Kathi Lipp (00:11) 

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my friend, my clutter buddy. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. 

  

Tonya Kubo (00:26) 

Hey Kathi! 

  

Kathi Lipp (00:28) 

So I want to talk about something that I know that has been brought up a lot recently, especially in our paid group, Clutterfree for Life. And I know it’s something I’ve struggled with. You’ve talked about struggling with it. is. It makes me angry almost. If it’s the if you can’t do something right, don’t do something at all. If you, you know, OK. 

  

Tonya Kubo (00:47) 

Hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (00:56) 

I will say, you know, we say around here every time, you can have it half donkeyed or you can do it full donkeyed. I’m trying to say it because I know we have a lot of people listening with little ears on. you know, around here, we’re full donkey people. so, but I will say, okay, can I call out a relative here just for a second? 

  

Tonya Kubo (01:13) 

Thank you. 

  

Kathi Lipp (01:24) 

So I was helping somebody at their house recently and I had spent, I don’t know, two hours working on cleaning and vacuuming and doing all the things, right? And then I get done and the sentence was, thank you, but there are still streaks on the window. 

  

Tonya Kubo (01:36) 

Yeah. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (01:52) 

And like, okay. And my goodness, it was so defeating. I’m not going to lie. I’m still a little bitter about it. I am recovering though. And you know, it’s, it, it brings up so much from my childhood, not necessarily from my parents, but from teachers, from neighbors who were like, well, if you can’t do it right, why do it at all? And I have come to learn. 

  

Tonya Kubo (01:57) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Right. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Right. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (02:22) 

that that was probably the motto in every house that a cluttery person has ever grown up in. How did this manifest for you as you were a child going into adulthood? Is that something that you heard and who did you hear from? 

  

Tonya Kubo (02:42) 

No, so like never really heard those words specifically at home. I mean, I think very much if you’re a child of the eighties, that’s just what you were taught, right? Child of the seventies, child of the eighties. It’s like, you can’t do something right. Don’t do something at all. I know people who grew up in like evangelical circles. There was a lot of like, you’re supposed to do everything like you’re doing it for Jesus. Would you do it like that for Jesus? No. Or if you didn’t like that for Jesus, like really? 

  

Kathi Lipp (02:46) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

  

Right, yes. 

  

Tonya Kubo (03:09) 

What do you think? That’s disrespectful to Jesus. But at home, again, I grew up with a hoarder who had a very interesting perspective on how other people should live. So I remember having to clean the house, like I’d be home alone, I’m supposed to clean the whole house, cleaning the whole house, and then being told that nothing I did counted because I had one fork in the sink. 

  

Kathi Lipp (03:12) 

Yeah. 

  

Hmm. 

  

Mmm. Ugh. 

  

Tonya Kubo (03:38) 

Right? It’s like the one fork in the sink negated the seven hours I had spent as, you know, a 12 year old cleaning an entire house on my own. And it was just always like, and then I remember, you know, going through high school, like, why should I do anything? 

  

Kathi Lipp (03:53) 

Absolutely. 

  

Tonya Kubo (03:55) 

Like why do anything 

  

if my best will never be good enough? And I remember my cousin who I’m very close with and we grew up, she would say, okay, here’s the deal, Tonya. We’re just gonna put the wind fork in the sink and we’re just gonna leave it there. And we will know between the two of us that when she comes home, she’s gonna complain about the fork in the sink, but see, we put it there on purpose. But it never mattered to me. 

  

Kathi Lipp (04:14) 

Mmm. That’s. 

  

That’s so hard as a kid. It really is. So the thing I want to think about here is one, how do we not do that to people we are raising? We still want, I don’t know, you know, I’ve grown up my whole life thinking we want excellence, but excellence, you know, yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (04:21) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Well, this all goes back to like my mantra, 

  

which I’ve said here on the podcast several times, which is if I don’t have to do it, I do not judge how it gets done. Because you know what the thing is, like, you know, my mom grew up in a household where there was one way that you folded things and that was the right way and everything else was wrong. So my mom grew up in an environment where if you didn’t fold a towel where it was perfect right angles and it had to be folded in thirds, 

  

Kathi Lipp (04:47) 

It’s so true, right? 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (05:08) 

The laundry basket got dumped out and you had to refold the entire load, not just the towels that were folded incorrectly, the entire load over and over and over again until every single towel was folded perfectly. So can I blame her for how she raised me? No, I can’t. 

  

Kathi Lipp (05:16) 

Ugh. 

  

I just gonna say, 

  

we need to give a little bit of a break to our parents who hopefully did better than their parents and hopefully we are doing better than them and our kids will do better than us. May it be so. 

  

Tonya Kubo (05:29) 

Right. 

  

Exactly! 

  

Mm-hmm. And I remember, 

  

yes, and I remember one time was when Brian and I were married and I was folding towels and my mom was over and she starts like in on me, right? About like, well, if your grandmother was alive, I’m like, well, number one, she’s not. And number two, why would you, I would tell her the same thing I’m gonna tell you. Why do you care you’re not folding my towels? They’re not going in your cabinet. It doesn’t matter. But I have carried that through, which means that Lily lives out of laundry baskets. I hate it with every fiber of my being, but you know what? 

  

Kathi Lipp (05:48) 

Right? 

  

Right, it’s not… Yeah. Yeah. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (06:04) 

She’s not asking me to find her clothes in the morning to get ready. It doesn’t affect me. So I just move on. 

