#649 The 5 Cleaning Habits You Should Build in 2025

#649 The 5 Cleaning Habits You Should Build in 2025

649 – The 5 Cleaning Habits You Should Build in 2025

Do you look at your home and feel overwhelmed by the mess, but the thought of a full-day cleaning marathon makes you want to hide under the covers?

Well, you’re not alone!

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into practical, achievable cleaning strategies that work for real people with real lives. They break down five key habits that can transform how you approach home maintenance, proving that keeping a clean home doesn’t have to be overwhelming or impossible.

Listeners will discover:

  • The “patch cleaning” method: Cleaning small areas instead of waiting to do everything at once
  • How to implement a nightly kitchen reset
  • The room-by-room rotation cleaning approach
  • How to avoid the all-or-nothing cleaning mindset

Listeners will come away with actionable strategies to maintain a cleaner home without feeling stressed or overwhelmed. The episode is a refreshing take on home maintenance that prioritizes realistic, achievable goals over perfection.

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup here and sign up to receive your free ebook featuring four week’s worth of easy meal plans and delicious recipes.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest 

 

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

 

Tonya Kubo Picture
Transcript
Kathi Lipp (00:19.512)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am back. We are with our five daily habits for 2025 and it’s with Tonya Kubo. Hey Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (00:37.018)

Hey there, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (00:38.638)

I know you have a very, very, very businessy podcast. How does it feel to do a very business podcast? And then we’re talking about how to clean toilets and how to organize your sock drawer. Like, do you feel like you get whiplash between your podcasts?

Tonya Kubo (00:56.859)

especially since the recording days are the same usually. But yeah, it’s kind of fun. It’s kind of fun to have such a difference.

Kathi Lipp (01:00.552)

no, I didn’t know that.

You get to use very, yeah, you get to use very different parts of your brain. Yeah. OK, well, we are back and we are talking about a subject that we don’t talk about very often, and that is cleaning. some people, people always tell me I have a cleaning podcast and I’m like, no, I do not have a cleaning podcast. That’s that’s not who I am. But I have a decluttering podcast and you have to get, you know.

Tonya Kubo (01:10.714)

That is true.

Tonya Kubo (01:27.683)

Ew.

Tonya Kubo (01:32.057)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:34.164)

It’s it’s great to declutter before you clean. So you actually have something to clean but I will be honest with you One i’m much better about cleaning than I used to be and two I do have somebody who comes twice a month that does like all the floors all the the you know, the big scrubs, you know, she’s the one who is Down on her hands and knees for the bathtub like that. That just is not my favorite thing. And so i’ve

Tonya Kubo (02:02.97)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (02:04.072)

I’ve decided to exchange a certain amount of money to not have to do that. And by the way, her name is Kelly and she is, she has become a wonderful friend and she loves to clean. Like she says, you know, every once in a while I just can’t sleep. So I get up and clean. I’m like, that has never ever happened to me. No, no. But here’s, here’s what I know. Two things. One.

Tonya Kubo (02:22.566)

Happened to me in my entire life, Kathi Lipp. Never.

Kathi Lipp (02:32.942)

Kelly is not here every day, which makes me very sad. I wish she was here every day. My life would be so much better if Kelly was here every day, but that is not our lives. Also, there are times when Kelly can’t come. We had a five month period this year where it was me and Roger, because she had some shoulder surgery, so it was up to us.

Tonya Kubo (02:37.904)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:00.972)

For most of my life, it’s been up to me. And so I’ve had to learn some things and I know that one of the things that really gets me, don’t, tell me if you play these mental games. First of all, one of my mental games when it comes to cleaning is, well, it’s not really dirty. I’m gonna wait till it’s really dirty, cause I’ll feel so much satisfaction when it’s clean. Has that, that, right? my goodness. my goodness. Then I also think,

Tonya Kubo (03:22.981)

Instant gratification!

Kathi Lipp (03:31.246)

it’s so dirty. It’s going to take so long. I don’t have enough time. And so I can’t do it. I swing wildly between those two things and have for years and am just now coming to terms with how to deal with it. And I feel like I had a massive breakthrough today that I I’m going to share with us on number two, but no, yes, number two. Yes. But let me do number one first.

Tonya Kubo (03:35.76)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (03:44.326)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:57.45)

I feel like this is the secret tip that we hear everybody talk about, but it really has made the biggest difference in my life. And that is making my bed. I know, okay, what’s your face, Tonya?

Tonya Kubo (04:12.518)

no, I’m sorry. Yes, making your bed is not something we do here in the Kubo household. It is not, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (04:19.712)

Okay, that’s okay. Maybe it has a different psychological effect on different people. Here’s how I think about making my bed. One, I have just made at least a quarter of my room, like decluttered and clean in two minutes. So that makes me super happy. Two, Roger loves getting into a made bed. I like it. He loves it. And he is, I will say,

Tonya Kubo (04:26.533)

Ha ha ha.

Tonya Kubo (04:44.282)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (04:49.646)

Probably 50 % of the time the bedmaker in our house and was not that way when we got married so and then Three it’s a surface that I can fold clothes on It is a surface that I can do projects on for some reason that helps me but that two-minute win Clicks off my day. Is there something like that? That is like, okay if I do this I feel better about the rest of my house

Tonya Kubo (04:52.909)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (05:02.714)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (05:18.632)

yeah, for me it’s cleaning off the kitchen table. Like, Brian will tell you hands down, the state of the kitchen table has a direct correlation to my mental health.

Kathi Lipp (05:21.29)

Okay, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (05:29.926)

Interesting. Okay. Okay. It is the opposite for me. Like it has no correlation to my mental health. So that is fascinating. That is fascinating. So you know, whatever that is for you, that cleaning habit that feels like it kicks off all the other things. Make that happen. Okay, number two, this is where I feel like I had my big aha moment today.

Tonya Kubo (05:37.845)

Yeah, no, for me it’s the kitchen table.

Tonya Kubo (05:54.85)

Okay, we want to hear it, Kathi. We want to hear it.

Kathi Lipp (05:58.146)

patch at a time and Let me explain what that means because it means nothing to you right now So you’ve been in my upstairs bathroom. We did a beautiful remodel on that bathroom It makes me so happy every time I go in there the one thing that maybe if I could change on that remodel Would be the floor. I don’t know if you remember the floor it is it’s like

Tonya Kubo (06:02.47)

Hmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:20.571)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:24.76)

I just know it heats up and I love that about it.

Kathi Lipp (06:27.402)

Okay, yes, I’m sorry. I’m saying the wrong thing. That floor I love. It’s the shower floor that Yeah, so it is like a pebbly thing and it gets these spots on them and so I bought a tool that is basically a scrubber. It’s a it’s a scrubber that swirls around and it’s electric

Tonya Kubo (06:34.642)

okay.

Kathi Lipp (06:57.046)

So it’s almost like a mop, but it’s a scrubber. But I’m always telling myself I don’t have time to do the entire thing, right? So it just goes on with the spots and it just never looks exactly right. So this morning I’m like, I’m just gonna do six square inches. I’m just gonna do six square inches. And then tomorrow I can do another six square inches because I never seem to have a morning where it’s like,

Tonya Kubo (06:59.546)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (07:19.846)

you

Kathi Lipp (07:26.54)

wow, this is a morning where I have lots of time to clean. Like that morning has not materialized in my life. So I did the six square inches and I’m like, that was easier than I remember. So I did another six square inches and I did another and it took me about four whole minutes to clean the shower floor. But I was okay with just doing the six square inches today and then tomorrow doing another six square inches.

Tonya Kubo (07:40.693)

Mmm.

Tonya Kubo (07:55.183)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:55.82)

And we talked about this with decluttering on our last podcast that all or nothing feeling that all like I have to do the whole kitchen counter. Well, no, you don’t actually have to do the whole kitchen counter. You know, do you do you feel like you don’t clean because you feel like you have to do the kitchen sink, the kitchen counter, the stovetop? It all has to be done at once. And I have come more to a rotation theory like

Tonya Kubo (08:01.84)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (08:08.325)

No.

Tonya Kubo (08:18.896)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:26.146)

I can clean the sink after we do dishes at night and then that’ll be great. I can also do the counters after we do dishes, but maybe I’ll do the stovetop in the morning because I’ll have a little bit more time to do that. I think it’s okay. Not everything has to be clean all at the same time. You know, there are two days a year where that has to happen Christmas and Thanksgiving because you have people coming over. Everything else is optional.

Tonya Kubo (08:39.354)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:55.883)

Is there anything that you do by patches? know you do your kitchen counter decluttering by patches anything else like in the cleaning realm?

Tonya Kubo (09:01.584)

Mm-hmm.

Well, like my bathroom is always done in patches. Like I focus on one aspect of the bathroom every day. So, so like the bathroom sink only gets like cleaned once a week. You know, that’s like one example, like do I clear it off? Do I take a baby wipe and wipe it down sometimes? Sure. But there’s like one day a week where it’s like, okay, like yesterday was the day, which is why it’s fresh in my mind. I clean that.

Kathi Lipp (09:07.512)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:11.182)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:17.97)

Mmm, okay, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (09:26.562)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (09:32.3)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (09:33.734)

the bathtub about once a week, once every other week, because we don’t take a lot of baths. So over there, tends to be the dust. But it’s just every day I go, what needs to be done here?

Kathi Lipp (09:38.179)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:41.9)

Yes, absolutely.

Kathi Lipp (09:46.838)

Right and you know, I hear these people online who talk about I just have my routine every day and I do the exact same thing So that my kitchen is always in perfect order that will never be me. It will never ever be me That is not the life I live And so i’m okay with that

Tonya Kubo (09:53.318)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (10:03.62)

Yeah, I think it just, it just depends. Like it depends on a lot, right? Like I know people who genuinely cannot fall asleep at night if they know there’s a dirty dish in their sink. There are a lot of things, Kathi, that keep me up at night. Dirty dishes in my sink is just not one of them.

Kathi Lipp (10:13.591)

Great.

Kathi Lipp (10:17.878)

Yes. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (10:24.138)

It’s not one of them. It is not one of them. so, and it’s okay if you’re that person like Kelly who cleans my house, that’s her. And she has skills that I do not have. I wish that I had been born with some of those skills. I just don’t have them. But you know, the reason you want to be clean, one is because yeah, we want it to look nice. We want it to feel nice. But two, we’re trying to keep people alive, you know? So like things that keep people alive.

Tonya Kubo (10:29.53)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (10:48.944)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:52.014)

You know, disinfecting the counters, disinfecting the sink. Like those things are important to me, but having a spotless refrigerator every day of the year is not as important to me. I do it on a, you know, at least once a month I’m going in there kind of cleaning things out. If there’s a spill, I’m cleaning it up. But I’m just trying to be realistic with the life I actually live and keeping on top of it. Okay. Number three.

Tonya Kubo (10:58.0)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:09.733)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:19.754)

A nightly kitchen reset. you know, we’ve talked about this before. Roger does the dishes. I, I clean the kitchen. And so I am just doing a spritz and swipe, you know, spritz, spritz, swipe it down spritz. It’s not like a deep cleaning on TikTok all the time. There are these videos of people going in with steam cleaners. like, what are you doing? Are you butchering in your kitchen? Like, why do you need that deep of a clean?

Tonya Kubo (11:32.07)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:36.229)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:50.094)

The other thing that I like to do is I am going back to number two patch at a time if there’s something on the floor I’m getting out the Swiffer mop and I’m just doing that spot and You know, it’s I’m not doing a full kitchen mop all the time. I we just don’t live that kind of life We did at one point, especially when we had two small kids in the golden retriever There was a lot of mopping going on. But now it’s more getting that

Tonya Kubo (11:55.108)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (12:02.223)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (12:08.048)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:14.703)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (12:19.086)

But the nightly kitchen reset is just putting things away It’s wiping things down and then maybe one extra thing like yesterday I noticed that the inside of the microwave was not great So it was wiping that down or maybe the front of the refrigerator. I don’t know I don’t know how it happens, but it’s usually after I’ve been cooking for a while I go to Open up the refrigerator. I’m like, why does that handle?

Tonya Kubo (12:33.712)

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:48.61)

Feel crumbly like that’s not a good feeling so i’m just gonna do that But i’m not gonna do usually all of that at the same time So there is a bit of a reset, but it’s not a full reset every night So for you, it’s the kitchen table Do you have in your perfect world? Is the kitchen table completely cleared off or is there something on it? It’s it’s a flat surface that makes you

Tonya Kubo (12:50.406)

Hmm.

Tonya Kubo (13:00.846)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (13:05.007)

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (13:10.02)

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (13:13.59)

It is naked! I want a naked kitchen table.

Kathi Lipp (13:18.182)

I love it so much. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break. We’re gonna come back with our last two things like, is one of these a habit that you could pull out for 2025? Because even if you can incorporate one of these things into your routine, it’s gonna make your life so much better. Okay, we’ll be right back.

Okay, we are back with our five habits for 2025. Okay, number four, a bathroom wipe down. So you said that you don’t like wipe down everything every night. I do tend to do that because we are dirty, filthy pigs, Tonya. I don’t know what it is, but the toothpaste, the grimy, I don’t know what it is. We’re just gross.

Tonya Kubo (13:51.974)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (14:03.47)

Yeah, so here’s my problem, right, with wiping things down is I’m the first person who goes to bed. I go to bed a good two hours before anybody else in my house. So I used to have a routine where I would wipe everything down. You know, I’d wipe down the kitchen, wipe down, because I don’t wash the dishes either. Let’s be very honest about this. Like that’s a Brian thing. But you know, I’d go in, wipe down the kitchen, wipe down the bathroom. But what would happen is I will wake up and there will be toothpaste

Kathi Lipp (14:13.527)

Wow.

Kathi Lipp (14:17.74)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (14:32.376)

like hanging off the edges of the sink because three people brushed their teeth after I went to bed and I got very grumpy waking up in the morning to a sink that did not look like it did when I went to bed that night.

Kathi Lipp (14:34.888)

Hahaha!

Kathi Lipp (14:41.342)

Right, right.

Kathi Lipp (14:50.208)

Right, right, right, right. We also have another issue that you have experienced. If I don’t wipe down that sink on a regular basis, it turns blue. And that’s not the color I want for my sink. We have copper and yeah, we’ve got something, I don’t know. It’s.

Tonya Kubo (15:07.876)

I was like, I would describe it as a teal, but let’s not have the blush versus bashful argument on the show. But it is, yeah, it’s kind of a pretty blue-green, but not really what you’re looking for with the house.

Kathi Lipp (15:11.085)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (15:14.9)

Right, yeah, it’s not the color.

It’s beautiful. Not what I’m looking for. Yes, absolutely. So I do tend to wipe those things down and yeah, I do like to wake up to a clean sink too. Now it’s harder for you because you have four people in your bathroom. I just have Roger and Roger’s neater than me. Let’s just be honest.

Tonya Kubo (15:25.861)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:34.882)

Yes, four people, one bathroom.

Tonya Kubo (15:39.662)

And I will say one thing I do twice a day, right? Before I go to bed and then when I wake up in the morning is I pick up all the things that have been left on the floor in the bathroom and I put those in the dirty laundry. Cause most of it it’s like towels. Why can nobody put their pants and their underpants in the hamper? I don’t know, but I’m picking up everybody’s pants, putting them where they go.

Kathi Lipp (15:49.056)

Mm-hmm. Mm, yeah, smart.

Kathi Lipp (16:07.027)

bless their hearts, we love them. We love them so much.

Tonya Kubo (16:08.677)

We do love them. But, you know, I don’t want to trip over stuff.

