#668 &#8211; Let&#8217;s Get Under the Sink

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:08)
Well, hey friend, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps every day to live with less clutter and more life. I’m Kathi Lipp. Today I am here with Tonya Kubo. Hey Tonya. And we are tackling another project. I think this may rank as one of my least favorite areas to declutter and clean. It is

Tonya Kubo (00:22)
Hey, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (00:38)
Under the kitchen sink. How do you feel about under? I anything where I have to squat down Is going to go pretty low on the list

Tonya Kubo (00:47)
Yeah,

and my house is old, so underneath the sink smells funny. Not gonna lie. Just smells weird. I just don’t want to go down there.

Kathi Lipp (00:52)
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, you know, several years ago, we we noticed that the outside of our house had a big spot on it. And we’re like, what is that? And it we had a leak under our sink we didn’t know about, and ended up replacing part of our house, you know, the side on the house having to

Tonya Kubo (01:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:19)
cut that all out, repaint it. Fortunately, we hired somebody who knew what they were doing because that’s not mine and Roger’s giftedness. But it’s important that you’re down there pretty regularly and inspecting things because…

Tonya Kubo (01:34)
for that

exact reason, which is also why I avoid it.

Kathi Lipp (01:38)
Yeah, I

know, right? There’s a show that Roger and I love, it’s called Mom, and somebody was at Bonnie’s house and they moved the bookcase and she says, you have mold, you you have a wet spot. And she goes, I know, and I paint it and it goes away for six months. And it’s like…

Why do you think we have the desk where we have it? It’s not because we want it there. Yeah, but you know, this stuff can be serious and it’s also annoying. Tonya, let’s talk under the sink.

Tonya Kubo (02:15)
All right, so it’s a catch-all, which you’ve established. We avoid it, which we’ve also established. So how do we get started if we want to doom clean under the sink?

Kathi Lipp (02:19)
Yeah, yes.

Hahaha

Yeah, so first of all, we have to declutter and it was so interesting just the other day. We had our windshield replaced on our car because Giant Boulder came at my face. I was like, it was was not fun, but we got it. And the people who replaced it, they had a big old can. They gave us a big old can of auto window cleaner. And I said, as I was.

Tonya Kubo (02:40)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:57)
Like, where do we put this? And I said, Roger, where would you first think to look when you needed auto window cleaner? And he said, under the sink. I’m like.

Tonya Kubo (03:06)
Hahaha!

Kathi Lipp (03:09)
Really?

Tonya Kubo (03:10)
But it’s true because you’re like, I mean, this was in my house two weeks ago. Lily was looking for something random and it’s like, it’s so random. Where would you put that? I bet I would put that under the sink. And she went and it was there.

Kathi Lipp (03:23)
Really?

My good. Okay. Well see I cannot argue when I say I’m going to ask you the question Where would you first look for this and I was thinking our auto supplies. nene It’s under the sink. Okay, apparently Roger has been affirmed in this so Yeah, we’re gonna pull everything out. We’re gonna empty that cabinet and You just need to see everything sponges have to empty cleaners

And there’s nothing wrong with a half empty cleaner, but if you have the half empty cleaner plus the full cleaner plus another half empty cleaner, et cetera, et cetera, you’re gonna have stuff down there you forgot and you have. So we’re gonna, yes please.

Tonya Kubo (04:08)
Yes. Do you want to hear my story? Six.

So I keep the white vinegar underneath the sink too in a big jug because old house stinky disposal. Right. So we had been buying a hand wash like dish, Dawn dish soap. I pulled out the vinegar. I had six dish soaps behind it, but they’re short. They’re short. The vinegar was tall.

Kathi Lipp (04:14)
Okay, uh-huh. Right, yeah.

Yeah.

I’m not gonna fault you. Yes, I know. And

right, I totally get that. Apparently I was deathly afraid that the world was gonna run out of Dawn Powerwash.

Tonya Kubo (04:45)
I’m definitely afraid of that. That has changed our life since we discovered it at your house.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Right? It’s so great. And so it feels like every time I went to Costco, I bought the three pack. We’re good. We are so good. Yeah, as one does. Okay.

Tonya Kubo (05:00)
as one does. All right.

So you pull everything out so that you can be like me and discover that you actually have six dishwashing detergent things.

Kathi Lipp (05:08)
Yeah,

so you’re gonna either put that all on your counter on the kitchen table whatever makes sense to you Yeah, you’re gonna keep the products you actually use I don’t care if it’s full full You know a quarter full if you use it and if you can combine things now be very careful with combining things You’re not gonna come buying Bleach and other things right? We’re not gonna be that’s I couldn’t think of the word. Yes We’re not gonna do that because we want everybody to stay alive

Tonya Kubo (05:31)
No bleach and ammonia. Please do not do that.

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (05:38)
So you’re only going to combine like with like. Donate or give away. If you have, you know, maybe 20 Dawn Power washes, maybe it’s time to donate a few of those to your local food pantry. But, you know, don’t, we’re never donating junk guys. And then we’re going to toss things like expired chemicals, moldy sponges, broken tools. Now, when I say we’re going to toss expired chemicals, you’re going to check

Tonya Kubo (05:56)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:08)
with your local municipality about how you get rid of chemicals. You know what, can I just say there have been hostage negotiations that take less back and forth than us getting rid of chemicals in the greater Sacramento area. But you know what, we’re gonna do it right. and you know, dried paint, things like that. We’re just, we’re gonna do all the right things. You’re going to…

Tonya Kubo (06:24)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:35)
Check for duplicates and safety. So first you’re gonna pull everything out. Second, you’re gonna sort items. Check for duplicates and safety. So if you have three bottles, same cleaner, like we said, combine or let some go. There are some chemicals that can be hazardous, so we’re going to dispose of those properly. But also make sure, check expiration dates. If something is a chemical and it’s out of date,

It’s probably time to dispose of it properly. And then four, you’re gonna decide how many backups can I, six may be too much of maybe. how many backup cleaners do you realistically need? The more backups you hold, the more clutter you risk. So keep a small stash, not an entire store’s worth. So what I’ve done is I have put those Dawn containers

Tonya Kubo (07:11)
Maybe.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:32)
into we have a very high shelf in our garage, but I checked that before I go to Costco and I don’t think I’ve bought any Dawn Power Wash in the last year. So this is a victory. So you have to be able to see it friends.

Tonya Kubo (07:48)
I think that’s the big lesson through this whole series too, right? Is what you can’t see tends to pile up, right? No matter what your daily habits are. And you know, like before the dishwasher soap incident, I would have said that making me pull everything out of underneath my sink would have made me super nervous because honestly, I’m just afraid every time I pull stuff out that I’m gonna find a leak of some sort. That’s really my fear.

Kathi Lipp (07:55)
Great.

Yes, I get

it. Right.

Tonya Kubo (08:16)
is that I’m gonna go

push something through and my hand’s gonna go through the floor. I’ve seen that movie. That doesn’t work out, right? But to your point, it’s the only way to see what’s down there. It’s the only way to figure out if it makes sense. And it’s the only way to really get it clean, which brings me to the next segment of this particular episode.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah,

but Tonya, I’m also going to talk about the fear of the drip here for a second. We want a drip, not a demo. OK? I want you to catch the drip before we have to go to power tools, which is what Roger and I had to do. So I’m speaking out. I’m laying myself bare for this experience. So yes, let’s talk about cleaning.

Tonya Kubo (08:51)
Right.

Kathi Lipp (09:08)
Let’s get started with this is that you’re you’re gonna pull everything out and this is the time to disinfect Okay, so that’s before you do anything else and I know we’re gonna be talking a lot about how to clean all this but use I want you to use something that has a disinfecting spray because like you said water mold crusty residue soap

Tonya Kubo (09:23)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:37)
Leaked liquids. I I want you to wipe down and disavow. know this is such an exciting thing, right? I mean I see your face

Tonya Kubo (09:44)
Super exciting.

Yeah, I’m making my poo face as my kids call it. But the wiping down and disinfecting is really important and it is an important first step. I would love for us to tackle the rest of the steps after our commercial break. So we are gonna just take a quick break, pay a few bills, and then we’re gonna come back and talk more about what cleaning looks like underneath the sink.