  

Kathi Lipp (06:07) 

Right. 

  

Yes, it’s so true. And you know, I’ve had to fold my towels two different ways in my adulthood because in one cabinet they fit one way and in another cabinet they fit a different way. And now I live in a space where it doesn’t matter. So anybody can fold the towels. It’s okay. If you want to come fold towels at my house, I will give you the address that Google will send you to here. Yeah. So. 

  

Tonya Kubo (06:22) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Yeah, exactly. You are happy to full-tell your way at my house, 

  

I’ll let you. 

  

Kathi Lipp (06:40) 

Exactly. 

  

So here’s something that’s so interesting though. Like what I finally had to figure out is if I wanted to live in a house that met my own very mediocre standards, I couldn’t wait till I had time so I could do everything at once. Nothing in my house will all be the right right quote unquote way at the same time. 

  

Tonya Kubo (06:54) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (07:10) 

Because even if I have people coming over, that probably means that my bedroom is the receiving end of some nonsense. I’m just gonna make do. And so some of the things I’ve learned and some of the things that have really helped me in getting the kind of house that I want are doing things in tiny sections. So. 

  

Tonya Kubo (07:19) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (07:35) 

Used to wait until I could wipe the whole counter down so I’d spray the whole counter and I’d wait five minutes and then I’d wipe it all down and How often do I have time for that? Not never but now I’ll just do hey I can do the counter above the sink. So I’m gonna squirt that down I’m gonna let wait for a couple of minutes and then I’m gonna wipe all that down and Does that mean it’s how I want it to be? No, but does that mean I am closer to how I want it to be? 

  

Tonya Kubo (07:51) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (08:03) 

And when I come to prepare lunch later on there’s going to be a clean place for me to be able to do it huzzah You know, i’ve talked about this plenty of times on the On the podcast that my oatmeal now cooks for two minutes and 33 seconds I don’t know why the time has changed it has changed that is plenty of time for me to get at least half the dishes unloaded And that makes me so happy and I know you you’ve 

  

Tonya Kubo (08:09) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (08:32) 

mentioned that you thought it took like 15 minutes 20 minutes to unload a dishwasher and When you heard me talking about oatmeal, you’re like, I can get that done in about four or five minutes. Yeah, you actually can Unless you have a much bigger dishwasher than I do but doing things in sections and by the way People will tell me all the time. Well, then how does the next person know whether those are clean or dirty? I’m like, well I tell them or they ask 

  

Tonya Kubo (08:43) 

Yup. 

  

Kathi Lipp (09:01) 

Like we have communication in our house, so it’s okay. And you know, he knows I am a serial half dishwasher emptier and it’s okay. That’s totally fine. But I have struck upon this, this idea for me, and this might be helpful to somebody else out there that I am working on my house two by two by one at a time. And what I mean by that is the space 

  

Tonya Kubo (09:02) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (09:30) 

is not going to be bigger than two feet by two feet and it’s not going to be deeper than one foot. And that’s a drawer or half of a drawer or half of the kitchen table or half of the living room table or half of a shelf in the garage. And because my brain tells me I’m going to wait until I have three hours on Saturday to clean out the garage. 

  

Tonya Kubo (09:36) 

Okay. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (09:59) 

There is no three hours in my entire life where I want to spend it cleaning out the garage. But 30 minutes at a time, 20 minutes at a time, most of the time it’s just 15 minutes at a time, these little things. Now, there are things that you should be excellent at. If you are giving your child medication, be the best medication giver you can be. Do everything you can to make sure that that goes well. 

  

Tonya Kubo (10:23) 

Yes. 

  

Kathi Lipp (10:27) 

When it comes to wiping down your counter, I’m okay if you get a D plus at that. And I’m okay if I get a D plus at that as well. And so, you know, I feel like one of the things that we have to do is retrain our brains against this all or nothing thinking. Tonya, we’re gonna take a little break and we’re gonna talk about an opportunity that’s coming up. And this is gonna be an opportunity for you to get a D plus in decluttering. 

  

Tonya Kubo (10:28) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (10:58) 

We’re going to practice getting rid of all or nothing thinking. We’re going to take a break and we’ll be right back. 

  

Okay, we are back and we are going to practice our eliminating our all or nothing thinking. And if you listened to the podcast last week, you heard us talking about the clutter free Bible study, what Jesus has to say about your stuff. And lots of times people want to do the Bible study, but they’re like, I don’t have the time. I, I, you know, I don’t want to show up less than for the Bible study. 

  

Tonya Kubo (11:33) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (11:34) 

I don’t know that I have time to do the homework. so Tonya you have three levels of Bible study participate, which I love by the way, because there I think I told you I did Beth Moore’s Breaking Free probably 

  

Tonya Kubo (11:41) 

I do? 

  

yes, you and half the nation. Including me. 

  

Kathi Lipp (11:54) 

Right, like I probably did it, yeah, 10 times. I still have 

  

the workbook because I’ve gone back and looked at it. But there were times where I was leading the study and there were times where I was just barely making it there in my pajama bottoms. And you know what the beautiful thing was? The pajama bottoms times, I had a leader who every time just said, I’m so happy to see your face. 

  

Tonya Kubo (12:06) 

you 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (12:23) 

You know, it wasn’t I could never do bsf. I know that people love bsf and they are transformed people but the the kind of study where if you don’t do your homework basically I I think the premise is you’re not allowed to talk unless you’ve done all your homework and You know, hey that works for a lot of people. That is not my jam 

  

Tonya Kubo (12:27) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (12:47) 

And so this is leaning more towards my benevolent leader in Beth Moore’s Breaking Free, how Tonya runs the Bible study. So can you tell us a little bit about the Bible study and your three ways that you can participate? 