Kathi Lipp (16:14.063)

Yep, I totally get it. Okay. Number five Is a room by room rotation So I don’t do this perfectly but I do it pretty much every day where i’m just going to go spend Five to 15 minutes cleaning something up now one thing I do have and some people might consider this a luxury. I consider it a necessity I have a set of cleaning supplies on each floor so

Tonya Kubo (16:22.63)

Mmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:41.762)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (16:43.686)

In upstairs, have all the toilet cleaner. Well, let’s be honest, in each bathroom, I have toilet bowl cleaner. I have the wipe down stuff. I have the shower cleaner. I also have on each floor of the house, my handy vac and a vacuum. And that makes a huge difference because if I had to take a vacuum up and down the stairs, nothing would ever happen. It would never happen. It just would not happen.

Tonya Kubo (16:51.354)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:07.568)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:11.872)

And so I have those supplies on each floor and I have supplies like we have a set of supplies in our bathroom and then in our other bathroom. And that makes a difference. But I just spend five to 15 minutes in a different room. Now we have a couple of rooms that we don’t use pretty regularly and I’ve closed those off. So I don’t really count those, but we have the kitchen, the living room, the dining room, our bedroom, my office, Roger’s office and all the bathrooms.

Tonya Kubo (17:21.274)

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:41.71)

You know every day I’ll just pick a room that’s like making me a little insane and just spend five to fifteen minutes like Roger’s Office bathroom I can clean that whole thing in about five minutes. It’s it’s the world’s smallest bathroom. It doesn’t have a shower or anything like that. But you know my bathroom that’s gonna take you know I’m not gonna spend a half hour 45 minutes on it

Tonya Kubo (17:47.236)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:56.238)

Right. Yes. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (18:08.386)

I’m just gonna do 15 minutes to get it back into fighting order. Now, if you’re cleaning your whole house and you have a huge house, you’re gonna need to dedicate more time to that. But Roger is very invested in the happy marriage and me and him, by the way, like every minute I’m cleaning, he would be cleaning too, because that’s just how our marriage works. And he doesn’t wanna spend all that time cleaning on Saturdays either.

Tonya Kubo (18:12.367)

Right.

Tonya Kubo (18:18.926)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (18:28.368)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (18:34.394)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (18:34.478)

That’s not what he wants to be doing either. And so we’ve decided this investment for us. And by the way, it’s a lot less expensive here than it is other parts of the country. I’m not going to lie. We’re very grateful. And we forced her to take raises because we’re like, you’re actually worth more than you’re charging. So Tonya, any cleaning things that are a habit for you that I, I should have mentioned, but I didn’t because I don’t know the secret life of Tonya Kubo.

Tonya Kubo (18:44.218)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (18:48.162)

Yeah

Tonya Kubo (19:01.99)

Well, I think so for me a lot of it has to do with splitting up the labor, which I think we’ve covered but I would just like to Yeah Well because they’re splitting up the labor between people but also between sessions I think a lot of us claim the way that we were taught and some of us were never taught anything, right? So So it’s this hodgepodge of things, but you don’t actually

Kathi Lipp (19:10.166)

We can never talk about it enough. We can never talk about it enough.

Kathi Lipp (19:22.688)

Mmm. Right. Right.

Tonya Kubo (19:30.874)

have to mop right after you sweep. You could sweep before bed and mop first thing in the morning.

Kathi Lipp (19:33.89)

That’s true. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. You just want to do it before the grime builds up.

Tonya Kubo (19:42.902)

Right. But I mean, that’s a possibility. There have been asked there have been times in my life because there’s been times in my life, like when I was in grad school and working full time and Abby was too, we had a housekeeper. But there have been times in my life where I could I had time to fill the mop bucket and I had time to like mop. But if I had to sweep before I did it, it wasn’t going to happen. So I have mopped a gross, dirty floor that has not been swept and just said, you know what?

Kathi Lipp (19:44.696)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:07.138)

Right.

Yeah, right?

Tonya Kubo (20:12.41)

Whatever ends up in the mop water ends up in the mop water. I’ll dump it out. I’ll sweep afterward. Like, you know, you just have to decide what the priority is. There are days I would prefer personally that we clean the entire fridge, that we empty out the fridge, clean it, wipe down all the shelves prior to going grocery shopping. That would be my perfect scenario. Sometimes, however, all we have time to do is like clear out the leftover containers.

Kathi Lipp (20:17.56)

Yeah?

Kathi Lipp (20:31.214)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:34.904)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:42.316)

Yeah, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (20:43.398)

And I only have time to wipe down the fridge maybe once a week, once a month, once every other month, who knows? So I think those are some things that we need to give ourselves grace to do what works for us right now. I know a lot of our Clutter Free for Life members, because we talk a little bit more about cleaning there, not because it’s a cleaning program, but just we just go deeper in that program. And I know a lot of members, hear like

Kathi Lipp (21:06.979)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (21:10.97)

They hear a parent voice in their head scolding them for being lazy, for being a slob, know, all these ugly names. And so I just think we need to be kind to ourselves and understand that going back to the beginning, right, waiting until it gets super grimy and where we can feel that satisfaction, that actually isn’t kind to ourselves.

Kathi Lipp (21:14.412)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (21:22.179)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:28.43)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:33.834)

It’s not. And you know what? You should listen to those voices if they’re coming over to your house to clean. If they’re showing up with their mop and bucket, go off clean. You can clean however you want. But also, this is why I don’t micromanage how Roger cleans, which is different than how I clean, because different things are important to him. I’m just grateful it’s getting done. I’m grateful. And he’s grateful it’s getting done when I do it. And that’s a beautiful thing.

Tonya Kubo (21:40.006)

Amen.

Tonya Kubo (21:46.548)

Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (21:53.232)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:03.266)

The last thing I’m going to say is when you are feeling really stressed and really behind the two things I would really encourage you to stay on top of if at all possible, it’s laundry and dishes. Like those are the things that are harder. They’re harder if you let them go. And so I, I want you to be able to come downstairs if you live upstairs, you know, and there is room to put dishes in your sink.

Tonya Kubo (22:10.618)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:16.261)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:21.008)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:28.208)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:32.184)

There is room to put dishes if you have a dishwasher. You don’t have to go hunting for clothes. So stay on top of those routines because a dirty floor takes kind of the same amount of time unless it’s really, really bad. But I just want you to be able to live in peace with the processes you have. Tonya, this has been so good. Thank you so much.

Tonya Kubo (22:39.735)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:56.934)

Thanks for having this conversation. This is a good one.

Kathi Lipp (23:00.074)

Yeah, I needed to hear it today too. And friends, thank you for being here. And if you’re feeling behind on cleaning, just know that you are going to be okay. Start to put some little routines into your life that are going to take care of your future self, because that’s what we’re about. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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Hey friends! Have you ever felt so ashamed of your home that you would rather hide than invite anyone over?

In this powerful episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into the emotional landscape of clutter, shame, and isolation. They candidly share personal experiences of feeling trapped by household disorganization and the psychological barriers that prevent people from seeking help.

Listeners will discover:

  • How clutter can lead to social withdrawal
  • The importance of accountability and community in overcoming organizational challenges
  • The benefits of joining the supportive, compassionate Clutter Free for Life community

Listeners will find inspiration in their message of self-acceptance and practical strategies for creating functional, livable spaces and transforming one’s relationship with home organization.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

 

Join Clutter Free For Life

While Clutter Free for Life comes with a plan of action to keep you moving forward in your decluttering journey day after day, the true magic of this membership program is in the community. It’s a program FOR cluttery people BY cluttery people.

It’s a family of cluttery people who want better for themselves and for you. We all understand the emotional weight of clutter and the physical barriers it causes. Clutter Free for Life members have a team of experts who know what it’s like to feel overwhelmed as their guides. Want to see whether the membership is right for you? Check out our info page Clutter Free For Life.

Can you share a personal story about how clutter once isolated you?

Share in the comments!

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Meet Our Guest 

 

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Tonya Kubo Picture
Transcript

 

Well, hey friends, welcome to clutter free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life And I’m back and you know guys, we’re just gonna keep talking about it. We’re gonna keep talking about clutter. We’re gonna keep talking about all the reasons that we need to crush the clutter in our lives, especially as we’re going into the holidays because can we just, okay, I’m gonna say something controversial. Hey, Tonya, by the way. Hey, Tonya’s here. Can I say holidays are their own form of clutter?

 

Tonya Kubo (00:42.622)

Bye.

 

Tonya Kubo (00:49.406)

they totally are.

 

Kathi (00:51.2)

Yeah, that you know, clutter is not always bad. I right now downstairs, I’ve got some clutter on my table. But the clutter on my table is stuff I want. Or I don’t know if I want it, but I have to investigate like there’s mail down there. One of another podcaster I was on her show, we were talking about soups and we were talking about her favorite soup. And she said, my favorite soup is made with chow chow.

 

Tonya Kubo (00:57.49)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (01:21.676)

And I’m like, the only thing I know that is chow chow is either dog foods or dogs. So, do you know what chow chow is? How do you know what chow chow is?

 

Tonya Kubo (01:28.584)

Mm.

 

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Church fundraiser cookbooks?

 

Kathi (01:39.523)

Okay, that is fascinating. So, chow chow, would you explain it because I’ve actually never tasted it. Go for it. Or do you know? I know it’s made with cabbage, right? It’s like a relish with cabbage.

 

Tonya Kubo (01:56.11)

It’s, I think it’s a relish and people put whatever they want in it. It’s one of those things, it reminds me of, you know, it’s like every family has their own way of doing it, but it’s like canned, it’s home canned. And the people who love it, really, really love it. My mom hated it. My mom was like, ehh.

 

Kathi (02:17.48)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

 

Kathi (02:23.128)

So I was having this conversation with another podcaster and she was telling me about her, believe it’s a beef stew recipe that uses chow chow as a main ingredient. And I said, well, that sounds really interesting. She was kind enough to, she went to an Amish store and shipped me two cans of chow chow, or at least that’s what she’s told me. I have not opened the box yet, but I’m gonna go buy the ingredients to make her recipe and.

 

Tonya Kubo (02:27.016)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (02:31.986)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (02:42.162)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (02:47.517)

Right.

 

Kathi (02:52.738)

do that. So it’s clutter, because it’s not put away. But also there’s a category of clutter, where there’s no way to put it yet, because I have never had a chow chow section of my pantry before. And I just like saying chow chow. Can you tell?

 

Tonya Kubo (02:55.676)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (03:07.456)

Right. I know. But remember, our definition of clutter is do you love it? Do you use it? Would you? Could you buy it again? I add the could you part. But for you, you know, it’s like it just needs to find a home.

 

Kathi (03:13.688)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (03:25.408)

So, so Tonya what this is is Schrodinger’s chow chow because I both want it and don’t know if I want it I both will use it and have never used it And I don’t know that I would buy it again because I’ve never bought it once So it is it is Schrodinger’s chow chow and that’s okay. That’s okay

 

Tonya Kubo (03:51.55)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (03:52.362)

We don’t need to we don’t need to have a category for everything there has to be some space in your house for the things that you haven’t decided on but I do want to talk about what clutter can do to us because you and I have both lived with hoarders and I would say one of the the worst part about clutter hoarding is the extreme version obviously

 

Tonya Kubo (04:01.447)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (04:17.662)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (04:20.792)

But even as a young mom, I really struggled with clutter. And I would say it was isolating for me. Like I didn’t want to have people over. I remember thinking, it’s okay to have kids over, but I don’t want to have their parents over until a kid said something about my clutter. And I’m like, well, I don’t want to have anybody over anymore. And I, did you…

 

Tonya Kubo (04:39.154)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (04:48.61)

Did you also experience that isolation with your clutter?

 

Tonya Kubo (04:53.116)

Yeah, well, I mean, you referenced it in your book, Clutter Free. And I remember the first time I read that and realizing, right, like I couldn’t have anybody over when I was a kid. I mean, every now and then my mom would make an exception. But, you know, it was always having to balance like, OK, if I let a friend come over, were they going to go to school and talk about how my house looked? Right. And then, you know, I made a conscious decision, especially when the girls were little, that I wasn’t going to let the condition of my house.

 

Kathi (04:56.492)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (05:13.342)

Right. Yeah, right.

 

Tonya Kubo (05:23.326)

prevent me from inviting people over. So I would just tell people, I’m not cleaning for you. But I had a similar experience when I was pregnant with Abby. And like I had a potluck, a mops potluck at my house. And this one little girl came up to me and she was like, why is your house so messy? And my friend got offended for me. My friend Justine, who you know, got really offended for me. And she was like,

 

Kathi (05:49.358)

Bye now, Justine.

 

Tonya Kubo (05:51.612)

because she works full time. That’s why. she, I remember the little girl, cause she said, you only have one child and my mom has four. Why is your house so messy? My mom keeps our house clean. Which you know she got because her parents were talking about that at home, right?

 

Kathi (06:06.169)

Kathi (06:10.798)

I want to retroactively punch somebody in that family. Maybe not the child, but somebody.

 

Tonya Kubo (06:15.836)

Ha ha ha ha ha!

 

Tonya Kubo (06:20.994)

Right, and so then of course you have my friend Justine Popsin, well because she works full time and your mom doesn’t. Right, which is of course like total mommy-war stuff.

 

Kathi (06:31.106)

Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (06:33.054)

I just looked at it I said, know what? A clean house is a higher priority for your mom and your dad than it is for me and my husband. That’s all.

 

Kathi (06:44.494)

Okay, you gave the highly evolved answer. I might have said something like, well, your mommy’s also on antidepressants, which really helps with the… No, I wouldn’t have said that, but I’d want to say that because there’s no shame in being on antidepressants at all. Let’s be super clear. But also, I would want that little girl to be… I would want to punish her.

 

Tonya Kubo (06:44.572)

End.

 

Tonya Kubo (07:13.15)

Nah, she didn’t know any better.

 

Kathi (07:13.334)

Okay, you know what? I take back what I said about the antidepressants because people I love the most in the world are antidepressants. But that would have been my very unevolved response 30 years ago when I had kids and mops. Okay, that’s cute that I think I had kids. Yeah, 30 years ago. Okay, yeah. So I’m sorry. I’m just I’m, I’m, I’m D detangling stuff.

 

Tonya Kubo (07:30.686)

No.

 

Tonya Kubo (07:36.296)

I apologize for derailing our conversation about isolation.

 

Kathi (07:40.366)

You know, I think about it though, because well, okay, I think we just proved something there, or at least I did my unevolved response proves something. What will make me act terribly faster than shame?

 

Tonya Kubo (07:58.482)

Mm-hmm. yeah, totally. Well, and we have talked about this several times, right? We see that in Clutterfree Academy. I mean, so often, you know, we don’t get a lot of prickly people in there nowadays, right? Because we have such a strong culture and everybody really does want to be kind, but…

 

Kathi (08:01.923)

It

 

Kathi (08:08.47)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Kathi (08:14.272)

No. Mm hmm.

 

Kathi (08:21.027)

Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (08:21.746)

The times that we do get somebody super prickly, it’s because they are so deeply embedded in shame that they can’t see their way out of it. And I feel like, you know, it’s that hurting people hurt. A lot of times they’ll lash out because they want to take the offensive rather than, cause they assume somebody’s going to lash out at them.

 

Kathi (08:28.941)

Yeah.

 

Kathi (08:34.902)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (08:39.81)

Yeah.

 

Kathi (08:44.844)

Yeah, Tonya, have you heard that? Maybe we’ve talked about it on here, the 17 diapers discussion. Have we talked about that? Yeah. And, you know, I think the people who are so hard on the mom who had 17 diapers for her brand newborn, who was doing it all on her own, are the people who either there are two ends of the spectrum. They get their validation from their house being perfect.

 

Tonya Kubo (08:51.034)

Yes, I think a couple episodes ago.

 

Tonya Kubo (09:04.883)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (09:14.846)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (09:15.554)

Or I could never live like that, but they’ve got some something else that they would never ever tell another human being. And so like, well, I’m not 17 diapers, so you’re worse than I am. Well, yeah, but you know, you do this other thing that you would never want the world to know about. it’s clutter can be so isolating, you know, and I think

 

Tonya Kubo (09:29.896)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (09:43.938)

once we get to a certain point, we feel like we can’t ask for help. Like I dug myself into this. I’m going to dig myself out. And we just don’t have a support system. And we get to this place where there’s so much self-criticism. We start to change the chemistry of our brain to believe, can we actually do something about this or not? So we have well articulated the problem. You have also seen my

 

Tonya Kubo (09:51.036)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (10:13.656)

propensity for rage based on something that was said to Tonya maybe 10 years ago, but here we are. Here we are, friends.

