anything you’ve done to make it more functional.

Tonya Kubo (19:14)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so we do have a hanging rack, right? Because certain things that we want to hang to dry. So we have a shelf that is over the washer and dryer. And so I like that a lot ? because it makes the laundry detergent, the dryer sheets and everything in easy access. And I keep a little tiny, it’s a very tiny trash can up there to put like the balls of lint.

Kathi Lipp (19:41)

Hmm,

guess.

Tonya Kubo (19:44)

I will share a cleaning tip. It’s a little weird, but I’m going to share it anyway. those of us like the one thing I will say that’s problematic about having your washer and dryer in the garage is you get a lot more dust than you would inside the house. But years ago, somebody had talked to me about taking the ball of lint out of the dryer trap and using that to clean off the top of the dryer because

Kathi Lipp (19:47)

Please.

yeah.

Interesting.

Tonya Kubo (20:08)

It takes

all the lint in the surface desk by static because there’s a bunch of static in there. And so I’ll do that to clean it off and then I wipe it down. But I don’t have like the balls of lint that collect once you get it wet. So that that’s my cleaning tip right there. That’s all I got for you folks. But it’s funny is it’s you know, it’s the only trash can in the whole house that actually doesn’t have trash. It’s just like very light because it just has lint balls in there.

Kathi Lipp (20:13)

Yeah!

Tonya Kubo (20:34)

But

it has been very helpful to us in terms of keeping the washer and the dryer a lot less dusty than they typically would be.

Kathi Lipp (20:42)

That’s nice.

I like that then you feel like you can actually use that surface. I love that so much Okay. Now let’s just talk about maintaining that area So you just got Tonya’s tip wipe down the washer and dryer regularly to prevent that dust buildup ? Clean out the lint trap after every load ? Kim had a roommate who didn’t know you were supposed to do that. She she went on vacation

Kim went on vacation and she comes back and she’s like, guys, this is a fire hazard. So I will tell you, if you take nothing else from this, clean out your vent, clean out your lint trap. Like, please, please, ? And regularly check behind the machines for stray socks or lint. ? We’ve gotten down there with like a flashlight just to see. And I will tell you, I…

Tonya Kubo (21:35)

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:42)

I’m not short, but I’m not tall. I’m a little bit taller than the average American woman. I’m 5’6″. And one of the things that’s really helped me is because washing machines now are built so they’re so, so deep. I keep a pair of barbecue tongs in the laundry room so I can reach that little tiny sock that’s all the way in the back. yeah, that’s…

I that has been very very helpful and I use that to grab things behind it and then Run that cleaning cycle on your washing machine with a wash cleaner. It really really does help Okay, so as we promised we’re talking about the link to the laundry post. So ? a few days ago I Admitted that I don’t sort my clothes and

People kept saying, can’t do that. They’re gonna become so dingy and so dark and your clothes are gonna be so gross. Okay, Tonya, have you ever seen me be dingy in my life? I am not a dingy person, okay? So I reject that in the name of Jesus Christ. now people have very, very big feelings. What were some of the reactions you saw, Tonya?

Tonya Kubo (22:43)

No. ?

Hahaha

you

But how I would sum it up is people have big feelings about laundry. And I think we see this a lot of times with our cluttery community, right? Is so many of us were raised in homes where there is a way, you know, there is the right way and then everything else is wrong and only idiots do it that way. And apparently like laundry brings that side out of everybody.

Kathi Lipp (23:17)

Yes.

It really does. It’s I hadn’t. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (23:24)

Because I have to,

I just want to tell you, Kathi like, I don’t actually care that much about what you do with your laundry, because you know what, I barely care about what I do with my laundry. But people, people are passionate about how other people do their laundry. That’s what I’m going to say.

Kathi Lipp (23:37)

Yes.

It’s really wild isn’t it? It’s very very wild. So here’s what I’ll say I’m gonna put a link to this in the show notes ? And I think I think you guys are going to enjoy reading that now right after I posted that because people were good I would say they’re getting heated but they were getting a little tiny some people were getting a little tiny judgy and Or they were saying, you know, could never do that. And so

Tonya Kubo (23:53)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:12)

This is how I’d like to reframe it for those of us who feel very religious about how we do laundry. If you are doing micro loads, like, you know, I my blues and my purples because, you know, that’s just that’s how I’ve always said and you are not overwhelmed by that. Go off you, you quiet queen. I love that for you. I love that you have so much calm in your life.

Tonya Kubo (24:28)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:41)

And I have never experienced that level of calm in my life. And so if you’re looking for ways to maybe change some things up, try washing dangerously. Like I have no problem. If I’ve got a new pair of jeans, I’m throwing a color catcher in there. And that color catcher is going to absorb that. Now, if you’re like, no, I’ve had these kinds of jeans before. They have such a dark dye.

They bleed for weeks. I don’t know why you would still buy those jeans, ? do what’s going to work for you. But that doesn’t mean just because it worked for your mom, it’s the best system. And so I want us to have laundry freedom, Tonya. This is really my siren call.

Tonya Kubo (25:25)

I’m just telling you, Kathi, we haven’t seen this level of controversy since I came out on this podcast about not using a top sheet in my bed. Do you remember that? Yeah, it’s okay.

Kathi Lipp (25:36)

Yeah, okay. I still have a little judgment for you. No, I know it’s very

European. I really do It’s okay. You know what? Here’s the thing Tonya, I never have to sleep in your bed Yeah, so it’s all good. It’s all good Yeah, when I did I will say when we were traveling to new york and we got an airbnb and there was no top sheet on it I I was like, yeah

Tonya Kubo (25:42)

Hahaha

You were like Tonya was

here first!

Kathi Lipp (26:06)

Yes, exactly. This is not for me. This is not for me. This is not for me. ? Okay, guys, we’re going to take a break and we’re going to come back and I’m going to talk about ? something that has earned a spot in my clutter free home. ? We are going to have such a great conversation with Julie Abenga. I never pronounce her name right. I never pronounce the same the twice.

But she said that that was fine. She has a new book called Declutter Your Heart and Your Home, How a Minimalist Life Yields Maximum Joy. And it’s such a great conversation. You’re gonna love it. Okay, so we will be right back.

Kathi Lipp (00:00)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life.

And guys, if you have been a listener to this podcast for any length of time, you know I am not a minimalist. You know that I might even be described by some people as a maximalist, but I’ve been able to take my maximalism, woo, if that’s even a word, and coexist with it in a joyful way. But I know some of you really desire to live a more minimalist life.

and have I got the guest for you. You guys, her name is Julia Ubbenga and she has this, you guys, it’s a fantastic new book, Declutter Your Heart and Your Home, How a Minimalist Life Yields Maximum Joy. guys, she is all about the joy. Julia, welcome to the podcast. We’re so grateful you’re here.

Julia Ubbenga (01:01)

Thank you, Kathi, It’s wonderful to be here talking with you today.

Kathi Lipp (01:04)

? Yeah, I, you know, like I told you before the show, we don’t have a lot of people on who are talking about decluttering because as a cluttering person, I love to collect other decluttering systems and things like that. But I could not get over your story. And so I’m just, I don’t know that I’ve ever just jumped in and said, hey, tell me your story. But that’s what I’m doing it today because your path to minimalism.

I feel like is really unique but also kind of universal in many ways in what you’ve gone through. So tell me more about that.

Julia Ubbenga (01:38)

Yeah, so I have not always been a minimalist. Pretty far from it actually. I’m an unlikely minimalist, you could say. And my story starts in childhood. I grew up close to my grandma and my grandma loved to shop. She would buy things whether she needed it or not. It was her love language to give people gifts, to give me gifts. And so we’d stroll the malls together and I I soon learned that shopping was fun. It was a way to feel good. It was a way not to feel bad to kind of cover up hard feelings.

And so I carried this mindset with me into my twenties. I started making money. I started spending money and pretty soon I had all this stuff and $40,000 worth of consumer debt. Yeah. So when I thought about this debt, I felt bad, but when I felt bad, I’d go buy something new because that’s what I thought would make me feel good and make me feel happy. And so this cycle, it continued up until the time our second daughter was born. And I was working outside the home as a speech language pathologist at the time.

Kathi Lipp (02:28)

You

Julia Ubbenga (02:37)

but I’d always wanted to stay home with our kids. So that was my dream to be a stay at home mom. And my husband got a promotion at the time and I could stay home. I was so excited, but I had this really idyllic vision of what stay at home mom life would be like. thought, yeah, I thought my daughters and I would be snuggled on the couch, reading Little House on the Prairie, would be giggling over tea parties. In my mind, it was just going to be great. Well, a couple of weeks into the stay at home mom gig, I would not even called myself a stay at home mom. I would have said,

Kathi Lipp (02:51)

right?

Julia Ubbenga (03:07)

A full-time stuff manager would have been a better title because Kathi, that is what I did. I was constantly looking for things and picking things up and cleaning things, tripping over things that I hadn’t picked up yet. It was just all consuming. was exhausted. I was stressed. I couldn’t really be present to the people around me. Like I was there, but I wasn’t really there as distracted and just, I was overwhelmed. So.

Kathi Lipp (03:13)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Julia Ubbenga (03:33)

A couple months into living this way, I was diagnosed with postpartum depression. And I remember this morning where I was up in the nursery in the recliner chair. I was feeding our baby and I was talking with God, really pleading with God. was like, God, what is going on here? This isn’t what I signed up for. Something needs to change. And I was reading the Bible and a couple of verses from Luke chapter 12. They just jumped off the page at me and they said, your life.

Kathi Lipp (03:39)

?

Julia Ubbenga (04:02)

does not consist of possessions, be rich in what matters. And so I paused right there and I asked myself, was I rich in what mattered? Was I rich in relationships, time for a faith life, time for hobbies that I loved? And no, the answer was absolutely not, I wasn’t. So that planted the seed that something in my life in the area of possessions needed to change. But I didn’t know what, I didn’t know where to go from there. And that same week, I had a therapy appointment.

And at the end of the session, just as I was leaving, the therapist said, Julia, have you ever heard of minimalism? I’m like, you mean houses with white walls and next to nothing in them. And she’s like, no, there’s more to it than that. Look into it. I think you might be interested. So I was curious and I did a Google search there in the car just right after the session and realized that there’s a lot of resources about minimalism. So I started reading books and blogs and listening to podcasts about it. And this idea.

that I didn’t need all this stuff to be happy. And in fact, I’d be a whole lot happier with less of it because then I’d have more time and energy to focus on who and what mattered. It was a mindset shift that was life-changing. And it finally gave me a vision of how to get out from under all this stress and anxiety that I was feeling at the time. So I went all in on minimalism. I started a blog at the time. I called it Rich in What Matters after the Bible verse that spoke to me.

And we let go of 75 % of our stuff over the course of the first year. And then we downsized to an apartment home and got rid of our consumer debt. We built our own intentionally smaller new home. And so yeah, we’ve been living as a minimalist family for six years now, and we have five kids ages 11, seven, four, three, and three months. And yeah, and now I have this book that I’ve written, Declutter Your Heart in Your Home, How a Minimalist Life Yields Maximum Joy.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)

Wow.

Julia Ubbenga (05:52)

Because I want to give other people the tools to live less stuff, to live a lighter life if they feel called to do that.

Kathi Lipp (06:00)

Okay, first of all, birthing a baby in a book at the same time, I give you major props, my friends. I think that there are a lot of people out there who say, this sounds amazing. To not be dealing with my stuff all the time, to not be shuffling it from one room to another, to not spend my entire life picking up and putting away and all of that.

Julia Ubbenga (06:06)

Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)

What does practical minimalism actually look like in everyday life? What can you give me like one or two practices or mindset shifts that have made the biggest impact for you?

Julia Ubbenga (06:39)

Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, I think that minimalism itself is misunderstood, that it’s about more than just your stuff. So if we’re talking mindset, minimalism is just a tool to live your life with intention. And so it’s about letting go of the things in your life that don’t matter, to make space in your life for the things that do matter. And that does apply to your possessions, but it also applies to your calendar commitments, to your self-talk thoughts, your thought patterns.

So it’s you’re constantly discerning what are you letting into your life? And then if it’s not supporting your life, it’s not aligned with your values, if it’s not serving you, you’re letting it go. And so practically this would look like keeping a calendar that doesn’t have half-hearted commitments on it. ? It would also just mean you’re constantly looking around at your things in your home wondering, this still serving me? Is this distracting me from my present life?

? you know, what matters to me from my kids, from my spouse, is it distracting me? Is it taking my time and my energy and attention? Or is it helping me better connect with them? So I think it’s really just you’re kind of the gatekeeper of your home and your world and just discerning what you let into it.

Kathi Lipp (07:49)

Yeah, I would say as I am on this journey, because it will always be a journey for me. I’m never going to be in a finished space, but this spot where I am more comfortable in my home than I’ve ever been before, but what I’m also noticing is, I don’t know that I’ll ever be a minimalist, but it’s the same questions. Is this still serving me? And I think we all have different levels of

Julia Ubbenga (07:56)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)

the amount of stuff around us that makes us comfortable or more importantly uncomfortable at you know the the not disease like a sickness but the dis-ease in our lives because I feel like I’m being suffocated or I can’t find what I need. I would love to know from you what was the overwhelming feeling before you started on this minimalist path?

and contrast that with what does it feel like now. When you wake up in the morning and you look around, what was the feeling you had before and what is it now?

Julia Ubbenga (09:01)

That’s a great question. So I think that before minimalism when I’d wake up the more in the morning and look around I Felt like the home had the upper hand like I would look at a mess and I was like I have no idea when I am going to find the time to even start taking care of that and I would feel stressed and I would feel anxious even ? and So now when I look around and I see a mess definitely we have messes We have five kids, but I see the messes and they’re manageable. They’re easily tidied

Kathi Lipp (09:26)

Right.

Julia Ubbenga (09:30)

They don’t have the upper hand. don’t spark that same feeling of overwhelm in me. It’s more of a mindset shift of where, ? okay, there’s a mess there and I can take care of that in five minutes later when I’m done playing with my kids. And so, yeah, so it’s just this idea that you are feeling good in your home. You’re not overwhelmed by your home and that just helps you become more present to the people around you in your home.

Kathi Lipp (09:42)

Yeah.

Guys, even if your goal isn’t to be a minimalist, what I love about this book is it will help you develop a minimalist mindset that says, I don’t have to keep things out of fear, guilt, or shame. I don’t have to keep things because somebody gave them to me. And here’s what I love. You talk about your grandmother with such love and respect that you knew that that was her love language. And you can also say,

I received that from my grandmother, but I don’t have to carry it forward. And I love that. Julia, I would love, as we are wrapping up here, one or two practical things that somebody can do today to start developing this mindset. Is it a practice? ? What is it that would help somebody get started with this today?

Julia Ubbenga (10:49)

Well, a super practical thing that I love is just getting a quick decluttering win and going and clearing off the front of your fridge or maybe just keeping one or two of your favorite things on it. And the reason I say go tackle the front of your fridge is because there’s a study done at UCLA and in it they found that the average fridge in a home has 52 items on it. And there was a connection between the amount of stuff on a fridge and the amount of clutter in a home. So if your goal is to live a clutter free life,

then clear off that front of your fridge, something you see very often, and you’ll see that. And that can be a reminder that can help you shift your mindset that, hey, I am not gonna live in a cluttered home anymore. I see that clear fridge and I am going to live a clutter-free life.

Kathi Lipp (11:35)

Julia, I love that you and I referenced the same UCLA study. Have you read that book? I love that book so much. Guys, if you don’t know what we’re talking about, I can’t remember the name of the book. Maybe you do. ? If you don’t, it’s okay. I will put it in the show notes. But they went and lived basically with dozens and dozens of families to study clutter in homes around the LA area mostly.

Julia Ubbenga (11:40)

Yes, it’s a great one. Yes, I have it at home. Me too.

hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:06)

And ? first of all, if you read that book, you’re going to realize you are not weird, you are normal. I don’t care how much clutter you have in your home. If you are below hoarder, you are normal. But also talking about cortisone levels in women who live with a lot of stuff. And Julia, I know for me, and I can already tell from speaking with you that our cortisone levels changed as we decluttered.