  

Tonya Kubo (13:00) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

So the Clutter Free Bible study is It’s a series of videos. So you watch a video We have a downloadable workbook that you can print or you can fill it online. Whatever makes you happy So you watch a video you have your workbook reflection and then once a week we gather together in the Facebook group we do a Facebook live and We have our discussion so and that 

  

for some of you, you’re a Beth Moore study person, that’s easy peasy, right? And if you’re not a Beth Moore study person, that already feels like a lot. So the small, medium, and large tiers that I have come up with is the small version is you know what, this is important, and yet I do not have time for one more thing in my life. So what I will do is I will mark the calendar for the weekly live discussions and I will show up to those. 

  

Kathi Lipp (13:32) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (13:56) 

I’m 

  

just gonna show up, I’m gonna listen. you know, if Tonya asks a question that I feel like I can respond to, sure, I’ll answer that question, that’s fine. But I’m just gonna show up and I’m just gonna pay attention to the conversation. Medium is I own the study, so I either have bought it fresh or I bought it years ago and I’m pulling it out. I’m watching the e-course, so I’m watching the videos, I’m looking at the workbook, fill out the questions, don’t fill out the questions, totally up to you, right? But that is medium. 

  

I’m watching the videos, I’m at least reading through the workbook questions, and maybe even digging out my Bible app to look at what scripture says to make sure that what Kathi says the scripture says is actually what my Bible says the scripture says. That’s very important to some people, by the way. And then large is I’m gonna do all of that, right? So I’m gonna watch the videos, work on the workbook, I’m gonna participate in the live discussion, and I’m gonna pull out my… 

  

Kathi Lipp (14:27) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Hahaha 

  

Okay. 

  

Tonya Kubo (14:54) 

handy-dandy copy of Clutter Free and I’m gonna follow the reading plan, right? Because the Clutter Free book is a separate purchase from the Bible study, but some people love to go through the book in conjunction with the Bible study and that is going all out. That is whole donkey, as you like to describe it. That is going whole donkey and I think every year maybe about 

  

Kathi Lipp (15:12) 

Right. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (15:21) 

15 % of our study participants do the whole thing. A lot of people will start in one level and life happens as we get closer to Easter and they drop down a level. But by being able to pick whether you’re going small, medium, and large, it completely eliminates the pass or fail that most of us tend to put ourselves under. 

  

Kathi Lipp (15:29) 

Right. 

  

Yes. 

  

You know, I think about it, it’s kind of like exercise for me because I get down on myself so much for missing exercise. But, know, really, if I’m showing up once a week, that’s more than I was showing up. That was once a week more than I was showing up a year ago. And we’re looking for trajectory, not perfection. And yeah, we want. And so if you pick up a couple of things during this Bible study, 

  

Tonya Kubo (16:02) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Exactly. 

  

Kathi Lipp (16:13) 

That could change your life. It absolutely could. Okay, tell us a little bit about the weekly schedule just so people know what they’re getting into. 

  

Tonya Kubo (16:14) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Yeah, 

  

so we’re gonna kick off February 28th. And that’s where I just, I’ll explain the small medium and large plan. I will answer any questions, but I’ll kind of talk about how we approach it, how it’s very easy and gentle. And that’s also where I explain to people, because a lot of people will enter into the Bible study assuming that their house is gonna be spick and span spotless by the end of it. I explained that the Bible study is not the kind of, 

  

decluttering process where you’re gonna see it play out in your house. It’s really about decluttering your heart and your emotions around stuff. Then we, it’s a six week discussion. So that goes from March 7th to April 11th. So you watch the videos, you do the workbook, then we come together and discuss like I mentioned. And then on Good Friday, which is April 18th, we will get together for a celebration. 

  

in advance of Easter and then on April 20th you get to have Easter with your family but you’re all done with the Bible study before Easter begins which I think is really important because we believe in holidays and rest over here in Clutter Free Academy and even when we lead a Bible study we want to build in periods of rest. 

  

Kathi Lipp (17:24) 

Guess. 

  

Yes. 

  

Absolutely. We love some good rest around here because we talked about guilt in our last podcast and the guilt keeps us from resting and until we have no choice but to rest. And that’s not how I want you to earn your rest friends. It’s really not. Okay. So what are people going to learn in this Bible study? 

  

Tonya Kubo (17:46) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

No. 

  

Yeah, so like I said, it’s not the kind of Bible study where you’re gonna clear out spaces in your home, but it digs deep into the heart of why you keep things, what the Bible says it means to be a good steward. Because again, so often in Clutter Free Academy, we assume being a good steward means we keep everything we’ve ever bought that could potentially be useful to somebody somewhere, even if not this century. And then we also kind of, 

  

Kathi Lipp (18:23) 

Right. 

  

Tonya Kubo (18:27) 

address the perspective of building new habits. Like one exercise that is a favorite that is part of the Bible study is going to a store like Target or Walmart, whatever you have in your area, and going into the store, walking around the store, and walking out without buying a single thing. Not because it makes you holier than anybody else to do that, but to prove to yourself that walking into a store does not obligate you to buy stuff. 

  

Kathi Lipp (18:54) 

Yes, it’s so true, right? 