 

Tonya Kubo (10:20.594)

Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (10:25.786)

Everybody knows what a loyal friend you are though, Kathi, now.

 

Kathi (10:28.442)

Yeah, I write it done But I want to come back to what are some things that if you’re feeling in that space where you feel like you can’t do anything What are some things that you can actually get done? So we’re gonna take a little break and come right back

 

Okay, friends, we’re talking about the shame and isolation of clutter. And Tonya and I want to come back and talk to you about that. Because we’ve both been there. We know a lot of people who have been there. And we know that there’s a way out because here, I love that story about the man who falls down in the hole. And a you know this story. And I’m sure most of our listeners do but

 

Tonya Kubo (11:06.856)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (11:11.97)

You know, a priest walks by and says, I see you’re down in the hole. And he throws a prayer down to him. And then a politician comes by. He says, I see you’re down in the hole. And he throws a law down to him. And then there’s a police officer who comes by and he throws a law about you’re not supposed to be down in the hole. And then finally, a friend comes by and

 

He jumps in to the hole and the guy in the hole says, why did you do that? Now we’re both stuck in the hole. And the friend who jumped in says, yeah friend, but I know the way out and I can show you. So let’s get out together. like I’ve heard that story for 25 years ever since I first heard it on West Wing and it still gives me chills because I feel like

 

Tonya Kubo (11:56.36)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (12:10.924)

That is so much of what we do in Clutter-Free Academy and Clutter-Free Life is friend, I’ve been in the hole before, but I actually know the way out. Let’s get out together. And maybe you don’t know your way completely out of the hole. And by the way, Tonya, that person from the Mops group would come to my house today and her daughter would say, why is your house so messy?

 

Tonya Kubo (12:12.882)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (12:39.264)

And I would say, you know what, my house is perfect for me. Because apparently her mom had different priorities and that is just fine for her family. But my home is happy, my home is clean. And we get to do a lot of wonderful cooking and loving and entertaining and work in our homes. And I’m really, really grateful. And so if that sounds like how you want your home to be.

 

Tonya Kubo (12:42.333)

Hahaha

 

Tonya Kubo (12:52.488)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (13:08.18)

If that sounds like how the kind of home you would like your kids or your grandkids to be in, I would love to tell you some things that have happened for us. So first of all, accountability. Tonya, how do you feel like accountability works in our groups?

 

Tonya Kubo (13:26.192)

Yeah, well, in ClutterFree Academy, right, the accountability piece is really more on the member. We have some members that want to be, you know, they want support and accountability. And so they post their before and after pictures. They ask specifically like, hey, you know what, can somebody check in on me at the end of the day, make sure I did what I said I would do. Whereas in ClutterFree for life, because it’s a paid membership program,

 

Kathi (13:34.786)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (13:54.608)

and people really are saying, I am going to pay you to boss me around, Tonya Kathi Grace, right? We actually are a little bit more proactive in the accountability. So we’re checking in daily. I am somebody who pays attention if somebody who has been active is quiet and I reach out to them. And usually, I mean, like I’m not like calling them or showing up at their house, okay? I’m not over the top, but I’ll tag them in a post in the group.

 

Kathi (13:59.778)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (14:12.812)

Mmm. Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (14:23.486)

I might drop them an email just to see. Because the thing is, is I know life gets in the way of our best intentions all the time. And what I know is that once you fall out of that routine, sometimes, like for me, all I need to do is skip two days and it’s no longer my routine. It’s no longer a habit. Like that’s how fragile my habits are. And so I know that on day three, it’s very easy to say, well, you know what? I messed up. I’m out for the whole month.

 

Kathi (14:31.63)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

 

Kathi (14:52.332)

Right. If it’s not perfect, then I’m not going to get the rewards of somebody who’s perfect. So I’m out of here.

 

Tonya Kubo (14:52.999)

Right?

 

Tonya Kubo (14:58.982)

Yeah, or you know what? I have let Tonya and Kathi down. I get apology emails left and right. I am so sorry, Tonya, but this happened and that happened and you know what? I’m like, I get it because I felt that way too. And I’m always like, please pick up wherever you left off, just pick it up. We’re here for you. Is there something I can immediately help you with? And I’ll tag them in that post or that coaching session. Because that’s the other thing is,

 

Kathi (15:17.101)

Yeah.

 

Yes.

 

Tonya Kubo (15:28.062)

Our weekly coaching sessions, as much as they are designed to help people with the next step, they’re a great place for people to come and discuss what’s hard and get peer-to-peer support in addition to support from our team.

 

Kathi (15:39.074)

Yeah.

 

Kathi (15:43.758)

Yes, and I love the accountability. It keeps me on track because it’s so easy for life to crowd out things in another way. But the accountability says, no, Kathi, you’ve said that this is important to you. We’re just reminding ourselves of what’s important and that’s what we need. So there’s power and accountability being able and I think part of the accountability for me is to say I’m not the worst person in the world.

 

Tonya Kubo (15:52.819)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (16:00.538)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (16:14.297)

yeah.

 

Kathi (16:14.316)

that I don’t have the worst house in the world. And another part, and I know you’ll get this Tonya, and I think our listeners will too, cleaning out that drawer in my bathroom that has been bugging me for so long and has made me feel gross. If I shared that with my family, they might say, well, that’s what you’re supposed to do. But if I share it with,

 

Tonya Kubo (16:17.34)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (16:24.04)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (16:33.555)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (16:41.435)

Right.

 

Kathi (16:43.776)

My clutter free group. They’re going to say no we get this that’s important. That’s big And getting that, you know sharing strategies getting that support Is so crucial, but I think the number one thing for me is saying You don’t need to live in shame I have been there or I am there and you know, the only shameful thing is to give up and I don’t even want to shame people who are giving up because

 

But the only thing that should be like, I need to change this desperately right now is giving up. Because you’ve said that this is important to you and you wanna live a different way and we wanna be there to help you. And the longer I do this, Tonya, the more I see our clutter-free group being like any other recovery group, like an AA meeting or an NA meeting or.

 

Tonya Kubo (17:25.502)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (17:38.322)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (17:42.358)

You know a whatever whatever kind of meeting you can think of way that Yeah, you can do it on your own, but why make it a thousand times harder?

 

You know, because be around people who not only support your recovery, but understand the challenges you’re having in that recovery.

 

Tonya Kubo (18:03.386)

Yeah, well, people having ideas that you haven’t thought of. mean, this is something that has come up quite a bit in the paid membership program is a shoe or buying a shoe organizer to organize unmentionables in a way that they hang on the back of a door in a house that doesn’t have a lot of space. Right.

 

Kathi (18:19.47)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (18:27.138)

Yeah, interesting.

 

Tonya Kubo (18:28.796)

I mean, it’s fascinating actually, the different things you can put in a shoe organizer. But some of us are like, well, it says shoe organizer, so we only think of using that for shoes. And then somebody else says, this is what I do. And you go, I can’t even visualize that. And then they say, well, I’ll just post a picture. And then you’re like, wow.

 

Kathi (18:33.667)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (18:39.512)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (18:50.006)

Yeah. Okay. You know why I love that so much, Tonya? my goodness. Do you know why I love that? Because the things online are only the aesthetically pleasing things because you want to be able to go to your drawer and see all the little compartments and you want to get that high from it being overly organized and color coordinated. And you know, there are organizing systems out there that, you know, you, you put things from yellow to purple.

 

Tonya Kubo (19:01.32)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (19:19.772)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (19:20.026)

And that’s the only way you’re and it makes me crazy because our houses are not set up like that I don’t have a walk-in closet My closet is a walkout closet, know, and I do have a shoe organizer in there But can I tell you my shoe organizing system? Do you want to hear how awesome this? Okay So every night when I’m getting into bed and I’m changing into my clothes, I kick my shoes into the bottom

 

Tonya Kubo (19:27.773)

Right.

 

Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (19:39.366)

I do, I wanna hear it.

 

Kathi (19:49.39)

the closet in a jumble and then on Saturdays I put them away so You usually have five to six pairs of shoes on the bottom of the closet For about a week and then I put them away so I can find them again But you know what it works for me. Yeah, am I am I ready to get photographed for House Beautiful? I am NOT and if they came here, I’d break their camera, but it

 

Tonya Kubo (19:51.07)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (20:13.852)

Right.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (20:17.792)

My life is so much better than my shoes being all over the house every day tripping over them. It’s, it’s, do I want to be perfect or do I want to be sustainable? I want to be sustainable.

 

Tonya Kubo (20:30.46)

Yeah, no, exactly. mean, and I’m somebody, I only like alternate between two pairs of shoes usually. I tuck them underneath the bed, right? Because I get dressed in the dark because I get up hours before Brian does. So I just, there’s one little spot underneath the bed. That’s where my shoes live. I put them on, I’m good to go. And I think that’s the other thing that, so there is a time for aesthetics. There really is.

 

Kathi (20:36.824)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (20:40.366)

Perfect. Yeah.

 

Kathi (20:45.836)

Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (21:00.892)

But most of us now is not that time, right? Now is the time to minimize, like get as much out of there and to make our houses functional. So, you know, like for us right now, like socks are such a battle when you have kids and it was fine when their feet were not as big as mine. Now that our feet are all the same size.

 

Kathi (21:12.782)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (21:18.638)

Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (21:27.774)

It’s a problem. So we have two of those fabric cubes and all the socks go in there and we don’t match them. We don’t do anything. It is absolutely not a great long-term solution, but I don’t have socks all over the house and I’m not worried about whose socks are in whose drawer.

 

Kathi (21:44.814)

Okay, can I tell you my ultimate sock solution that I did when I had teenagers? I don’t know if this will work for you, but my girls would keep stealing my socks. I had black no-show socks. So what I did was I ordered a dozen Barney socks and.

 

Tonya Kubo (21:48.59)

I’ll take it. I will take it.

 

Kathi (22:11.726)

they were never touched by my teenage girls.

 

Tonya Kubo (22:15.423)

that’s funny.

 

Kathi (22:16.972)

Because I was so sick of, I literally did not have socks. And I’m like, I, go ahead.

 

Tonya Kubo (22:21.478)

Right. Well, I was going to say, yeah, I don’t have socks, but it’s not the girl’s fault. Remember, Brian does the laundry and Brian has an organization system that is called Mine Not Mine.

 

Kathi (22:29.326)

Right?

 

Tonya Kubo (22:36.922)

And if it is not his, then it goes all in the same pile. Right? And so the girls and I, was like their underwear in my drawer, my underwear in their drawer. And I would always like hold up their underwear. like, what part of you thinks this is my size? And that’s when he explained, he’s like, Tonya, it’s a simple system. It’s mine and not mine. And if it’s not mine, I just kind of assume maybe it’s yours.

 

Kathi (22:43.01)

Yes.

 

Kathi (22:47.726)

Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (22:53.366)

Right, right, right, right.

 

Kathi (23:05.302)

Okay, thank you, Brian, for doing laundry. Grateful.

 

Tonya Kubo (23:06.59)

Exactly. I am grateful for the laundry and now we have this weird commingled sock thing, but it works for now. once, Lily and I have been talking about this, it’s like, okay, once our frustration level gets to the point that we are ready to solve it on our own, we will do that. Until then we do not complain and we tolerate the solution that dad has come up

 

Kathi (23:25.708)

Right. Right.

 

Yes, Barney the Dinosaur, just keep that in your back pocket.

 

Tonya Kubo (23:34.928)

I might actually, that’s tempting.

 

Kathi (23:39.138)

Yeah, just make your stuff so undesirable that nobody else in the house will touch it. Yeah. Okay. So Tonya, this is literally the last day of our sale.

 

Tonya Kubo (23:44.872)

Right.

 

Tonya Kubo (23:51.794)

Right, well, we haven’t even talked about the clutter free for life sale!

 

Kathi (23:54.646)

So here’s why I’m gonna ask you if people are feeling isolated, what is our last ditch effort to say one, you’re the person who might benefit from this and two, what it’s gonna change for you.

 

Tonya Kubo (24:09.05)

I mean, it’s clutter free for life, right? So I guess here’s the thing is if you were looking for your house to be Pinterest perfect in 30 days, this is not the program for you. This is for the person who says it’s going to take time. It’s going to take effort. It’s a day to day thing that I’m going to have to work on. I’m going to slip. I’m going to fall. I might not even like look at the program materials for three months time. I may not. But when I’m ready,

 

Kathi (24:12.045)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (24:39.354)

I will have this whole community of people who are waiting for me and are happy to help me pick back up. Then Clutter Free for Life is 100 % for you. You can do our annual pass right now. It’s over 60 % off of regular price. Month to month is totally an option as well. But right now the annual pass is just 118 for a whole year. That’s what, like nine bucks? You do the math way better than I do, Kathi. It’s like nine bucks a month.

 

Kathi (25:04.098)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Tonya Kubo (25:07.958)

And it’s worth trying out and giving it a go. And if it’s not for you, then you’ll know in the first 30 days, I think. Because we’re pretty laid back and sometimes we’re just too laid back for people. I get that. But I really think you just… They do. People do come in really expecting me to be mean. And I’m just like, I don’t have it in me. I’m sorry.

 

Kathi (25:16.482)

Yeah, for sure.

 

Kathi (25:21.696)

Yeah, no, they want us to be meaner to them.

 

Kathi (25:30.732)

No, that’s not what we do here. We’re nice and Right

 

Tonya Kubo (25:34.106)

I have a lot of compassion and I think my compassion, I actually had somebody last January who was like, no, like I don’t deserve compassion. And I was like, yeah, you do. And they were telling me, they’re like, you don’t understand. And they were telling me like how lazy they were and all these things. And I said, wow, you have really high expectations of yourself. And they were like, well, yeah. And I said, and how’s that working? And they just kind of stopped. And I said, you know, like,

 

Kathi (25:46.04)

We all deserve compassion.

 

Tonya Kubo (26:04.07)

I can’t say the word right now. Recrimination, self-recrimination has, like it sounds like you have a history of that and it hasn’t been effective. So what if we tried compassion?

 

Kathi (26:06.636)

Yeah, yeah.

 

Kathi (26:14.092)

Yeah, yeah, because if you’re going to keep doing the same thing you’ve always been doing and it hasn’t worked And here’s the thing I come from a generation I come from generations of people who wanted to shame themselves into better behavior And it just it doesn’t work. Okay friends today’s the last day, but here’s the beautiful thing if it doesn’t work for you 30-day guarantee what if you got to lose and I think

 

Tonya Kubo (26:28.882)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Kathi (26:43.488)

If you stick with it, you’re gonna see results. You may not feel like you see results in the first week, but within the first two weeks, you’re gonna start to see some noticeable results in your life. And we wanna be there to cheer you on. So I’m putting the link down there. It’s normally 299. You can join any time of the year for 299. But if you wanna get the super, because we like to onboard everybody at once. It saves our team a lot of time and a lot of energy.

 

Tonya Kubo (26:55.166)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (27:10.79)

Yep.

 

Kathi (27:13.006)

118 and That’s It’s less than $10 a month To know that you’re on the right track Tonya. Thanks for hanging out with me Okay, and friends, thank you for hanging out you’ve been listening to clutter free Academy. I’m Kathi lip now Go start the clutter free life. You’ve always wanted to live

 

Tonya Kubo (27:21.63)

Mm-hmm.

 

Tonya Kubo (27:26.44)

Thanks for having me.

  

 

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Hey there, friend! In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo help listeners kick off 2025 with a practical plan for a clutter-free home. Kathi shares her personal goal of decluttering 100 spaces in her house this year and how she’s breaking it...