Kathi Lipp (09:49)
Okay.

Tonya Kubo (10:14)
Welcome back, Kathi you have helped us declutter. You talked to us about wiping down, disinfecting, especially because there’s spills, there’s leaks. We talked about maybe some mildew and yucky stuff. Now take us to the rest of the steps.

Kathi Lipp (10:18)
Yes.

Okay, so one, wipe down the disinfect, two, address those leaks or dampness. Now, I will find this little tool. I didn’t think about it until we were talking right now, but one of my nephews is a building, like he knows everything. He’s a world expert on concrete, which is, know, but an interesting, and I learned from him that concrete,

Either has no Wait either has cracks or is going to crack so that’s good information to know I didn’t know that but also he told me about a tool that you can get on Amazon that Detects leaks and dampness so I yeah, so if that is something that is a problem for you I’ll find the one that he recommends

Because I think that that’s important for us to have but check things check to see if things are wet Check the garbage disposal and seals if you see moisture or mildew fix it before putting anything back Okay, and then I’m gonna ask you to vacuum and sweep you may want to do this before you wipe things down But you know there’s floor under the sink if you need to get under their crayon crumbs and dust pile up quick vacuum

Tonya Kubo (11:27)
Okay.

Kathi Lipp (11:55)
or sweep ensures a fresh start. We love a fresh start. We love a clean sleep. And then I want you to let it dry thoroughly. Leave the doors open. If you need to stick a fan there to let everything, you don’t want to put moisture on top of moisture. So we’re gonna spend a little time just letting everything dry out. Bone dry cabinets prevent further musty smells, mold issues.

Tonya Kubo (11:58)
We do.

Kathi Lipp (12:23)
And I’m also gonna come back and say, wipe down the sides of the walls, okay? And this is where, you know, I just, want you to have a fresh start in that space. I use, there is a great misting spray. It’s a Clorox disinfecting spray that I have that I really like for those kind of different areas that can tend to have.

Tonya Kubo (12:29)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:53)
You know, you can have some issues build up there. So we’ll be sure to put that in there as well. But I really want to spend the bulk of our time here today, Tonya, talking about how do you organize for longevity? How do you organize so that you can go to that space? And Tonya, I want to take away the fear of under the sink. So that’s where I want to spend most of our time.

Tonya Kubo (13:23)
Okay, okay. So I think we should just take a quick break so that you can have that uninterrupted at this point. So please just stick with us because Kathi’s gonna come back and walk us through quite a few steps and some detail when it comes to organizing the under the sink area because it is so problematic. We’ll be right back.

Kathi Lipp (13:30)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:46)
All right, Kathi, take us home. How do we organize under the sink so that it stays neat?

Kathi Lipp (13:49)
Yes.

Let me tell you my goal here. When it comes to the area under the sink, we’re aiming for solutions, not storage of unresolved stuff. Let’s reclaim that space, friend. Let’s reclaim that space, okay? Because it’s very easy to just shove things that you don’t know what to do with them under the sink and just say, okay, well, that’s the place I would look for them. No, I want better for you, my friend. Okay.

So here are a few options of things that have really helped me with some of my, and by the way, this could be under your bathroom sink, this could be your kitchen sink, this could be utility room, all these places. first thing I wanna talk about are these two-tiered sliding drawers or caddies. They are perfect, they’re two-tier, so you get double space because,

That under the sink area can be pretty tall. It’s gonna be, for most modern homes, about the height of your dishwasher. And our dishwashers have two to three tiers on them. So let’s use that vertical space as much as we can. Now you’re under the sink. It was built in the 1950s. What does yours look like?

Tonya Kubo (15:12)
Well, so our garbage disposal takes up most of the under the sink space. So we’ve just got the space on either side of it. It’s weird. Super weird. ?

Kathi Lipp (15:15)
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, okay. So I may have a solution for you though.

I may have something for you. There are these slide out caddies that fit around your pipes, including, it might be wide enough to fit around your garbage disposal and your pipe under the sink. so those, you build them in, you screw them into the floor and they can pull out and give you a lot more storage space. So I don’t know, you…

Here’s what I’m gonna say every single episode. You’re gonna get so sick of me saying this, Tonya, but you have to.

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Wait, let me guess, let

me guess. Should I measure it first?

Kathi Lipp (15:57)
You should measure it which can I just guys I am the most unmeasured person like That looks like it would work No more. I am now a measuring tape full I want you you have to measure how deep it is how wide your stuff is and then we’ll put a link in there to see if that could fit another Solution might be stackable bits

So if your sink pipes are in the way using shorter bins that fit on either side, that may be have to, you know, what the most that you could do, Tonya. And then we talked about this last time and I know you haven’t had a chance to implement it yet, but I’m going to tempt you again with door mounted racks or hooks. Yes. You do. Okay. A strip.

Tonya Kubo (16:45)
I do have that underneath my sink. have, what do you call it? Like a, it’s a rod,

a rod, you know, to hang the towels or your rubber gloves or anything like that.

Kathi Lipp (16:52)
? okay. ? nice. Yes. Okay.

That I love that. Okay. My next thing I’m going to talk about is also rod related. And that is a tension rod. Now, why would you think why would you put a tension rod there for you can put spray bottles, you can hang those by their handles, or yes.

Tonya Kubo (17:05)
Mmm.

Yeah.

I could hang

spray bottles on mine. It is the perfect size because it’s not too thick. It’s not too thick.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)
Okay, so we’re gonna need to make sure that we see your you know You can give us a link to what you’ve used so I think this is such a small space But I want you to maximize it as much as possible because as we’ve determined It’s really really valuable, and I I’ll be honest with you. I have maximized many of my spaces

Tonya Kubo (17:38)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:47)
I haven’t maximized all of my, we have a weird bathroom upstairs that I need to, it needs to be more maximized. So we’ve got these ideas for you. gonna, we have a download with all of these links that you can use. But then I want you to think back to how can you group these by categories? So are there things you use every day? I remember when I had my apartment in Japan, I just had a little.

Tonya Kubo (17:55)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:14)
that I kept under the sink and I pulled it out every day and it had my washcloths, had my spray bottle, it had my sponges. That could be something you do. Backup items or less used products can go towards the back or the upper tiers, but you wanna keep those things that you’re using all the time. And then number three, label and limit. Label and limit how much you’re keeping of things.

Tonya Kubo (18:29)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:42)
Limit bins or baskets, for instance, cleaning cloths, trash bags, sponges. Also, if you bring in a new product, consider using up the old one. I don’t want you to hoard half-used containers, but I also don’t want you to throw away perfectly good products. So challenge yourself to use up what you have before buying something new. Or say, hey, I have a week left of this. I need to put it on my shopping list. And then…

Are there some additional items you need? If you’re storing any towels or rags, there are such things as moisture proof bins. So if you get a lot of moisture in your house, you may want to consider something like that. Or it might make sense to put a non-slip shelf liner to prevent bottles from sliding around. those are just, again, everybody’s under the sink area is so completely different.

There is no one size fits all, maybe a combination of some of these ideas could really help you out.

Tonya Kubo (19:45)
? gosh, I love that. tension rods, you that’s one of those things I see on TikTok a lot. Like you can do a lot of things with a tension rod. Who knew? And, but the hanging of the spray bottles, I don’t know why I’ve never thought about that. Mainly just because I moved in here and I use everything like the prior owners used it because I just don’t have energy for creativity.

Kathi Lipp (19:53)
You really can. Yes.

Yeah,

right, that’s okay. Your creativity is going to building a business. We use a lot of tension rods in our RV as well for storage and hanging and it’s made a big difference. So you’re right, there’s a lot of tension stuff. We’ll have to really explore tension rods in some of these upcoming episodes, because I think that could be a solution for a lot of people who are living in small spaces.

Tonya Kubo (20:16)
Mmm.

Yeah, okay, so tension rod and we’ve talked about labeling, which I love because I think if you live in a house where it’s more than just you, labeling is the secret to getting other people to help out because then they can’t tell you that they don’t know where things go.