I don’t have any scientific proof of that, but the feeling of not being on edge all the time is life changing, isn’t it?

Julia Ubbenga (12:40)

Yes.

It is life-changing. is. Yeah. I think the book is called life at home in the 21st century. Does that ring a bell? Yeah. It just came to me. Yeah. And it is such a life-changing experience to not being on, not to be on edge in your home all the time. And I think that actually makes your nervous system shift out of that fight or flight response that we get stuck in so much. And that has implications for our health, Kathi. mean, stress and nervous system dysregulation can lead to health problems. And so.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)

Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Julia Ubbenga (13:14)

It goes deeper than, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (13:14)

And

we discount those health dangers in women. We know about it for men, but heart disease and from stress is a huge factor for a lot of women. And so I love that we are having this conversation. And while you and I come at it from different levels, the heart is the same. We want you to be at peace in your home. And guys, ?

Julia Ubbenga (13:22)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:44)

? This is such a great read and it’s gonna be so if you found Julia inspirational and I know my listeners I know you found her inspirational today. You said I want a piece of that ? Guys, you know this segment things that have earned a space in my clutter free home And this book has declutter your heart and your home how to how a minimalist life yields maximum joy We’ll have a link in our show notes

Julia thanks for being on today. This this book is a treasure. I’m gonna read it again I’m gonna pass it along to a friend who I know also needs to hear your words. I’m so grateful for you today

Julia Ubbenga (14:23)

Thank you so much for having me on, Kathi. It was a fun conversation.

Kathi Lipp (14:26)

And friends, I’m just so grateful you’ve been here today. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#685 – Stuck and Overwhelmed? The Real Reason Your Clutter Won’t Budge

Sep 2, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Restore, tips and ideas

Are you worn out from battling clutter and not seeing the progress you’d hoped for? In this heartfelt episode, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo explore the reality of declutter fatigue and why, for so many women, the journey can feel never-ending. If you’re feeling stuck,...

#684 – Decluttering for Real Life: Simple Steps for Busy, Overwhelmed Women

Aug 26, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Is your clutter making a comeback…again? You tidy up, you declutter, but somehow, all those piles and projects sneak right back into your life. If you’ve ever felt defeated when the mess keeps resurfacing, this episode will speak right to your heart. Join Kathi and...

#683 – Declutter Your Bathroom Sink Space (Even With Zero Storage!)

Aug 19, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Tired of opening your bathroom cabinets only to find chaos staring back at you? You're not alone. In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi teams up with decluttering expert Tonya Kubo to tackle one of the most frustrating spaces in many homes: the bathroom sink...

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jun 24, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

Listen Now

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year. They share personal insights, practical strategies for overcoming sentimental and overwhelming clutter, and success stories from the Clutter Free for Life community. Whether you’re struggling with where to start or how to ensure everyone in the household is on the same page, Kathi and Tonya provide a wealth of support and encouragement. Plus, hear how Clutter Free for Life can help keep you on track with ongoing support and resources. Listen in and start your decluttering journey today.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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FYI: Some product links may be affiliate links. If you buy, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for your support!

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Meet Our Guest

Rachael Adams

Rachael was once a stay-at-home who struggled to believe that her life was truly significant. She was told her work was important, but in a sea of mundane tasks, it certainly didn’t feel true.

But then, God started to work in her life.

She began to find fulfillment, significance, and purpose. Not because her circumstances changed, but because her heart did.

Now every week on her podcast, she shares the encouraging and inspiring stories of other women who are dedicated to living out their faith in God and believing their offering matters.

Find Rachael and what’s shes up to here!

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my clutter comrade. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)

Hey Kathi!

Kathi Lipp (00:26)

Guys I Okay. So let me ask you this Tonya When do you attack your clutter most deeply? ? I have noticed that for me. I I have a little bit more bandwidth in the summer and When it gets really hot here, I don’t want to go outside So I try to find indoor projects like my my garage never gets decluttered in the summer, but every other room does

Tonya Kubo (00:53)

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (00:56)

So, but I, you and I live very different lives. So how about you?

Tonya Kubo (01:01)

Well, it’s the same for me, but for different reasons, right? So my kids are home during the summer and Brian, he teaches in June, but he doesn’t teach in July. And so we really do a deep dive on our decluttering when we’re both home, because as you know, we both have cluttery issues or cluttery habits, but they’re different cluttery habits, which means that we have a much bigger clutter issue. So I find it’s easier.

Kathi Lipp (01:16)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (01:28)

take a deeper dive when we’re both here so that we can both address our individual perspectives on clutter.

Kathi Lipp (01:34)

You know, I don’t know that I know the answer to this question, even after we’ve probably done at least 100 episodes together. ? But I don’t think I know the answer to this question. ? Did Brian grow up in cluttery circumstances or very neat? Or is this not something we should talk about? I don’t know.

Tonya Kubo (01:55)

So I’m not sure that Brian’s memories or perspectives on his upbringing would match outside perspectives. So Brian would tell you, no, he did not grow up in a cluttery environment at all. However, when he points to an area and says, well, this is how my house was growing up, I would label that area as clutter.

Kathi Lipp (02:08)

Mm-hmm.

Interesting. So, okay, not to be like, I don’t mean to have you laying on the couch analyzing, but when you say that you guys have different cluttery issues, how would you summarize that?

Tonya Kubo (02:29)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so, well, he’s much more of a sentimental clutter person than I am. And part of that is access, right? Because my mother was a hoarder, I don’t have very much stuff from my childhood, right? It rotted in her house. So I don’t have stuff from childhood. I don’t have stuff from middle school, right? He does, because his stuff was all kept in much better condition.

Kathi Lipp (02:38)

Mmm.

Right. Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (02:58)

So, and he is very attached to a lot of that stuff. Like he still has, he is the kid who did want all of his awards from grade school. Like we hear from our members, know, they’ve saved all this stuff for their kids and their kids didn’t want it. No, he did want it. He does enjoy having it. So he has a greater volume of sentimental clutter, or sentimental items, I should say, than I do. And both of us, you know, come from that time when printing pictures was very expensive.

Kathi Lipp (03:19)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (03:27)

So both of us hesitate to throw away printed pictures, even if they’re bad printed pictures, but back to Access, he has a much larger storage of printed photos than I do just because I didn’t have any. So he’s more sentimental. For me, my clutter, what I have discovered is much more about overwhelm.

Kathi Lipp (03:34)

Yeah.

Mmm, okay. So, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, how does that manifest?

Tonya Kubo (03:53)

So

for me, things just get out of hand when I’m working long hours, when we’re out of the house a lot and I’m not doing the daily maintenance. I do a lot of, just put this here for now and it piles up. But when I go to address that area, it’s not like, the area is up to my nose and I wanna keep the stuff that’s up to my mouth.

Kathi Lipp (04:06)

Mm-hmm.

Mm, okay.

Tonya Kubo (04:20)

Right? It’s like

when I go through the area that’s up to my nose, it’s all trash or recycling.

Kathi Lipp (04:25)

Yeah.

Okay. So now who in the family, because there’s one of these people in every family, who is the one who’s like, okay, that’s it. We’re cleaning everything out. We’re taking, you know, all weekend. Like, this is it. We’re going to do it. Is that either of you? No. Interesting.

Tonya Kubo (04:45)

No. No. Maybe that’s the problem.

Maybe we need that person in our house.

Kathi Lipp (04:55)

Maybe maybe you need to invite somebody else into you need a great aunt who’s gonna boss you around But you guys have done big decluttering projects before

Tonya Kubo (05:00)

you

Same we don’t, but there’s not one of us who is, I guess it’s my perception of the question, right? So neither of us are the type of people who say, that’s it, tomorrow we’re clearing the calendar and nobody is going to do anything except for this one thing. We are both people who will say, okay, this is out of hand, let’s look at the calendar, when would be a good day to tackle this? Okay, so for instance, Abby had a birthday party last Saturday.

Kathi Lipp (05:12)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (05:34)

And

Brian was just like, just so you know, while you and Abby are gone, I am going to be doing these decluttering projects. So text me when you’re on your way home so that I can wrap that up.

Kathi Lipp (05:43)

?

Oh, nice. Because I, I know that one of the how do I know you’re a cluttery person? That I’m going to attack this, it’s going to happen. And that way, our lives are going to get better. And I think one of the things that are, you know, especially people in our free group who haven’t really been through, let’s just call it our indoctrination, that’s the nicest way of saying it.

Tonya Kubo (06:06)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:19)

? They think if I can clean this out once it’s going to stay that way I’m going to be naturally motivated to keep up on it and you know, it was Cheri Gregory who said clutter is never one and done and I love that quote because I this is back when we were writing when I was wearing clutter free we were writing overwhelm ? You know, it’s never one and done. You have to you have to keep

up on this. And I know that a lot of our listeners are waiting for the perfect time to declutter. And I am going to be 58 in two days. Never once in my entire life is like, ? this is the perfect time that I am motivated. There is time on the calendar. I have energy. I have a plan. I know what to do. Like that has never once happened. And so

If your clutter keeps coming back, it’s really important to me that you understand ? that one, you are not broken and you maybe haven’t either had the right system or the right support or either. I think that much of our clutter battle is we are working, we feel like

This should be easy. We should know what we’re doing. We should, we should, we should. Or ? everybody in my family should be pulling in the same direction. We all want the same thing. I don’t think our families want the same thing. Oftentimes they want to be left alone so that they can be on their phone watching YouTube videos. Like that, that doesn’t sound like a half bad way of spending 45 minutes to me either. And so

For the people who don’t know how to do this naturally, which I think is very few of us, studies show that 60 % of women in the United States say clutter is an issue for them. Like it’s a big issue for them. ? For those of you who need that accountability, support, training, ? we do have a ? sale coming up.

Tonya Kubo (08:29)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:42)

for clutter free for life. And this this sales a little different. I well, it’s the end of an era. Let me just say that it’s an end of the era. Can you explain that Tonya?

Tonya Kubo (08:53)

Yeah, and the sale is actually going on right now. But the end of the era. Clutterfree for Life started back in 2019. It’s hard to believe. I feel like I was not alive before the pandemic. That is how I truly feel. I feel like I was born. I was birthed in the middle of the pandemic and my memory doesn’t go much farther back. and in 2020, you know, is when we because we piloted it and then

Kathi Lipp (09:09)

I understand.

Tonya Kubo (09:22)

Everybody was like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. And we’re like, right? Right. This is awesome. And you were like, hey, like we know stuff. This is good stuff. So in 2020, you know, we kind of settled on our pricing. And so it’s $299 a year, $24.99 a month. And then once a year, we put it on sale for $118. And so it’s been the sale price has been $118 a year every December since 2020. And unfortunately, nothing.

Kathi Lipp (09:30)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (09:51)

has stayed the same price since 2020. So yeah, so we’re gonna have to raise the price this year. And you know, I was the person who did the math and said, Kathi, we gotta do this. And you said, no, we don’t. And I said, but no, really. And you said, but no, really. And so where we’ve landed is…

Kathi Lipp (09:53)

I know. I know.

I just say, Roger and Tenneil

here’s the thing I know yes they do they do I’m a nice person but I also don’t want to drop the quality of the program and so it had to be either we raised the price a little bit or we dropped the quality a lot and I just wasn’t comfortable with that so here we are

Tonya Kubo (10:19)

Nobody needs to know that!

be real, right? You have made some, like in our internal discussions, you’ve made some really good points, right? Which is $118 a year as a sale price when it’s $299 the rest of the year, feels really, really good to our community, right? It’s a 60 % discount. That feels really good. ? The fact that we’ve only put it on sale

Kathi Lipp (10:53)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:01)

that deeply once a year allows people to plan and to budget and to look forward to the sale break. They get to make a very strategic, thoughtful decision. ? And when you shared that, all of us went, you know what? mean, because ultimately what you said is that’s all fine and good, but we can’t just drop that on people when they’ve been expecting a big 60 % off sale in December. And so what we’re doing is we’re honoring one last hurrah.

at $118 a year on sale right now.

Kathi Lipp (11:30)

Mm-hmm.

And let me tell you why I’m excited about this for summer because I do feel like Summer gives us some options that the rest of the year doesn’t When it comes to decluttering so first of all the days are longer. I don’t know about you Tonya Well, I do know a little bit about you in the winter. I want to be in bed at 430 like I I As it gets darker and I know you’re in early to bed not

necessarily early to sleep all the time, but early to bed. I was just on a podcast with Valerie Burton, who’s the psychologist, and I said, I love sleep. I think about like at, at, you know, 430 in the afternoon, thinking I can crawl into bed in three hours. Like, nothing brings me such joy to know that I can get into the sheets. I can have moose with me, I can have my book or my phone or my tea.

Like it just makes me so happy. But in the summer, I stay up later. We eat dinner later because we’re trying to take advantage of all the sunshine. And so, and I feel a little ridiculous going, getting into bed when it’s still bright, shiny out. But so I think we have longer times we can work with that energy. And then ? unless it’s getting too hot, we have better weather for dump runs, donation drop-offs.

Even a yard sale or two you can start planning those for as the summer is winding down and getting a little cooler I didn’t know this but I was looking at some statistics real recently and ? Thrift stores I would think that they’d get the most of their traffic around Christmas because you know two things made me think that one was because You know more people are dropping off after Christmas

Tonya Kubo (13:16)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:27)

So there would be a lot, and I think also people, some people shop secondhand for Christmas. But it turns out thrift stores get their highest amount of traffic in the summer. So you know that if you’re dropping things off, can take advantage of it. ? Kids and clutter. Now I don’t have kids living at home. I do have kids coming this weekend and I am not making them go through their stuff while they’re here because.

Tonya Kubo (13:32)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:54)

if TikTok has taught me anything is that kids will make fun of you if you try to make them go through their stuff when they’re home. So I’m like, I’m just gonna pitch it all. But your kids are home. Does that help or hurt? Or yes? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:09)

Yes.

But here’s what I will tell you. What I have discovered is it hurts if you don’t have a plan. Right. So part of the thing that I do, right, because I’m on this mission to not raise hoarders because my mom was a hoarder. Right. And I just don’t want that generational curse to be repeated. So we spent the month of May really setting expectations of what summer was going to look like. And Brian ? has been

Kathi Lipp (14:25)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (14:39)

And this is something we haven’t talked about. We should actually have an episode on this. But Brian has been listening to a lot of podcasts that have talked about people who lost their homes in the LA fires. And one thing that has really hit him is when people talk about what they don’t miss. And so, you know, back to his connections with sentimental clutter, it’s really got him thinking about everything very differently.

Kathi Lipp (14:49)

yeah.

Mmm, it’s so true.

Tonya Kubo (15:05)

And so, you we set some expectations with the girls. It’s like, okay, so we’re the house is not working for us right now. And we’re in a difference in phases. And you know this, we talked about this around Christmas time. know, Abby is 11 or she’ll be 11. And this is the year where at school they transitioned to chapter books only.

Kathi Lipp (15:28)

Mm, okay.

Tonya Kubo (15:29)

which means

we have now reached the stage where we don’t need picture books at home. And we’re not the kind of people that are saving books for our grandchildren. Almost all of the books we have in this house were hand-me-downs from other people whose kids had graduated out of them. So we’re seeing that now as she’s shifting, she’ll be in fifth grade, there’s a lot of those childhood toys and things that we don’t need to have anymore. And so we just set the stage, this is gonna be a great time for us to sort of switch up the house

Kathi Lipp (15:33)

Mm-hmm.

No.

Hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:58)

toward teenage years. And the girls were on board with that and they entered into summer knowing that they were going to have an active role.