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Hey there, friend! You know that feeling when you’ve spent an entire weekend decluttering, only to find your house looking exactly the same three weeks later?

You are definitely not alone!

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo tackle the persistent challenge of the clutter cycle. They explore why homes seem to accumulate clutter despite repeated decluttering efforts and offer practical solutions for creating lasting change.

Listeners will discover:

  • The value of setting realistic goals with a maximum of three priorities per day
  • Ways to help children develop organizational skills without creating tension
  • The importance of understanding different organizational styles within the family
  • Why small, consistent actions lead to lasting change

The hosts share personal experiences with generational clutter patterns and discuss how different organizational styles within families can impact home management.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

 

Join Clutter Free For Life

While Clutter Free for Life comes with a plan of action to keep you moving forward in your decluttering journey day after day, the true magic of this membership program is in the community. It’s a program FOR cluttery people BY cluttery people.

It’s a family of cluttery people who want better for themselves and for you. We all understand the emotional weight of clutter and the physical barriers it causes. Clutter Free for Life members have a team of experts who know what it’s like to feel overwhelmed as their guides. Want to see whether the membership is right for you? Check out our info page Clutter Free For Life.

What’s your advice for someone who feels overwhelmed by generational clutter patterns?

Share in the comments!

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Meet Our Guest 

 

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Tonya Kubo Picture
Transcript

 

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am back with your Clutter Crusader. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. So today, I think this is such an interesting topic that we’re gonna be talking about today, is the clutter cycle. 

  

Tonya Kubo (00:49.324) 

Hey Kathi. 

  

Kathi (00:59.717) 

And there are lots of ways that we can be talking about the clutter cycle. You and I have both had cycles in our family that were clutter. I mean, I remember, I don’t know, did you know your grandparents? You did? Okay, were they cluttery people? 

  

Tonya Kubo (01:17.426) 

so my grandmother died before I was born, but my grandfather, he was disabled. like, he didn’t, like he, we lived with him. So it can’t really say whether he was cluddery or not. 

  

Kathi (01:27.337) 

Kathi (01:30.863) 

Got it. Okay, because your mom who was a hoarder could have been the one who was bringing the clutter in. Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (01:39.328) 

Yeah, I mean, so what I know is that my grandmother was very, very particular about how clean the house was. And there was a 100 % right way to do things and then everything else was wrong. 

  

Kathi (01:48.133) 

Mmm. 

  

Kathi (01:52.655) 

Got it. Isn’t that interesting? So on my mom’s side, like my mom would get in trouble if she didn’t clean up all the little pieces of paper from the paper dolls, or if she left the scissors out. And on my dad’s side, I just remember chaos. Like, you know, my grandfather was a house painter after his sports career, and my grandmother was an artist. 

  

Tonya Kubo (02:06.317) 

Mmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (02:11.63) 

Mm. 

  

Kathi (02:21.569) 

And I just remember there was always stuff around, like just stuff. But it didn’t feel cluttered to me. It just felt full. I don’t know, you know, a perspective of little kids. So there’s those kind of cycles. But then there’s also the cycle of just the overwhelm of our own house’s clutter. And I think that there is that feeling of overwhelm. And I don’t know where to start. 

  

Tonya Kubo (02:27.288) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (02:31.117) 

Yeah. 

  

Kathi (02:51.333) 

which is the internalized criticism. But then there’s also, if you live with other human beings, the frustration of, is it all up to me? Should it all be up to me? Why is this my problem and not the household problem? I think that you and I have felt that at different times, probably with our kids, but 

  

I also have to defend other people in my family saying, you know, it’s a kid’s job to be cluttery. Like that’s part of their role. And so it’s for me, it’s always been more of a partner thing than it has been a parenting thing. How about for you? 

  

Tonya Kubo (03:27.832) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (03:35.146) 

Mm-hmm. Well, think, yeah, that’s the same. I just, I’m not bothered like other people are bothered by it because I just understand the nature of clutter is that it’s a cycle. And I think other people, and I mean, we see this all the time in the Facebook group, especially when people come in brand new, there is this skewed perspective. 

  

Kathi (03:46.341) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (03:50.213) 

Yeah, yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (04:01.974) 

that if I just get the house decluttered, then it’ll stay that way without me having to do anything extra. And I understand that it’s just an ebb and a flow. 

  

Kathi (04:05.711) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Right. Right. Yes. 

  

Yeah, because we all love that high right after something’s been decluttered, right? Where we know where the scissors are, we can open that box and what it says on the outside of the box is on the inside of the box. And it feels so good. And then, but I think lots of times those decluttering, let’s just say binges where we binge declutter, we are relying 

  

Tonya Kubo (04:39.308) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (04:44.011) 

less on systems and more on memory. Like I just put this thing there last Tuesday, so it’s probably still there. I just put the scissors there last Wednesday, so they’re probably still there. And so we have less of a system and more of a, I just put it there. And then as other people start to get involved in the binge, that’s when it tends to fall apart. 

  

And I know I will admit, I have been the person who says, why can’t you just put it back where it belongs? And they’re like, well, where would that be? Because I wonder if this is part of the cluttering profile, because I’m always trying to improve systems. Because I’m kind of equal creative and executing. 

  

Tonya Kubo (05:34.446) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (05:41.57) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (05:42.669) 

So I’m always trying to think of could we do this better? Could we do this better? Instead of, you know, pouring into deep systems, I’m just trying to always improve the system. So what was true last week is no longer true. Do you feel like that about yourself? Not at all. Do tell. 

  

Tonya Kubo (05:51.48) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (06:00.302) 

Right. Not at all. No. I never, I will never rearrange my furniture. I am the person who moved into a house that had pictures on the walls and I never removed them. 

  

Kathi (06:14.607) 

Shut up. 

  

Tonya Kubo (06:16.782) 

Just don’t care. Like, it’s just, can I live here? Sure. Can I live with this? Fine. I like, I have zero desire for decoration and it falls into my clothing too. You and me talk about clothing all the time. You know, some people are like, Tonya, you’re so good. You know, you just, you’re so into what your purpose here is in the world that you don’t care about styles or trends. And I’m like, no, it’s not cause I’m a better human. It’s cause quite honestly, I don’t have the energy for 

  

Kathi (06:29.123) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (06:46.892) 

Like, I do not feel like I haven’t like ascended to some special like, I don’t need to care about my appearance. I still have the energy. It’s like it has nothing to do with that, but sure. 

  

Kathi (06:56.401) 

Tonya, you’re just so much closer to Jesus than the rest of us. 

  

someday I will be like Tonya. By the way, you look fabulous today. Your glasses are so on point. I love them so much. you know, I also know, yeah, so I do try and I’m not always good about updating the decor. I will say a lot of things that we when we bought this house, they had some really cute stuff that they left behind and it’s still in the same spot. 

  

Tonya Kubo (07:06.318) 

No! 

  

Tonya Kubo (07:10.318) 

Thanks. 

  

Tonya Kubo (07:28.814) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

  

Kathi (07:32.513) 

Then we have people like to kneel in our lives who come to our house and say, can I just rearrange everything? And I’m like, sure, I don’t care. 

  

Tonya Kubo (07:36.099) 

Yeah 

  

After, after to Neil and I visited your house, was like to Neil, can never come to my house. Cause like I like, no, no, you can, you cannot do those things. But you know, and I say this, you know, for our listener, because I do know that some of them kind of trend more toward where I’m at. You know, we had a situation where like where we kept our leftover containers, right? Some people call those tougher wear reusable containers, whatever you call them. We kept them in one like. 

  

Kathi (08:04.133) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (08:06.636) 

when we moved into the house, it was like, yeah, that seems like a good place to put things. So we put them there. We knew for years it was not really functional. were all these problems with it. It took me a year of thinking before I could come up with another place to put it. It’s just, it’s really hard for me to shift. I’m not a good systems creator. I’m a good systems assimilator. Right? So I can ass… 

  

Kathi (08:28.785) 

that’s good. That’s a real skill though. 

  

Tonya Kubo (08:31.606) 

I can assimilate into just about anybody’s system, but to create one from scratch is hard. So no, I’m never thinking of ways to improve the process. 

  

Kathi (08:40.133) 

See I am the good creator, but not the good assimilator like even into my own systems But I am let me just say this a good systems Bullpucky detector When I you know, I just saw an article yesterday dollar store solutions For your storage needs and they were talking about like the Tupperware stuff 

  

Tonya Kubo (08:45.168) 

Tonya Kubo (09:05.486) 

Ugh. 

  

Kathi (09:07.741) 

And they were saying, you should put all of your small storage containers and lids in lingerie bag. And I say, I call a bullpucky on that. No, that would, it’ll make you feel good for a moment, but it will not, it will not make your life better. So here’s what Tonya and I are gonna do. We’re gonna go pay some bills and when you come back, we have fully explored the problem. 

  

Now we’re gonna come up with some solutions to breaking that clutter cycle. So stick with us and we’ll be right back. Okay, Tonya and I are back. we wanna talk about how can you break those clutter cycles. I would love to say for once and for all, this is like those Buzzfeed articles that say, 

  

Stop your snacking once and for all. There’s no stopping your snacking once and for all, but I can give you, Tonya can give you some ideas of how you can interrupt those cycles so that you’re constantly getting better. Because here’s what I’ll say, Tonya, I don’t feel like there has ever been one trick, one solution, anything that has changed my life, but it’s been a lot of small decisions reinforced day over day over day that have 

  

taken me from cluttery to come onto my house. You know, like I feel like that that is the evolution. So the first thing is no overhauls, right? No overhauls. I give you permission from the Lord of Decluttering on High to do 15 minute sessions. 

  

Tonya Kubo (10:35.042) 

Nice, yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (10:44.566) 

Hmm. 

  

Kathi (10:58.213) 

If you have set aside time I give you permission to do up to an hour of decluttering if you’re gonna be going deep on a project because I understand if you’re trying to Declutter a kitchen cabinet It could take 15 minutes. It could take 45 minutes and you don’t want to just do that in 15 minute segments. So Giving yourself focus on 15 minutes 

  

Tonya Kubo (11:18.894) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (11:27.959) 

and give yourself permission once at the maximum twice a week, unless you’re moving or something, for an hour session. Tonya, how does this look in your household? 

  

Tonya Kubo (11:40.59) 

Well, for us, you know, I think we run kind of like a lot of families with small kids. you know, Monday through Friday is really about survival. And then the weekends are where you try to get things reset. So I do like when we’re not and we have tons of activities. So when we don’t have a ton of activities or if we have at least one down day, I have everybody work on their space, their individual space for an hour. 

  

Kathi (11:49.849) 

Yeah. 

  

Kathi (11:53.483) 

Mm-hmm, yeah. 

  

Kathi (12:09.637) 

Mmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (12:09.942) 

Right? So that can be the girls working on their room together for an hour. Sometimes actually I have to put one girl in there all by herself for an hour and then move that girl out and put another girl in because they don’t have the same systems. But that’s what we do. And then in terms of the day to day decluttering, that is all on me. Like there is nobody else in this house that’s going to set aside 15 minutes a day unless we’re in middle of a challenge of some sort to focus on decluttering. 

  

Kathi (12:17.369) 

Yeah. Right. Yes. 

  

Kathi (12:27.886) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (12:34.529) 

Yeah. So Brian is in charge of things like laundry and stuff like that, right? And so you’re more of the decluttering diva in the household. Okay, no, that totally makes sense. You both are contributing in ways that make sense to you and feel right to you. And I love that. Okay. So breaking those tasks into manageable, manageable chunks. So 

  

Tonya Kubo (12:41.454) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (12:46.541) 

Yeah. 

  

Kathi (13:03.833) 

Tell me how do you guide your girls through making it manageable to get rid of stuff? 

  

Tonya Kubo (13:11.96) 

Well, so for us, it’s never not a conversation. We talk about it in some way every single day. So it can be going through the backpacks, right? So, you know, both of my girls are neurodivergent. There’s just a lot about how their backpacks look that kind of fits both of their archetypes. And so going through and just saying, you know, it’s so much easier to throw away one piece of paper or to go through the pencils and toss the one broken pencil. 

  

Kathi (13:20.323) 

Hmm. 

  

Kathi (13:24.922) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (13:42.426) 

each day than it is to have to like go through that backpack at the on Friday and go through 10 crunched up pieces of paper or whatever else is in the bottom of the backpack, right? So that’s part of it is just reinforcing that if we do a little touch every single day, it’s so much easier than if we save it all up to the end of the week. 

  

Kathi (13:52.644) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (14:04.93) 

But then it’s also when they make some headway is giving them reminders. So like with Abby, you know, we’ve just gotten her started where she puts away her own clothes. And it’s like, you know, Abby, if you put it, if you put undies in this drawer and shirts in this drawer and pants in this drawer, it’s so much easier to get dressed in the morning than if you want to shove everything in one drawer. Because that’s really what she wants to do, because she doesn’t actually want to put her stuff away. So she just wants to shove it all together, right? It is. 

  

Kathi (14:24.239) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

I don’t blame her. It’s the worst part of laundry. It is the worst part of laundry. Yes. 

  

Tonya Kubo (14:33.366) 

I will give you that. It is the worst part of laundry. So those are some things we do and just talk about like see how easy this makes our life isn’t this much easier than it was before. 

  

Kathi (14:42.989) 

Isn’t it so interesting that as kids, we buck those systems so much, but as adults, the thing I hear about decluttering so much is I need accountability. I need somebody to be in this with me. And we see what we needed as children. I think the difference is that you really know your girls’ types, and you’re able to say what works for Lily doesn’t work for Abby and vice versa. 

  

Tonya Kubo (14:54.466) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (15:04.782) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (15:08.846) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (15:10.489) 

And maybe we didn’t have a parent that was quite as in tune to that. So that makes a huge difference. OK, also, setting realistic goals. I know that this has been really hard for me. Like my to-do list at the beginning of the week can look like, do you have a crew coming over? Do you have magical elves that are going to help you with some of this stuff? So. 

  

Tonya Kubo (15:30.53) 

Yeah. 

  

Kathi (15:38.853) 

How do you keep your own goals realistic? And I’m asking this in a holistic sense because you also have a business, have, mean, so how do you keep your goals realistic throughout the day? 

  

Tonya Kubo (15:46.126) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (15:52.686) 

Well, so for me, I don’t ever allow myself to have more than three items on a list. Like that’s a hard rule. I remember years ago, you know, how I was introduced into the work world. And I think for some of us who didn’t grow up in environments that were organized, we learned organization and whatever was imposed upon us in our first jobs. And so, you know, I was trained by somebody who had this like running task list, we’d have like 25 items. 

  

Kathi (15:57.743) 

Mmm. 

  

Kathi (16:12.419) 

Right, yes, absolutely. 

  

Tonya Kubo (16:20.812) 

and they would just add stuff to the bottom and cross off from the top and then it would just roll over to the next day. So they were always making a new list every day and that would have stuff carried over. And I think that it just, it’s not helpful. It’s not helpful to have a list of 10 items. It’s like, okay, before my head hits the pillow, there are three things I have to get done today. What would those three things be? And there’s some days like today’s a day, for instance, I started with meetings at 4.30. I have not had more than a 30 minute break. 

  

Kathi (16:34.351) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (16:49.824) 

and I won’t get a break until six o’clock tonight, right? So that’s gonna be my day. So when I woke up this morning, I had my three priorities that I wrote last night. And it’s like, okay, now that I look at my calendar and I recognize that I am a human who hopes to at some point eat some food, it’s just one thing. What’s the one thing that I have to get done the day before my head hits the pillow? And then that’s how I said it. And I’ve learned to be okay with that. I think that’s the other thing is you have to not be 

  

Kathi (16:53.713) 

my word. 

  

Kathi (17:06.937) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (17:12.591) 

Yeah. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (17:20.47) 

You have to not let yourself get into the place where you’re feeling guilty for not having more things on your list. 