Kathi Lipp (20:49)
Right, absolutely, absolutely. I think you’re exactly right there.

Tonya Kubo (20:53)
So Kathi, are there any final tips you want to tell us you want to add before we wrap up this particular episode on that under the sink area?

Kathi Lipp (21:03)
Yeah, this is the cave of the house, isn’t it? It is the dark, damp cave. But you can do most of this in under an hour if you declutter clean and then organize. First, organize with bins or caddies you have. And Tonya, let me just say, don’t sleep on Dollar Tree. I’m sending you links because

Tonya Kubo (21:06)
It really is.

Kathi Lipp (21:31)
There are not Dollar Tree links as far as I know. yeah, so, but there are caddies you can get at Dollar Tree. You can get tension rods at Dollar Tree. So, you know, one of the things I heard somebody say recently, I thought this was so brilliant. They said, you know, when they were buying tools for their first house, their grandfather said, buy the cheapest tools you can get. And then,

Tonya Kubo (21:34)
Not as far as I know either.

Kathi Lipp (22:00)
When those break, you know you use those enough to replace with something of quality. And I thought, that’s so smart. Instead of buying the best thing ever for every space, buy something, you know, for these solutions. I’ll just tell you, Tonya, I’m trying out all sorts of different organization solutions. I went and I dropped $40 at Dollar Tree.

Tonya Kubo (22:30)
?

Kathi Lipp (22:30)
You

can buy a lot of stuff at Dollar Tree. And so I’m trying to find out what’s the path of least resistance? Do I need the $25 Amazon thing or can I get away with the $1.25 version at Dollar Tree? And some of the things, let’s be honest, what you’re getting from Amazon or IKEA or, you know, there’s still Bed Bath and Beyond, you know, stuff you can buy.

Tonya Kubo (22:36)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:59)
Some of that it’s worth it to buy the solution that you need but some of it the dollar 25 version might be just fine. things like that for little storage under your sink. Don’t sleep on Dollar Tree. That’s what I would say.

Tonya Kubo (23:15)
my gosh, I think that’s a really good tip. And the big one there is just get the cheapest thing that makes sense. And when it breaks, when it wears out, then you know that it’s time to invest in something of a little higher quality versus buying top of the line because we’re buying to belong because we cluttery people do that thinking it’s going to make us more organized, more this, more that. And then finding out that we just don’t use it at all.

Kathi Lipp (23:31)
Exactly.

We love that.

Yeah, know, Tonya, we talked a little bit about this last time, sitting with our discomfort sometimes. And you said that, you you bought a pantry and you thought you needed more space, but what you really needed was to declutter and then put in a couple of organizational tools. And I love that example because that’s exactly it. Sit with your discomfort. Like, why does this area under the sink bother me? Well, I’m worried about…

Tonya Kubo (23:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:12)
the drips, I’m worried about whatever that is, I don’t feel like there’s enough space, we can address that. So sit with your discomfort for a little bit, buy the cheapest solution you can and then upgrade when you need to.

Tonya Kubo (24:18)
Mm-hmm.

my gosh, such juicy, juicy tidbits of wisdom. Thank you so much, Kathi. And thank you for addressing this, because I don’t think I’ve ever heard or saw anything in recent memory, at least that talks about the Under the Sink, but you’ve given me a whole new perspective on it. So I really appreciate that. And listeners, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for sticking it out, learning all about the dank dark underneath the sink area.

Kathi Lipp (24:45)
Yay!

Yeah

Tonya Kubo (24:54)
We appreciate it. You have been listening to Clutterfree Academy. Now go create the clutter free life you have always wanted to live.

#672 – From Pantry to Plate: The Secret to Smart Food Storage

Jun 3, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Foodie Friday, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

Join Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo in this episode of Clutter-Free Academy as they tackle the often overwhelming world of food storage. Whether you’re struggling with long-term pantry organization, fridge chaos, containers for on the go or finding the right containers for...

#671 – Sentimental Clutter: Finding Freedom in Letting Go

May 27, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Relationships

Kathi Lipp returns with Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register to address a common challenge faced by those on the clutter-free journey: sentimental items. In this insightful episode, the trio tackles the emotional weight of inherited belongings and the guilt that often...

#670 – Emotional Decluttering: A Journey Through Sentimental Keepsakes

May 20, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp is joined by clutter experts Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register for the second part of their heartfelt discussion on sentimental items. Discover the emotions that often lead us to hold onto things we neither love nor...

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

by Roger Lipp | Apr 22, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 2 comments

#666 – The Nightstand Reset: Creating a Launch Pad for Peace

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo delve into the importance of a tidy nightstand for a better night’s sleep and a more organized life. They discuss Kathi’s recent purchase of new nightstands with built-in outlets, her nighttime routine essentials, and practical strategies for keeping your bedroom clutter-free. Whether it’s finding the right furniture, using drawer dividers, or setting up a night basket, Kathi and Tonya offer a step-by-step system to help listeners turn their nightstand into a launchpad for an organized day. And don’t miss the listener challenge that encourages you to declutter your own nightstand and reap the benefits.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Sand & Stable Scarlett 2 – Drawer End Table and Built-In Outlets & Reviews | Wayfair

Download the Free Guide:
The Nightstand Reset – your 10-minute guide to a more peaceful evening

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Meet Our Co-Host

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with Tonya Kubo, leader of all things clutter free. Tonya, we are back into small spaces. We love a good small space. you know, our last podcast was our spiciest episode ever. And now it’s Tonya and Kathi after dark.

Tonya Kubo (00:40)
I you hide these from me just to get my reaction.

Kathi Lipp (00:44)
come on. actually that one that one I just came up with.

And let me tell you, on one of my favorite podcasts, Wirecutter. At the end of the podcast, they ask, what’s your favorite thing that you’ve bought recently? And so Tonya, want you to, I want to pretend I’m on Wirecutter and I want you to ask me that question. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (01:10)
Okay, so Kathi Lipp, what is your

favorite thing you have bought recently?

Kathi Lipp (01:14)
I’m so glad you asked. I’m so, so glad you asked because I’m so excited about this. And I bought it. I actually don’t have it. So maybe check with me in six months to see if I still love it. But can I tell you, you know, something I have discovered Tonya is I am really good at decluttering and I am a total cheapskate when it comes to organization. Like I’ve, I’ve thought for years, I don’t need to

Tonya Kubo (01:24)
Ha ha ha ha!

Ha!

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:44)
buy all these wacky organizational tools. don’t need, and then I’ve come to find out sometimes you do. You’re creating the system, but to keep the system going, sometimes you’re like, okay, I just need to do this. And so I have finally broken down and I have bought new nightstands. Now I haven’t bought a new nightstand. I’m not exaggerating. Since I was married the first time,

Tonya Kubo (01:47)
Mm-hmm.

I’m right.

Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
And that was in 1990. So I have not bought a nightstand for myself in 35 years. So I’m going to tell you about this nightstand. So the nightstands we have now, because they were passed down when we bought this house, so you could say we bought it since we bought a house and these came with it, but I digress. They’re very open. And so you see everything.

Tonya Kubo (02:17)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:43)
And

I don’t like that look. And no, I am not a Swedish girlie. I wish I could be, but that is just not how I live my life. And so I’m reverting back to the nightstand of my youth, which was two drawers. And one drawer was for everything you need every single night. And the other drawer is for things you may need less option, but you definitely want to have.

Tonya Kubo (02:45)
You don’t like the open concept nightstand, is that what you’re telling me?

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:12)
And now these new nightstands have in the top of the nightstand, they have built-in chargers.

Tonya Kubo (03:23)
What? Like, like chargers for a phone or like, like outlets for like a regular cord?

Kathi Lipp (03:24)
Yes. Yes.