Kathi Lipp (16:00)

Yeah.

love that reframing, giving them something to look forward to, to say, Hey, we’re growing out of this phase, let’s adjust our lives. Never really heard it talked about like that. And I think that’s really, really, that gives them something to look forward to, it helps them embrace a new phase in life. I love that. ? I think another thing is, you know, you may have some more time in summer, depending on what your family situation is.

but we also tend to have more time at home during the holidays. But holidays can be very triggering when it comes to clutter. It’s, don’t, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (16:42)

Can I talk about this, Kathi? Because I have been married to Mr. Kubo now for 16 years. And of those 16 years, he has been a teacher for roughly 13 of those years. And every year, the house, because the house gets kind of cuckoo in the fall, and it’s like November, it’s right after Thanksgiving break where he starts telling me how all we have to do is make it to winter break and he’s going to do all these things.

Kathi Lipp (16:45)

Of course you can!

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:11)

And let me just say that no teacher has any energy from winter break during winter break, right? Because that fall period is so insane for them. So I’ve spent a good 13 Christmases thinking that that was going to be a great time to get our house decluttered. It has never been a great time ever, ever.

Kathi Lipp (17:11)

Okay.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right

and I think you know whether it’s a teacher or you’re just a civilian That it’s a tough time to try to think about that now I will say the one exception is I really do think after Christmas the idea of like a boxing day is a beautiful thing like Okay, I got you know these three new t-shirts are there six t-shirts I can get rid of now those kind of things. I think that’s wonderful, but

Tonya Kubo (17:41)

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Kathi Lipp (18:00)

trying to create a deep declaim during the holidays just doesn’t seem very fabulous.

Tonya Kubo (18:05)

Mm-hmm.

Well, and that’s also part of it, Is going into the holidays, right? The days before Christmas kind of feels too late almost because you’ve got so much that’s coming into your home at that time, right? You’re bringing in more food for holiday prep. You’re buying decorations or gifts that you’re gonna give away. I mean, there’s just a lot of stuff that ends up piling up. ? So yeah, so I find that summer for us is just a little bit more relaxed.

Kathi Lipp (18:18)

Yes.

Yeah, I love that. Okay. And this is also a good chance to, I feel like, get prepped for fall. Fall feels like the beginning of the year to me, and then it’s just like vroom until, you know, after Christmas. And so if you can lay the foundation, I think that that’s really, really helpful. ? Okay, so we…

Tonya Kubo (18:53)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)

If you’re thinking about Clutter Free for Life, we have a couple of members who have made real changes. And Tonya, I’m going to ask you to talk about some of these people. Tell us a little bit about the journey of Jackie. ? You can either read or quote, or you can tell us what you know, but I would love to hear that.

Tonya Kubo (19:11)

Mm-hmm.

?

Oh, well, OK. So I will say this about everybody. So I will because I want to be like, oh, Jackie’s my favorite. But everybody is my favorite in one way or another way. But, you know, Jackie is somebody who believes very strongly in sustainability. And so because she believes so strongly in sustainability, she is one of those people who sees life in everything. And she hates seeing stuff go to landfills. And so that led her to sort of.

being this archivist of all things. And so, Jackie got to the point though where she did recognize she just didn’t have any more real estate. There was no more available space in her home. And she had been listening to the podcast for several years. And she admits that when she started listening to the podcast, she wasn’t so sure about the idea of just letting things land where they’re supposed to. That was something that you had mentioned years ago.

about you have to release things and just trust God will make sure that they get to the right place. She didn’t really have that level of trust. But then, after listening to the podcast for a while, she was just like, well, maybe, but she couldn’t quite figure out how. And so when she joined the program, she was pretty quiet. She didn’t really make herself known the first year or so, but a couple of years ago, we started talking and she really started decluttering in earnest. Now,

I will say when she started, she was so overwhelmed. She didn’t know where to start. Right. So part of it was just carving out a starting place. But, you know, just recently, I don’t have the exact number, but I want to say she got rid of like 1200 items in a week.

Kathi Lipp (20:59)

That’s incredible. It’s incredible. That’s amazing. And I know she is such a creative person. She does big, big projects, but still that, that is insane. I, I am so proud of the progress she went from not being able to have anybody over to her house now to being able to have people in her house without embarrassment. That that’s huge.

Tonya Kubo (21:01)

Like, weak, Kathi.

Well, she gets to have

her granddaughter there. That’s the big thing for her. That was her major motivation. That’s what pushed her over is wanting to be able to spend days with her granddaughter and feel like her granddaughter was safe.

Kathi Lipp (21:25)

Yes.

Yeah, because yeah, I mean, just as a potential grandparent at some point in my life, I know how unsafe my house is right now. My house is built for adults. So to get it over that threshold with the stuff and everything, that’s huge. Okay, tell me about Carrie.

Tonya Kubo (21:46)

Mm-hmm.

You should talk about Carrie. Carrie is delightful. Yes. So Carrie is somebody who, ? know, for them, they were living in kind of a smallish space, but they had storage units. And Carrie’s first step was to focus on the home, like on her actual home space where she lived. But then the monthly cost of the storage units started to eat at her.

Kathi Lipp (21:57)

I love Carrie. Yes, Carrie’s wonderful.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:22)

So last year, we worked together and she was able to release one of two storage units. Now the other storage unit, she’s discovered as a necessity. That’s housing some things that doesn’t make sense to have at the house, but they do need to keep. And so she released one whole storage unit, which was huge, but she has gotten, I think she is at 9,000 items in two years. And part of why we know this is because Carrie has such a heart.

Kathi Lipp (22:39)

Amazing.

That’s incredible.

Tonya Kubo (22:49)

for everybody and she’s so generous. She wants everybody to know the good, bad and ugly of her journey because she knows how helpful it was when people shared their struggles as well. And so part of why we have such a beautiful story with her is because she’s made it so transparent for us.

Kathi Lipp (22:55)

Mm hmm. Yeah.

She’s she’s so generous of heart. She really is and then Kathi not me But we have other good Kathi’s in our group We do have a lot of Kathi’s it’s a very 60s name. I’m assuming that’s where most of them come from. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (23:14)

Not you, Kathi ? we have actually a lot of Kathi’s in our group. It is a very, maybe,

maybe that’s it. So yeah, so, you know what I love about Kathi is she doesn’t quit. So Kathi is a founding member. So she’s been there for going on six years now. And…

She is the prime example of the person who’s like, this year is the year we’re gonna do it. And then life slaps her upside the head from every possible direction. And so she has been going like gangbusters and like, this is the year I’m finally making headway. And then something has happened and she has had to just change her focus for several months at a time. But the thing with Kathi is she never quits. She keeps moving forward. And what I love is she’ll reach out to me like, I won’t hear from her sometimes for six months, seven months.

Kathi Lipp (23:49)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (24:09)

And she’ll say, just want you to know I haven’t given up yet. And I just went through one box. It’s the only box I’ve been able to go through all month, but it’s a box that I’ve gone through. And for Kathi, you know, the big lesson that she has taught me, and I, you know, I don’t know what she would say that she has learned specifically, but the lesson that she has taught me is that community is everything.

Kathi Lipp (24:15)

Mmm.

Tonya Kubo (24:35)

because what has made an impact for her is initially after a period of not being able to focus on her clutter, she’s come back in and she’s just been very ashamed and apologetic with everybody. Like, I have no excuse. I’ve been part of this community since this long and why am I still dealing with this? And people would just be like, yeah, no, we get it. We have good days. We have bad days too, but we keep coming. And the fact that she would keep showing up. And so now she’s just like, you know what, what I love is I tell people,

Kathi Lipp (24:57)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (25:04)

that I’m embarrassed and all of them tell me all the reasons why I don’t need to be embarrassed and that automatically lifts me from the shame.

Kathi Lipp (25:12)

Mmm. Yeah, all three of these women and so many people in clutter free for life are just a gift and their encouragement and you know how I talk about Clutter free people are the meanest people in the world, but only to themselves ? We’re starting to lift some of that as well and people are being kinder to themselves, too Okay, so let me just tell you Clutter free for life is a very different group. It’s ongoing support ?

Tonya Kubo (25:28)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:39)

It is not a one and done, you take this one class and you’re done, no. And so every month we give you a monthly action plan that you can adapt to your season of life. We have weekly coaching calls. Now, ? let me just say, we have four a month. If it’s the fifth week of the month, there’s not a call. We just wanna give you that time back so you can go do something. But there are check-ins in this private community, so.

If this is a struggle for you to talk about, this is a really safe place. There’s a big library of resources. So if you’re struggling with something in particular, ? you can find the resource on that. And then every spring we have our Abundant Home Conference, which is amazing. And this year we’re offering something a little bit different. Some people are like, well, I need more one-on-one. So if you are interested in a…

coaching call with me. There’s an option for that. It’s an additional charge, but ? we want to help you if you need something that you need to talk over to break through. finally, the rate you join at, $118, is the rate you keep forever. So if you keep renewing, you’re going to be at $118 forever, even when we raise the price. ? We’re not going to offer this price again. And so if this is something you’re interested in, come check it out. ?

If you visit Kathi, so that’s k-a-t-h-i dot link slash c-f-l, and we’ll put that in the show notes. You can go sign up over there and ? we will be happy to answer all your questions. Tonya, did I miss anything?

Tonya Kubo (27:20)

No, you covered it all. ? and also, I mean, have awesome people. They’re just awesome. And you totally want to hang out with them.

Kathi Lipp (27:26)

The best the best the best the

best Okay, friends. We would love to see you in there It They’re favorite people in the world and they’ll be your favorite people in the world, too

Kathi Lipp (00:00)

Hey friends, welcome back to Clutterfree Academy and today I am thrilled to welcome a friend, fellow author, fellow podcaster. She’s all things amazing. Her name is Rachel Adams.

And we are welcoming her back to our things that have earned a place in my clutter free home segment. And let me tell you, this devotional has done it. ? This is her beautiful new book, Everyday Prayers for Love, learning to love God, others, and even yourself. Rachel, welcome to Clutter Free Academy.

Rachael Adams (00:33)

Well, Kathi, thank you. It’s an honor to be here. And I’m just thrilled that I’ve earned a spot in your clutter free home.

Kathi Lipp (00:39)

You know, so you guys let me tell you how what what my book like processes I was telling Rachel this earlier. Yes, I, I get sent a lot of books and a lot of them are not. I’m sure you do too as a podcaster and a lot of them are things that one I might not you know, I wouldn’t read and two, they’re not appropriate for the podcast. So I donate a lot of books.

Rachael Adams (00:56)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:06)

But when I find something I love, especially a devotional, and I’m pretty much a one-time devotional girl, that’s how I roll. And I don’t write in my books because, I don’t know, it’s something from being in fourth grade and getting yelled at for writing in a book. So I have my little journal, but I’m going through your devotional right now. And what I’m doing is I’m keeping notes in my journal. But then what I do is I either pass this on

Rachael Adams (01:21)

I’m

Kathi Lipp (01:36)

to somebody who comes to a retreat at our house. And I asked them, hey, if you like it, please share about it on social media because that’s the best way to say thank you to an author. Or I have a couple of friends who financially books are not, they’re a luxury, not a necessity. And so they are really grateful. So I’m excited to finish this up so I can give it on to somebody else. And you’re a tremendous writer. I just, I wanna.

talk to you about a moment that sparked this whole journey for you when you saw a love offering envelope at church. Can you talk a little bit about what that moment was and what it meant to you and how that kind of started you on this journey to this book?

Rachael Adams (02:21)

Well, thank you for spreading the love. So that’s what the whole message is about. So you’re doing it so well. So that really this happened about a decade ago. I attend a pretty traditional church and in front of me was a love offering envelope in the pew. And in that moment, I sense the Lord whispered to my heart, Rachel, you are my love offering. I’ve given you my love. And how are you going to give my love to the world around you?

Kathi Lipp (02:23)

Yes, exactly.

Hmm.

Rachael Adams (02:47)

And in essence, how are you going to live out the greatest commandment to love the Lord God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself? But I honestly struggle with some insecurity and inadequacy and endowed the gifts that God has given me and the talents that he’s given me. So in that moment, I thought, you know, I don’t know how I’m living out my faith in ordinary, everyday, practical ways. My life feels pretty insignificant, honestly. And am I doing this?

Kathi Lipp (02:53)

you

Rachael Adams (03:14)

And so I just started having conversations with family and friends and realized I wasn’t the only one struggling with this tension. And so one specific friend that I was having a conversation with, said, Rachel, it’d be neat to start to record these conversations. And so I thought, okay, so downloaded a free podcast app and seven years later, here I am. So there was no master plan. Well, the heavenly father’s master plan, maybe, but not mine, just one conversation at a time.

Kathi Lipp (03:20)

Yeah.

Bye.

Rachael Adams (03:42)

Gosh, it’s been a gift to get to have people like you on the show and ? just meet new friends and to be inspired by the ways that they’re living out their faith in their everyday lives.

Kathi Lipp (03:54)

There are a lot of devotionals on God’s love and I have read many of them. enjoy what why do you think this one is for right now? Because what one thing that you just said is you’re looking for ways to live out God’s love and I I’m sure there have been other times in my life in history but

I don’t know for something right now, it feels so critical. ? Not just because we want to show God’s love, but also because the world is in deep need. And so why this devotion? Why now? And how are some of the ways that you are seeing your readers live out that love?

Rachael Adams (04:43)

Yeah, for such a time as this, right? I really do believe it was timely when it released. We were right on the tails of the election. ? you know, just when the reality is we look around at our neighbors and we’re not going to always believe the same way or have the same morals or the same values or the same likes and preferences. And so, and to your point, the world needs God’s love. There are so many natural disasters. There are so many people far from Him.

Kathi Lipp (04:45)

Yeah

Rachael Adams (05:13)

And so I think every single person that we come into contact with has some kind of need. And we are God’s hands and feet. Some of Jesus’s last words were to love one another and that we would be known as His disciples by our love. So that should be our trait that people experience when they encounter us. And so I really do feel like this is a timely and a timeless message.

something that we want to live out. I pray that through these words, it just encourages people that not to overcomplicate what God intended to be simple. It really is just a smile, a hello, kind text, sharing a meal, an invitation. It’s in much smaller ways that we can make a significant impact than we think.

Kathi Lipp (05:54)

Yeah, you know, it’s so interesting. I am on the sermon team from my church that I went to several years ago. We’ve moved since then, but I zoom in as we do these days. And we were talking about a sermon about wise love and how do you love with wisdom. And I was talking about how I am frustrated with many of my neighbors right now.

Like my neighbors, not just the people who live close to me, but the people that I know I’m supposed to love. And I’ve, I have found the only antidote besides prayer is going out and serving. And I think you’re exactly right. Like going out and saying, how can I help my community? How can I reach out to my neighbor? How can I reach out to, you know, the, community around me? It’s, it’s the only thing.

that brings peace to my heart because my heart is not naturally peaceful and ? it is spending time with God in his word, talking with him, but then putting that into action. can’t just, and that’s what I love about your book. It’s not just theory. It’s deeply practical. Can you share a favorite example of how love moves from prayer into action?

one of your favorite examples in there.

Rachael Adams (07:21)

Well, I just want to echo what you were just saying that we want to be hearers, not just hearers of God’s Word, but doers of God’s Word. that James, like he talks about that faith without works is dead. And I think when you’re talking about even loving our enemies or those that feel unlovable, that’s what Jesus did. Think about how he had Judas as one of his disciples and he washed his feet. He was serving him right before he died on the cross for him too. That while we’re still sinners, Christ died for us.

Kathi Lipp (07:24)

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Rachael Adams (07:50)

So apart from prayer and the Holy Spirit residing in us as believers, there’s no way that we can live out this greatest commandment without Him. And so I think one of my favorite ways, it just comes honestly from 1 Corinthians 13, four through eight to love is patient, love is kind. doesn’t envy, it doesn’t boast, it doesn’t keep a record of wrongs, et cetera. And so I think that those little characteristics, it’s verb, it’s action, it’s not,

a feeling and so we’re not always going to feel loving towards the people around us, but we’re going to choose. And so to answer your question, not long ago, I had a lot of people in my home and tensions were high and I was just stressed out to be honest and I didn’t feel like serving in that moment and everybody else was just enjoying their time and I was kind of feeling just… ?

Kathi Lipp (08:33)

Yeah.