  

Tonya Kubo (18:57) 

And 

  

people really believe that they can’t do it. And then they’re so proud of themselves when they can. you know, every year, people have some amazing experiences and their perspective shifts in incredible ways. And we have people who’ve been doing this every year with us since 2016. Grace Church, who’s been on the podcast before, she is the community manager over in our paid membership program, Clutter Free for Life. She joined. 

  

Kathi Lipp (19:00) 

Yeah. 

  

Mmm. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Tonya Kubo (19:25) 

1. Like that’s how I first met her was when she did the initial Bible study and it was about three years in. So her third or fourth round with the Bible study where her big aha was that clutter was a boundary issue and that she had come so far in her life in asserting and maintaining strong healthy boundaries with people but she had no boundaries when it came to stuff.

  

Kathi Lipp (19:39) 

Mmm. 

  

Interesting. 

  

Tonya Kubo (19:53) 

And so, and she wrote this beautiful thing, which I need to pull out of the archives because we have it still, about how once she was able to make that association, the clutter shows that I don’t have boundaries around stuff. She was able to draw a really strong boundary about what could come into the house. And by having a strong boundary of what it was allowed in, that automatically reduced the amount of time and energy she had to spend in decluttering. 

  

Because if she could stop it at the front door, she never had to worry about when to get rid of it. 

  

Kathi Lipp (20:27) 

Yeah. it’s so interesting. Isn’t it interesting the folklore we have built up around our stuff and about keeping stuff. And I’m going to hurt Amazon’s feelings if I return this item. And, you know, it’s just all these things. It was very interesting to me, you know, because I’m I’m an over-politer and I don’t want to bother the person who’s waiting on us on the table and stuff like that. 

  

Tonya Kubo (20:34) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (20:55) 

And I just saw a TikTok recently where somebody said, you’ve got a normal request and you ask politely, you are doing better than 98 % of the people who come in. And it’s like, so me asking for more ranch or whatever it is, right? You’re not going to go back into the back kitchen and say, can you believe this woman? Can you? 

  

Tonya Kubo (21:05) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Yup. 

  

Right. 

  

Right? 

  

Kathi Lipp (21:23) 

And me returning things to an online retailer, that’s part of doing business. I am not offending somebody by doing that. But there is such folklore. If I go into a store, I need to buy something. Or if I use the bathroom, I need to buy something. You know what? I think I’ve paid for my bathroom trip about 1,000 times over. I think we’re good. 

  

Tonya Kubo (21:30) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. Yep. 

  

Right. 

  

Kathi Lipp (21:50) 

I’m you know, you said you’re not going to get rid of clutter, but we can see some of our members creating new habits. And so so tell me a little bit about that. What have you seen in the past in the Bible study? 

  

Tonya Kubo (22:00) 

yeah! 

  

Yeah, so new habits. So a lot of the habits that our members have created, so like, you know, using Grace as an example is stopping clutter at the front door, whatever that looks like. So that could be, you know, at work, somebody says, hey, do you want to take this? No, I’m good. Right? Because if I don’t take it here, right, because once it goes into my car, now it’s my job to figure out what to do with it. 

  

Kathi Lipp (22:17) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mmm, right. 

  

Yeah, 

  

it’s so true. 

  

Tonya Kubo (22:29) 

You know, 

  

for me, it was during the first Bible study that I started going through my mail over the recycling bin rather than bringing it into the house. So the only stuff that comes into the house is stuff I actually need or have to take action on. But a lot of folks have experienced complete shifts in their habits around shopping. So for some people, they broke the habit and Lent is such a great time for breaking habits that don’t actually benefit you. 

  

Kathi Lipp (22:37) 

Yeah. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (22:57) 

They broke their habit of automatically stopping at the grocery store or stopping at any store after work or shopping out of boredom. A lot of people recognize that they go, that Target, Walmart, those kind of super stores are an emotional coping mechanism. It’s where they go when they’re lonely. It’s where they go when they’re bored and they just kind of walk around the store and they tell themselves, well, it’s just free, right? Like it would cost me money to go to the movies. It would cost me money to take a friend out to lunch. 

  

Kathi Lipp (23:24) 

Hmm. 

  

Tonya Kubo (23:26) 

I go to Target and it’s free, but then they wouldn’t think about all the things that they would buy as part of their Target habit. We talk a lot about the dollar spot, right? Or the bargain bins at stores. well, it’s totally fine that I go to Target every single week. I know I’m picking on Target, but that’s just because that’s what we have where I live. But it’s fine that I go there because I only get stuff that’s at the dollar spot. Right, but five things from the dollar spot. 

  

Kathi Lipp (23:31) 

Right. 

  

Yeah. 

  

Right. 

  

Tonya Kubo (23:53) 

only cost you five dollars, but it takes up the space of five things. And it’s five things that at some point you’re going to have to get rid of. And did you need it to begin with? 

  

Kathi Lipp (24:03) 

And Tonya, the other thing I’m gonna say is stores are not dumb. They know that your house feels chaotic and their house feels bright and organized and it makes sense. And those mannequins give you ideas of how you could use those things. Those displays give you… 

  

Tonya Kubo (24:10) 

Mm-mm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (24:31) 

And 

  

if I just had this thing, then my life, I know nobody is saying this to themselves, but your amygdala is saying this to yourself. If only I had those plates, then the rest of my kitchen would come together. If only I had that mail organizer, I would never have clutter again. And so the displays, the advertisements are promising a life that feels like an escape from your house. 