Outlets

outlets so you can put your USB cords in them and Yes, and can I tell you how excited I am about this little update and the reviews on these are really good I’ll put them. It’s on Wayfair. I’ll put a link so you guys can see them, but That is what we’re talking about today is nightstands because we’re going through the house and we’re doing all these little micro spaces and

Tonya Kubo (03:36)
God

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (03:59)
These microspaces make the difference day to day of how we operate our life. So let me ask you about your nightstand situation, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (04:02)
Mm-hmm.

well, mean, my nightstand situation is not that exciting because the way our house is set up. So we have one nightstand and that’s on Brian’s side of the bed and it is one drawer and a shelf at the bottom. So it’s kind of a hybrid of what you have. And then on my side, because the bed has to be pushed so close to the dresser, I just use the top of the dresser as my nightstand, which is problematic because I don’t get the benefit of drawers because it’s our dresser drawers.

Kathi Lipp (04:16)
my goodness.

Yes. Yes, yes.

okay.

Right.

Yes. Yeah, that I think you got the short stick.

Tonya Kubo (04:40)
totally got the short end of the stick. And if you come into our bedroom, it makes him look like Brian is the organized person. And I am not because of course for him, he just tucks everything into the drawer before he like leaves in the morning. Meanwhile, everything, you know, like my eye drops and all of my stuff has to be on top of the dresser. So it’s just not an ideal situation. It’s one of those things where we’ve talked about like,

Kathi Lipp (04:50)
Okay.

Beautiful.

Mmm, yes.

Tonya Kubo (05:06)
Well, we should do it differently, we’re like, okay, well we have to wait till we buy a new dresser and then we can do this and then we can do that. And then suddenly I’m tired. I don’t want to change.

Kathi Lipp (05:10)
Yeah.

Right. It’s

the give a mouse a cookie of nightstands and nobody needs that, right? So I have found part of the reason that I’ve made this change is a couple of reasons. One, Roger has a CPAP and we need a place to put all of that nonsense, right? But the other thing is I have noticed when my nightstand gets too backed up,

Tonya Kubo (05:18)
Exactly!

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:42)
I

actually don’t sleep well because I’m afraid my phone’s going to fall off. I’m afraid about that glass of water. Like, and I at night, I don’t want to spend time cleaning all that nonsense up, but I really do feel. And this is this. If you listen to our podcast listeners from Dr. Vicky Casper, where she was talking about getting better sleep, she says a neat organized bedroom.

Tonya Kubo (05:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:12)
Impacts

your sleep in really really good ways And so I know that a neat surface actually helps me fall asleep faster It it feels more invite. I love walking into our room when the bed is made the nightstand is clear and it’s like, It’s just all waiting for me. Does that make sense? I don’t know Yeah

Tonya Kubo (06:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it totally makes sense. And I also

think that, you know, I’m a big proponent of routines, like having a solid morning routine and an evening routine. And my thing is, your evening routine should be all about making your morning easier. And your morning routine is all about making the end of your day easier. And so I can imagine having a tidy nightstand really makes the mornings easier at your house.

Kathi Lipp (06:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to sink into bed. And, you know, I have a little routine that I do each night. And to have all of that there and then to have what I need in the morning, my phone, my glasses, all that kind of stuff. It just makes everything better. OK. go ahead.

Tonya Kubo (07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so was going to say, so, so, you know, we’ve talked about the value of a tidy nightstand. We talked about a couple of different nightstand situations. So let’s just say our listeners not there yet, Kathi. Our listener doesn’t have the open concept nightstand that is soon to be replaced by a closed concept nightstand.

Kathi Lipp (07:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I get it.

I

am waiting for the FedEx guy right here. I am.

Tonya Kubo (07:44)
Yeah,

with power associated with it. Like that’s my favorite part of the whole thing. So walk us through how to get started. Okay, the nightstand is out of control. What do we do?

Kathi Lipp (07:48)
my goodness, right?

Yes, me too.

Yeah.

Okay. And by the way, I have been perfect. My nightstand that I’ve had has been perfectly serviceable. It’s just not my ideal situation. And right now I wanted to do something for me. So it doesn’t matter what your nightstand situation is. It all starts the same way. So first, again, as, as long time listeners, this podcast has been going for a decade now.

Tonya Kubo (08:17)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:26)
I’ve always said don’t pull everything out at once and put it in the middle of the room, but we’re talking about super small spaces here, tiny, tiny, tiny spaces. So I’m gonna tell you, pull everything out. I want you to pull out the books, the cords, the lotions, the random socks. I mean, we’ve all been there, right? Let me talk about other things I have in there, like the tweezers, the chapstick, and then you’re gonna sort this into a couple of different piles, so keep.

Tonya Kubo (08:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:55)
What truly belongs? So do you have medications that you need to take at night? That phone charger, your chapstick, maybe you have a little vase you want to keep on that nightstand. I like to a pin at my nightstand, my glasses. So I’m going to keep those. And then another pile is relocate. What has wandered there that does not need to be there?

Tonya Kubo (09:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:23)
I’m embarrassed. I don’t know. You I have weird stuff there. And also I have too many pairs of glasses. I don’t need like four pairs of glasses right there.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
Okay, do you want to the weird stuff that’s in Brian’s drawer when I clean it out? Candy wrappers. He hides the candy wrappers because you know he’s like sneaking the candy so that one of the two children doesn’t see and then he stashes the wrappers in the drawer.

Kathi Lipp (09:36)
I don’t know, do I?

yes.

Well, you know what? Go off, King. That’s all I have to say. Brian has lost a ton of weight. He’s gotten so healthy. Whatever candy he wants, Brian gets. So…

Tonya Kubo (09:55)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

to say it’s so funny is I’ll go to his drawer to like look for something because that’s oftentimes where we have a backup charger. I’m like, of all, I didn’t know we had peeps and there were twicks in this house and nobody told me I am not okay with this.

Kathi Lipp (10:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. Okay,

can I just go a little off topic? I think what I need to put out into the universe, because I have dropped this hint too many times and have been ignored by Roger Lipp, the Japanese assortment of Twix. Have you guys, you seem like the household that would have had these at some point.

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

yes. Yeah,

well we’ve had the Japanese assortment of Kit Kats. There’s like 40 different versions. Yeah, 40 different versions. Yes. I’m just gonna tell you right now, strawberries and champagne, hard pass. It tastes like rotten grapes. Just gonna tell you right there. I did a whole like Instagram live on it because they were so bad. So bad.

Kathi Lipp (10:45)
That’s what I meant! I’m sorry KitKat, not Twix. Yes.

really? Okay. Eww!

I had no

idea. Okay, but I want to try the rest of them. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (11:05)
The rest of them are amazing, especially

the ones that they have that you’re supposed to broil. Yes, we can talk about this after the episode.

Kathi Lipp (11:10)
What? Okay, we have, we

have real, no, people will email me. Okay, just tell me, how do you broil a Kit Kat?

Tonya Kubo (11:20)
It is a regular KitKat, but you’re supposed to like broil it and they have these in-depth instructions about what the degrees are and how long because you have to be careful because it starts to melt. But it’s I think it’s toasted marshmallow flavor. And then so you broil it to like toast it. But it ends up just being a melty mess and it’s delicious. It’s worth the mess.

Kathi Lipp (11:27)
Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Okay,

so guys if you want to know how to do that I would say go on AI or google because I I don’t know but I We need to figure this out. Okay, so you have your keep pile things you want to keep in your nightstand You have your relocate? Apparently candy wrapper. Well the next the kitkat candy wrappers go into the next day discard recycle trash old receipts anything that’s expired etc, etc and

Tonya Kubo (11:45)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (12:08)
Before you reload this is the time to get out the handy vac you want to go deep in there you want to get all of that cleaned out give it a good wipe let it air out a little bit and a clean slate helps you see how much space you really have and then We’re gonna we we’re going to I want you to wipe down the top, too I want you to you know, just whether you use furniture polish a Clorox wipe, whatever it is

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Just make sure you’re starting off with a clean slate.

Tonya Kubo (12:43)
That sounds good. you know what? It’s time for us to take a little break before we get to the rest of it. But when we come back from the break, stay listening because we’re going to talk about the right furniture, the right accessories, these important things that will help you maximize your space. We’ll be right back.

Kathi Lipp (12:47)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:02)
All right, and we are back talking right furniture, accessories, and really getting to the practical. How do you do the thing? How do you have an effective nightstand? So Kathi okay, so you’ve upgraded to the two drawer nightstand with built-in outlets. I was hoping that you would talk to us a little bit more about.