Rachael Adams (08:40)

grumpy for lack of a better word at my role that day. And so I ended up, I just felt like the Holy Spirit just was speaking to my heart. Rachel, how would love act in this situation? Love would be patient. Love would be kind. Love wouldn’t envy it, boast, it wouldn’t be easily angered, et cetera. And so I feel like that’s a way that we can kind of regroup ourselves and serve and love anyway, again, through the Holy Spirit and His empowerment.

Kathi Lipp (09:02)

Yeah.

Yeah, I yes like that attitude change because people can feel it in the room can’t they they can absolutely feel it in the room. Yeah, so ? When people come on and I say who the who is this book for and they say everybody I’m like, no, our books are not for everybody Who is the woman right now? Who who this book what like that it would meet them exactly where they are. What’s her?

Rachael Adams (09:12)

Yes. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (09:37)

What’s her struggle today?

Rachael Adams (09:40)

I think her struggle is that she feels unlovable. She needs to know that she’s beloved by the God of the universe, that he adores her and delights in her and treasures her apart from anything that she does. That’s the key. We first, we love because he first loved us. So we have to accept his love first before we have anything of value to give. So it’s the woman doubting her own lovability, if that’s even a word. And that’s me.

Kathi Lipp (10:06)

Yeah. ? I have been there.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. I have a really practical question. How do you find time to read? How do you find time in your daily life? Because I know we are all struggling and I can I just say I think I’ve gotten stupider. As we have done social media and I struggle with sitting down and finding time to read. So I always love to ask that it’s really practical. But how do you find that?

How do you carve it out and create a rhythm?

Rachael Adams (10:39)

So I actually don’t sit down to read. I walk and listen to books. I’ve been trying to, based on atomic habits, pair things that I love with things that I don’t necessarily love as much. And so I try to get in my 10,000 steps a day. And so to pass that time, I’m also listening to something that is filling my mind as I’m trying to move my body.

Kathi Lipp (10:42)

?

Yes. Okay, yes.

Rachael Adams (11:07)

Because in this season of my life, I don’t have much time to just sit and just savor a book. I’d love to, I love doing that, especially in the summer or on the beach or whatever, but ? it doesn’t, my life doesn’t always lend itself to that right now.

Kathi Lipp (11:07)

Okay, and.

Yeah. Yeah.

And guys, if you’re not familiar with the book, Atomic Habits, it’s about pairing, exactly what you said, pairing habits that come very naturally to you or very, so which is the one that you struggle with? Are you one of these people who’s like, I love my 10,000 steps a day, it makes me so happy? Or are you pairing the book that you love with the habit that’s hard? Which is the hard habit for you?

Rachael Adams (11:45)

The hard habit is the walk. I do enjoy it and I’m always glad that I did it, but an hour a day, if I’m not doing anything, if I’m not listening to anything or watching anything, it can feel, or if I’m not talking with a friend, it can feel long if I’m just in my own head for that long. And so I would say that the reading is the pleasure and the walk becomes a pleasure too, but I need the extra stimulation to make it the hour.

Kathi Lipp (11:47)

Okay, good. Yeah.

Yeah, my goodness, I can’t.

Right. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

It’s so hard.

Yeah, it’s so hard to get out there. Okay, guys, you can find everyday prayers for love. ? Everywhere. mean, everywhere books are sold. So your big retailers, your your Barnes and Noble, you can find it everywhere. ? Can you just sign us off with a word of encouragement for the woman listening today who is struggling to feel that love?

Rachael Adams (12:39)

Yeah, absolutely. I would say that God has always been in pursuit of mankind from the very beginning. When you think about Adam and Eve and when they sinned and fell short of the glory of God, what did he do? He said, where are you? And he pursued their hearts and pursued relationship with them. And so he’s done that from the very beginning. then he sent his son Jesus, then he sent the Holy Spirit, and he’s coming back again in pursuit.

Kathi Lipp (12:58)

Yeah.

Rachael Adams (13:06)

God is pursuing your heart and he wants to be pursued by you too. And so just be intentional with that. There is so much of his love that the world needs. And so the prayer for us is to help to introduce other people so that they can come to know the God who loves them and is pursuing them as well.

Kathi Lipp (13:27)

love it. Rachel Adams, Everyday Prayers for Love. Thank you so much for being here today, Rachel. I so appreciate you. ? you are love. You are love. And friends, you are loved. You know how much I love you. You have been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Rachael Adams (13:35)

Thank you for making me feel loved, Kathi. I appreciate you having me on.

#685 – Stuck and Overwhelmed? The Real Reason Your Clutter Won’t Budge

Sep 2, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Restore, tips and ideas

Are you worn out from battling clutter and not seeing the progress you’d hoped for? In this heartfelt episode, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo explore the reality of declutter fatigue and why, for so many women, the journey can feel never-ending. If you’re feeling stuck,...

#684 – Decluttering for Real Life: Simple Steps for Busy, Overwhelmed Women

Aug 26, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Is your clutter making a comeback…again? You tidy up, you declutter, but somehow, all those piles and projects sneak right back into your life. If you’ve ever felt defeated when the mess keeps resurfacing, this episode will speak right to your heart. Join Kathi and...

#683 – Declutter Your Bathroom Sink Space (Even With Zero Storage!)

Aug 19, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Tired of opening your bathroom cabinets only to find chaos staring back at you? You're not alone. In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi teams up with decluttering expert Tonya Kubo to tackle one of the most frustrating spaces in many homes: the bathroom sink...

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jun 17, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Low Buy July, Podcast | 0 comments

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they’re moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing thinking, this conversation is for you.

They’ll cover:

The mindset behind Low Buy July and why it matters now more than ever

Four financial “levels” to help you decide what to do with the money you don’t spend

How a bug bite venom extractor earned its spot in Kathi’s house

What it means for something to truly earn a place in your life

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the queen of all things clutter. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)

Hey, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (00:26)

Okay, we, it’s my favorite holiday of the year that’s coming up. I’m so excited. I know for other people they’re looking forward to Independence Day or, know, I’m trying to think of other summery holidays, Memorial Day, those kind of things. But for me, it is a month long celebration of Low By July. It really is, it’s crazily one of my favorite times of year. ?

Tonya Kubo (00:32)

Yeah!

Kathi Lipp (00:55)

when we as a community over in Clutterfree Academy really look, now let’s be honest, for years it was called No by July. And that was a problem for people, wasn’t it, Tonya?

Tonya Kubo (01:06)

Mm-hmm.

Well, it was definitely, because our cluttery people, ? it’s really important to them that they do things right. And know by July felt really, really hard to get right.

Kathi Lipp (01:17)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, I’ll never forget. It must have been two years ago. One of our people on July 1st, they needed to repair their car and they like our whole month is gone now. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You get to repair your car and you can still do low by. Well, at the time it was no by July, but it was it was stressful for them. You know, I ran out of milk. Well, we’d really like you to get milk.

Tonya Kubo (01:35)

No!

Kathi Lipp (01:50)

? You know, I know a lot of people there are a lot of boycotts going on right now and I was watching this ? one video where a guy was like I don’t know what to do because the only formula my baby likes the only place I can get it in my town is this certain store and I’m like go to the store go to the store, you know, yeah like

Tonya Kubo (02:09)

Well, exactly. ? my gosh, that’s

a whole different episode, but a good friend of mine and I, were having the same conversation because she was just like, you that’s easy for you to say when you live in certain areas, but it is difficult, right? Not everybody has the same choices. That’s just, it’s important to know that.

Kathi Lipp (02:25)

Exactly.

Right.

And I figure if I reduce things by 75 % and that’s still enough to make an impact and I feel the same thing for low by July. it’s real. OK, so this is not about restrictions. It’s about a reset. And I am the poster child for the reset because I

Tonya Kubo (02:38)

Mm-hmm.

definitely.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:58)

I get into bad habits during the year, you know, saving time. And it’s like, you know what? Time is not really my biggest constraint. Now, I would say time is a big constraint for you because you are running human beings all over the town. ? But you know, maybe energy is more of a constraint for me and less of a constraint for you. Like we all have our different constraints, but it’s very easy for me to fall into the habit of.

Tonya Kubo (02:59)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:24)

? This will take less time. So I’m just going to do something out of habit and I don’t want to live like that. I really don’t Yeah, I I want this is about a reset and do you approach it as a reset as well?

Tonya Kubo (03:30)

Mm-hmm.

yeah, mean, definitely. Even No-By-July was a reset for us. It was an opportunity to go, ? where has the spending incrementally, like little bits of overspending have become big bits of overspending. So for us, Low-By-July has always been the opportunity to eat out of the freezer to like minimize how much stuff we have in our outside freezer.

Kathi Lipp (03:57)

Right. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:06)

It’s the opportunity to go, do we really need to go to the grocery store as often as we’re going? Because Kathi to your point, right, I’ve got kids in school. May and June is a gauntlet for us. And so it’s very easy, especially in the month of May, for us to go from eating out twice a month to suddenly eating out twice a week. And then by June, we are like overwhelmed by the amount of decisions we’ve had to make.

Kathi Lipp (04:13)

Right.

Ugh, yes.

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (04:35)

And then it’s like, maybe we’ll just door dash. Like we don’t even have the energy to go to a restaurant. We’re just like, we’ll just have it come to us. And so in July, it’s a great opportunity to go, my gosh, we’ve got all this food in the freezer that we haven’t touched in a month or two. Let’s start going through all that. Let’s see what we can do. Let’s start reducing the spending. And it’s nice because we’re all home more. So it just makes sense for us.

Kathi Lipp (04:43)

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, and here’s something I’ve wondered, but I’ve never actually asked you about. I know with my kids, like when church would have a challenge or something, the kids would be on board. I could issue the same challenge as a parent and they’d be like, why do we need to do this? Like, is it easier for your kids to accept, we’re doing the clutter free thing, or does it make no difference to your children?

Tonya Kubo (05:06)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

You know, that’s funny is actually ? Lily used to get really upset over it. Like, why would you sign us up for this, mom? Like, that’s not nice. Why would you do this? And ? then Abby always struggled because her birthday is in July. So what I just make it about is we like look at like they’re old enough to though now they’re 10 and 15. So now it’s like we’ve got all this stuff at home.

Kathi Lipp (05:34)

? wow. Okay.

right.

Tonya Kubo (05:55)

And so what I do, there’s a big reward at the end. So we save like all the money that we save. We get to decide to do something fun with it. We’re not in that stage where we’re saving that money and we’re like, we have to pay off this big bill. We have to do this. We have to do that. We just get to do something fun. But then what they don’t realize is there’s things that I don’t start doing again in August and in September. And so while all my savings in July may go to some kind of reward,

Kathi Lipp (05:59)

Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (06:24)

I’m still saving that amount in August and September and I get to use that to other things.

Kathi Lipp (06:27)

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I love this because I what I feel like low by July does for me is Yes, it does save us money, but it just creates a breathing room You know in our house because there’s less stuff coming in our schedules and especially you know in those fine You know the day-to-day finances and Tonya I will say it is very comical when roger and I come home from town because we only go to town once a week, right and so

Tonya Kubo (06:57)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:59)

We unload the car. It looks like we’re going on a month vacation. I it does seem a little preposterous sometime Yeah Yeah, I

Tonya Kubo (07:05)

I get it though.

I used to live way out in

Boondockville at one point and yes, it is like that. It’s like you are moving is what it feels like.

Kathi Lipp (07:12)

? my goodness.

Yes, it really does. We have finally learned to get everything out of our car before we go to town because we’re going to fill up our, it’s a whole thing. Okay. So I think another thing that is going to be maybe a little different this year is I’m, I’m sure you feel the same, or at least you have people around you who feel the same. Finances feel different this year, at least for us. We are

Tonya Kubo (07:26)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)

We are looking at our 401k, there we go. And there’s been a lot going on in the market and stuff like that. If we were panicking, the thought that would be going through my mind is we have to delay retirement for three years now. Because that’s how much we’ve lost in our 401k. And I am not a reactionary, I know things are gonna go up again, but I think a lot of people…

Tonya Kubo (08:01)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:12)

who maybe don’t have a lot of cushion are feeling a lot of stress. Are you noticing that in your circles as well?

Tonya Kubo (08:17)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, I mean, it looks different in my circles, right? Like we all notice that things cost more right now. So in my circles, people aren’t bringing in less money necessarily. Like I know a few people who are public employees who, you know, downsized or whatever, but for the most part, they’re not bringing in less money, but the money isn’t going as far as it used to.

Kathi Lipp (08:28)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we’ll just call it the egg index, right? It was ? our one of our neighbors brought us over a dozen eggs. Our chicken are not of laying age right now. ? They are up they are upstairs in the bathroom and they’re definitely of pooping age right now. And so ? we’ve yes, it’s not it’s not pleasant. But yes, the egg index, you know, not just because of the bird flu, but just you know, the cost of things are going up.

Tonya Kubo (08:48)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Got it.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:13)

So I feel like this is coming at a great time. We’re putting this podcast out a couple of weeks early because we want you to be able to think through some of these things. Like Tonya was talking about plan to plan. Yeah, because your daughter has a birthday in July. So you do a lot of your planning in advance. And you know what? That’s really going to help out. So I want to come back and talk about how I think it’s so important to have a

Tonya Kubo (09:22)

It’s plan to plan. We want you to plan to plan.

Kathi Lipp (09:40)

goal for what you’re going to do with the money you save. And I’ve got some ideas for when we come back.

Tonya Kubo (09:41)

Mm-hmm.

Awesome.

Kathi Lipp (09:48)

Okay. Okay, friends, we are back. ? And I want to talk about you’re going to save some money in July because you’re not going to be buying extras. We will give you all the details in when you join us over at Clutterfree Academy in the Facebook in the Facebook, I was going to say the Facebook group, but it makes me sound like a 75 year no, let’s a 90 year old person when I say the Facebook. ?

Because I’ve got some very hip 75 year olds in my in my circle ? But I think it’s really important to go in with a goal and I know what you you just said that you’re you’re You’re talking to your family about saving for a treat, but Tonya that hasn’t always been your circumstance has it?

Tonya Kubo (10:29)

Mm-hmm.

No, no, there I mean there were circumstances. Well, I mean we were a single income household for quite a while and there’s just been times where we’ve had to do the cut back because we’ve had to do the cut

Kathi Lipp (10:47)

Yeah, so I want to talk about a few different ? areas that this could go to. Now for some people, it’s just going to be survival. Like I just need to make it through, you know, I’m just trying to get from paycheck to paycheck. I want you to consider this your learning lab month. This is your we’re going to all be there to support you.

We’re gonna be in the Facebook group talking about how we’re saving money, how to look at things differently. Maybe it’s time to cut out some subscriptions, but you’re gonna be there with people who are going to be able to cheer you on. Then there’s gonna be some people who are going to be like, we need to pay off a bill. Like there’s something that is hanging over our head. Maybe it’s a medical bill, maybe it’s a car loan. ? And if you have a few different things you’re paying off,

Maybe this is the month to start the snowball. I learned about the snowball from Amy Decision, the Tight Wad Gazette that back in the nineties, but I know a lot of people know about it because of Dave Ramsey. And that is just where you pay off one bill ? because you’re making the minimum payment on all these different bills. And you take what you were paying on that first bill. Once you get it paid off and you apply that to the second lowest bill and you do that until that’s paid off.

And I know that that has made a difference in my life and other people’s lives. So to think about that. Three could be an emergency fund. Maybe you need a little cushion for when a disaster happens. Tonya, as you know, Roger and I have had to start a protocol of rabies treatments. We’re fine. We’re 100 % fine.

Tonya Kubo (12:15)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:33)

But yeah, we had an encounter with a bat and it was the county recommendation was that we get this rabies protocol. And they called me yesterday and they said, your copay on this each is $2,100. How would you like to take care of that? And I’m like.

Tonya Kubo (12:55)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:56)

Do you really have a lot of people who are like, yes, here’s my $2,100. In our case, $4,200. Let’s just take after $1,000 at the ER. Like, I don’t know people, I don’t know a lot of people who can just whip that out. But even just having a small emergency fund, and this is what I’ve noticed with our kids, they keep a small emergency fund. So that extra copay at the dentist doesn’t become a crisis.