  

Tonya Kubo (24:46) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Kathi Lipp (25:01) 

And what we want your house to be is to be that sanctuary that doesn’t mean you feel like you have to leave it all the time to get that peace. That’s what we want for you. Okay, guys, we are going to have all the information on how to join the Bible study in the show notes, all the links. Mark your calendars for February 28th for the kickoff. 

  

Tonya Kubo (25:09) 

Exactly. 

  

Kathi Lipp (25:27) 

You can invite some friends if you know that they also struggle with some of these things. It is so much more fun to do it together. If you don’t have a friend that you can invite, then you’re gonna make friends. That’s what we want you to do. We’re gonna make friends who understand your cluttering language. Tonya, this has been great. Thanks so much for being with us today and for leading this. I know how passionate you are about. 

  

Tonya Kubo (25:50) 

Yes, and I hope that everybody listening will join us because it really is a good time. It really is. 

  

Kathi Lipp (25:55) 

Yeah, it really is. And friends, you have been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live. 

 

 

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps every day to live with less clutter But more life and I am back here with the reigning queen of all things clutter. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey Tonya You know what we are diving into a season in Clutter Free Academy that really is all about Tonya and her people

Tonya Kubo (00:25)
Hey, Kathi

haha

Kathi Lipp (00:37)
And it’s it because we are coming up on link now. I’m doing some linty things Which sounds like I need to get one of those picker uppers to get stuff off my clothes. You’re right exactly Because I’m gonna be talking a lot about soup around lent because soup and lent go together really really really well Especially with the weather we’re having here in California today is is it crazy where you are to yes?

Tonya Kubo (00:43)
You are?

I was gonna say you need a roller. We need a roller.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

…Currential

Downpour.

Kathi Lipp (01:05)
Okay, totally off topic. Can I tell you how excited Roger is because we bought these giant backup batteries that for when you know, the power goes out, he wanted his computer and my computer to keep going. Sadly, the weather has been beautiful here. We have barely had a dusting of snow.

Tonya Kubo (01:14)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

And Roger did not get to play with his new toys.

Kathi Lipp (01:30)
Exactly until yesterday and then yesterday we still had beautiful weather But they had to turn our power off in order to do you know things and we got to use all of our giant batteries and Roger Lipp has never been happier, but this has nothing to do with what we’re talking about We are talking about as we go into lint I think you and I you know, we’re both looking at

Tonya Kubo (01:33)
Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:00)
We just cut off of a conversation where there’s a lot going on in Tonya’s life like right now like Tonya I hate to say this this has been like the most chill week I’ve had and it feels like five years

Tonya Kubo (02:11)
Yay! I was gonna

say because you haven’t had a chill week in five years, Kathi you deserve a chill week.

Kathi Lipp (02:19)
I am absorbing it and I’m doing some deep thinking and things like that. And on the opposite end of the spectrum is Tonya’s life. And it’s interesting, I’m gonna ask you a question that we did not prepare for. With everything going on in your life, there’s been some relationship stuff, emotional stuff, work stuff, kid stuff.

Tonya Kubo (02:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:44)
If you were still where you were 10 years ago with clutter, how would this week have looked different for you? Because I know it’s been a very stressful week, but I also know you’ve made great progress in your life.

Tonya Kubo (02:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so the thing is, is when in my life, right, when I was early in my clutter journey, because I think like we have a lot of listeners who are like eons beyond where I started off with, right? Like they are just so much, their starting point is so much higher than where my starting point was. But I wouldn’t have been able to function. I mean, I think I would have had to take like a week off of work.

Kathi Lipp (03:14)
All right.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (03:26)
I’d probably have a really hard time. I definitely would have a hard time eating. That’s always one of the things is when I am overwhelmed and life is difficult, I really struggle to feed myself. I feed the people around me, but I don’t do well feeding myself. And then I just fall into like very base level survival habits. So I wouldn’t have slept. You know, my old life, I would frequently be up 18 to 20 hours a day.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
you

Yeah.

my goodness. I can’t even imagine.

Tonya Kubo (03:56)
Because

I just didn’t feel like I had the luxury of sleep. And so…

Kathi Lipp (03:59)
And it

can I also point something else out that I I just want to say, you know, this is again, rough couple of weeks, lots of things going on. And not only clutter wise, are you so much further behind? And, know, if somebody says that, oh, I lost $50,000 in the stock market, that’s a lot of money. But depending on where you started from, that could be life changing.

Tonya Kubo (04:03)
Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:28)
Or

I have to put off retirement for another three months. know, like for different people, yeah. So that you didn’t have to start with such a deficit because of this, but you have also done some big stuff for your health over the past couple of years that, you know, where, you know, 10 years ago, your health also would have taken. I’m just saying you have done so much progress in so many ways.

Tonya Kubo (04:32)
Right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (04:58)
That while this has been an incredibly hard couple of weeks You have done it with you know, you’ve kept your nose above water

Tonya Kubo (05:06)
Right, well, it’s been very easy to figure out what to do and not do, right? So it’s one of those things where, you know, it’s like the, we’re kind of at the beginning of the month and we do a lot of our grocery shopping at the beginning of the month. But like my shelves weren’t bare. It was no hardship to put off grocery shopping for a week. You know, some people had offered to bring us meals and I just said yes. And it was very easy to say yes to that because I didn’t have food rotting in the fridge.