Kathi Lipp (13:18)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (13:24)
why you felt like that was the right solution given your current circumstances, because you already told us what you have now is actually serviceable.

Kathi Lipp (13:27)
Yeah.

It’s totally fine, but I will say I did have to put like a basket on the second layer. know, so we have a drawer up top, which is a very thin drawer and then a, just a shelf at the bottom and I had to put a basket on that. So that would be the basket I pulled out at night with like my face cream, all that kind of stuff. So we’ll talk more about that in a second, but I just wanted, I wanted to be able to close things up at night and just be done, but also,

Tonya Kubo (14:01)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:02)
Be able to see what I have and what I need and so this little tiny drawer I have it’s fine But it means everything has to be stored laying down and it just it wasn’t smooth Let me just say that it wasn’t smooth and so I I do have a really lovely solution that my my lamp is built is attached on the wall

Tonya Kubo (14:31)
Mmm. That’s nice.

Kathi Lipp (14:31)
So it doesn’t take any space up.

that’s really nice because that can take a lot of your usable space top. I just, at 57, I wanted to walk into my room and not have it be so utilitarian, but just to be lovely. If I wanted to, you know, we have wildflowers here. I want a little vase of wildflowers. I want my book to be on my nightstand.

Tonya Kubo (14:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:58)
I don’t want a bunch of medications, know, tissues, that kind of stuff. I want it to look lovely. And I will say one other thing I’ve done that this would not work for my friend Brian Kubo, who is trying to sneak his candy. But we have put between our nightstand and our bed, just a thin, clear, waste paper basket that, you know, so for that occasional tissue, that occasional candy wrapper, like the things we can just throw them in there and

Tonya Kubo (15:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:26)
It does help keep that space a little bit neater and tidier.

Tonya Kubo (15:31)
Yeah, well, I can imagine, you know, I know for us we have blown through charging cables because of tripping, tripping over the cord. So this sounds to me like that would solve that problem as well.

Kathi Lipp (15:37)
Mmm. Yes. Yes.

Yes, I think, you know, and the chords make, we have so many chords in our life. And I get sick of looking at chords. I mean, it’s not, is it going to disrupt my whole day? But no, to have less chords is kind of a beautiful thing.

Tonya Kubo (15:49)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, and then I just want to say like on the inside drawers, we’ve talked in prior episodes about the honeycomb or box dividers. So I just think it’s important to highlight the fact that if you have drawers, we’re not necessarily saying just dump everything in there equally. There are drawer solutions in terms of organizing as well.

Kathi Lipp (16:05)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

No, no.

Yeah, I’m gonna wait till I get these drawers in my house and then I’m going to Put the dividers in that we’ve talked about, you know, these are spring-loaded so that they’ll fit in almost any drawer and The honeycomb box so I can put little things in there. But yeah, that makes it so much Everything’s standing up. You can see everything at once

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so what else do you have for us?

Kathi Lipp (16:45)
Well, you I’ve told you about my night basket before, in case nobody’s heard about this before. This is just a basket I use at night. So I have things in there like I’ve got a pill organizer that, you know, there are a couple of medications I take at night. So I put those in there. I have face wipes, the Neutrogena face wipes, because I’ll just be honest, when it gets past seven o’clock,

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:12)
If it’s a choice between me getting out of bed to wash my face or laying in bed with my Neutrogena wipes or not getting out of bed at all and going to bed to sleep, Neutrogena wipes for the win. And then I have facial cream. have neck cream. Now I do get out of bed to brush my teeth, drink my water and stuff, but every once in a while, I’ll be honest. I would say, you know, maybe once a week, maybe once every other week.

Tonya Kubo (17:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:42)
I’m like, I can’t even, and I know that grosses some people out. So one of the things I’ve done is I keep dental wipes in there. So, you know, they’re loaded with toothpaste and I can just, and I’ve got little tiny toothbrush and I keep my dental floss in there and it just makes my life easier. I also will take some vitamins at night. So like I keep everything in that bag. I will, I don’t know what my bag is going to look like with this new setup.

Tonya Kubo (17:49)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:10)
but I will have some kind of little bag or tote that I can pull out and have everything that I need at night. And one thing I’ve just added to it is just a little Tupperware container that has a moose treat in it. And because she comes to bed with me and I just wanna have a little routine for her at night. So it corrals all my bedtime routine into, know, steps into one place. And I am 93 % more likely to do it because I have it all together.

Tonya Kubo (18:10)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, I love that. And you know what? A little bit earlier you were just saying you get sick of looking at chords. Any tips in that front?

Kathi Lipp (18:46)
Yeah.

So I would say one of things that we’ve done is and I feel like this is absolute genius. I got a multi-pronged outlet and I put Velcro on the back of the outlet and then the other Velcro on the back of my nightstand. And so I can I can take that off. I can plug everything in and then I can slap it on the back.

Tonya Kubo (18:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:16)
and you don’t see all those chords going crazy. just, I feel like that was kind of a genius solution. makes me super, super happy.

Tonya Kubo (19:20)
Well…

Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I’m visualizing, which is why I’m talking slowly. So what about emotions? Cause you know, Kathi over in Clairefree Academy and our Facebook group, you want to believe that there’s not like it, it’s just stuff or you want to believe that something in the house doesn’t have emotion, but there’s emotional connections to everything for someone, right? So how do you address that side when it comes to the nightstand?

Kathi Lipp (19:30)
Yes.

Yeah, everything. Yes.

Yeah, I think, you know, it’s a little bit, we talked about the underwear drawer the other day and how we keep sometimes sentimental things there. If you’re going to display something on your nightstand, I think it’s an excellent place to put it. But I think what we, know, Tonya, our grandmothers and great grandmothers had trousseaux. They had, you know, a keepsake chest where they could keep all those things. And we’ve gotten away from that. And I think that each of us,

Tonya Kubo (19:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah!

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:24)
needs a box, a place to put those things that maybe are not going to be displayed, but are still precious to us. Because if they’re in our nightstand, I don’t know about you, but I just told you all the lotions and potions I keep in my nightstand. If I’ve got a love letter from Roger, do I really want that next to my bath and body works, you know, hibiscus? No, I don’t. Let me keep that in a special place. Let

Tonya Kubo (20:29)
Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

huh.

Kathi Lipp (20:51)
So let, if you wanna keep a framed photo or something like that, that’s lovely, go for it. But if you just don’t know where else to keep it, get a box that is just for things that are important to you because we all have memories that are important to us that maybe we don’t have to keep it, but you know what? We get to keep some silly stuff. We get to keep some emotional stuff. I think that that is okay. I just want you to also think about

Tonya Kubo (21:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:21)
We talked about this in our coat closet using that as a launch pad what if you thought of your nightstand as your you nighttime shutdown area and your morning launch area So i’m gonna keep my glasses here. I’m gonna keep my phone here. I’m gonna keep my e-reader here These are the things you know, i’m charging my watch i’m keeping everything here I have a little notepad here if I want to keep notes. This is where my book goes

Tonya Kubo (21:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you

Kathi Lipp (21:50)
So you have all of that that you need when you wake up in the morning and you reset it at night and it’s good to go. You you have your bottle of water. Like I put a bottle of water next to my nightstand every night and I may take a sip, a couple of sips at night, but the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I chug that whole bottle of water because I forget to drink water during the day.

Tonya Kubo (22:12)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (22:15)
But if it’s right there next to my nightstand, I’m gonna chug it as soon as I get up when I’m at my thirstiest. So think of it as your lunch.

Tonya Kubo (22:24)
I love that. I love that. Okay. So nightstand as a launch pad, which I think is a powerful reframe. And Kathi just want say thank you because you are the person who is designing these episodes for practical action for our listeners. just get to show up and ask questions and be curious. It’s like my favorite thing. And listeners, I’m just grateful to you.

Kathi Lipp (22:41)
You

Tonya Kubo (22:46)
for joining us, lending us your ears and taking advantage of all of these practical tips. So we’ve covered the why, the how and the emotional side of decluttering your nightstand. Your challenge this week is going to empty the nightstand. Try Kathi’s advice of setting up the night basket, maybe invest in a pillow organizer and see how it transforms your evenings. Make sure to check out the show notes though, cause we’ve got resources there for you to all different places and a handout that goes along with this episode.