Tonya Kubo (13:24)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:27)

And so if you’re in that place where everything’s a crisis, because I have been there, a small emergency fund can be a great next step. And then the fourth thing is to start saving. Is there something that you’re saving for? Maybe it’s something fun. Maybe it’s something that you really need for your house. And then let’s put the fifth one in there with Tonya. It’s the party fund just for the month of July.

But

Tonya Kubo (13:50)

Yep.

Kathi Lipp (13:50)

you’re resetting those habits and those things. And I love that you’re doing that with your girls. I just love that. So what is your thing that you’re usually saving for that’s fun in the month of July?

Tonya Kubo (14:03)

?

Usually we take vacation and so we pre-save, but then we take the money that we save in July and we put that either toward like spending money for the vacation. ? Last year, just because of how things were working out, we actually put it toward our back to school shopping for the girls. Like it was their budget for back to school shopping. ? Because keep in mind, for you and me, Kathi, as moms,

Kathi Lipp (14:07)

? nice.

Mm, ? I love that.

Tonya Kubo (14:31)

That’s just stuff we have to pay for. But when you are 10 and 14, that is freedom you have never experienced in your life.

Kathi Lipp (14:34)

Right!

Well, am I remembering correctly that Abby was like weighing things back and forth like gold? that was it her or Lily when she had that cash that she was ? empowered with?

Tonya Kubo (14:53)

Yes, yes, that was Abby. Abby was really confused at how quarters could weigh more than dollars, but not be worth as much. That was a problem for her. It was very unfair, very unfair that she could have five pounds of small change and it was not worth the same amount as her dollars.

Kathi Lipp (15:04)

It was very unfair.

Yep. ? I totally get it, Abby. I am right there with you. OK, so Tonya, how do people join this challenge?

Tonya Kubo (15:20)

Yeah, so we’re going to do something that’s a little different is what we’re going to do. So what we are going to do this year is we are going to have it in the Clutterfree Academy Facebook group like we always do. Because in the month of July, this is a crossover with our private membership community Clutterfree for Life. But we are going to give folks an opportunity to sign up for Low By July emails.

Kathi Lipp (15:26)

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (15:48)

because what we have discovered is they forget to check in on the group, Kathi. And we’ve got some listeners who aren’t on Facebook, but they still wanna participate. And they’re not gonna get a ton of emails. It’s not like an email every day or anything. We’re just gonna give them like, you know, one, maybe two emails a week, just about the challenge. So this is gonna be different than the newsletter. We’re not gonna send it out to everybody, just the folks that appreciate that, but that’s what we’re gonna do.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)

?

yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I love that so much. Okay, and a couple of more practice and we’ll have that that link in the show notes. But if you just look for Kathi Lipp’s Clutterfree Academy and Facebook, you’ll find us. Don’t worry. You have to answer a couple of questions before you get into the group because we don’t want well, we like weird people, but we don’t like mean people. So no meanies.

Tonya Kubo (16:20)

Mm-hmm.

I don’t like spammy

weirdo bots in our group.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)

Nope, nope, we’re not doing that. So just a couple of practical things that might be helpful here. ? Inventory what you already have. Do I have enough deodorant to get me through July? That’s an important consideration. ? Do I need, you know, do I need to replace my toothbrush heads? Whatever it is, just take a little inventory. You don’t need to buy for the rest of your life. You just need to have enough to get you through July. that, and then, you know, if you’re like,

Tonya Kubo (16:49)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:06)

I don’t know that I wanna do everything. Maybe it’s just not buying clothes. Or maybe it’s just saying, okay, I’m going to eat through everything that I already have on hand. And then that way I don’t have to go to the grocery store as much. Or maybe say, I’m gonna just do $50 a week at the grocery store when you normally do 200. These are all things that you can do on your own. Any other last minute tips?

Tenneil (17:12)

the issues ?

Kathi Lipp (17:36)

Tonya?

Tonya Kubo (17:37)

I would just say if there, maybe just make a list of purchases you wanna think about whether you can get away with not doing in the month of July. So maybe there’s a subscription you have, maybe that you’re like, do I really need Audible or do I really need whatever? Just make a list and consider making July the month you try life out without.

Kathi Lipp (17:46)

you

I love it. Okay, guys, ? pop on over to the Facebook group. Join us before July because we’re going to be gearing up over there. And stay tuned because Tonya and I are going to talk about something that I have decided has earned a place in my house. And by the way, I love it so much. I forced it into Tonya’s house. Like I sent it to her because I knew she needed it so badly. Okay, we’ll be right back.

Kathi Lipp (00:01)

And we are back and this is one of my favorite parts of the podcast. We’re going to talk about things that have earned a place in my clutter free home. Now, some of you are going to be like, Kathi, we’re talking about low by July and why, why are we buying things? Okay. This is why guys, because my new favorite quote is cluttery people are the meanest people in the world, but only to themselves.

? I didn’t think you’d heard me say that yet, Tonya but isn’t it the truth, right?

friend, I’ve l-

Tonya Kubo (00:36)

Absolutely

so true, so true.

Kathi Lipp (00:39)

Yeah, it we are so hard on ourselves. So this is why we can no longer call it no by July because ? if you cracked a tooth, you wouldn’t go to the dentist or if you did go to the dentist, you would think you were a complete failure. So this is why it’s. Yeah, right.

Tonya Kubo (00:54)

No, that’s what it is. They think they’re

a complete failure for going to the dentist to fix their crack tooth.

Kathi Lipp (01:00)

Exactly during no by July. So that’s why we’re calling it low by July and Hey, you may not need this. So let me tell you don’t buy this but I need it and I I I forced my opinions on Tonya and Said you need this too. And so when I tell you you need something I’m not going to make you need it without getting it for you. So

But I was so convinced that this would change Tonya’s life that I sent her a couple ? post-haste. And it is called Bug Bite Thing. And if you’re watching online, I just held it up. And we’ll have, of course, a link in ? the podcast notes. But what this is, it’s like a plunger for Bug Bites. I don’t know how else to describe it.

Tonya Kubo (01:50)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:53)

So if you’re watching, just gonna, I’m gonna put this on here. Whoops, I’m doing it wrong. So say like I got a bug bite right here. This is great for people who are listening, by the way, as I’m describing this. But ? you’re gonna pull this up and it’s going to suck the saliva, the venom out of your bug bite. And I heard it explained, we just had a doctor here at the Red House.

And we were talking about bug bites and I’m like, okay, so is it true that everybody gets stung the same amount probably and some of us are just more allergic to it or are some of us sweeter? And she goes, it’s a combination of both. And I’m like, okay, well that was really interesting. And so I’ve got all the attractants and the allergies to it. Roger can get, I know that Roger gets bit so often because he’s outside way more than I am, but they don’t.

bug him as much as they do, but they bug me to death. And so you were even I think it was as early as April you were having mosquitoes.

Tonya Kubo (02:59)

Well,

and I had them on my face!

Kathi Lipp (03:02)

Right, which is not a cute look. You’re very cute, but that’s not a cute look. And so I’m like, I’ve got the thing. I’ve got the thing. Now I will tell you, Roger and I have had discussions about whether this is completely psychosomatic or not. And I was like, well, first of all, I don’t care because I’m still using it. And when I use it, it actually works. But I did a little research. ?

Tonya Kubo (03:18)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:30)

And the research shows that the body reacts to proteins or chemicals injected by insects like histamines or anti-collagra… wait.

Tonya Kubo (03:40)

Coagulants.

Kathi Lipp (03:42)

There we go. I’ll never be able to say that word. If you remove them early enough, you may interrupt the histamine, histamine, okay. Okay. Guys, these are words that I don’t use. C-A-S cascade, the histamine cascade. I know where the cascade is. Okay. Leading to less itching and swelling. When I read these notes, I’m like, I can say that. Apparently not. ? So suction devices have been used in wound care.

all sorts of things for a really, really long time. But there was a study in Germany that said, and I’m not even gonna try to pronounce the name of that newspaper, but it says that it’s tested a suction-based device for bug bites. It found that both reduced itch and swelling when used immediately. So take that, Roger Lipp.

Tonya Kubo (04:12)

Mm-hmm.

Well, I just feel like it’s a much more hygienic form of a leech.

Kathi Lipp (04:38)

Okay, wow, you just

Tonya Kubo (04:38)

We use leeches for a long time.

Kathi Lipp (04:44)

Leaches never even occurred to me Okay, but so here’s the thing if you’re hippie-dippy and you don’t like to use a lot of medicines This is probably really good for you ? and ? I will as soon as I notice that something is swelling on me. I go in with the bug bite Extractor it’s called the bug bite thing and I suck out the poison and guys I It works. It just works

Tonya Kubo (05:12)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:13)

And so, mean, your results may vary, but ? it only works if you use it pretty much immediately. Like you’re not gonna go to Target and buy one and then use it on the bug bite you got. ? But I love this thing. So if you live in a place with a lot of bug bites, have you actually tried it yet, Tonya?

Tonya Kubo (05:24)

Mm-hmm.

I was going to say like, but you by the time the one you sent to me arrived, obviously I could not use it on my face, but ? you know, they get trapped in our bedrooms. And so Abby woke up with one that was really bothering her on her ankle. And we, said, well, let me just open this up and let’s try it out. And she looked at me with all the skepticism of her 10 year old brain. Right. And, but you could see the like liquid on the surface of the skin afterwards.

Kathi Lipp (05:51)

Mm-hmm.

Of course.

Yes,

Tonya Kubo (06:06)

which she was really grossed out by. And

I was like, but it’s gross cool, right? She was like, no such thing as gross cool, mom. But it did not swell like typical. mean, cause you know how they swell up pretty big, at least on my body and on my girl’s body. I just say it’s worth buying. Buy it, try it. If you hate it, fine. But I don’t think you’ll hate it.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)

Yes, there is.

Yeah.

If you

react to mosquito bites like me, like you, like your girls, you want to do anything you can to make it lessen. And ? if it doesn’t work for you, I am sorry. But ? the anecdotal evidence is that this thing really, really works. And there’s some scientific backing to it. So.

Tonya Kubo (06:40)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:52)

I have not convinced Mr. Roger Lipp. He still thinks that I am, you know, I didn’t even think about using this on the tick that, you know, could I have sucked the tick out? I don’t know. ? That is not one of its indications because yeah, but hey.

Tonya Kubo (07:03)

Hell no.

I don’t think so. I’m just going to say no on

the tick thing. You have to actually remove the tick the old fashioned way.

Kathi Lipp (07:11)

Well, here’s the problem.

It did not remove it became one with my body. So I would have tried anything at that point. Yeah, I’ve still got little Herman riding along with me. We are one now. So sorry if that grosses you out. So guys, ? I love this thing. I think they’re probably around ? seven to nine dollars a piece. I think I bought a two pack. I would buy I would buy this again in a second. Okay.

Tonya Kubo (07:16)

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (07:40)

So that’s my little things that have earned it. Let’s just say if this went missing, I would buy another one immediately because it really does make a difference. Okay, friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathy Lipp Now go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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#683 – Declutter Your Bathroom Sink Space (Even With Zero Storage!)

Aug 19, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Tired of opening your bathroom cabinets only to find chaos staring back at you? You're not alone. In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi teams up with decluttering expert Tonya Kubo to tackle one of the most frustrating spaces in many homes: the bathroom sink...

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

by Roger Lipp | Apr 22, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 2 comments

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo delve into the importance of a tidy nightstand for a better night’s sleep and a more organized life. They discuss Kathi’s recent purchase of new nightstands with built-in outlets, her nighttime routine essentials, and practical strategies for keeping your bedroom clutter-free. Whether it’s finding the right furniture, using drawer dividers, or setting up a night basket, Kathi and Tonya offer a step-by-step system to help listeners turn their nightstand into a launchpad for an organized day. And don’t miss the listener challenge that encourages you to declutter your own nightstand and reap the benefits.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Sand & Stable Scarlett 2 – Drawer End Table and Built-In Outlets & Reviews | Wayfair

Download the Free Guide:
The Nightstand Reset – your 10-minute guide to a more peaceful evening

FYI: Some product links may be affiliate links. If you buy, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for your support!

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with Tonya Kubo, leader of all things clutter free. Tonya, we are back into small spaces. We love a good small space. you know, our last podcast was our spiciest episode ever. And now it’s Tonya and Kathi after dark.

Tonya Kubo (00:40)
I you hide these from me just to get my reaction.

Kathi Lipp (00:44)
come on. actually that one that one I just came up with.

And let me tell you, on one of my favorite podcasts, Wirecutter. At the end of the podcast, they ask, what’s your favorite thing that you’ve bought recently? And so Tonya, want you to, I want to pretend I’m on Wirecutter and I want you to ask me that question. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (01:10)
Okay, so Kathi Lipp, what is your

favorite thing you have bought recently?

Kathi Lipp (01:14)
I’m so glad you asked. I’m so, so glad you asked because I’m so excited about this. And I bought it. I actually don’t have it. So maybe check with me in six months to see if I still love it. But can I tell you, you know, something I have discovered Tonya is I am really good at decluttering and I am a total cheapskate when it comes to organization. Like I’ve, I’ve thought for years, I don’t need to

Tonya Kubo (01:24)
Ha ha ha ha!

Ha!

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:44)
buy all these wacky organizational tools. don’t need, and then I’ve come to find out sometimes you do. You’re creating the system, but to keep the system going, sometimes you’re like, okay, I just need to do this. And so I have finally broken down and I have bought new nightstands. Now I haven’t bought a new nightstand. I’m not exaggerating. Since I was married the first time,

Tonya Kubo (01:47)
Mm-hmm.

I’m right.

Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
And that was in 1990. So I have not bought a nightstand for myself in 35 years. So I’m going to tell you about this nightstand. So the nightstands we have now, because they were passed down when we bought this house, so you could say we bought it since we bought a house and these came with it, but I digress. They’re very open. And so you see everything.

Tonya Kubo (02:17)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:43)
And

I don’t like that look. And no, I am not a Swedish girlie. I wish I could be, but that is just not how I live my life. And so I’m reverting back to the nightstand of my youth, which was two drawers. And one drawer was for everything you need every single night. And the other drawer is for things you may need less option, but you definitely want to have.

Tonya Kubo (02:45)
You don’t like the open concept nightstand, is that what you’re telling me?

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:12)
And now these new nightstands have in the top of the nightstand, they have built-in chargers.

Tonya Kubo (03:23)
What? Like, like chargers for a phone or like, like outlets for like a regular cord?

Kathi Lipp (03:24)
Yes. Yes.

Outlets

outlets so you can put your USB cords in them and Yes, and can I tell you how excited I am about this little update and the reviews on these are really good I’ll put them. It’s on Wayfair. I’ll put a link so you guys can see them, but That is what we’re talking about today is nightstands because we’re going through the house and we’re doing all these little micro spaces and

Tonya Kubo (03:36)
God

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (03:59)
These microspaces make the difference day to day of how we operate our life. So let me ask you about your nightstand situation, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (04:02)
Mm-hmm.

well, mean, my nightstand situation is not that exciting because the way our house is set up. So we have one nightstand and that’s on Brian’s side of the bed and it is one drawer and a shelf at the bottom. So it’s kind of a hybrid of what you have. And then on my side, because the bed has to be pushed so close to the dresser, I just use the top of the dresser as my nightstand, which is problematic because I don’t get the benefit of drawers because it’s our dresser drawers.

Kathi Lipp (04:16)
my goodness.

Yes. Yes, yes.

okay.

Right.

Yes. Yeah, that I think you got the short stick.

Tonya Kubo (04:40)
totally got the short end of the stick. And if you come into our bedroom, it makes him look like Brian is the organized person. And I am not because of course for him, he just tucks everything into the drawer before he like leaves in the morning. Meanwhile, everything, you know, like my eye drops and all of my stuff has to be on top of the dresser. So it’s just not an ideal situation. It’s one of those things where we’ve talked about like,

Kathi Lipp (04:50)
Okay.

Beautiful.

Mmm, yes.