Kathi Lipp (05:10)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Good for you.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (05:35)
because we

have a great system for eating all the food that we cook. So it was like, yeah, actually, my leftovers will be tapped out on Wednesday. So if you want to bring dinner over for us on Wednesday, that will be awesome. And then somebody else was like, well, can I just send you Uber Eats gift card? You are welcome to send us that. That would be great. I have a great use for that. So I could, when people offered help, I knew exactly what kind of help I needed. But the main thing, Kathi, is I was in bed by eight o’clock every single night.

Kathi Lipp (05:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (06:04)
Now the one hard thing for me, right, is because again, when I get stressed out, like my body just does different things. I have not been able to get out of bed before 5 a.m., which you me, I’m a 4 a.m. person.

Kathi Lipp (06:15)
I’m sorry. Yeah, for the rest of the world, yes, but for Tonya, I know that’s sleeping in.

Tonya Kubo (06:21)
But being able to sleep for that kind of stretch would not have been possible before.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Yeah, and you know what I’m going to attribute a lot of this to not everything but a lot of it too is that you really are our champion when it comes to the hidden cost of clutter You’re the one who’s constantly pointing out No, it’s not just that you have to move stuff over if you want to sit down on your couch You you are the one who keeps bringing up in conversation the emotional drain

Tonya Kubo (06:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:55)
the spiritual drain. And so that’s what I want to talk to you about today is, is it possible, all these places where we just, we are feeling so incredibly tapped out, is it possible to make changes like that in your life? And I, you know, I’m just going to say yes, because I’ve seen it in your life. I’ve seen it in my own life.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:22)
I’ve seen it in the lives of some of, you know, many of our members where, and I think we sometimes forget to do that because we see how much further we have to go. I’m doing this with my clutter right now. Like, can you believe how out of control my t-shirt drawer is? Like, why am I even teaching anything in Clutter Free? Because if you saw my t-shirt drawer, you’d be like, she has nothing to say. And, but before,

Tonya Kubo (07:33)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
I was paying late charges on every bill we had. I couldn’t find, I remember the day I couldn’t find my toothbrush. Like Tonya, what happened to my toothbrush? Like where was I taking my toothbrush?

Tonya Kubo (07:55)
Right.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (08:09)
And if you came to my house right now, would I like five minutes heads up? Yeah. Do I need it? I don’t. so I, yes, that change is possible. I want to know for you, where have you seen the biggest difference in emotions from the time? And both of us are coming from guys, our houses are not perfect. And Tonya would be the first to say, cause she’s been to my house. You know, she is

Tonya Kubo (08:16)
Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:38)
Let’s just say she has a lot of life going on at her house. know, Roger and I, we could say, I could say I’m not cooking today, and it would just be fine. That would not go over so well at your house. You know, people…

Tonya Kubo (08:47)
Mm-hmm.

No. Well Abby would

love that because then Abby would be like, well, can we go to Olive Garden? answer is no, child. No, cannot. No.

Kathi Lipp (08:55)
Hahaha!

Abby and Roger are just two people separated by 50 years. That’s all there is to it.

I just want to know what, where have you seen the biggest emotional difference for you?

Tonya Kubo (09:13)
So this is, hard to articulate, but I’ll try and then you’ll make it sound like it makes sense. Before, there was always a level of chaos. So if you picture like, okay, my brain is cluttered and there’s a scale of one to 10. On a good day, my brain was already at level seven. So there was never much more space for things, right?

Kathi Lipp (09:40)
Right.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (09:41)
So

like prioritizing the simplest, I just couldn’t do it. By the end of the workday, I’d already made so many decisions. I couldn’t tell you what to have for dinner unless I’d planned that four days ago. Now, I would say my average level of like capacity of my brain taken up is like two. So like a lot of life can actually get thrown at me before I’m at that level of paralyzed that I was every single day.

Kathi Lipp (09:44)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yes.

Mmm.

That’s such a gift. is. When you’re not having to spend, you know, your levels on finding the car keys, figuring out where that permission slip is that your kid brought home three days ago. When you are not having to, you know, when dishes are not a crisis. Because I remember thinking dishes are a crisis, not this is just a part of what we do every day. I know.

Tonya Kubo (10:13)
It really is.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (10:40)
I know that sounds dramatic, but it was amazing how long I could let the dishes go before I actually did something about them and how bad I felt about that.

Tonya Kubo (10:51)
Right. Well, so here’s the other thing, right? Is when you’re like underwater, literally underwater because life is that unmanageable because I’m sorry, but I know very few people who just have a cluttered home, right? Usually it’s a cluttered home, it’s a cluttered head, it’s a cluttered heart, it’s a cluttered schedule. And all of those things contribute to the cluttered home. So when you’re not…

Kathi Lipp (11:07)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (11:20)
that far underwater and life throws you a curve ball, it’s very easy to shift things around. You know, like you’re talking about dishes. So in our house, certain people have designated chores. It was a simple conversation of, with everything going on, Lily, I need you to be in charge of washing the dishes every day this week. Abby, I know that you’re used to three reminders to empty the dishwasher. I really need us to have a day where

Kathi Lipp (11:28)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:50)
I tell you something once and it gets done. Can you do that for me? Right? And I mean, she’s 10. Does she want to do it? No. She’s like, yeah, mommy, okay, I can do that. I see everything is going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs around here. No problem. I got that. But 10 years ago, well, let’s see, Clutter, yeah, 10, it’s been 10 years since Clutter Free came out. 10 years ago, I couldn’t have even been able to tell you what to show.