Kathi Lipp (23:13)
Mmm, you got

go ahead Tonya. I was just gonna say one other thing is that make sure that you’re regularly cleaning it out It’s easy to let silly things like a lotion sample or you know, something along those lines just Don’t don’t get in your own way when it comes to the nightstand. You don’t need to keep all that stuff I’m sorry. I stepped on you, but it just occurred to me. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (23:18)
Mm-hmm.

no, you’re all good? Well,

because maintenance is so important, right? I think we’ve done a great job of talking about how to get it to a status. And what you did was remind us that it’s worth the time to keep it there. So thank you, friends. You’ve been listening to ClutterFree Academy. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Kathi Lipp (23:42)
It really is. Yeah.

#672 – From Pantry to Plate: The Secret to Smart Food Storage

Jun 3, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Foodie Friday, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

Join Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo in this episode of Clutter-Free Academy as they tackle the often overwhelming world of food storage. Whether you’re struggling with long-term pantry organization, fridge chaos, containers for on the go or finding the right containers for...

#671 – Sentimental Clutter: Finding Freedom in Letting Go

May 27, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Relationships

Kathi Lipp returns with Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register to address a common challenge faced by those on the clutter-free journey: sentimental items. In this insightful episode, the trio tackles the emotional weight of inherited belongings and the guilt that often...

#670 – Emotional Decluttering: A Journey Through Sentimental Keepsakes

May 20, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp is joined by clutter experts Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register for the second part of their heartfelt discussion on sentimental items. Discover the emotions that often lead us to hold onto things we neither love nor...

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Apr 8, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#664 – Transform Your Underwear Drawer: Tips for a Peaceful Start to Your Day

Listen Now

In this laugh-out-loud and surprisingly transformational episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep—literally—into the drawer that gets no love but causes a whole lot of frustration: your sock and underwear drawer. From chicken footprints and Sharpies to mismatched socks and holy underwear, they uncover the oddities that sneak into this tiny space—and provide the simple steps you need to bring peace and order to your most intimate drawer.

In This Episode You’ll Learn:

Why worn-out socks and too-tight undies deserve a swift exit

The magic number of pairs you really need (based on your lifestyle!)

Kathi’s favorite affordable organizing tools (spoiler: cereal boxes included)

What to do with all the random stuff hiding in your drawer

Why your underwear drawer should be the least stressful part of your day

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Download the Free Guide:
Declutter Your Sock & Underwear Drawer Cheat Sheet – A step-by-step plan to sort, toss, and organize.

FYI: Some product links are affiliate links. If you buy, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for your support!

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my Clutter co-creator. Yeah, we create clutter together, but we also clean it up together. It’s Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, this is Clutter After Dark.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)

Hey, Kathi!

Kathi Lipp (00:33)

This is our most intimate episode ever. Guys, we’re talking underwear here. Can I just say, before we talk about getting into discussing, we’re talking about decluttering your underwear and sock drawer. Now, first of all, Tonya, do your underwear and sock co-mingle? Like, how are you set up?

Tonya Kubo (00:38)

Can we have

Yeah, so my underwear, socks, co-mingle.

Kathi Lipp (01:04)

Okay, okay. And when I’m saying underwear, I’m meaning all the categories, okay? So like, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (01:09)

Yeah, yeah. So like for me, it’s like camis and

like long, like long johns and stuff for when I travel to cold areas. My slips, all of that. That’s all one drawer with the socks.

Kathi Lipp (01:17)

Okay.

Okay,

there are gonna be people who are like, what are slips? I mean there really will be. That’s okay. Hey, so, but you didn’t slip, okay, nevermind. We’re gonna stop with all the puns. Yeah, my underwear, sock drawer, it’s bras, sports bras, tights, all of that kind of stuff. And they’re all very individual. But I do wanna say this. If you have never tried…

Tonya Kubo (01:25)

I know. I know. But I have a slurp.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:49)

the sports bras and underwear from Costco, may I highly suggest like I I I’ve I have converted I have converted fully and I’ll put the links down there to they’re not affiliate links. A lot of the things we do in here are affiliate links, which means hey, the clutter free people make a little bit of money off of this. So but these are not Costco doesn’t do that kind of thing. But I just love them so much. And you know what?

Tonya Kubo (01:53)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:17)

I love that I can pick up some new underwear next to my rotisserie chicken. Just makes me super happy. Okay, so if you are tired of mismatched socks, holy underwear, or random junk in your drawers, today we have got a very quick plan to fix it. We are gonna talk about matching socks, we’re gonna talk about organizers, we’re gonna throw out.

what’s worn and unloved, we’re gonna get you into shape. Because I don’t know about you, Tonya, like my first thing I do in the morning is drink coffee, and the second thing I do in the morning is get ready. So gathering up what I’m going to wear is one of my first jobs, and I don’t wanna be mad first thing in the morning. So this feels like a good launching point for us.

Tonya Kubo (02:45)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, I agree. And so, and this is timely for me because I just went through my socks and underwear drawer. We just did a deep laundry decluttering of everybody’s clothing and such. So, but I have a feeling that your situation’s a lot different than my situation because you have fewer people and you don’t have children in the house. So tell me what was your drawer situation before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (03:14)

Did you? Okay.

nice.

Yeah. Yes. Right.

Okay, so I have one big giant drawer and I was trying to kind of put things into piles. So like there was a sock pile and there was an underwear pile and a miscellaneous pile. And then also let’s talk about the nonsense that was in my drawer because that’s a running theme in this podcast. So I probably would win.

Tonya Kubo (03:38)

Mm-hmm.

You

Kathi Lipp (04:01)

the award for the strangest thing kept in my underwear drawer, which was a footprint of one of my chickens who has passed. I…

Tonya Kubo (04:16)

see why you would keep it in the underwear drawer though.

Kathi Lipp (04:18)

I didn’t know what else to do with it. And so like it was one of those things where I, yeah, I just didn’t know what, I think a lot of things that we don’t know what to do with end up in that kind of drawer. Okay, do tell me.

Tonya Kubo (04:33)

I’ll make you feel a little bit better, Kathi. So in mine,

baby teeth, because where are the kids guaranteed not to look, right? They’re not going to dig through mom’s underwear. The second thing is during the pandemic, right? I couldn’t go to a salon and get pedicure. So I bought like all the salon stuff and all the extra like foot files and that thing that looks like a bar of soap, but is actually like porous that they scrub your foot with. I have one of those in my underwear drawer. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (04:38)

Yes, yes, I… Right, exaca. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes, right?

Okay,

yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (05:03)

Yeah.

So and then I have like just random stuff. have markers, Sharpie markers that I didn’t want Abby to get into to draw on the walls. Put them in my underwear drawer, of course. So there you go.

Kathi Lipp (05:10)

Yes.

Look,

and why do receipts end up there? That’s a good question. Receipts, phone chargers, things like that, right?

Tonya Kubo (05:20)

Yeah. Right.

Totally. Totally true. Okay. So we got a picture of your drawer and all the randomness. What was that like during your day to day life? I imagine you weren’t having to take out the chicken foot imprint every single time to get ready, but still there was probably like, I don’t know, some wasted effort.

Kathi Lipp (05:36)

No,

Okay, well, I’m admitting all my foolishness in one place, okay? So why did I have socks in there that the elastic was blown out on? I think I was just so happy that I matched the sock that I didn’t care if I actually liked the sock.

Tonya Kubo (05:58)

Right?

My college roommate used to say, if it’s washed, it has to be worn before you can get rid of it. Otherwise you wasted the effort of washing. Yeah. So any things she would like come out with like, holey underwear. And she’s like, no, I have to wear these, but as soon as I wear them, I will throw them away. And I’m like, I would throw them away now actually.

Kathi Lipp (06:10)

I totally get that.