Tonya Kubo (05:06)
Well, we should do it differently, we’re like, okay, well we have to wait till we buy a new dresser and then we can do this and then we can do that. And then suddenly I’m tired. I don’t want to change.

Kathi Lipp (05:10)
Yeah.

Right. It’s

the give a mouse a cookie of nightstands and nobody needs that, right? So I have found part of the reason that I’ve made this change is a couple of reasons. One, Roger has a CPAP and we need a place to put all of that nonsense, right? But the other thing is I have noticed when my nightstand gets too backed up,

Tonya Kubo (05:18)
Exactly!

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:42)
I

actually don’t sleep well because I’m afraid my phone’s going to fall off. I’m afraid about that glass of water. Like, and I at night, I don’t want to spend time cleaning all that nonsense up, but I really do feel. And this is this. If you listen to our podcast listeners from Dr. Vicky Casper, where she was talking about getting better sleep, she says a neat organized bedroom.

Tonya Kubo (05:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:12)
Impacts

your sleep in really really good ways And so I know that a neat surface actually helps me fall asleep faster It it feels more invite. I love walking into our room when the bed is made the nightstand is clear and it’s like, It’s just all waiting for me. Does that make sense? I don’t know Yeah

Tonya Kubo (06:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it totally makes sense. And I also

think that, you know, I’m a big proponent of routines, like having a solid morning routine and an evening routine. And my thing is, your evening routine should be all about making your morning easier. And your morning routine is all about making the end of your day easier. And so I can imagine having a tidy nightstand really makes the mornings easier at your house.

Kathi Lipp (06:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to sink into bed. And, you know, I have a little routine that I do each night. And to have all of that there and then to have what I need in the morning, my phone, my glasses, all that kind of stuff. It just makes everything better. OK. go ahead.

Tonya Kubo (07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so was going to say, so, so, you know, we’ve talked about the value of a tidy nightstand. We talked about a couple of different nightstand situations. So let’s just say our listeners not there yet, Kathi. Our listener doesn’t have the open concept nightstand that is soon to be replaced by a closed concept nightstand.

Kathi Lipp (07:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I get it.

I

am waiting for the FedEx guy right here. I am.

Tonya Kubo (07:44)
Yeah,

with power associated with it. Like that’s my favorite part of the whole thing. So walk us through how to get started. Okay, the nightstand is out of control. What do we do?

Kathi Lipp (07:48)
my goodness, right?

Yes, me too.

Yeah.

Okay. And by the way, I have been perfect. My nightstand that I’ve had has been perfectly serviceable. It’s just not my ideal situation. And right now I wanted to do something for me. So it doesn’t matter what your nightstand situation is. It all starts the same way. So first, again, as, as long time listeners, this podcast has been going for a decade now.

Tonya Kubo (08:17)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:26)
I’ve always said don’t pull everything out at once and put it in the middle of the room, but we’re talking about super small spaces here, tiny, tiny, tiny spaces. So I’m gonna tell you, pull everything out. I want you to pull out the books, the cords, the lotions, the random socks. I mean, we’ve all been there, right? Let me talk about other things I have in there, like the tweezers, the chapstick, and then you’re gonna sort this into a couple of different piles, so keep.

Tonya Kubo (08:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:55)
What truly belongs? So do you have medications that you need to take at night? That phone charger, your chapstick, maybe you have a little vase you want to keep on that nightstand. I like to a pin at my nightstand, my glasses. So I’m going to keep those. And then another pile is relocate. What has wandered there that does not need to be there?

Tonya Kubo (09:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:23)
I’m embarrassed. I don’t know. You I have weird stuff there. And also I have too many pairs of glasses. I don’t need like four pairs of glasses right there.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
Okay, do you want to the weird stuff that’s in Brian’s drawer when I clean it out? Candy wrappers. He hides the candy wrappers because you know he’s like sneaking the candy so that one of the two children doesn’t see and then he stashes the wrappers in the drawer.

Kathi Lipp (09:36)
I don’t know, do I?

yes.

Well, you know what? Go off, King. That’s all I have to say. Brian has lost a ton of weight. He’s gotten so healthy. Whatever candy he wants, Brian gets. So…

Tonya Kubo (09:55)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

to say it’s so funny is I’ll go to his drawer to like look for something because that’s oftentimes where we have a backup charger. I’m like, of all, I didn’t know we had peeps and there were twicks in this house and nobody told me I am not okay with this.

Kathi Lipp (10:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. Okay,

can I just go a little off topic? I think what I need to put out into the universe, because I have dropped this hint too many times and have been ignored by Roger Lipp, the Japanese assortment of Twix. Have you guys, you seem like the household that would have had these at some point.

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

yes. Yeah,

well we’ve had the Japanese assortment of Kit Kats. There’s like 40 different versions. Yeah, 40 different versions. Yes. I’m just gonna tell you right now, strawberries and champagne, hard pass. It tastes like rotten grapes. Just gonna tell you right there. I did a whole like Instagram live on it because they were so bad. So bad.

Kathi Lipp (10:45)
That’s what I meant! I’m sorry KitKat, not Twix. Yes.

really? Okay. Eww!

I had no

idea. Okay, but I want to try the rest of them. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (11:05)
The rest of them are amazing, especially

the ones that they have that you’re supposed to broil. Yes, we can talk about this after the episode.

Kathi Lipp (11:10)
What? Okay, we have, we

have real, no, people will email me. Okay, just tell me, how do you broil a Kit Kat?

Tonya Kubo (11:20)
It is a regular KitKat, but you’re supposed to like broil it and they have these in-depth instructions about what the degrees are and how long because you have to be careful because it starts to melt. But it’s I think it’s toasted marshmallow flavor. And then so you broil it to like toast it. But it ends up just being a melty mess and it’s delicious. It’s worth the mess.

Kathi Lipp (11:27)
Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Okay,

so guys if you want to know how to do that I would say go on AI or google because I I don’t know but I We need to figure this out. Okay, so you have your keep pile things you want to keep in your nightstand You have your relocate? Apparently candy wrapper. Well the next the kitkat candy wrappers go into the next day discard recycle trash old receipts anything that’s expired etc, etc and

Tonya Kubo (11:45)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (12:08)
Before you reload this is the time to get out the handy vac you want to go deep in there you want to get all of that cleaned out give it a good wipe let it air out a little bit and a clean slate helps you see how much space you really have and then We’re gonna we we’re going to I want you to wipe down the top, too I want you to you know, just whether you use furniture polish a Clorox wipe, whatever it is

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Just make sure you’re starting off with a clean slate.

Tonya Kubo (12:43)
That sounds good. you know what? It’s time for us to take a little break before we get to the rest of it. But when we come back from the break, stay listening because we’re going to talk about the right furniture, the right accessories, these important things that will help you maximize your space. We’ll be right back.

Kathi Lipp (12:47)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:02)
All right, and we are back talking right furniture, accessories, and really getting to the practical. How do you do the thing? How do you have an effective nightstand? So Kathi okay, so you’ve upgraded to the two drawer nightstand with built-in outlets. I was hoping that you would talk to us a little bit more about.

Kathi Lipp (13:18)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (13:24)
why you felt like that was the right solution given your current circumstances, because you already told us what you have now is actually serviceable.

Kathi Lipp (13:27)
Yeah.

It’s totally fine, but I will say I did have to put like a basket on the second layer. know, so we have a drawer up top, which is a very thin drawer and then a, just a shelf at the bottom and I had to put a basket on that. So that would be the basket I pulled out at night with like my face cream, all that kind of stuff. So we’ll talk more about that in a second, but I just wanted, I wanted to be able to close things up at night and just be done, but also,

Tonya Kubo (14:01)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:02)
Be able to see what I have and what I need and so this little tiny drawer I have it’s fine But it means everything has to be stored laying down and it just it wasn’t smooth Let me just say that it wasn’t smooth and so I I do have a really lovely solution that my my lamp is built is attached on the wall

Tonya Kubo (14:31)
Mmm. That’s nice.

Kathi Lipp (14:31)
So it doesn’t take any space up.

that’s really nice because that can take a lot of your usable space top. I just, at 57, I wanted to walk into my room and not have it be so utilitarian, but just to be lovely. If I wanted to, you know, we have wildflowers here. I want a little vase of wildflowers. I want my book to be on my nightstand.

Tonya Kubo (14:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:58)
I don’t want a bunch of medications, know, tissues, that kind of stuff. I want it to look lovely. And I will say one other thing I’ve done that this would not work for my friend Brian Kubo, who is trying to sneak his candy. But we have put between our nightstand and our bed, just a thin, clear, waste paper basket that, you know, so for that occasional tissue, that occasional candy wrapper, like the things we can just throw them in there and

Tonya Kubo (15:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:26)
It does help keep that space a little bit neater and tidier.

Tonya Kubo (15:31)
Yeah, well, I can imagine, you know, I know for us we have blown through charging cables because of tripping, tripping over the cord. So this sounds to me like that would solve that problem as well.

Kathi Lipp (15:37)
Mmm. Yes. Yes.

Yes, I think, you know, and the chords make, we have so many chords in our life. And I get sick of looking at chords. I mean, it’s not, is it going to disrupt my whole day? But no, to have less chords is kind of a beautiful thing.

Tonya Kubo (15:49)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, and then I just want to say like on the inside drawers, we’ve talked in prior episodes about the honeycomb or box dividers. So I just think it’s important to highlight the fact that if you have drawers, we’re not necessarily saying just dump everything in there equally. There are drawer solutions in terms of organizing as well.

Kathi Lipp (16:05)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

No, no.

Yeah, I’m gonna wait till I get these drawers in my house and then I’m going to Put the dividers in that we’ve talked about, you know, these are spring-loaded so that they’ll fit in almost any drawer and The honeycomb box so I can put little things in there. But yeah, that makes it so much Everything’s standing up. You can see everything at once

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so what else do you have for us?

Kathi Lipp (16:45)
Well, you I’ve told you about my night basket before, in case nobody’s heard about this before. This is just a basket I use at night. So I have things in there like I’ve got a pill organizer that, you know, there are a couple of medications I take at night. So I put those in there. I have face wipes, the Neutrogena face wipes, because I’ll just be honest, when it gets past seven o’clock,

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:12)
If it’s a choice between me getting out of bed to wash my face or laying in bed with my Neutrogena wipes or not getting out of bed at all and going to bed to sleep, Neutrogena wipes for the win. And then I have facial cream. have neck cream. Now I do get out of bed to brush my teeth, drink my water and stuff, but every once in a while, I’ll be honest. I would say, you know, maybe once a week, maybe once every other week.

Tonya Kubo (17:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:42)
I’m like, I can’t even, and I know that grosses some people out. So one of the things I’ve done is I keep dental wipes in there. So, you know, they’re loaded with toothpaste and I can just, and I’ve got little tiny toothbrush and I keep my dental floss in there and it just makes my life easier. I also will take some vitamins at night. So like I keep everything in that bag. I will, I don’t know what my bag is going to look like with this new setup.

Tonya Kubo (17:49)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:10)
but I will have some kind of little bag or tote that I can pull out and have everything that I need at night. And one thing I’ve just added to it is just a little Tupperware container that has a moose treat in it. And because she comes to bed with me and I just wanna have a little routine for her at night. So it corrals all my bedtime routine into, know, steps into one place. And I am 93 % more likely to do it because I have it all together.

Tonya Kubo (18:10)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, I love that. And you know what? A little bit earlier you were just saying you get sick of looking at chords. Any tips in that front?

Kathi Lipp (18:46)
Yeah.

So I would say one of things that we’ve done is and I feel like this is absolute genius. I got a multi-pronged outlet and I put Velcro on the back of the outlet and then the other Velcro on the back of my nightstand. And so I can I can take that off. I can plug everything in and then I can slap it on the back.

Tonya Kubo (18:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:16)
and you don’t see all those chords going crazy. just, I feel like that was kind of a genius solution. makes me super, super happy.

Tonya Kubo (19:20)
Well…

Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I’m visualizing, which is why I’m talking slowly. So what about emotions? Cause you know, Kathi over in Clairefree Academy and our Facebook group, you want to believe that there’s not like it, it’s just stuff or you want to believe that something in the house doesn’t have emotion, but there’s emotional connections to everything for someone, right? So how do you address that side when it comes to the nightstand?

Kathi Lipp (19:30)
Yes.

Yeah, everything. Yes.

Yeah, I think, you know, it’s a little bit, we talked about the underwear drawer the other day and how we keep sometimes sentimental things there. If you’re going to display something on your nightstand, I think it’s an excellent place to put it. But I think what we, know, Tonya, our grandmothers and great grandmothers had trousseaux. They had, you know, a keepsake chest where they could keep all those things. And we’ve gotten away from that. And I think that each of us,

Tonya Kubo (19:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah!

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:24)
needs a box, a place to put those things that maybe are not going to be displayed, but are still precious to us. Because if they’re in our nightstand, I don’t know about you, but I just told you all the lotions and potions I keep in my nightstand. If I’ve got a love letter from Roger, do I really want that next to my bath and body works, you know, hibiscus? No, I don’t. Let me keep that in a special place. Let

Tonya Kubo (20:29)
Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

huh.

Kathi Lipp (20:51)
So let, if you wanna keep a framed photo or something like that, that’s lovely, go for it. But if you just don’t know where else to keep it, get a box that is just for things that are important to you because we all have memories that are important to us that maybe we don’t have to keep it, but you know what? We get to keep some silly stuff. We get to keep some emotional stuff. I think that that is okay. I just want you to also think about

Tonya Kubo (21:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:21)
We talked about this in our coat closet using that as a launch pad what if you thought of your nightstand as your you nighttime shutdown area and your morning launch area So i’m gonna keep my glasses here. I’m gonna keep my phone here. I’m gonna keep my e-reader here These are the things you know, i’m charging my watch i’m keeping everything here I have a little notepad here if I want to keep notes. This is where my book goes

Tonya Kubo (21:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you

Kathi Lipp (21:50)
So you have all of that that you need when you wake up in the morning and you reset it at night and it’s good to go. You you have your bottle of water. Like I put a bottle of water next to my nightstand every night and I may take a sip, a couple of sips at night, but the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I chug that whole bottle of water because I forget to drink water during the day.

Tonya Kubo (22:12)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (22:15)
But if it’s right there next to my nightstand, I’m gonna chug it as soon as I get up when I’m at my thirstiest. So think of it as your lunch.

Tonya Kubo (22:24)
I love that. I love that. Okay. So nightstand as a launch pad, which I think is a powerful reframe. And Kathi just want say thank you because you are the person who is designing these episodes for practical action for our listeners. just get to show up and ask questions and be curious. It’s like my favorite thing. And listeners, I’m just grateful to you.

Kathi Lipp (22:41)
You

Tonya Kubo (22:46)
for joining us, lending us your ears and taking advantage of all of these practical tips. So we’ve covered the why, the how and the emotional side of decluttering your nightstand. Your challenge this week is going to empty the nightstand. Try Kathi’s advice of setting up the night basket, maybe invest in a pillow organizer and see how it transforms your evenings. Make sure to check out the show notes though, cause we’ve got resources there for you to all different places and a handout that goes along with this episode.

Kathi Lipp (23:13)
Mmm, you got

go ahead Tonya. I was just gonna say one other thing is that make sure that you’re regularly cleaning it out It’s easy to let silly things like a lotion sample or you know, something along those lines just Don’t don’t get in your own way when it comes to the nightstand. You don’t need to keep all that stuff I’m sorry. I stepped on you, but it just occurred to me. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (23:18)
Mm-hmm.

no, you’re all good? Well,

because maintenance is so important, right? I think we’ve done a great job of talking about how to get it to a status. And what you did was remind us that it’s worth the time to keep it there. So thank you, friends. You’ve been listening to ClutterFree Academy. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Kathi Lipp (23:42)
It really is. Yeah.

#685 – Stuck and Overwhelmed? The Real Reason Your Clutter Won’t Budge

Sep 2, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Restore, tips and ideas

Are you worn out from battling clutter and not seeing the progress you’d hoped for? In this heartfelt episode, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo explore the reality of declutter fatigue and why, for so many women, the journey can feel never-ending. If you’re feeling stuck,...