Kathi Lipp (11:52)
Mm-hmm.

Of course not.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It’s been 10 years.

Okay.

Tonya Kubo (12:18)
You would

have come to me and you would have said, Tonya, what’s not getting done this week because of all this stuff going on? I’d be like, I don’t know.

Kathi Lipp (12:24)
Yeah. And I think you made a really good point a bit ago when you are so underwater and somebody wants to throw you a rope and you’re like, I don’t even have a hand to catch that with. Like I can’t tell you how to help me. And I love that you were so specific in asking for help. We’re going to take a quick break. We’re going to come right back and I want to talk about a little bit more of the impact and then an opportunity for

Tonya Kubo (12:36)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:51)
everybody who’s listening, because I think we have some really cool stuff up coming up that I think will help you if you’re relating at all to this conversation. Okay, we’ll take a quick break and come right back.

Okay, I am back with Tonya, we’re just talking about what is the hidden cost of clutter. And you know, one of the things that we talk a lot about in the group is spiritual disconnection. And people, you know, I’ll never forget. I can quote you almost every bad review I’ve ever had on the book. By the way, I just got a one-star review on Sabbath Soup.

And she didn’t like that I said, you know, there are different days you can have your Sabbath. And her username is picky mommy. And I’m like, okay, if you see that, yeah, if she calls herself that it’s okay. But one of the bad reviews I got on Clutter Free back when it came out was that clutter isn’t a fight between good and evil. Clutter is not from the devil. Okay, fine. You know what?

Whatever you want to say, but here’s what I know. My clutter, so much of it has been rooted in fear, guilt, and shame. And those are things that leave me spiritually disconnected. Especially, I would say, especially shame. Shame is a big thing for me. I want to know from you in these past 10 years, was shame a part of your decluttering journey?

Tonya Kubo (14:03)
That’s fine.

Kathi Lipp (14:31)
Was it fear? Was it guilt? Or was that not really it? What would you say was your disconnect?

Tonya Kubo (14:39)
Well, for me, it was all three to different degrees. mean, definitely fear drove my Claire in a big way. The shame piece was… So I probably had less guilt than I had shame. I probably had more shame. For me, the shame was I really thought everybody else got this and I didn’t. Right. So I was ashamed of the fact that there was like some missing piece that I couldn’t figure out. And

Kathi Lipp (14:46)
Okay, yeah.

right.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:09)
You know, because of course so many people think clutter is a housekeeping issue. We know it’s not, you know, so it’s like, you know, a shame that I couldn’t keep a house. Well, then once I understood the emotional drivers of clutter, then it’s like, well, no, it’s like, I didn’t understand how to manage the ebb and flow of stuff. I was overwhelmed. I had an unrealistic attachment to items. I really had deep, deep fear of scarcity.

Kathi Lipp (15:14)
It’s not.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:36)
You know, I still struggle with that. I talked to a lot of our members about that, right? Like, I feel like that will always be my albatross, like until the day I die. I will always default to this fear. But the shame piece has been gone for years. I think actually shame left first. I think guilt hung on a little bit longer, but shame left first simply because it’s like, you know what? Why is irrelevant? It just is. And this is who I am.

Kathi Lipp (15:37)
Yeah. Right.

Yes. Yeah.

Mmm, that’s so exciting.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (16:05)
and

I’m just, I’m working to get better each day.

Kathi Lipp (16:09)
Do you think the fear, I know for me, it came from parental underemployment? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (16:15)
It’s poverty. Yeah, my fear

is 100 % poverty driven.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Yeah. And it’s a killer. part of our psyche now. It’s part of our DNA. so, you know, when you see people gathering too much or doing too much, just realize, you know, that’s probably based in real fear for them. And it’s good to have an understanding while still, you know, in ourselves trying to work on it. You know, I think about all of this, the fear, guilt and shame. It has an impact on our relationships.

Tonya Kubo (16:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
financially, I think about this that I tend to buy things, you know, my my impulse is to buy things to have a backup of a backup of a backup because of some of that childhood stuff that is still going on. And I love that you have taken up the mantle in our group for not just Clutter Free, but for Clutter Free.

Tonya Kubo (17:01)
Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (17:18)
We have a Bible study and the subtitle is, it’s Clutter Free Bible study, what Jesus has to say about your stuff. And because we know the number one topic in the New Testament isn’t anything that we are currently fighting about in the United States. It is money and stuff. Jesus knew that this was, you know, talk about an albatross around your neck. Jesus knew that this was going to be our biggest hang up.

Tonya Kubo (17:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:47)
in everything that we do. And so every year you lead a Bible study that I wrote 10 years ago. But it is, I would say, in many ways, it’s more relevant today in 2025 than it was in 2015. And can you tell me a little bit about why you’re so passionate about this Bible study for people who struggle with clutter?

Tonya Kubo (18:05)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, well, I mean, I’m passionate about it because this is how our Facebook group got started. I like, I’m just a little bit nostalgic about that. We got started as a Bible study. But see the thing with the Bible study, again, we have a tendency to think symptoms are the problem, right? And very rarely are symptoms and the problem the same. So where symptoms of a problem emerge oftentimes is very far from where the problem actually is rooted.