  

Kathi (17:25.327) 

Right, because if only I were superhuman. And it’s like, well, that’s such a ridiculous statement, but for some reason, we don’t expect that of other people, but we expect of ourselves. And that’s something we need to combat. And that I know that when you have challenges, you have a family reward system. Talk a little bit about that. 

  

Tonya Kubo (17:29.421) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (17:35.114) 

Mm-hmm. Exactly. 

  

Tonya Kubo (17:48.736) 

I do. So when we do like, for instance, we’ve got 30 day 1K coming up, which is like my favorite time ever as of recording. So we have a tracking sheet. There’s four of us. So it’s very easy to find a pack of highlighters that has four colors in it. And everybody gets to mark theirs off. And then our reward system is the winner. In this case, it’s whoever declares more items. The winner gets to pick the prize. 

  

for everybody, right? And sometimes I pick it just because, you know, one year it was like, well we should go to Disneyland for this. No, you’re not going to Disneyland because you declared 200 items. Sorry, it takes more than that. But, you know, being able to say, okay, we’re gonna have a family movie night. That’s the prize. And the winner picks the movie or the winner picks the snacks for family movie night. That’s a big one. Like the girls really love to pick the snacks for family movie night. 

  

Kathi (18:29.615) 

Right. 

  

Kathi (18:45.887) 

Okay, yeah, okay, so I just have to ask what are some favorite snacks? 

  

Tonya Kubo (18:50.286) 

Abby is all about popcorn, popcorn chips. She likes the salty stuff. Lily just wants chocolate. If Lily can have a buffet of chocolate, maybe a little gelato tub, that would make her very happy. She likes a charcuterie. She’s a big fan of a charcuterie too. Yes, yes. 

  

Kathi (18:52.739) 

Yeah. Yeah. 

  

Kathi (19:00.387) 

Kathi (19:03.883) 

Okay. Yes. see, I love all these ideas. This is amazing. Yes. Yeah, they do not have cheap taste. They get that from their father and their mom in some in some regards. Yeah, you know, for us, you know, I think this is an adult thing. Like if I declutter, I can go to bed early and be in a decluttered room and moose and I can snuggle. 

  

Tonya Kubo (19:09.984) 

My kids are bougie though. They just are. 

  

Tonya Kubo (19:15.434) 

No. Right. 

  

Kathi (19:32.675) 

and it’s the best thing ever. And so that makes me super happy. Like that gives me joy, joy, joy down in my heart. And so I love that. I love that idea about that. Okay. So guys, if this is sounding appealing to you, if you need a little bit of accountability, you want to know more, you know, feel. 

  

Tonya Kubo (19:34.132) 

Yup. 

  

Kathi (19:57.411) 

like you’re being rewarded for this, but you also just know that part of the reward is living in a clutter-free house. If you are willing to get rid of some of that stuff in your house permanently, so you never have to revisit it again, I just wonder if Clutter-free for life might be for you. is, Tonya, tell them a little bit about Clutter-Free for life and how they’ll know if it’s for them. 

  

Tonya Kubo (20:26.668) 

Yeah, so, my gosh, I love Clutter-Free For Life as anybody who listens to this show should know by now. So, you Clutter-Free For Life is for the person who is like, you know, enough is enough. Like I’ve tried to do this on my own and it hasn’t been successful for me because I believe that we do have people in Clutter-Free Free For Life who genuinely would succeed with the membership or without it. They just… 

  

Kathi (20:29.589) 

I know, I do too. Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (20:52.914) 

know that they are happier in the process by having community around them. But, you know, for most of us, and I’m thinking of me, I’m thinking of Grace Church who’s over there, if you’ve tried it by yourself and you haven’t been successful and you’re like, you know, there’s just something like I can get it to a place, but I can’t get it beyond that, or I can’t keep it that way, Clutter-Free for Life is designed specifically for that. It’s designed for the person who needs a little extra support. 

  

Kathi (20:55.833) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (21:20.236) 

Maybe the person who doesn’t have anybody in their life who understands how hard it is to actually release clutter and to keep things decluttered and they want somebody or would like to have somebody who shares those small wins like, hey, I just decluttered this one drawer. Clutter-free for life is perfect for that person in addition to those people who actually need a plan. And our plans are flexible. They work no matter how big or how small your house is. 

  

They work if you live with other people or if you have your own space, you can rent, can own. We’ve made it a very flexible plan, but it is something, at least you wake up that day knowing what part of the house to focus on and what to do when you’re there. 

  

Kathi (22:05.269) 

And we see such huge success stories over in Clutter-Free for Life. It’s inspiring. 

  

Tonya Kubo (22:10.858) 

We do. And you know what, what’s funny is what some, each person when they say is like, this is what changed everything for me. It’s always different. You know, for some it’s the weekly coaching session. And it’s not because we like boss them around, right? But it’s because they get to show up. They get to look around and go, Hey, I’m not the only one who struggles. There’s, know, 10 people on this call, 20 people on this call who have the same struggle. We talk through. 

  

Kathi (22:21.54) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (22:38.412) 

like what works for us. Like I just got a great tip from somebody last week during a coaching session that’s totally changed our kitchen. And it was, my gosh. So shout out to Natasha, who’s in Clutter-Free for Life. We were talking about like ways to organize small spaces like bathrooms and stuff where you don’t have closets. And the idea came up, the little shoe boxes like the Sterilite plastic shoe boxes with the lid are a great way if you… 

  

Kathi (22:46.031) 

Do tell! You have to tell! 

  

Kathi (22:51.019) 

I love Natasha. Yeah. 

  

Kathi (23:03.471) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (23:06.4) 

if you have things that are just like lots of odds and ends that get lost in a drawer, well, what it made me think of is like, I have appliances that have lots of pieces. So think of like your food processor has all those things that come with it and you’re always looking for a random piece. So I was like, what if we got these shoe boxes and I put all my meat grinder attachments in one and I put all my food processor things in another and we have our sushi-making stuff in another. 

  

Kathi (23:17.219) 

Yeah, right. 

  

Kathi (23:28.495) 

Yeah, yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (23:35.038) 

And it all stacks beautifully all modularly in a little cupboard. But I’m not having to dig through drawers and go, well, this is kind of an odd shape. So it goes here and this is really tiny. So it goes there. And Brian was super excited, right? Because Brian was just like, my gosh, now I just have to pull out that one little box and everything I need is going to be in. 

  

Kathi (23:50.277) 

It’s amazing. 

  

Kathi (23:57.943) 

It’s you know, I have that kind of system, but it’s under my stairs in the Harry Potter closet where Yes, where you just have these these tubs that pull out and all my quazen art stuff is there and yeah It’s such a good idea. Yes, absolutely Well guys, you know the thing I love the most about clutter-free for life is we’re supporting people not just in their decluttering but that decluttering 

  

Tonya Kubo (24:03.456) 

I love the Harry Potter closet though. 

  

Tonya Kubo (24:08.396) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (24:11.991) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (24:26.797) 

is the undergirding to so much more in their lives. It’s the undergirding to buying less because you can find stuff in your closet. It’s the undergirding to paying your bills on time. It’s the undergirding to cooking more because your kitchen is not in chaos. And we have a sale going on right now that this runs through December 10th. 

  

Tonya Kubo (24:30.136) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (24:43.48) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi (24:54.981) 

Clutter-Free for life is 2.99 a year, but if you buy it on this sale for, know, before December 10th, you can get it for $118. It’s a huge discount because we love to have everybody kind of come in at the same time. It saves us a lot of time and energy and that’s how we support it. And we would love to have you join us today. 

  

You can go to the link in these show notes or if you just go to Kathi Lipp’s Clutterfree Academy, know, look over there. We’re going to have all sorts of information about it over there. So, and if you have questions, feel free to ask us questions over there because we would love to be able to support you in that. Tonya, what’s one thing you would like to encourage people with if they’re kind of on the fence about this? 

  

Tonya Kubo (25:32.685) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (25:47.086) 

if they’re on the fence, they just need to reach out to me. Seriously, just talk to me. I would say, you know, my email address is tonya@kathilipp.org. They can get information @kathi.link/CFL. But honestly, let’s just have a conversation. What I love about our community is we’ve got members. I mean, they’ll tell you like what they love. They’ll tell you what was hard for them when they started. They’ll tell you why they stay. 

  

Kathi (25:50.147) 

Okay. 

  

Kathi (26:02.297) 

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (26:16.766) 

We’re very honest because the truth is it doesn’t benefit us if it’s not a good fit for you either So we just want to see you. I mean, I would love to have you try it We do a 30-day guarantee. So we’ll give you your money back within 30 days if it’s not for you, but if You’re looking around and you’re like I want to live differently and I just don’t quite know how to do that day-to-day I really would encourage you to check us out. 

  

Kathi (26:22.584) 

It’s so true. 

Tonya Kubo

Thanks for having me.

 

Kathi (26:41.925)

Tonya, thanks so much. And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

 

  

 

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Hey there, friend! 

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, we sit down with Lisa Woodruff, founder of Organize 365 and creator of the PaperSolution Financial Binder. Join us as discuss the importance of organizing financial documents and how it can simplify estate planning and reduce stress for families. 

Listen along to learn: 

  • Why everyone needs a financial binder, regardless of wealth
  • The difference between a binder and digital solutions 
  • What to include in your financial binder 
  • Real-life stories of how organization saved families time and money
  • Tips for getting started with financial organization

Lisa shares practical advice on how to begin organizing financial documents, including setting up a designated container for collecting important papers. She emphasizes the peace of mind that comes from having all crucial information in one place, especially during unexpected events like natural disasters or family emergencies. 

You’ll also will learn how to create a financial binder and keep things such as financial information easily accessible. Don’t miss this invaluable conversation that will empower you to take control of your financial organization and protect your family’s future. 

Organize Binder Purchase Link

Join the Clutter Free Academy Facebook Group to receive your 30-Day 1K Calendar to help track your progress. Remember to answer all three questions to join the group! It’s how we keep it the nicest corner of the internet.

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup here and sign up to receive your free ebook featuring four week’s worth of easy meal plans and delicious recipes.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

 

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Order Sabbath Soup here and sign up to receive your free ebook featuring four weeks’ worth of easy meal plans and delicious recipes.

Can you share a personal story of how financial organization affected your own organizing journey?

Share in the comments!

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Meet Our Guest

 

Lisa Woodruff

Lisa Woodruff is the founder & CEO of Organize 365®.

Lisa and 87% of America believe organization is a learnable skill. Yet less than 18% of those same Americans feel they are organized. Through The Productive Home Solution® course, Lisa aims to teach American’s young & old the skill of organizing and unlocking their time for what they are uniquely created to do.

As the host of the top-rated Organize 365 Podcast, with 23 million downloads & counting, Lisa shares strategies for reducing the overwhelm, clearing the mental clutter, and living a productive and organized life. Her sensible and doable organizing tasks appeal to multiple generations and her candor and relatable style make you feel as though she is right there beside you, helping you get organized as you laugh and cry together.

Under Lisa’s direction, Organize 365 has conducted academic research establishing the definitions of housework, home organization and the weight of paper in the American home. This ongoing research is making the invisible work at home visible to all so we can eliminate it and free people from the monotonous tasks of daily living and unlock their time for what they are uniquely created to bring forth in the world.

She is the author of four books including, How ADHD Affects Home Organization and The Paper Solution. Lisa’s understanding of the lived female American experience has helped her to create products & courses like the Sunday Basket® that externalize the routine tasks that take up the executive functioning capacity of our brains, freeing us up to think and create again!

Tonya Kubo Picture
Transcript

Kathi (00:00) 

Okay, this is Kathi and Lisa Woodruff and we’re talking about the financial binder. Five, four, three, two, one. Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter -Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And guys, today, okay, it’s the subject that has… 

 

Roger and I don’t fight much. In fact, we rarely fight. But if we were going to fight, it would be over finances. It just would be. And I’ve got somebody here who is going to make things a whole lot easier for us. You guys, it’s Lisa Woodruff. She is the founder of Organize 365. I love that name. She’s a professional organizer. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (00:37) 

Ha 

  

Kathi (00:55) 

and she’s here to solve all of our problems. Lisa, welcome to the podcast. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (01:00) 

Kathi, thank you for the introduction. I’m not solving all of the problems, but I will be a friend on the journey. Let’s put it that way. 

  

Kathi (01:03) 

Wait Lisa promises were made no I get it. You know if if you could make this part of our lives 7 % easier that would feel like solving all of our problems. Okay, so here’s my here’s my question Are you just one of those born organized people who was color coding your things in the crib and now we can’t learn anything from you 

  

Lisa Woodruff (01:18) 

Mm 

  

Okay, I can do that. 

  

Well, I was a born organized person, I can’t lie. And my mother did take me shopping with a button box and she would put me on the floor at like Talbot’s or whatever. And I would sort buttons by color for like an hour so she could shop. 

  

Kathi (01:37) 

Okay. 

  

Yeah. 

  

I love that so much. Okay. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (01:47) 

However, it doesn’t matter if you’re born organized or not born organized, eventually in your lifetime, you are going to become roadkill because life is going to move too fast and you can’t keep up. And you need different organization about every 10 to 20 years. So childhood organization doesn’t work for 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, et cetera. And organization is a learnable skill. So I’m a teacher by trade and I took my born organized -ness and my ability to teach and my roadkill. 

  

Kathi (02:08) 

Right. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (02:17) 

decade and I put them all together in my 40s and organized 365 like okay here’s here’s where you know raw talent meets real life and then how can we all actually do this. 

  

Kathi (02:27) 

Okay, because here’s the thing, guys, I’m gonna, full disclosure, Lisa and I met before, and the reason I met with Lisa before is because I don’t let born organized people come on here that think that they are better than us wonderful, talented, creative, but cluttery folk, right? Because we all have different gifts and different skills, and I think you’re absolutely right. Those of us who loved our color coordinated peachies, 

  

Lisa Woodruff (02:33) 

You 

  

Bye! 

  

Yeah. 

  

Right. 

  

Kathi (02:56) 

in the fourth grade, we need an entirely different set of skills. And you know, I’ve just discovered this about myself. The person, the Kathi who sets up the system and the Kathi who has to use the system. Okay, she’s throwing, right, you’re throwing your hands. Okay, you’ve known this much sooner than I have. Explain how you understand this pain. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (02:58) 

Right. 

  

Amen. Two different Kathis. 

  

Mm 

  

Well, I’ve been recently diagnosed with ADHD. First of all, I don’t know how you’re a woman without it because there are so many things we have to do. But also, mean, setting it up as a project, that’s fun. Using it is work, like that’s not fun. 

  

Kathi (03:28) 

sister, right? Yes. 

  

That’s fun! 

  

Yes, it’s so true, right? And you want me to stop for three whole minutes to put something away? Have we met? Right. It’s so boring. The day to day is so boring. okay. So you were a naturally organized person. So when you and I were talking, was, I, you have a bunch of different binders. First of all, why a binder and not an app? That’s part of my question. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (03:43) 

Yes. 

  

Mm 

  

Okay, so we have why a binder and not an app and why a binder and not a file. So why a binder and not a file is step one. And that’s because, you know, I used to like try to teach people how to do file cabinets. I wasn’t very good at it, but like everybody did it. So that’s what I did until the California fires and the Houston earth, the Houston hurricanes came through and I’ve got customers, you know, messaging me from inside of their attics with hatchets so they can break through the roof. I’m like, 

  

Kathi (04:14) 

Yeah. 

  

Right. 

  

Yes, yeah. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (04:40) 

I live in Ohio. Like I have no sense for what these people are talking about. And yet they’re like, I have my Sunday basket with me, but what about my filing cabinet? I’m like, it’s just going to be gone. Like all that information is going to be gone. So it must be a binder. 

  

Kathi (04:42) 

Correct. 