#684 – Decluttering for Real Life: Simple Steps for Busy, Overwhelmed Women

Aug 26, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Is your clutter making a comeback…again? You tidy up, you declutter, but somehow, all those piles and projects sneak right back into your life. If you’ve ever felt defeated when the mess keeps resurfacing, this episode will speak right to your heart. Join Kathi and...

#683 – Declutter Your Bathroom Sink Space (Even With Zero Storage!)

Aug 19, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Tired of opening your bathroom cabinets only to find chaos staring back at you? You're not alone. In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi teams up with decluttering expert Tonya Kubo to tackle one of the most frustrating spaces in many homes: the bathroom sink...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame | 0 comments

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering.

Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she discovered that creative, successful women often struggle the most with clutter. Together, they explore why shame is so deeply connected to our messy spaces and how understanding that “Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house” can be the key to making real progress.

If you’ve ever felt that your cluttered home somehow makes you a spiritual failure, this episode offers liberating insights. Dana debunks common misconceptions about biblical references to order and cleanliness, including a fresh perspective on the Proverbs 31 woman.

Listeners will discover:

Why traditional organizing advice often fails creative minds

How removing shame is the first step to making actual progress

Dana’s practical decluttering question: “If I needed this item, where would I look for it first?”

The freedom that comes from embracing the reality of your space

Whether you’re just starting your decluttering journey or have been struggling for years, this conversation offers both spiritual encouragement and practical strategies to help you create a functional home without shame.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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As mentioned by Kathi:

Dana K. White’s website – https://danakwhite.com/

Dana’s new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House – https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/jesus/

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Clutter Free Resources:

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Leave an honest review on iTunes. Your ratings and reviews really help and I read each one.

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Meet Our Guest

Dana K White

Dana K. White is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, speaker, and creator of the No Mess Decluttering Process. Through her podcast, YouTube channel, and three published books, she shares practical decluttering and organizing strategies that work for real people who don’t naturally love to clean. As the founder of DeclutteringCoaches.com, she now trains and certifies others in her unique approach to home management.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:19.694)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. Okay, you guys, you refer to her in so many emails to me, you quote her, you, I think you want me to be her, but you know what? I’ve got the next best thing. She is here on the podcast.

And this is our first time meeting, so I’m so glad we’re doing it with all of my friends listening. You guys, it is Dana K. White. Dana, welcome to Clutterfree Academy.

Dana K White (00:56.509)

Thank you so much for having me on. I have been hearing for years, you’ve got to meet Kathi. Like you just have to and I’m like, okay. So I’m excited that we’re getting to meet finally.

Kathi Lipp (01:01.518)

Well, you know, I have also heard that, but let me just tell you where I’ve encountered you the most when I’m going to Amazon to see how my books are doing and who’s outselling me. And it’s always you. Not that I’m bitter or anything, but you know what? Here’s what I love. The message about decluttering and about Jesus is getting out there. So if it’s you, I will cheer you on because now I’ve discovered you’re really nice. So, okay. Instead of

Dana K White (01:12.999)

Okay.

Dana K White (01:19.559)

Sorry.

Dana K White (01:28.475)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dana K White (01:35.365)

And I’m funny.

Kathi Lipp (01:36.43)

And you’re funny, I love a funny queen. I love this so much. Okay, we have so much to get into and I know we’re gonna get sidetracked. So I’m just gonna dive in. And by the way guys, if you’re one of the three people who doesn’t know who Dana K. White is, she’s written several books, three quarters of a million books sold. So like she knows what she is talking about.

Dana K White (01:41.715)

you

Kathi Lipp (02:00.18)

Also a YouTube star. for my, you know, millennials and, you know, Z listeners, you guys have seen her. I’m sure you have. But I, here’s what I want to discuss because when I first started in this decluttering game, I did not understand that I would be talking. I thought I was going to be talking about organizational systems. I thought I was going to be talking. What I end up talking about all the time.

is shame. And I, why do shame and clutter go hand in hand? Why are these two things like kissin’ cousins? Because I don’t know that a lot of people who are struggling with clutter think it’s shame based, but I would say when I’m talking to people, at least 75 % of the time it is.

Dana K White (02:54.695)

Well, think, so coming at it, not necessarily from the clutter being the result of the shame, but the shame being result of the clutter. what, okay, so my story is that I started this anonymous blog. I thought it was gonna be temporary. It was just gonna be practice because I was desperate to write, but my house had always been a disaster, like always, always, always. Every space I touched turned into a disaster, right? And so I,

Kathi Lipp (02:59.694)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:12.876)

Yeah.

Dana K White (03:20.723)

was writing about this, thinking it was a way to stay focused on my home and be able to figure that out so I could then start writing about other things that I actually had any desire whatsoever to write about, which was not this. And I was anonymous in the beginning because I didn’t tell anybody what I was doing. I didn’t even tell my husband. I was so, this was my shameful secret. Like my clutter was my shameful secret. And a lot of…

Kathi Lipp (03:30.538)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (03:44.556)

Yeah.

Dana K White (03:50.279)

my actual change came from the fact that people started reading what I was doing. And while I assumed that they were gonna say, well, get off the internet, you’re a horrible person, right? Instead, what they said was, these are my thoughts, these are my struggles, these are the same things that go through my head, the same things that I do. And so knowing I was not alone was actually the most powerful thing in being able to change.

Kathi Lipp (04:02.368)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (04:06.413)

Yeah.

Dana K White (04:17.809)

Because what I saw, like, so this was back in 2009, remember the blogging days, right? And when people would leave a comment, you would click on their name on Blogger and you could see a little profile about them, right? And I started to see that these were highly creative women, like artists and poets and lots of theater arts teachers. I was a theater arts teacher, right? Like before I had kids. so like I…

Kathi Lipp (04:23.704)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (04:38.23)

Yes.

Dana K White (04:47.867)

there was this common thread. They were also very highly successful women, right? And so I saw that, okay, so this creative side of me that I’ve always been like, thank you God for making me creative, right? Was directly related to my struggles with clutter. And when I saw that, it helped me accept that this struggle is part of how my brain works. And I like my brain, it’s a little weird, you know? I like it.

Kathi Lipp (05:01.44)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (05:13.112)

Yes. Right? Yes.

Dana K White (05:18.373)

except for this issue. And when I realized that, it gave me permission to say, okay, I don’t have to feel like a failure because traditional organizing advice doesn’t work for me, right? Because the people writing that have very different brains than mine, right? And so, exactly. So I think the shame issue often comes down to the disconnect between I am a successful, intelligent woman.

Kathi Lipp (05:28.876)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (05:34.125)

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (05:47.224)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (05:48.765)

But if you look at my house, you’re gonna assume that I’m an idiot. I know that sounds awful and harsh, right? But that’s the way I felt like. Like you look at my house and you think, you would never assume that I was a successful, intelligent woman, right? And so this disconnect of like, but I can do things. I can figure things out. I am able to go out there and lead and do things. And people who knew me in the workplace,

Kathi Lipp (05:57.835)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:08.919)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:12.802)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dana K White (06:18.969)

never thought I was a horrible disorganized mess at home. people would tell me they were very surprised to find that out about me. And so it becomes this shameful secret that you wanna hide. And then also makes you feel bad about yourself. Because you’re like, this seems to be easy for everybody else in the world. This doesn’t make sense with who I am. Right, so anyway, I think that’s where a lot of that shame comes from is that disconnect.

Kathi Lipp (06:25.474)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (06:29.6)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:41.324)

Yes.

Dana K White (06:43.031)

of I can do things, but I for some reason cannot do this thing. Like of all things, this is the thing I can’t do. What? Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (06:50.122)

Right, and let me just affirm so much of what you’re saying. Cluttery people are the most creative people I have encountered. They are intelligent and they are incredibly kind. Like they would give you anything that they could find in their house if they could find it. And so, yeah, so.

Dana K White (07:06.247)

Yes.

Dana K White (07:13.23)

And they brought it into their house thinking of what your needs might be in the future. Right? Like, and I think that’s where so much of the disconnect comes in. You know, I mean, we’re gonna, you my new book is spiritually focused. My other books have no spiritual content in them, right? But this, the idea that,

Kathi Lipp (07:18.208)

It’s so true. It is so true.

Kathi Lipp (07:28.632)

Right.

Dana K White (07:35.741)

people are collecting that they have clutter because they’ve been collecting things out of greed or selfishness is just not true. And so when somebody’s coming at it from that angle of like, okay, well, you need to be less greedy and less selfish. Well, like you said, you know, in your experience working with people who struggle with clutter, they are not greedy or selfish. That is not the reason that this clutter is here. And so then if people are coming at it trying to be helpful from that angle, then I already feel misunderstood.

Kathi Lipp (07:41.868)

No, it’s not.

Kathi Lipp (07:53.75)

Mm-hmm. No, no.

Dana K White (08:05.243)

I already feel like you don’t get it, so therefore you’re not gonna be able to help me. And so then that’s where it becomes even more shameful when you feel like, okay, I think I’m doomed to this.

Kathi Lipp (08:05.303)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:16.566)

Yes, absolutely. There’s no way out. I’m going to be like this for the rest of my life because I’ve tried everything and it doesn’t work. And you know, when you I love what you were saying there because oftentimes I would bring things into my house and or I would ignore messes in my house because I was out there in the world doing so much and then my house would get the last bit of attention because I was

Dana K White (08:25.553)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (08:46.87)

I was giving everything away out in the world. And I felt like I had to do that because of this shame. so it’s this, it’s this piling on top of each other, on top of each other. And it’s heartbreaking for so many people. And so, okay, I, here’s what I want to do. I want to take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to understand what, what does Jesus think about this? What does God think about this? Because

You know, I think about verses about put all things in order and things, you know, God is a God of order. We see that everywhere. But, and then when we try to reconcile that with who we are, man, the shame can just, it can even go deeper. So we’re gonna take a quick break, listen to a couple of commercials, pay a couple of bills, and then we’re gonna come back and Dana is going to lay it all out for us, friends. Okay, we’ll be right back.

Okay, I am back with Dana K. White. And first of all, I love the title of your new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House. But Dana, my people are gonna say, yes, He does. Because God is a God of order. know, God wants us to be hospitable and bring people into our spaces. So like, Dana, you are telling us untruths.

Dana K White (10:07.859)

Okay, so yeah, but I mean it. Like I absolutely mean that, that Jesus doesn’t. No, I’m glad you brought up, because it is a reaction, right? Like it’s not what I thought, but I’m like, here’s what I, the title is not, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House So Don’t Bother. Like that’s not at all the title, right? The title is meant.

Kathi Lipp (10:11.51)

Do you love that I called you a liar right here on the podcast?

It is, right?

Kathi Lipp (10:32.514)

Yeah.

Dana K White (10:35.275)

And I mean what I say because nothing I do gets me closer to God, right? Like I do not earn his love. He is looking at my heart. And when He’s looking at my heart, especially because He created my brain on purpose, it’s not defective, it was not a mistake.

that He made me in a way that physical stuff tends to get out of control more easily for me than for someone else, right? That’s not a mistake. So when He’s looking at me, He’s like, I know that, right? I know this is a struggle. It doesn’t mean that I don’t work on it, but it doesn’t mean that it has any effect whatsoever on my relationship with Jesus, right? Because when God looks at me, if I am a follower of Jesus, He’s seeing Jesus’ righteousness on me. And if I think that,

Kathi Lipp (11:23.862)

Right.

Dana K White (11:32.775)

that He’s seeing me and what I, you know, have accomplished and what I have done and that that’s getting me toward Him, then I don’t actually get what He’s looking for, right? And so then that’s actually what I wouldn’t say frustrates, but you know what I mean? Like that’s the thing that keeps me from God, is not understanding what it is that He’s actually asking of me. So it’s very important to understand that because so many times over the years, right?

Kathi Lipp (11:42.669)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (11:49.078)

Right.

Dana K White (12:01.768)

is people can say things like, but God is a God of order. But the Proverbs 31 woman, you know, she wasn’t lazy. And you’re like, okay, but

Kathi Lipp (12:08.024)

Yeah, gosh, yeah.

Dana K White (12:15.299)

let’s have the full conversation there. Let’s have the full conversation about Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. It doesn’t mean that you don’t worry about it, but you don’t worry about it as a way to please God, right? And so when we take that shame away, because for me, I assumed when I started this whole deslobification process, I was like, I thought that at some point, God was going to show me the verse I had missed, or the spiritual concept that I had not understood, and I was going to go,

Kathi Lipp (12:17.196)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (12:28.557)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (12:35.192)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (12:44.667)

Okay, now it’s all easy, right? Like I thought I was missing something spiritually. And instead He said, Dana, I have never been upset about your messy house. I want you to give Me your heart, like all of you to use as I see fit, right? And so give Me everything, but not as a way to earn Jesus’ love, right? And so it’s this thing of removing that shame.

Kathi Lipp (12:47.83)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (12:58.35)

Hmm.

Dana K White (13:13.115)

And removing the shame is actually the thing that allows me to move forward. Like we were talking about, like shame is such an issue. It’s so debilitating. Shame is not motivating at all. It is not. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (13:19.266)

Yes, it is not. And shame is not going to change you in the positive and it’s not gonna change anybody you love. Because I’m sure so many of us who are listening here were shamed about our messy rooms, were shamed about our backpacks in school. I remember, I haven’t remembered this in 40 years, but I remember a teacher bringing me to the front of class.

Dana K White (13:30.653)

Yes.

Dana K White (13:36.403)

Yep.

Kathi Lipp (13:48.16)

and making me unpack my backpack. Like I have repressed that, right? Right?

Dana K White (13:52.275)

makes me wanna cry because I, well, and here’s the thing. I understand that they think they’re being helpful, right? Like I understand that. And yet, and yet it backfires because you, I’m assuming, felt very misunderstood, right? Because if the teacher thought that was gonna help you, then they didn’t understand the problem. And it’s not like you loved having a messy backpack, right? I did not like any of my messy spaces.

Kathi Lipp (14:00.3)

Right. And yet.

Kathi Lipp (14:12.119)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (14:16.766)

Right. No, no.

Dana K White (14:22.001)

but for you to come in and say, you know, this is, that God is a God of order. Well, that doesn’t actually give me anything to go on. Like it doesn’t help at all. Besides the fact, I’m just gonna say real quick that the God is a God of order.

Kathi Lipp (14:30.423)

Right.

Dana K White (14:37.209)

The actual context there of when that phrase is said in the Bible is talking about how to run a meeting at church. Right? And I just want to be clear, like, that’s actually my superpower. I am really good at running meetings. Like, like you could ask me to run a meeting of world leaders. And while I might be a little intimidated, I would absolutely be like, well, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (14:54.03)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:03.619)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (15:05.843)

because guess what I’m really good at? I’m good at that. Well, here’s the problem. If I do understand that context and I go, I am really good at this thing and God is a God of order. this is my way to please God, right? I’m off track. I’m off track. And so either way that you go and you hear a lot of, I’ve heard the, you know, the message of this book from the other perspective of like, okay, I couldn’t stop cleaning.

Kathi Lipp (15:20.076)

Right? Yeah.

Dana K White (15:34.125)

And God finally showed me that I never cared about your messy house and so it’s okay to relax and let people see imperfection. And I’m like, that’s truth. However, that is not truth that is helpful for me. Because I would hear that story and I would think, well, I would sure love to have that problem. And so what about for me as the person who felt defective and, you know,…

Kathi Lipp (15:34.125)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (15:43.116)

Yeah. Yes.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (15:52.832)

Yes. Yes.

Dana K White (16:00.879)

had so much shame, like how does this apply to me? And that’s what this book is. It’s like, how do we apply that to this? As I was never looking at that, whether it’s you’re obsessed with a perfection or you’re, you know, feel completely overwhelmed and not able to do it. taking away that shame is the thing that allows us to move forward. I feel like I’ve been rambling. I’m sorry. You can stop me.