Okay. Yes.

my goodness. Yes. Because what if you end up at the hospital with holey underwear? I’m, you know, like this is deeply embedded in me, but here’s the thing, something that I haven’t really talked with you a bunch about, you know, I have, you know this, I have a bad back and I have done a lot of strength training and everything like that. And you know, they show all these commercials for people, for shoes to put on.

you know, when it’s hard for you to bend. And for me, it’s just one side of my body. What they don’t talk about is the socks. The socks, shoes are not a problem for me. It’s the socks. And so here’s the problem. If one of my, I tend to watch, wear those no-show socks because I’m a Gen Xer. That’s what we prefer. And if one of those socks slips down while I’m in the middle of Costco,

Tonya Kubo (06:53)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:20)

It’s not going back up. Yeah, and so like those need to be gone friend. Those need to be gone. Yeah, it’s my secret chain. Okay, so it was frustrating. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (07:20)

yeah, yeah.

Okay, it was frustrating.

But you’re on the other side, Kathi You are teaching us from the other side. So, and what I love about the series that we’ve been talking about, where we’re tackling these small spaces, is your solutions are just simple and yet with high impact. So tell me where you got started with your underwear and socks drawer.

Kathi Lipp (07:37)

I am.

Yes.

Okay, removing all the single socks. Like, okay, why are single socks there? I think what I thought was, well, when I find the other single sock, I will go back there. What I finally did is I just have a bag with single socks, and after a little while, like, I’ll gather all of them up, and I’ll say, these have been in here for three months. Now, if I don’t find them in the next go around, they need to be thrown away. But also, throwing away socks where

Tonya Kubo (08:16)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:26)

The elastic is blown out on them. They’re not the ones I like. They feel funny on my feet. Now, let me also say, when I was a single mom, it didn’t matter if they felt funny on my feet. I was keeping them because I was broke, right? But can we all agree if your underwear is falling down, it’s time to throw it away. If it’s cutting off your circulation or something like that.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:56)

I need you to throw those things away because that’s not how we should be living. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (09:00)

Exactly. Well, I would say if

anything that is supposed to be contained is falling out, you deserve to throw them away.

Kathi Lipp (09:07)

Exactly and let me also say with those single socks. I finally just realized I need to keep those in The laundry room so when I’m done folding laundry if there’s a sock left over I can put that where the other socks go instead of having to do a sock scavenger hunt before I try matching things up

Tonya Kubo (09:16)

Mmm.

Right?

Okay, so you had one spot for your random socks. You talked about getting rid of your worn out unwanted items, right? So the socks that slipped down, the undies that just have lost their containment factor. So once you get rid of all the bad stuff, then what?

Kathi Lipp (09:34)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

They’re not doing it anymore. Yes, exactly.

I’ll also say on the underwear anything you’d be embarrassed to show up at the hospital with you know let’s just go ahead and say you know Stains you know things like that whatever you need to do. Just be done with it. Okay, so now what I’ve done is I’ve used a couple of organizational solutions, so I Don’t know it’s called a honeycomb organizer and Okay, so it is

Tonya Kubo (10:02)

Mm-hmm.

I have no idea what that is. Talk to me, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (10:21)

You put it down in your and I’ll link all of this in our show notes so you can see what I’m talking about. But it’s got like a bunch of little squares. They’re more like trying like diamonds that when you undo this and you can put a pair of socks in there or you can put a pair of underwear in there. So it’s not just a giant pile, but you can see everything you have. And for me,

Tonya Kubo (10:35)

Got it.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:50)

And I think for a lot of people who struggle with clutter, when things are hidden, they’re no longer used. And so this says, no, this is what you have and you can go, I just love going to my drawer and plucking out that orange pair of no-show socks. Nobody’s gonna see them, but I know that they’re there and it makes me so happy. And I can see everything I have. And then I have some small fabric boxes for things like bras or sports bras.

Tonya Kubo (10:55)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (11:18)

tights, underwear, things like that. It just is a way of being able to see everything. Now, I’ve ordered those off of Amazon, but if you are, you know, if money is a struggle right now, which it is for a lot of people, could you use a shoe box? Could you use a tiny shoe box for little kids? At one point in my life, I use cereal boxes for organization. just…

Tonya Kubo (11:47)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:48)

I

had to because I had no money. So those are things you could use. So try using multiple smaller boxes with out lids and that can really help you keep organized in some of, it’s just a drawer divider that will get you to the next step.

Tonya Kubo (12:05)

Ooh, okay, well I am excited because we are going to go on a break, but when we come back, you’re actually going to answer probably one of the most often questions, often asked questions that we get in Clutterfree Academy, which is how many pairs do you actually need? Seriously, Kathi, that question comes up all the time. Plus you are going to tell us what to do with those items that don’t belong. We’ll be right back.

Kathi Lipp (12:08)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)

All right, we are back Kathi and you are going to tell us the secrets of the universe as it relates to underwear and socks drawers. How do we figure out how many pairs of socks and underwear we really need?

Kathi Lipp (12:37)

Yeah

I think the first thing you have to figure out is how often do you do laundry? Because if you’re doing laundry just once a week, figure out how many pairs of underwear, how many pairs of socks you wear in a week. And I would say add two or three, right? Because you want to be able, but if you’re doing laundry multiple times a week, you probably don’t need as many. Maybe you just need divide by two, add three.

Tonya Kubo (12:52)

Hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:17)

So I think really using your scientific method here and saying, what do I actually use? And if you’re like, I don’t know, that doesn’t feel like enough, that feels weird, that feels scary, then what I’ll suggest you do is put in the amount that feels comfortable in that space. So maybe eight pairs of underwear feels good in that space. Do you ever run out?

Tonya Kubo (13:17)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:44)

That’s a great question. Do I ever run out of that space? I tried to dial back to eight. It didn’t really work for me because sometimes I’m wearing more than a pair in a day. know, sometimes when I’m changing for bed, like whatever, everybody has their own routine. So you have to figure out what actually works for you. And I think that that’s okay to do. I also have different kinds of socks. I have the no-show socks and then I have the socks I wear in the snow.

Tonya Kubo (13:45)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (14:12)

So eight pairs of socks is not going to be enough. When it’s cold outside, I need more heftier socks. So you just have to apply a little bit of the scientific method. One thing that really helped me figure this out though, Tonya, was when I, in addition to that honeycomb organizer I talked about and the different little boxes, I put drawer dividers in my drawers.

Tonya Kubo (14:20)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:41)

These are spring loaded so that they fit the short ways in your drawer. So I have now a section for underwear, a section for sports bras, a section for regular bras. It’s like putting drawer dividers in there so that you can section out your space. And that really said, this is how much space I actually have.

Tonya Kubo (14:41)

you

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)

for my bras. This is actually how much space I have for my slips or tights or whatever it is. And that really helped me out.

Tonya Kubo (15:08)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

I love that. I love that. And I think that, you you brought up some good points about not just laundry schedule, but also habit. For instance, like when I used to, I used to work out six days a week, not the life I currently live, but I would like there was the workout underwear that served a certain purpose. There was the day to day underwear that served a certain purpose. So that was a time in my life when I needed a lot more than I need now. But I love that idea of combining

Kathi Lipp (15:26)

Yeah. Okay.

Yes, right, yes.

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (15:43)

the physical space that you have to fit the things with the laundry schedule. I think that’s really powerful.

Kathi Lipp (15:46)

Yes.

And Tonya, we are not minimalists, but we are minimal-ish. We are always determining what is the least amount of an item that I could live with that still serves its purpose. Minimalists might say, no, I’m going to arrange my life around only having

Tonya Kubo (15:53)

No.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:16)

you know, five pairs of socks. No, we’re going to arrange our socks out of our minimal need that we actually have.

Tonya Kubo (16:17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, like when we were just going through our stuff, you know, I settled on 13 pairs of underwear. Why? Because I just, because actually it was like, these are my favorite, like these are my favorites, right? And then I made an Amazon mistake, which I’m just sharing with our listeners in case they make the mistake. So sometimes on Amazon, you think you’re ordering one thing and it come to find out you are ordering a package of multiple things. And so I had wanted to get some of those long boxer shorts.

Kathi Lipp (16:31)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes! Yes!

Yes. Right.