  

And Sunday Basket is like your day -to -day organization stuff, right? Okay. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (04:56) 

Yeah, it’s your weekly organizing. So the binder is portable and that is crucial for two reasons. One, if you live in any of the coastal areas, you will evacuate at some point. But two, whenever you need this information, you don’t need it in a file cabinet. You need it at the lawyers, at the hospital, at the wherever. Like your information needs to be portable. So that’s why it’s a binder. And why not an app? Well, you know, everything Organize 365 does is analog because I’m a kindergarten teacher. Like every single human can use my products. 

  

Kathi (05:01) 

Mm -hmm. 

  

Yeah. Yeah. 

  

It’s so true. Yeah. 

  

Mm -hmm. Right. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (05:26) 

You can digitize it and make it your own productive thing if you want, but here’s the thing. An app is not necessarily shareable and it doesn’t necessarily stay up to date. So maybe your family is super high tech and you’re all on like Google Drive and you have a password protected and so you have all of your financial information in there and you share it with your siblings and your parents and like your Uber or whatever. I don’t even know who this family is. But as soon as you forget to update the app, it’s pointless. And if you don’t have the password, it’s pointless. 

  

Kathi (05:33) 

Mm -hmm. Yeah. 

  

Yes. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (05:54) 

So apps are personal organization. Binders are global organization. So you’re going to organize in a binder in analog. And we’re going to talk about the financial binder today. The financial binder is like 30 % in your file cabinet, 50 % on your computer, and 20 % in your brain. So even if your family gets to your file cabinet, they only get 30 % of the information. And even if they get online, they’re not going to go to every place that you have stored your information. 

  

Kathi (06:00) 

and trisome. 

  

Okay. 

  

Hmm. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (06:20) 

So it is a way for you to keep your information updated if you update it annually. And then when you actually need it, which is when someone is gonna be your power of attorney or your power of healthcare or your settle your estate, that is like, you’ve just saved them a year’s worth of work. And when I had to settle my dad’s estate, I didn’t find almost everything that I needed because I just didn’t even know how I would find it. So that’s why not an app. 

  

Kathi (06:20) 

Yeah. 

  

Right, absolutely. You know, and if you didn’t have a good answer for why not an app, and I knew you did, I was going to give you my good answer is that it would completely intimidate my mom, who this is, in our family, that’s the most pressing need, right? So, you know, my husband and I are both pretty techie, but it’s interesting. We’re in between two kind of non -techie 

  

Lisa Woodruff (06:46) 

you 

  

Right, right. 

  

Kathi (07:09) 

Our kids are more analog or at least the kid who is responsible enough to do things with our estate. You have to know your kids, right? You know, the one who’s actually gonna do something. And my mom, it would have been really intimidating for her to have to get online. Now she’s able to look things up in small portions as we go through this binder, but she’s not having to input it there, which has been… 

  

Lisa Woodruff (07:33) 

Mm -hmm. 

  

Kathi (07:40) 

which has been a godsend, I’m not gonna lie. Okay, so a couple of questions, Lisa. We’re not rich, do we really need to do this? 

  

Lisa Woodruff (07:48) 

Okay. So first of all, we’re talking about, we like started mid sentence. So this is the organized 365 financial binder. And it was created after I had to settle my dad’s estate. I had to be the power of attorney. And then I was the executor of the estate. And I went to Amazon to Google, like, give me Mad Libs for settling an estate. Doesn’t exist. They’re like four books and that’s it. There’s no like, let me just plug everything into this system. And your financial picture is, has a lot of parts to it. 

  

Kathi (07:52) 

yes, that’s true. Yeah. 

  

Right? 

  

Yeah. 

  

I love it. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (08:18) 

So what you normally hear about is have a will. You should have a will. Have a trust. If you have any assets, you should have a trust. Have a 401k and make sure you have a beneficiary. Agreed. These things are the easiest things to do as the executor. Literally within one week of my dad’s passing, we’d already cashed out the 401k. My sister and I had the money. We transferred the cars into our name. We’d transfer the house into my name. Like that all happened within 10 days. However, the administration of your life 

  

Kathi (08:18) 

Yeah. 

  

Okay. 

  

Hmm 

  

Wow. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (08:47) 

needs to be accounted for. A final tax return needs to be done. All of the assets needs to be distributed. You have to get out of the Verizon contract, which is the hardest thing to do. You have to settle every single credit card. You have to shut down the banks. have to like, and none of this is done by your CPA, your tax lawyer. My dad had all the lawyers within a month. They were all gone. And I was just left doing the housework for my dad, just like I do the housework for me. And that’s what people don’t realize. It usually falls to a woman. 

  

Kathi (08:57) 

right? Yeah. 

  

you 

  

It does. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (09:17) 

And it’s all the administration. Like I’m getting my PhD now and the only literature that we have about this is widowed women who have so much hard time being the administrator of their spouse’s estate. Because you’re also grieved. It’s not like you’re like, yeah, I’m gonna add this to my checklist. No, you’re all of sudden sometimes unexpectedly planning a funeral for someone you love. And now you realize that you were named in their will as the executor. And you’re like, I don’t even know what that is. 

  

Kathi (09:30) 

And yes. 

  

Yeah, and it’s interesting because, my mom’s done all this stuff and I’m the executor of her will and I really don’t understand it all because all of this happened with her parents when I was, yeah, I was in the middle of diapers, you know, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t think it through. But as I’ve seen friends go through it and they talk about this, this huge burden and you’re right, like, you know, who’s the executor of ours is one of our daughters. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (09:59) 

too young. Yep. 

  

Kathi (10:14) 

Because we know she’ll show up and we know she’ll do the right things and not that the boys wouldn’t but yeah, well anyway, that’s a different discussion. We love our boys, but I think that when we say the word estate, we think vast riches and wealth and most of us. Yeah, I would not think of those things as the estate, right? Okay, so. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (10:32) 

And I mean your water bill, your garbage bill, your Verizon bill. Right, that’s your estate. 

  

Kathi (10:45) 

My next question is, you know what? We’re gonna take a quick break. We’re gonna go pay some bills. We’re gonna come back. And then I wanna talk about how do you actually get started with, like what’s in here? You’ve told us a little bit, but like what’s actually in here? And I need some easy steps to get started because if you say, Kathi, I need you to copy your entire financial history or your mom’s entire financial history into this. 

  

It’s a very short interview. So we’re gonna take a podcast break. We’re gonna come back and then we’re gonna get started with that question. 

  

 BREAK 11:19 

  

Kathi (11:34) 

Guys, I am back with Lisa Woodruff, who is the founder of Organize 365, and she is the creator of the PaperSolution Financial Binder. And when we were first talking financial binder, I’m like, why do I need a binder for my bank account? But really, what your end goal with this binder is what? That somebody can do what with it? 

  

Lisa Woodruff (12:00) 

that if anything were to happen to me, that someone could step in and be power of attorney and ultimately settle my estate. Like we’re all gonna live to be forever, know, a million years old. Don’t worry about it. Nothing is happening to you. However, once you’ve settled in a state, you’re like, my gosh, like if you’ve ever settled in a state, the first thing you do is you go home and you clean out your storage room because you’re like, I am not leaving this problem for someone else. And my husband and I are gonna settle at least five estates. You know, we have siblings and we’re both the oldest. We both have parents. 

  

Kathi (12:09) 

Absolutely. Right. 

  

Hmm, yeah. 

  

Right. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (12:27) 

They were divorced, so they have, you know, like we are listed on everybody’s. So that is the ultimate, but you know, that’s so far down the road. Then you can like kick this can and be like, I’m not going to do this. So what is in the binder? Number one, you do have some things that you just need. You would put in a file cabinet. So instead of a file cabinet, you’re going to put it your financial binder, like your latest 401k statement. I always keep my social security statement. 

  

Kathi (12:29) 

yeah. 

  

Mm -hmm. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (12:53) 

Like I’m not hope, I don’t know if I’ll ever get this money, but I’m keeping the letters that they send like every couple of years. birth certificate, I put my passport in there, put our marriage certificate in there, my kids adoption certificates are in there, so any of those kind of important papers. I do have in there like our credit report when we get a credit report. If we sign up for a new credit card, I put the credit card in there, so like I just have like that introductory thing that you’re probably never gonna need it. 

  

Kathi (12:55) 

Right. Yes. 

  

Mm -hmm. 

  

interesting, yeah. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (13:19) 

but you want to put it in file cabinet, you might as well put it in here. You’re really making a scavenger hunt for yourself and others. So if you need it. So like if you pay off a car, that goes in there, like all of our car information is in there. All of my insurance information is in there, life insurance, but also fire, auto, all of that insurance. Anything related to our security system is in there, ADT. Again, life insurance will pay out within a week. Like anything that has a beneficiary attached to it, you will get the money like, 

  

Kathi (13:22) 

Yeah. 

  

Yeah. Yes. 

  

Hmm. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (13:47) 

It’s almost instantaneous. It’s amazing how fast it happens. And the more organized you are, the better. So my husband has a couple of different retirement accounts. I have a couple of retirement accounts. Whenever they give you the annual statement, I just replace it in there and shred the old one. It’s just kind of like you would in your file cabinet. So that’s number one. Just anything you would file, it goes in there and you just keep the most recent one. 

  

Kathi (13:56) 

Right? 

  

smart. Right. 

  

Okay, I love that. Go ahead. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (14:13) 

So then the second thing is, you I had my father pass, I had a couple of employees who also had settled estates we started compiling all the things that we had to find that we didn’t know we had to find. Like my dad had been in the military. I didn’t know he had a military ID number. I mean, that was before I was even born. Like, so that kind of thing. So you would just write down your military ID number. It’s like a Mad Libs. You know that where you would fill in and you make the funny story. 

  

Kathi (14:25) 

All right. 

  

Right? 

  

Hmm. Yes. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (14:37) 

So there’s like a line for all kinds of stuff that you may or may not have, but if you have it and it’s your binder, then you just fill that information out. Stuff that you wouldn’t even have on the computer or in your file cabinet is just like you knew that you were in the military, even if your grandchildren don’t know that you were. So that’s kind of like being able to fill things out. And then you can also like put post -it notes in there. Like we do have banking information, we have bank information sheets, and we just ask you where you bank, what kind of a bank account it is. 

  

Kathi (14:52) 

Right. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (15:05) 

what the password is, if you have a safety deposit box, where is it located? What’s the number? You know, I mean, you just forget about these things. You don’t need to put down your bank balances. You could even just put, like for me, I could just put down US Bank, 11 accounts, because we do, we have 11 accounts. Like once you get into US Bank, they’re going to give you everything you need. But maybe my family doesn’t know I also have Huntington Bank, and that’s where I keep some of our money for a future business we’re going to purchase, land that we’re going to purchase to build our future. 

  

Kathi (15:10) 

right, yes. 

  

Hmm? 

  

Yeah. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (15:34) 

building and so it’s not in our main bank account. You may not realize we have two banks. So here’s a great story and why I really started making this financial binder. Quite a few of the people that I organized in Cincinnati were widows. So they would call me in to help them, especially with the paper. They were very overwhelmed. They’d gotten, you know, the life insurance and that it was this detritus that was holding them up and they weren’t used to doing all the bills. And so we would go through their file of cabinets and this one woman’s husband had 

  

80 binders, 80. He had kept every single paper transaction of every single financial thing he had ever done because it was his hobby. And they were like mutual funds. They weren’t even things where you had to like know the transaction because the value, wasn’t a stock, although he did have stock also. And so she had a bank, Fifth Third, and we went to the bank and we found four bank accounts, which she knew all these bank accounts. And I’m going through her mail every single month. I’m going down there and going through and you can sort paper without looking at like what the dollar amount of values are. It’s weird trick. 

  

Kathi (16:11) 

my word. 

  

right? Yeah. 

  

Mm 

  

Lisa Woodruff (16:34) 

professional organizers can do. And I’m looking at these bank accounts, I’m like, I swear there’s a fifth bank account, you know, and I’m kind of dyslexic, so I’m not really looking at the numbers, but I’m like, I think we’re always getting five. And she’s like, do you want to go to the bank? I’m like, I do. And like the estate was almost settled, like we’re a year after. We’re there at the bank and they’re like, Mrs. Woodruff, there are only four accounts here. We’ve gone through this, like we’re ready to settle the estate. Everything’s been closed. Everything’s been transacted. I was like, I just think there’s a fifth account. 

  

And they’re like, do you want us to look for it again? I said, I do. And I’m like a people pleaser. So I’m like, wow, I’m really out on a limb here. Now I’m telling my client we’re at the bank. I’m telling the banker. Kathi, there was another $100 ,000 bank account. This man had set up an LLC and she was like, my gosh, I remember this now. He had put it aside for our dream home we were going to build someday. Cause he died of a massive heart attack, like on the way home from a, he was in his 60s, but he wasn’t really old. 

  

Kathi (17:08) 

bright. Yes. 

  

What? 

  

right. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (17:31) 

She’s like, I forgot about it. He had created an LLC. So that’s why it didn’t show up when they ran all the social security numbers and we didn’t run across and he didn’t put that LLC paperwork in any of the 80 binders that I went through. And so I have more than one story like this where you just are living your life at breakneck speed and you’re like, just like trying to keep it. I’ll do that later. I’ll do that later. I’ll do that later. And you in your head know and you remember in your head there’s a fifth bank account. 

  

Kathi (17:36) 

Yes, because it’s a totally different entity. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Right! 

  

Lisa Woodruff (18:00) 

But there’s literally no trail of it anywhere in this house. $100 ,000, Kathi, $100 ,000. 

  

Kathi (18:07) 

And who knows what would have ever, know, where that would show up if there would ever be another statement. Yes. my goodness. And here’s what I’ve come to learn is that we don’t know our parents as well as we think we do. And right? They’ve had these lives that we’ve been privy to, you know, just a section of. And so we… 

  

Lisa Woodruff (18:14) 

It never, it wouldn’t, it wasn’t going to show up ever. Yep. 

  

True. Yeah. 

  

Yes. 

  

Kathi (18:37) 

We don’t even know the questions to ask sometimes. And that’s why I like that the binder is very comprehensive because it asks questions. Yeah, like my mom and dad were never part of the military. And so it feels good that you can say, I don’t have to worry about any of that stuff. Yes, exactly. But you know, I just recently had a client, not a clutter client, a writing client who was getting rid of a bunch of 

  

Lisa Woodruff (18:52) 

Not that one. 

  

Kathi (19:06) 

books and binders and things from her mom. And she goes, you know, we settled the estate, you know, this was a decade ago. And she decided she just needed to go through this one binder just to make sure, just to make sure she wasn’t missing any little piece of information. And I can’t remember what the paperwork was, but the paperwork that was in there that they had never seen before entitled them to financial 

  

compensation that her son, so the deceased grandson, was able to put a new roof on his house. And if you’ve ever put a new roof on your house, you know how crazy expensive that is. And for my client to pay off some huge debts. it’s like, I think, wouldn’t grandma be devastated if that money had not gone to that, right? 

  

Lisa Woodruff (19:45) 

See. 

  

if you lost that. And you know, you talk about clutter and we see clutter everywhere and paper is small and tiny and overwhelming. And so we can really cram a lot of paper in a banker’s box. Like we could cram it in there and shove it in the bottom of closet and we’ll take another one and shove it somewhere else. And then we got the laundry basket over here and we’re like, I don’t really have that much paper cause it’s like all over your house. And the other thing I noticed as an in -home professional organizer, which I am not anyway. 

  

Kathi (20:05) 

Right, something that she had worked so hard for. 

  

Yes. Yes. 

  

right? 

  

Mm 

  

Lisa Woodruff (20:33) 

anymore. I do it online now. But I still do this in home and we have a certification for this is paper organizing retreats. Because when I would organize paper, I promise you, you start organizing paper 30 minutes in you’re like, where is the wine and I’m out of here. Like, it’s just too much and you don’t know what to do with it and you’re afraid you shouldn’t get rid of it. So you just stop again. But people there’s somebody that loaded their RV full of paper and drove it here from Canada. People will drive 18 hours with their paper. We have a weekend paper organizing retreat. 