Kathi Lipp (18:16)
Guess. Mm-hmm. Guess.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (18:42)
And

clutter, this physical clutter, the stuff in our home is actually a symptom. The real problem, as you’ve pointed out, is fear, guilt, and shame. But the real problem, I think, especially for believers, is there’s this contradiction, right? We’re supposed to have this neat and tidy house, but then we have internalized this message that we’re supposed to keep every single thing we’ve bought because that’s the only way we can prove we’re a good steward of the money that we’ve been given.

Kathi Lipp (19:09)
Right.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (19:10)
And there’s

this battle that our cluttery people fight all the time between I want a tidy house. I have too much stuff in this house. I need less stuff, but I don’t want to be wasteful. And so what I love about the Bible study is it breaks it down scripture by scripture at what Jesus really says about stuff and

Kathi Lipp (19:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (19:34)
I think for most of us, because it’s a very internal process for the Bible city, this is not the sort of thing you can take before and after pictures of. This is you, your walk with clutter, you, your walk with Christ. But people kind of go internally and then they recognize, the stuff. For some people, they view the stuff as an idol. They recognize like, I’ve been idolizing these things. I think, I’m so safe and so secure because I’ve got

Kathi Lipp (19:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (20:03)
15 bags of flour in my pantry, but really the flour is an idol, right? I’m telling myself that I am better than the average person because I have 15 sacks of flour in my pantry. And if I stop and think about it, I don’t bake. So those 15 sacks of flour are actually the biggest waste. I’m better off giving it to a food bank. I’m better off giving it to somebody else. And so I just feel like

Kathi Lipp (20:08)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (20:32)
It drives home how, well, clutter can be a unifying problem, how individual the root cause of each of our clutter issue is.

Kathi Lipp (20:45)
And this Bible study helps people get to the root of it. And the Bible study doesn’t clean your house, but it starts to affect your thinking when you start to have those aha moments and start to see that, this is why I’m doing this. Or here’s the truth behind why I don’t need to do this anymore.

Tonya Kubo (20:49)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right?

Kathi Lipp (21:12)
And it’s amazing what God can reveal in those times. Tonya, can you give us some details about the study of people are like, you know what, a Linton study is just what I need. And I don’t necessarily want to do the one at church because this one affects my life. I need this in my life.

Tonya Kubo (21:35)
Right, well, and the other thing is because we do it online, you don’t have to worry about walking into a building like with a big scarlet letter across your chest that says, hey, I have Claudia at my house. But the Bible says so Lent, know, Ash Wednesday is March 7th and Easter, I think if I’m not wrong, is like April 20th. So how we do the studies to the actual like core curriculum of the study is from March 7th to April 11th.

Kathi Lipp (21:45)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:04)
But I love to have a good kickoff call where I kind of lay out, I always have a small, medium and large plan for the study because I understand this time of year is very busy for some people and for other people it isn’t. And so you get to decide how deep you want to go. So on the kickoff call, we talk about, you know, sort of what your choices are with that. And then we’ll do a celebration to just kind of mark what we’ve done, the realizations that we’ve come to on April 18th.

Kathi Lipp (22:11)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:32)
and then you have completed it before Easter starts and you can celebrate Easter with your family and the miracle that comes with that. The Bible study, if you don’t already own it, because if you own it, you own it for life. And so I would just say email us if you don’t know whether you own it and we’ll let you know because we can look that up. But it’s just twenty five dollars. It’s it’s a series of videos and then there’s a printable workbook that comes with it. So you’ve got the online videos, the workbook.

Kathi Lipp (22:44)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Tonya Kubo (22:59)
We have group discussions in our Clutterfree Academy Facebook group. If Facebook isn’t your thing, that’s totally fine. You can do the videos and the workbook and you can email us some of your reflections. I always love to answer people’s emails, so that doesn’t bother me one bit. The group discussions though are really fun because everybody gets something different out of the study every single year.

Kathi Lipp (23:14)
Yeah.

And we all learn from each other. That’s really cool. And then when somebody is talking about why they do the things they do, somebody else has an aha moment. It’s just, it’s really special. It’s really special in there. Okay, so if they want to join, what do they do?

Tonya Kubo (23:33)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so if you need to buy the study because you don’t already own it, it’s kathy.link slash study. We’ll put that in the show notes too, but it’s Kathi. Just make sure it’s Kathi with an I, not with a Y. Dot link slash study. And then our Facebook group is easy to find on Facebook. You can search Cholera Free Academy or just go to kathy.link slash CFA. And that’ll take you directly to the Facebook group where you can join. If you already own the study, you don’t have to make any other purchases.

Kathi Lipp (23:52)
Mm-hmm, for sure.

Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (24:15)
The, you can, some people do like to read the book Clutter Free alongside the study. I always say that that’s like for the A plus plus people. Cause you’re committing to reading a book plus doing the video series and the discussions for six weeks. That’s a lot. But I know some people love that. They want to really go in deep, but most folks will just watch the videos and participate in the discussions and we have a great time.

Kathi Lipp (24:28)
Yes. Yes.

I love it guys. We all again all of this is in the show notes. We’ll also be talking about it in Kathi lips Clutter Free Academy on Facebook but that if you are looking for something a linten study and you would like something that is hits you exactly where you’re at if you’re listening to this podcast This is the study for you and it’s nice that it can be done from home Sometimes when it’s really busy. This is a good thing to be able to do

Tonya Kubo (25:07)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:08)
Tonya,

thank you so much for all this great insight. Come back next week. We are going to be talking about some of the practical transformation that can come from this Bible study. You’re gonna love it. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lip. Now, go live the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.