Kathi Lipp (16:21.12)

No, you are not rambling. You are spitting truth, my friend. You are spitting truth. And you know, I have a lot of people on this podcast and we can’t always talk this deeply about the concepts because either they have not experienced it like you and I have, or they’re still figuring it. But when we start to see, it’s two sides of the same problem.

when somebody has a house that is so clean that you don’t want to sit down because I just yesterday saw on TikTok a woman who said, yeah, we don’t sit on our couch with outside clothes. And I’m like, what’s outside clothes? And literally it was her husband’s jeans. He looked like he might be an engineer or something like that. So that’s one side of the issue. And then this other where,

Dana K White (17:09.489)

hilarious yeah

Kathi Lipp (17:17.504)

I think what people think is that people who struggle with clutter struggle with this mess are are lazy. And here’s the thing I don’t I have not met anybody with this problem who is lazy. I have met people who struggle they don’t know what the next step is. Maybe they’re on the spectrum with ADHD or they’re depressed like I’ve met a lot of people

who have these auxiliary situations, I’ve yet to meet the lazy person.

Dana K White (17:52.947)

Yeah, and that’s the thing is, when you Google, is cleanliness next to godliness in the Bible, right? There’s all these different blurbs and even if you don’t go and actually read any of them, the vast majority will say no, but the concept is true and then they will mention the Proverbs 31 woman. Well, guess what is not in Proverbs 31? What is never mentioned? Cleanliness, the state of her home,

Kathi Lipp (18:00.994)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (18:13.486)

Mmm.

Dana K White (18:22.355)

clutter, nothing. Nothing is even mentioned. So I go through the whole Proverbs 31 verse by verse and I’m like, it’s not here, but…

Kathi Lipp (18:28.066)

Yeah. Yes.

Dana, are you telling me that the Proverbs 31 girl is our girl? Like, could she be our girl?

Dana K White (18:38.223)

I’m gonna tell you something. She reminds me of the people who have clutter, right? Like, because she is so focused on other people, she is so industrious, she works hard all the time. I’m like, you know, it’s like when people talk about, well, the Mary and Martha thing and blah, blah. And I’m like, guess who I relate more to? The busy one.

Kathi Lipp (18:44.524)

Yes! Yes!

Kathi Lipp (18:58.341)

mm-hmm. Right, absolutely.

Dana K White (19:01.841)

Right, like I relate more to her. The people I know who don’t have clutter issues tend to be able to relax in those situations a lot more than me. And so I’m like, it’s this thing where there’s assumptions that if your house is messy, it’s because you’re lazy. And then knowing that that’s not true and yet not being able to convince anyone that that’s not true because the state of your home makes everybody, so you know, it’s like this bad thing of like, we have to get in there and we have to speak the truth about this. And like, I really do like.

Kathi Lipp (19:08.983)

Yes!

Dana K White (19:29.849)

She reminds me of the women who I know and possibly myself even in certain situations, but like the women I know who are the go-to woman that everybody depends on, that everybody looks to to be able to organize any event and do anything. And yet you don’t know what her house actually looks like. And so I’m not saying she was messy. I’m just saying that’s not helpful because it’s not actually in there. Like don’t use her as this.

Kathi Lipp (19:32.174)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:45.792)

Yes.

Dana K White (19:57.085)

thing to aspire to, because anyway, again, shame is not motivating. It’s not helpful.

Kathi Lipp (20:01.228)

I love what you’re saying. And what you’re saying is all these things that we’ve heard before, what is actually helpful in that? That’s the question. And it’s also the question with my clutter oftentimes, what’s actually helpful in here? But with this truth, what is actually helpful? So tell me, what is actually helpful?

Dana K White (20:09.607)

Yes. Yes.

Dana K White (20:14.973)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:26.188)

when it comes to motivating me to get decluttered, motivating my listener to get decluttered.

Dana K White (20:26.556)

Yeah.

Dana K White (20:32.125)

So once the shame is gone, then we can actually do stuff, right? Like we can actually do the things. Although I’m a big fan of going ahead and doing the thing and that’s actually what helps the shame be gone, right? Is that. So like I have my no mess decluttering process and we start with trash, right? And that’s one of those things that sometimes, I mean, you’re an author so you know reviews can be wonderful and awful, right? I choose to view bad reviews as good as long as they actually like give some real information. Like if they say,

Kathi Lipp (20:34.798)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:42.455)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:54.286)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (21:01.217)

Guess.

Dana K White (21:01.861)

when people say stuff like, can’t believe people need to be told to start with trash, who has trash? And I’m like, well, guess what? Now the person who read that review knows that this book is actually what they need, right? So yeah, and so like starting with the trash, like this is the stuff that somebody who would never even think to just randomly set down, you know, a string cheese wrapper as opposed to putting it in the trash, like I have no idea that that thing left my hand, right?

Kathi Lipp (21:12.192)

It’s so true.

Kathi Lipp (21:31.36)

Right, absolutely.

Dana K White (21:31.439)

And so we start with the trash, we go through the process. How do we start? We start with the very, very easiest decision-free stuff, right? So like trash is actual trash. It’s not, I’m not gonna convince you that it’s trash. We’re not gonna call your mom and say, would you say this is trash? I’m not gonna analyze what my mom would say if she was here. It’s all just like the actual trash. And if I’m helping you and I’m like, how do they not see that’s trash?

Kathi Lipp (21:51.758)

Right.

Dana K White (22:01.437)

I’m not gonna say anything, because we will get to it over the course of the process, right? But it’s that how do we actually help? We give real actual strategies where I don’t consider, and I don’t know how you view this, but like for me, because I was doing figuring this out in my own home and what was helpful for me and what wasn’t, it is actually not helpful for me as a highly creative person to ask myself if I’ll ever use something. Like, because I can come up with a reason.

Kathi Lipp (22:05.442)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (22:26.029)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (22:30.574)

goodness, I was just consulting with somebody today and she’s like, I don’t know why I keep this and I said, because your brain can come up with 700 possible uses, none of which you probably will ever do. But you could. Yeah.

Dana K White (22:38.429)

Yes, right, right.

Dana K White (22:43.899)

And if I focus on what, if I could ever use it, then all my mental energy is going toward all these possibilities. And that’s not actually helpful. Like nothing is happening here in this situation. So instead I start with trash and then I ask myself my real defining decluttering question is if I needed this item, where would I look for it first? Right? So there’s no, there’s no like, is it a good thing? That’s all good. Cause why would I have it in my house if it wasn’t right? So, you know, but if I needed this item, where would I look for it first?

Kathi Lipp (22:52.438)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (23:01.888)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:07.2)

Yeah, exactly.

Dana K White (23:14.131)

And that’s not where would it be? Like those are two different questions. Because if I already know where it would be, it left in step two, which is dealing with the stuff that I already know what to do with it, right? So by the time I’m asking myself the question, where would I look for this earring? Okay, cause I took them out cause they were banging on my headphone things. Yeah. But if I was asking myself, you know, where would I look first for these earrings? If I needed these earrings.

Kathi Lipp (23:24.098)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (23:29.836)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you.

Dana K White (23:43.119)

It is literally an answer, an instinctual answer. I may not trust my instincts yet, but that’s how I’m gonna learn to trust them, right? If I needed my earrings, where would I look for them first? And it’s wherever I would picture myself going at the beginning of what I assume is gonna be a three hour search for my earrings, right? And so where’s the first, what’s the drawer that I would open? What’s the cabinet I would walk to?

Kathi Lipp (23:45.56)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:54.509)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (24:04.065)

Mmm, where’s the first step?

Yeah, right.

Dana K White (24:11.879)

where is the first place where I look? And then I take them there right now. I don’t set them aside to do later or put it in a keep box that I’ll go put everything, because then I would have to go back through these questions again, right? So that’s, even though it feels less efficient to take it there now, that’s actually the transformational step, right? So I’m gonna take it there now and I’m gonna face the reality of that space. Is there any room for these?

Kathi Lipp (24:16.919)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:23.563)

Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:33.848)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (24:38.294)

It’s a great question. Yeah.

Dana K White (24:38.331)

And if there’s not, if there’s not any room for them, then what am I willing to get rid of in order to make the room for these? And if I’m not willing to get rid of anything, then these actually aren’t as important to me and I can let them go, right? But I’m gonna face that reality when I get to that space because I took it there now and I acted on that and I’m gonna base everything in actual facts outside of the things I could come up with.

Kathi Lipp (24:46.573)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (25:03.757)

Yes.

Dana K White (25:06.639)

Because the creativity, yes, it’s my superpower, it’s also my downfall, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (25:10.99)

It’s your kryptonite. It’s your superpower and your kryptonite and we don’t want to squash the creativity in these beautiful human beings who God created that way, but we also want you to be able to function in your house and

Dana K White (25:28.261)

Exactly. Well, and I hear from people all the time, because I say all the time, I’m like, you can keep anything, but you can’t keep everything. Right. And so, and people are like, okay, well, cause I thought you were going to come in here and you were going to tell me this was dumb and that was bad and this should go and you shouldn’t have this. And so I’m raring to go. Like I’ve got all these reasons, you know, why I should keep all this stuff. And when you tell me, you can keep anything. You just can’t keep everything. Then I’m like,

Kathi Lipp (25:33.654)

Mm-hmm. It’s so true.

Kathi Lipp (25:46.03)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:51.094)

Right? Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (25:58.885)

Okay, it’s just a shift in your brain that it makes a huge, huge difference.

Kathi Lipp (25:59.981)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (26:04.193)

The way I say it is there’s no morality in keeping or giving that thing away. These things are morally neutral, but what’s gonna serve your life? What’s going to bring you happiness? What’s gonna make you function better? Those are the things that we wanna keep in your house, but we also have to be able to find those things when we need them. And yeah.

Dana K White (26:11.027)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (26:26.919)

Right, which is what happens when you put it in the first place where you would look for it. Then you find it, right? Yeah, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (26:30.922)

It’s, which is brilliant. Yes. I love that so much. How has understanding this changed your life? mean, I know you have this big business, you’re on YouTube, you write the book, but like your life and your home, what is the biggest difference for you now that shame is not the go-to feeling with everything going on in your

Dana K White (26:57.651)

Yeah, so the shame went away as I was working on my house, but as I was working my house, I was realizing that Jesus didn’t care about my messy house, right? Like, there, you know, I always say that’s, I’ve kind of earned the right to write a book called Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House because I’ve written three books about how to keep, get your house under control, you know? So it’s like, I’m not, no, only people who don’t understand and who don’t pay attention can accuse me of saying that it doesn’t matter.

Kathi Lipp (27:09.548)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (27:14.573)

Guess.

Kathi Lipp (27:19.883)

Right?

Dana K White (27:27.217)

Right? I know it matters and I know it matters to the person who’s struggling. Right? What was the question? I don’t know. just… Welcome to my brain.

Kathi Lipp (27:27.714)

Right.

Absolutely. What, Dana, we are so, no wonder our friends keep saying you guys need to hang out together because we are exactly the same person in different fonts. What in your life, now that the shame is not the first thought, like what, what can either you see or the people who live with you see as the biggest difference?

Dana K White (27:41.938)

Right.

Dana K White (27:48.307)

Okay, yeah.

Dana K White (27:58.321)

We can function. So the stuff is not all gone, but it’s, I’ve embraced the reality of my space, right? Like that’s my big thing is like, just embrace the reality of your space. And if I try to keep more stuff than I have space for it, then there’s no hope of my house being under control, right? So the fact that our lives are not inhibited by the state of my home.

Kathi Lipp (27:59.778)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:03.959)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (28:07.65)

Nya.

Kathi Lipp (28:11.682)

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (28:15.757)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:20.59)

Hmm

Yes.

Dana K White (28:23.481)

That is the thing, like, cause you know, you said I write books, I do YouTube. That’s the kind of stuff I like doing. I thought when I started all this, that my goal was to have like a, of course, Pinterest didn’t exist, but you know, like a magazine picture home. Like I just assumed that’s what I want. I love those images. And yet in reality, what I really wanted to do was not be held back by my house. I wanted to be able to be the person who can

Kathi Lipp (28:28.397)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:36.428)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:48.045)

Yeah.

Dana K White (28:52.345)

volunteer at the actual last moment to host something in my home because somebody else’s power went out and there was a plan, you know, for the prom girls to get ready there. And I’m like, you can do it at my house. You know, like, that is something I never could do before, but it was the person I wanted to be. I wanted to be that kind of mom who was like, sure, yes, bring them bring everybody over here. And yet my house was in a state where I couldn’t do that. And to have people over was a two week ordeal.

Kathi Lipp (29:00.866)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (29:04.685)

Right?

Dana K White (29:22.175)

where I would shove everything into the room, the door would lock, and then I would actually clean because I couldn’t have, you know, I wasn’t able to clean with all the clutter everywhere. So yeah, just, lets me be who I wanna be.

Kathi Lipp (29:31.478)

Yeah. You know, and it’s so interesting because yeah, people push back on, you know, my ideas about decluttering all the time. But 20 years ago, I could not have been that person. And last week we had some clients show up and they said, we were so dumb. We booked our hotel room an hour and a half in the opposite direction. Like, well, just spend the night. And they’re like, what? I’m like, yeah, just spend the night. We’re fine. And like,

It didn’t until later that night. I didn’t realize the transformation and the girls coming over and getting ready for prom like to other people That would just be a Tuesday, but for us it says our whole lives have changed and It’s possible. That’s what I want people to hear One Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. I love the the title of your book and guys we’ll have a link to that

Dana K White (30:17.405)

Exactly, Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (30:30.402)

where you can get it at, you know, Amazon or wherever you love to buy books. But also the thing I want you to hear from what Dana has said, what I am saying is this shame free life is possible. You can be the person that invites people into your home. You can be the person who has a last minute overnight guest. You can be the person who says I can volunteer for that.

because I’m not abandoning my home, my home functions, and that makes the rest of my life possible. And it’s how Jesus wants us to live. It’s not about the state of your home, it’s about how you can function in the world with the home you have. And Dana, I love this so much. I traditionally do not read other decluttering books because I…

Dana K White (31:24.359)

Me neither.

Kathi Lipp (31:25.366)

I don’t want to be accused of stealing Dana Kay or Fly Lady or anything like that. But this one I’m going to read because I came in with the questions about how are you going to support this thesis? And I love what you said here because there’s such freedom and it’s such practical freedom too. I love that so much. Dana, thank you so much for being here today.

Dana K White (31:27.591)

I am the exact same way, yes, yep.

Okay, thank you.

Dana K White (31:49.021)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on and I’m just so honored and excited that we finally got to meet.

Kathi Lipp (31:54.342)

I love it. It’s the beginning of a beautiful clutter free relationship. And I love that so much with a little bit of sass, a little bit of mess, because you know what? That’s okay. That’s how I function best. And I know that’s how you function best too. We’re never going to be that Pinterest Martha Stewart. And you know what? God didn’t want us to be that way. And that’s why we are who we are. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life.

Dana K White (31:58.674)

Ha ha!

Dana K White (32:06.428)

Yeah.

Dana K White (32:14.29)

No.

Kathi Lipp (32:24.14)

You’ve always wanted to live.

#685 – Stuck and Overwhelmed? The Real Reason Your Clutter Won’t Budge

Sep 2, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Restore, tips and ideas

Are you worn out from battling clutter and not seeing the progress you’d hoped for? In this heartfelt episode, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo explore the reality of declutter fatigue and why, for so many women, the journey can feel never-ending. If you’re feeling stuck,...

#684 – Decluttering for Real Life: Simple Steps for Busy, Overwhelmed Women

Aug 26, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Is your clutter making a comeback…again? You tidy up, you declutter, but somehow, all those piles and projects sneak right back into your life. If you’ve ever felt defeated when the mess keeps resurfacing, this episode will speak right to your heart. Join Kathi and...

#683 – Declutter Your Bathroom Sink Space (Even With Zero Storage!)

Aug 19, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

Tired of opening your bathroom cabinets only to find chaos staring back at you? You're not alone. In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi teams up with decluttering expert Tonya Kubo to tackle one of the most frustrating spaces in many homes: the bathroom sink...