  

Kathi (20:33) 

Okay. Okay. 

  

Right. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (21:02) 

And we have shredding on site because we have professional organizers here, which I know you don’t like that, but you do in this case. And they will, now 50 % of the people coming have lost a spouse or have lost a parent. And they’re just going through all of that paperwork and they just want us to say, shred, keep, shred, keep, you know, and then they’re like, okay, now I’ll go settle the estate because it’s so much work and it’s so rude. Like your life doesn’t stop when you have to settle somebody else’s estate. Like it just keeps spinning. 

  

Kathi (21:06) 

Yeah. Yeah. 

  

Right. 

  

Yes. 

  

Right? don’t get six months off of work in order to do that. And I think that we are so scared to throw away that one magical piece of paper. it’s so hard to know if this piece of paper is going to be what you need, the key to everything. so I love that the, there are a couple of things I love about the binder. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (21:30) 

No, it’s so hard. 

  

Yes. 

  

Yes. 

  

Kathi (21:54) 

One, it asks all the right questions. And two, I don’t even know how else to put this, Lisa. It’s a landing place. It’s like a safe landing place, right? And like, what I love what you said is when I get my social security statement, I can throw away the last one because I know that I have the most recent one and then the rest of it can go away. Like I know that when I pay off 

  

Lisa Woodruff (22:02) 

Yes. Hug it. Yeah. 

  

Mm -hmm. Yes. 

  

Kathi (22:24) 

my car note that I know where I am going to put it. And as somebody who lived through the Caldor fire and was out of her house, you know what? I’m very grateful. Our town lost over a thousand structures, almost 800 homes, and we lost two acres of property, but it never came to our house, but it burned on all four sides. And so 

  

Lisa Woodruff (22:26) 

Yes. 

  

I’m sorry. 

  

I’m sorry. 

  

Kathi (22:53) 

We left, we know, you know, for three weeks we were out of our house. We couldn’t get back in. And for three days we didn’t, we assumed that our house was gone. And you know, and I, we did have one binder that we picked up and took with us, but it wasn’t as comprehensive. And yes, it was like your brain after you leave the house says, where’s that? Where’s that thing? And 

  

Lisa Woodruff (22:54) 

So you know. Yeah. 

  

can’t even imagine. 

  

Kathi (23:22) 

You know, the other thing I love that what you said is about Post -it notes to be able to say, here’s where you can find the key to the box that you need. Here’s, you know, some, you know, there are some weird things that, you know, everybody’s life is weird, right? We all have that one little thing. Like my mom’s weird thing is, Kathi, don’t donate all the milk glass when I die. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (23:28) 

Stick it in there. Yes. 

  

Kathi (23:49) 

You know that stuff’s valuable. It’s like okay mom I promised her I won’t do that and I know as we go through the binder there will be a note about the milk glass because that’s really important her like question You know the things that are unique to each of us like my mom’s a quilter What do you want me to do with the quilt to have a place to put all those answers? That isn’t between your two temples is so so important Lisa. Yeah 

  

Lisa Woodruff (24:08) 

Hmm. Yes. 

  

and that will give her so much peace because she’ll know she communicated it to you and it will give you so much peace because you’ll know what you can donate and what you really, you know, can’t donate immediately. And also one thing before we go, go ahead and put your passwords in there. Like no one, I promise you, everybody’s like, I can’t put my passwords in here. Trust me, if they come into your house and they go buy the 80 inch TV and they go for your financial binder, which is unlabeled, that is an unusual burglar, no one’s coming in your house to get your passwords to whatever. 

  

Kathi (24:17) 

Yes, that’s what I want. Right. 

  

Right. Yes, please. Yes. 

  

Yes. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (24:45) 

put your passwords in there. Just put them in there. Even if you just put a post in another good, use US bank, my banker is Tony and here’s my password or whatever. And also go to the bank and just drop off the power of attorney so that they know like, you’re not gonna need it today. But when you do need it, you’ll be so grateful that you did the work ahead of time. And if you don’t do the work ahead of time because you’re pushing off, because you just wanna test your limits, just know that this resource is here. 

  

Kathi (24:46) 

Yes. 

  

Right. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (25:11) 

and it will be a lifeline. And along with that, you get the organized 365 community of people who are also doing these same binders. They’re all living the same experience you’re living, which makes you feel like you’re not going through it alone. 

  

Kathi (25:22) 

You know, I’m going to also highlight something else that you just said there. Talk to Tony. Because, you know, what we’ve told our daughter is, you know, God forbid something happens to us, our neighbor, which where we live, she’s 30 minutes away, Susie. Yeah, yeah, we live in the forest, but go talk to Susie because she knows about mountain living. She knows about 

  

Lisa Woodruff (25:29) 

Yeah. 

  

Sheesh. 

  

Kathi (25:50) 

She’s an author. I’m an author. Like she’s the key to so much information so you don’t have to figure it out on your own. And I love that you said that, you know, talk to Tony at the bank, leave a little roadmap of the people who are going to be helpful because our children will be sad when we pass and to have people there who can help take care of them, to help take care of your brothers and sisters and all of that is so critical. If you could give. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (25:57) 

Right. 

  

Kathi (26:18) 

Just one piece of advice before they get the binder like what they could do right now because I know like you said when you settle in the state you want to go clean out your storage unit, right? What they’re gonna listen to this and say I want to go do something right now and guys we’re gonna give you the link and we’ve got we’ve got a a code for you know, we’re gonna we’re gonna set you up well Because guys whether you’re buying this for yourself or for your parents This is gonna save somebody 

  

weeks worth of work. So what’s the one piece of advice you could give Lisa for somebody to do right now? 

  

Lisa Woodruff (26:50) 

so much time. 

  

Okay, super simple. I want you to go get your favorite container or basket that’s in your house. And I want you to set it aside and I want you to put a post -it note on it that says financial binder. And then as you come across anything that would go in a financial binder, I want it to go in this basket. As you think, that’s right, I wanna write this down, write down a note card, put it in the basket so that when you do get the financial binder, you already have some of your ideas, some of your papers. 

  

Kathi (27:01) 

Mm -hmm. 

  

yes. 

  

Mmm 

  

Lisa Woodruff (27:21) 

And you could keep on your decluttering journey and going through with all your friends, all the things you do with Kathi and all the different groups that you’re in. But anything financial at a minimum has to start going in this basket and start separating it out from all the other places it is so that even if you don’t have the financial binder yet, you have the beginning. 

  

Kathi (27:39) 

I love it so much. This is so great. Okay, guys, check the show notes. You’ll see how to get this. Guys, you know, I’m doing this because I’m using it. I only recommend things to you that I’m actually doing and I am doing this because, you know, we have probably three estates that are going to need to be settled in the next 20 to 30 years. And I don’t want to put that burden on somebody else. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (27:59) 

Mm 

  

Kathi (28:06) 

They’re already going to have to go through my closet. That’s enough for any human being. right. Lisa, thank you so much for being with us today. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (28:14) 

Thank you. 

  

Kathi (28:15) 

And guys, I’m gonna make sure that you have the link to Lisa’s website so you can go check out her other resources because if you’re feeling overwhelmed by any portion of your life, there’s gonna be a way to organize it on Lisa’s website. I’ve checked it out guys, you’re gonna wanna go check it out. And friends, Lisa was here, but friends, we’re so grateful you’ve been here. Thank you for listening to Clutter Free Academy, I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go live the clutter free life you were always intended to live. 

  

Lisa Woodruff (28:31) 

Thanks. 

 

 

 

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Hey there, friend!

In today’s episode, we’re diving deep into the power of the words we use when it comes to our clutter – not just the things we say out loud, but those whispers in our hearts that can either paralyze us or propel us forward.

In this eye-opening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with authors Angie Hyche and Liana George to discuss the powerful impact of language on our decluttering journey. The trio explores the common phrases – or “dirty words” – that keep people stuck in cycles of clutter and shame.

Listeners will discover:

  • Why no one is “born organized” and how organization is a learned skill
  • The real meaning behind “just in case” thinking and how it relates to fear
  • The importance of starting small and celebrating progress
  • Why cleaning and organizing are “morally neutral” activities

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, ashamed, or just plain stuck when it comes to decluttering, this episode is for you.

Join the Clutter Free Academy Facebook Group to receive your 30-Day 1K Calendar to help track your progress. Remember to answer all three questions to join the group! It’s how we keep it the nicest corner of the internet.

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup here and sign up to receive your free ebook featuring four week’s worth of easy meal plans and delicious recipes.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Can you share a personal story of how negative self-talk affected your own organizing journey?

Share in the comments!

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Meet Our Guests

 

Liana George & Angie Hyche

Angie Hyche is an author, speaker, and professional organizer. She’s the author of Unholy Mess: What the Bible Says about Clutter, co-author of Uncluttered: Shaping Your Heart & Home for What Matters Most, and co-host of the Uncluttered podcast. She loves helping people simplify so they can prioritize what matters most.

Liana George is an author, podcaster, and speaker based in Texas. Her first three novels are based on her experiences as a professional organizer and her time in China. When she’s not organizing or writing, you’ll find her reading, traveling, watching tennis, or keeping up her small farm in Houston.

Connect with Angie Hyche and Liana George on their website https://uncluttered.faith/ and on social media https://www.facebook.com/uncluttered.faith and https://www.instagram.com/uncluttered.faith/

 

Tonya Kubo Picture
Transcript

Kathi (00:01.578)

Okay, this is, we’re talking with Angie Hyche and Liana George, and we are talking about the dirty words. So you editors are gonna be very intrigued by this. okay, five, four, three, two, one.

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. Today, we’re diving into a topic that I hope is, as much as we talk about what to do with your hands when it comes to decluttering, I’m hoping that this is going to help your head. That’s my goal for today, and that’s the goal of my two guests, because…

If you’ve ever caught yourself saying, I’ll get to that someday, or I’m just not an organized person. Okay, by the way, nobody’s actually born organized. Can we just be really honest about that? I wanna talk about language today, and so do my two guests. We wanna talk about the language, not just the language you use with the people you love in your home, but the language you use with yourself. I have two amazing guests. First,

I have Angie Hyche and we also have Liana George. Okay guys, sorry. We have Angie Hyche and Liana George. They are the co-authors of the new book, Uncluttered, Shaping Your Heart and Home for What Matters Most. And you guys, you know that’s my jam, right? And they are the co-hosts of the Uncluttered podcast. So we’ve got a bunch of people who love to talk about clutter.

or actually who love to talk about decluttering? Angie is also the author of Unholy Mess, What the Bible Says About Clutter and a professional organizer. And if you don’t think that the Bible talks about clutter, let’s just talk about how a lot of the little red bits of the New Testament are about what you own and what you love. And so I don’t know of a better definition of that than clutter. Liana?

Kathi (02:14.37)

Is a novelist whose first three books draw from her experiences as a professional organizer and her time in China my goodness. Okay. We have so much to talk about ladies. Welcome to the podcast. I’m so glad to have you here today

Angie Hyche (02:29.41)

Thank you, Kathi. We have been looking forward to this for so long. So thank you.

Liana George (02:29.636)

Thank you.

Kathi (02:34.582)

Well, and that’s because your emails kind of got buried in my inbox. That’s why it was so long, but you guys have been so gracious. Liana, I have to ask about your time in China, was that military? Was that missionary? What was that?

Liana George (02:42.214)

Thank

Liana George (02:51.164)

No, it was neither. It was my husband’s company decided to build a facility there And so they moved us there in three weeks. We had three weeks to move Yes, three weeks. We went there July 4th of 2006 and I was back by August 8th So my kids could start school. So yeah, so I really needed to be organized to get an overseas move

Kathi (02:52.941)

Okay.

Kathi (02:56.809)

Nice!

Kathi (03:01.196)

What?

Kathi (03:12.078)

my goodness. Okay. The reason I was so intrigued by that little detail was because I was a missionary in Japan for a year. And talk about a culture change. Yes. So my goodness. Okay, I definitely have to pick up that book. Okay, so I’ll get some book recommendations from you at the end.

When you guys first pitched this idea to me about what you come on and talk about, one of the subjects you gave me was the dirty words of organizing. I’m like, okay, that’s scandalous enough that I am dying to find out what you’re talking about. So Liana, here’s my question. What do you mean by the dirty words of organizing?

Liana George (04:35.214)

Yeah, it’s it’s it is. It’s enough to grab your attention and that’s the whole point. We want to grab your attention because so many times, like you said earlier, you know, it’s the work of our hands that we do when we get organized, but we don’t understand the power that our language has on our efforts to get organized. And so many times we use phrases or words that can severely hamper whatever we’re trying to do. And it’s words like some day later.

Kathi (04:40.302)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (04:51.351)

Mmm.

Liana George (05:05.156)

just in case, I don’t know, or I can’t, right? And so they’re dirty in that, just like the dirty words that we grow up learning not to say, they are, they’re scandalous, right? And they hamper and they hurt us. They don’t, not only, got, when I was working with clients, I’d heard them so much, I was like, you’re hurting my ears, please stop saying that.

Kathi (05:31.48)

Mmm.

Liana George (05:32.552)

So that was, I was like, you know, trying to reframe the way they spoke because we, as we know, the words have power. And so when we use these words, we can either help our efforts or hurt our efforts.

Kathi (05:40.462)

Yeah.

Kathi (05:46.84)

So this is really interesting to me because I’ve got people in my life, some people who, you know, they just naturally tend towards clutter or, you know, maybe they even have hoarding tendencies. And I feel like so often the dirty words aren’t aimed at the stuff, they’re aimed at ourselves. And I wonder…

Angie Hyche (06:08.332)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:11.958)

Okay, so let’s talk about when it’s me, when I’m the one who’s saying, I can’t, I’ll do it later. I don’t have, you know, I don’t have the time right now. I don’t have the energy right now, which could all be true. I, you know, I have been at times in my life where decluttering was the last thing on my list. You know, we were in survival mode, but we, we have to, we have to set our own sea level of what, you know, survival is.

So how do these words affect ourselves, Angie? And then how can we start to, well, let me ask you this Angie, what are the words that you bristle at? know, Liana told us hers, but I would love to hear the ones that you bristle at. And how do you start to change that conversation?

Angie Hyche (07:05.304)

I think the ones, the specific ones that I tend to hear the most and that bother me the most is the just in case. I need to keep this just in case because I might need it. And, you know, there are, there’s, there’s such extremes with that, you know, to say, well, I better take my umbrella just in case it rains. Well, that’s pretty legit, you know, it might, but some of our just in cases are so outlandish.

Kathi (07:13.486)

Mmm.

Kathi (07:17.484)

Yeah.

Kathi (07:22.168)

Mm

Kathi (07:29.152)

Right.

Kathi (07:34.988)

Mm -hmm.

Angie Hyche (07:35.446)

You know, to say, I’m going to keep six months of supplies just in case of a zombie apocalypse is completely different. So, so many times with each of these, we talk about, here’s what we’re saying. Here’s what we’re really saying though. And so with the just in case what we’re, think many, many times what we’re saying down deep is

Kathi (07:53.792)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Angie Hyche (08:04.63)

I’m afraid. I’m afraid that if I let this go, I’m not going to have the opportunity to have it again. And ultimately, at its deepest level, it’s, God’s not going to take care of me. He does not have my back. And that’s pretty deep.

Kathi (08:06.304)

It, you know, yeah.

Kathi (08:21.294)

Yeah, long-time listeners of this podcast will know that I talk about the fear, guilt, and shame of clutter, fear, what if I need it someday, guilt, but so and so gave it to me and shame, I spent so much money on it. And like, those are the three reasons that we keep things are fear, guilt, and shame. And what you’re talking about here is a deep fear. You know, if we had

Angie Hyche (08:29.492)

Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. yes.

Angie Hyche (08:41.677)

Mm

Angie Hyche (08:46.249)

Mm

Kathi (08:47.286)

grandparents who went through the depression, the thought, you know, and that’s been passed down to their kids and sometimes us, you know, you can’t throw anything away because what you’re saying is I don’t value anything and yet we just live in a land and a time of abundance. It’s not so much so I mean, there are people who let’s be clear, they don’t have enough food, they don’t have enough resources.

Angie Hyche (09:03.22)

Mm

Angie Hyche (09:08.46)

Yes.

Kathi (09:15.554)

But for those of us who are listening to a clutter podcast, that’s probably not the situation as much as it is. I don’t know what I have. So I have to buy more. so how do you start to, you know what, we’re going to take a quick break, but then I’m going to come back to you, Liana, and ask, how do we start to, I always call it, you know, I like to call it, how do we gently parent ourselves?

Angie Hyche (09:22.892)

Yes.

Angie Hyche (09:26.924)

Mm

Kathi (09:44.952)

to not be so hard on ourselves, but to say, there a different way of thinking? So I’m gonna come back and ask you that question when we’re done with our commercial. We’ll be right back.

Angie Hyche (09:45.029)

Mm.

Kathi (09:57.728)

Okay friends, we’re back and I just put Liana on the spot, because that’s what we do on a podcast about how do we start talking to ourselves in a different way? We wouldn’t tell our kids, don’t be afraid, just suck it up. But that’s how we talk to ourselves so much of the time, isn’t it? Like what you’re feeling is stupid, stop it. And we would never talk to a child or a dear friend that way, but we can be so hard on ourselves. So how do we start to…

Liana George (10:14.203)

it in.

Kathi (10:24.734)

unpack this fear that’s making us hang on to things that we don’t really need and start to have a new conversation.

Liana George (10:33.242)

Yeah, so one of the things that we encourage in the book, because this is one of our devotionals, you know, talking about these words. And so one of the things that we encourage people to do for the practical part of this, and like you said, to start talking to ourselves, is to write down what are the words that I do say? What are the words that I hear myself saying when I’m organizing or decluttering? And, you know, write those down and then write down

what do you think you’re really saying? Like Angie said a minute ago, what are we deep down really trying to saying to ourselves? And then write down, how can I reframe that question differently? And just by I think going through that, taking the time to go through those little steps, I think can help us really understand, wait, you know, this is, this isn’t what I meant, because, but because I’m acting out of this, either it’s

fear, confusion, misunderstanding, doubt, you know. And then once you can identify those, I think it’s easier for you to process that information and then start speaking differently.

Kathi (11:46.574)

So I’m going to give you some common phrases that I hear when it comes. This is like $60 ,000 pyramid. I’m going to give you the common phrase, and I need the response. OK, and I’m going to go back and forth with you guys. So Angie, we’re going to start with you. I just don’t know where to put it.

Angie Hyche (11:51.234)

Okay.

Angie Hyche (12:01.59)

Yes. All right.

Angie Hyche (12:07.0)

yeah. this is similar to, well, I’ll just put it here for now. this is, this is so common. And I think usually what we mean when we say that is, well, I don’t really want to deal with this.

Kathi (12:15.018)

Right, yeah.

Kathi (12:31.926)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Angie Hyche (12:33.354)

And our excuse is, well, I don’t know where to put it. I don’t want to deal with this. And so then what ends up happening is that item becomes clutter because we put it on the kitchen counter or on the floor or whatever. it’s, it’s, it’s basically, it’s just kind of an excuse to procrastinate. so I think, when we do that, you know, I’ll do it later. I’ll do this just for now. Then many times the later never really comes around.

Kathi (12:49.837)

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (13:03.256)

And whereas if we take the time to do it correctly, then that clutter is not going to build up. know, our book is a devotional book and scripture and one of the scriptures that’s good for this one is Proverbs 13 for lazy people, what much, but get little, but those who work hard will prosper. Now, is it laziness in every situation? No, no, not necessarily, but sometimes it is like, just don’t want to deal with it.

Kathi (13:26.498)

No. Yeah.

Angie Hyche (13:32.994)

So it comes back to that principle that organizers are notorious for saying because it’s so important, having a home for everything. And if you have a home for everything, that pickup is just a breeze. Okay, here’s this. I know where that goes up. I’ll go ahead and… But it’s those items that we haven’t yet established the home for that end up becoming clutter because we haven’t gone through the thinking to try to establish that home.

Kathi (13:40.81)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (14:00.314)

Yeah, I think very few people are actually lazy. I think that they are just so overwhelmed and it’s more of a mental exhaustion than it is a physical. You know, there are times when I’m like, yeah, I’m done for the day because I’ve been working hard all day and it’s like it is time for a little Netflix and you know, whatever I made for dinner. Yes, please. But I think so much of the time, you know, I look at these people who

Angie Hyche (14:05.418)

Mm -hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Angie Hyche (14:23.276)

absolutely.

Kathi (14:29.272)

who struggle with clutter and they’re not lazy. They’re loving their neighbors. They’re cooking for other families. They are working hard at work and when they get home, they cannot make one more decision. Liana, what do you do for the person who is like, I’m just overwhelmed? And by the way, I wrote a book called Overwhelmed and I think overwhelmed is a terrible term because

Angie Hyche (14:37.025)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:57.41)

We can’t get to the heart of what it is, but when somebody’s overwhelmed, how do you determine what is it that’s at the heart of that indecision?

Liana George (15:07.728)

Yeah, I mean, like you said, I agree completely. Decision fatigue is a real thing. It is. And whether you have been busy all day working and you have to come home and you’re like, cannot make one more decision, or you’ve just been decluttering and you’re like, I do not know what to do or how to make any more decisions about my stuff. It’s a real thing. And we can become overwhelmed. We can become frustrated. And I think what we have to do is just when we get to that

We really just need to stop and we need to tell ourselves we’ve done enough for today and it’s okay. We can start again tomorrow. Or, you know, maybe we try not to conquer everything and we try to go for smaller portions so that it’s not so overwhelming and daunting. So I think we need to start small and I think we need to start small in places that are the most impactful.

So I think if you start small, it’s, I always tell people what small space can we change today that will make a difference in your life tomorrow? And sometimes that could be, maybe it’s the kitchen. I can’t get my family’s food on the table because the dining room’s too cluttered. Or maybe it’s just your bathroom sink where you get things ready in the morning with your hair and makeup.

So it’s just maybe starting something small. And I think just making those small little tweaks or decisions can make a big difference.

Kathi (16:39.33)

You know, I was just gonna ask Angie, but I feel like you just answered it. can talk more about this. But I think so often, part of the reason of our frustration is our expectations are out of line with our reality. That kitchen table took three weeks to get to that state. And we expect it to be cleaned up.

Angie Hyche (16:54.626)

Mm -hmm.

Angie Hyche (17:02.338)

Yeah.

Kathi (17:05.486)

in 10 minutes and we get frustrated with ourselves that we can’t do it in 10 minutes. It’s that all-or-nothing thinking. So Angie, how do we combat all-or-nothing thinking with being gentle with ourselves without beating ourselves up?

Angie Hyche (17:21.836)

Yeah. So I think I love how you came back to, know, most of the time it’s not laziness and I agree. and, but it’s also true that like the more frequently we do these little, I’m a big fan of daily pickup, like five minutes daily pickup. So if we’re doing that, even if it’s not every day, even if it’s three or four days a week, we’re spending five minutes.

Kathi (17:41.38)

Yeah, yeah.

Angie Hyche (17:51.376)

the amount of clutter will be so much less when we do get around to, to working on it. and I think that the key thing about these dirty words, whatever we do, they just leave us so paralyzed. And, and if we start saying, you, can’t believe you, you’ve let this go so long and, and, you’re the worst.

That’s just gonna leave us exactly in our tracks. Whereas if we say, okay, this is definitely not the state that I want it to be. I’ve let things go a little too long, but it’s okay. God loves me no matter what, no matter what kind of mess I’m in. So what can I do right now? What time do I have? How can I spend the next… How long do I… Let’s say I have five, 10 minutes. Okay.

Kathi (18:29.984)

Bye.

Angie Hyche (18:49.24)

If my goal is to get my family dinner on the table, can I spend five or 10 minutes clearing this space and then say, okay, so for the, for right now, I had to set these things over here just for now because we needed to eat dinner. So tomorrow during that time, I’m going to work on the things that I had to set aside and just, just forgive yourself for no one can keep up with that all the time. I mean, we look at these things on Pinterest or in a

Kathi (19:02.693)

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (19:18.228)

home magazines or look at that my home should look like that nobody’s home looks like that unless they’re just getting ready to have somebody over really influential you know it’s okay yes exactly

Kathi (19:22.735)

Nobody does, yeah.

Kathi (19:27.936)

Or they’re selling their house. Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask this question as we’re wrapping up here. You know, I’ve got people in my, well, I’ve got a lot of people in my life, because we run a big group, Clutterfree Academy. And, you know, people are so hard on themselves. But I also have people in my life who, you know,

Liana George (19:29.914)

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (19:50.7)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (19:55.971)

well, of course my house is a mess, it’s always a mess, or they’re just so hard on themselves. And I try to come back with, it’s okay, you’re a wonderful person, let me help you, let’s figure this out together. And by the way, I’m sure people tell you this all the time, I could never have you guys, have you over to my house.

And I’m like, no, I’m the person you can absolutely have to your house because I’ve had to dig out of it. totally get it. So Liana, what do we tell to the person that we love that is, that is just, they, the dirty words are about them, that I’m a mess. I can’t take care of it. you know, my house is always a mess. There’s something.

intrinsically wrong with me. How do we speak life to that person that we love and we know that they’re a good person, but they do struggle with clutter?

Liana George (21:00.168)

And that’s really, I think, really, really important and that we do that. And I just want to say to your point of, you know, people saying, I can’t have you over. I always tell them I’m a judgment-free zone, right? Because like you said, there are times when my house is a mess and we all have it. But for those who are struggling with their identity in this organization, you know, one perfection is not a real thing.

Kathi (21:11.704)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (21:17.196)

Mm

Liana George (21:27.696)

You know, we need to let that go. But two, being organized is a learned skill. It’s like you said earlier, you know, nobody is born that way. is some that granted. I believe that there are some people who have a more natural tendency for it than others. But it is definitely a learned skill that anybody can learn to do. And so, you know, don’t be so hard on yourself because the other thing you have to remember is you’ve got your own organizing style.

Kathi (21:55.479)

Yes.

Liana George (21:56.378)

I think so many times people compare what they see on TV or in magazines and they think that they have to do it just like that. And when they do it just like that and they try it for a few weeks and it doesn’t work, then they are like, I’m a failure. See, I can never be organized. And that’s only because they just haven’t found the system or the style that works for them. And so I would tell them, be gentle with yourself and figure out what works for you.

Kathi (22:13.56)

Yeah.

Kathi (22:24.962)

Mm -hmm.

Liana George (22:25.626)

try something and if it doesn’t, you if you see that this isn’t working doing it this way or having them, you know, with lids or in covered bins, then you know what? Next time try using bins with no lids and clear bins, right? So you can maybe see what is different. And I mean, it took me, okay, I’m a professional organizer. It took me years to figure out my own children. They’re organizing style, right? And once I did, was like a light bulb went off.

Kathi (22:39.95)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (22:51.522)

right? Yes. Yes.

Liana George (22:54.382)

And we could have peace in our house because I didn’t expect them to organize like me and I could see what their strengths were and they’re organizing and it made a world of difference. But it took us a long time to figure it out.

Kathi (23:05.782)

You know, it’s so funny. I just had a couple of people over at my house and they were cooking in my kitchen and they’re like, your kitchen is so organized. I can’t, you know, I, could never get mine this organized. I’m like, guys, it’s not that I’m more organized than you. I’ve been willing to rip out more systems than you have. And when I say systems, it’s not like I went and bought a system. It’s like, okay, well, these containers kind of fit here and I could put the lids over here.

Angie Hyche (23:25.471)

That’s good.

Kathi (23:34.614)

and let’s see if that works. And it didn’t work eight times, but the ninth time it did work. And it’s like, okay, if Rubbermaid ever stops manufacturing that size container, I have to start all over again. And you know, like if you move your house, if you move to a new house, you have to start all over again. But what you’ve learned is you’ve learned more about yourself as a person.

Angie Hyche (23:40.352)

Mm -hmm.

Liana George (23:50.897)

Yes.

Kathi (24:01.686)

Like what am I willing to put away and what am I not willing to put away? And I’ve just had to learn that I’m from a mixed marriage where I love putting away my Tupperware Rubbermaid kind of stuff because it finally works. And my husband would rather poke his eyes out than put that stuff away. And I’m like, you know what, for the sake of our marriage, just put it on the counter. I got you, babe. And so, you know, knowing that is good, right? And it’s good and it’s deep. Okay, you guys, this is a devotional.

Angie Hyche (24:02.434)

Mm -hmm.

Angie Hyche (24:23.405)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (24:30.838)

It’s called Uncluttered, shaping your heart and home for what matters most. And guys, as we talk about all the time in Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life, and here on this podcast, the physical clutter is just one aspect of it. But instead of being overwhelmed, start searching for freedom. Start asking yourself questions, because here’s the thing, your organizational system does not define you, but how you approach your stuff.

Angie Hyche (24:45.933)

Thank you.

Kathi (24:59.522)

how you bring God into it and how you work towards peace really does matter. And this is an excellent guide and I’m going to, we’re gonna put the link in the notes so that you guys can go check it out at all of your favorite retailers, Amazon, all those favorite places. We will make sure that you get those links. Angie and Liana, thank you so much for being here today.

Liana George (25:24.408)

Thank you so much for having me.

Angie Hyche (25:24.62)

You are welcome. It’s been a joy. You know, when you were talking about so many times, that whole guilt and shame thing is so strong. I think so many times people will say, I’m not a good wife. I’m not a good mother. Because you look at my house, I’m not, you know, and it’s just, it can be such a stronghold emotionally. I came across someone’s work that I really liked, Casey Davis, her website is Struggle Care.

Kathi (25:32.866)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (25:47.202)

Yeah.

Kathi (25:52.943)

I love Casey. Yes. Yes.

Angie Hyche (25:54.646)

Yeah, but her statement, and I love to say every once in while, cleaning and organizing are morally neutral. That has nothing to do with who you are as a person. You are just as much a loved child of God if your house looks like insanity as you are if, you know, and honestly, like there have been times in my life when I’ve been too concerned with order and not enough concerned with like pouring love into my family. So

Kathi (26:01.356)

They are right.

Angie Hyche (26:24.0)

You can’t, know, it’s difficult to get that exactly right. And so much of it is trial and error. I tried this, this works, this doesn’t work. And it’s constant adjustment. We’re all works in progress.

Kathi (26:35.766)

Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, we never learned anything from perfect people. I only learned from people who are like, you know, like Casey Davis, who I’ve got one of those gripper things because of her for, you know, about two days a month. I, I call them my down days where I just don’t have a lot of energy. I don’t have a lot of strength, but I still want to get things done. And being able to have that little grabber tool.

Angie Hyche (26:42.804)

Mm.

Angie Hyche (26:51.138)

Hmm.

Kathi (27:05.454)

She does things that I don’t need to do because I don’t have a chronic illness, but she has like her laundry basket on wheels and she can scooch around in a chair. Like you do what you have to do. You ask for the help that you need. You bring in the resources that you can. And it doesn’t matter if your mom didn’t do it that way, your best friend didn’t do it that way, or the professional organizer didn’t do it that way. Whatever keeps your nose above water.

Angie Hyche (27:19.424)

Yes.

Kathi (27:34.828)

That’s the right thing to do. And I love that there is that grace in this book. Guys, thanks so much for being here today.

Angie Hyche (27:35.2)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Angie Hyche (27:40.374)

Mm

Liana George (27:42.192)

Thank you.

Angie Hyche (27:42.838)

Thank you, Kathi.

Kathi (27:43.786)

Well, and friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter -Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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