Tonya Kubo (16:55)

to wear underneath dresses. And I wanted a black pair and a white pair and I accidentally ordered packages of eight pairs each.

Kathi Lipp (17:04)

Wow, fancy you.

Tonya Kubo (17:07)

fancy me with my 16 pairs of long boxer shorts that roll all the way up to your hip if you try to wear them underneath jeans. So I just decided that, you know, the 10 or so pairs that did not get worn at all did not need to be with me at all. And Brian was very happy. I think I have my own section of the donation center at this point, but. Right.

Kathi Lipp (17:10)

Right.

that’s so funny.

Right?

I love that. I love that

so much. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (17:35)

So I just want

to share, since we are sharing some Amazon links in the show notes, I just want to let you all know that you should pay attention to both the quantity and also the unit items inside the quantity that you’re purchasing.

Kathi Lipp (17:43)

It’s so true. It’s so true,

absolutely.

Tonya Kubo (17:49)

Okay, so Kathi, talk to me about brands. Because you mentioned like there’s some no-show socks that you particularly like. You like the Costco underwear. But at some point, you were using something else. How do you fit like the whole brands I love versus maybe I spent good money on this? You know the thing.

Kathi Lipp (17:56)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Okay. So my whole life has been, I spent good money on this. I need to wear it as a punishment. One of my favorite discoveries this year is the Wirecutter show. I’ve talked to you about this before. It is the New York Times Wirecutter where they do their product recommendations and they do extensive testing. One of my favorite things that we just bought, Tonya, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (18:11)

Right.

Mmm, yes, yes.

Kathi Lipp (18:36)

My life has changed, we just got a new mattress. And which is a very expensive purchase, right? Now it’s not their most expensive purchase, which by the way, they don’t recommend because they’re not crazy, but it’s a $75,000 mattress that Martha Stewart, but their product tester did sleep on it for six months to say, is this really worth it? Just to make sure.

Tonya Kubo (18:40)

Whoa.

Yeah.

just to make sure it wasn’t worth $75,000,

I’m sure.

Kathi Lipp (19:03)

Right,

she sacrificed, she goes, if I could, I would buy it, but that’s not how I’m choosing to spend my money. So I really listened and that’s how I found out about the Costco underwear, you know, and they like to recommend, hey, if you’re a normal person, this is a decent price to spend to get this decent thing. Well, you know, I’ve owned two pairs of Bamba socks in my life and I love a Bamba sock.

Tonya Kubo (19:09)

Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:31)

But you know what, I kept on thinking I could get the same effect with these Costco brands. Now in the Costco underwear, yes, I’m getting great results. The socks, maybe it’s because I have size 11 feet, I don’t know. They’re just not the same. Can I just tell you I doubled down and I got an eight pack of Bamba socks. And I need to wear those until Jesus comes back.

Tonya Kubo (19:46)

Mm-hmm.

Go you!

Kathi Lipp (20:00)

But you know what, here’s the thing. I have bought so many pairs of socks cheaping out and they’re the ones that, you know, when I talk about rolling down my feet, Bombas has never done that to me. They’ve always treated me right. So I think if there’s a brand you love and you’re going to invest in it, then follow the directions on how to wash and dry them.

Tonya Kubo (20:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:27)

You know, figure out what’s gonna keep them the brand you love and stick with those brands you love. And if you’ve never tried a bomba sock before, I’ll give you a link, because man, they are just the best. I love them so much, yeah. And you can get a discount code too. So we’ll share those.

Tonya Kubo (20:46)

Okay, well, so we talked a little bit earlier about the weird stuff in the drawers. What’d you do with your weird stuff and how do we prevent just wedging any old thing in our underwear and socks drawer?

Kathi Lipp (20:50)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

So like what I just talked about with the bombas, you want to go to your drawer and everything in there is something that you use and you love and would buy again. The chicken footprint, maybe not. Maybe not. So do you have a place that things that are meaningful to you, but they don’t really have a place in your life?

Tonya Kubo (21:07)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:23)

So one of the things I have committed to myself to do is I’m gonna display that footprint. I’m gonna find a place in the house for it. And it doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be a big place on my wall. It could just be something that I love. Other things that I found in there. Sometimes I put things in there because I can’t decide. And if I can’t decide and I haven’t used it in this long, like I got these.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)

Like I don’t even know how to describe them. They’re like they smell good. They’re supposed to be atomizers, but I don’t really know how I don’t know. They’re weird. I have never used them. I’m just going to throw them away and it’s okay. So only keep things in there that are meant for that drawer. Do you have a box you could put things in? Like these are meaningful to me, but I don’t have a place for them right now. It’s okay to have some precious memory places in your life.

Tonya Kubo (22:03)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and you know, as we wrap up sort of this discussion on the underwear and sock drawer, you know, we’ve talked about in some cases, you’ve got like seasonality that you need to think about. I think for most of us, socks and underwear aren’t seasonal. I know for me, I do have four pairs of like really thick socks that I’ll wear with boots versus my thinner summer socks. But I think you can just honestly tuck them into the back corner of the drawer or just get a small bin if you need to. Would you do anything different?

Kathi Lipp (22:30)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Nope, you know, the only thing I do differently is I do have fall boxes that we put upstairs and sometimes I’ll put some of those things in there because I know I’m not going to need them before fall. But you know, we’ve got a weird situation here.

Tonya Kubo (23:03)

Yeah. So, okay. So this wraps up our steps that we have gone through socks and underwear drawer. I don’t think we’ve ever spent quite so much time discussing such tiny aspects of clothing, but hey, this is an important thing. I’m curious though, Kathi, socks and underwear, it feels like it can get out of hand easily. How do you keep it tidy once you’re happy with how it is?

Kathi Lipp (23:14)

Yes? Yeah.

Just keep going back to that drawer and saying, does this make me happy? And if you have kids that you’re working with them on that drawer, like are you actually wearing these things that are in the back corner? Look at the bottom of the drawer. Are the things that are never getting daylight? Not that your socks and underwear should get too much daylight. But if they’re not going through the laundry on a regular basis, it may be time to just say, you know what, we don’t need these anymore.

And that’s okay, that’s okay. That’s why I really suggest getting brands you love so that you’re not re-buying mistake after mistake, because I’ve done that. I’ve wasted a lot of money doing that instead of just buying what I love, because I want to go to that drawer and feel like everything in here is something that I’m happy to wear.

Tonya Kubo (24:16)

I love that. Okay. Absolute mic drop right there. Everything is something that you’re happy to wear. Now listeners, you want to check our show notes because we have a simple downloadable guide for transforming that old sock and underwear drawer into a tidy functional space, following the tips that Kathi shared today. And we’ve got links to all the cool stuff that she mentioned, the Bamba socks, the Costco undies. I don’t know what else, but I’m sure, the honeycomb organizer. I almost forgot about that, Kathi.

Kathi Lipp (24:43)

Yes, yes,

very important.

Tonya Kubo (24:46)

And

we cannot wait to hear from you next time. Now, Kathi, thank you so much for breaking this down, spending the amount of time that you have in helping us really make sense of this small but important to function space. Any other things you want to add before we close off?

Kathi Lipp (25:02)

Yes.

And we have all been in that broke place where we’re just happy to have any underwear. And I also want you to curate your life. I want your underwear drawer to be the least stressful part of your day. That’s my goal with this podcast.

Tonya Kubo (25:26)

I love that. I love that. Okay. Well, you have been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I am Tonya Kubo with Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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Join Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo in this episode of Clutter-Free Academy as they tackle the often overwhelming world of food storage. Whether you’re struggling with long-term pantry organization, fridge chaos, containers for on the go or finding the right containers for...

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Kathi Lipp returns with Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register to address a common challenge faced by those on the clutter-free journey: sentimental items. In this insightful episode, the trio tackles the emotional weight of inherited belongings and the guilt that often...

#670 – Emotional Decluttering: A Journey Through Sentimental Keepsakes

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#663 – Coat Closet Decluttering Secrets: A Step-by-Step Guide

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Apr 1, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#663 – Coat Closet Decluttering Secrets: A Step-by-Step Guide

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In this Clutter-Free Academy episode, Kathi Lipp teams up with her favorite clutter co-conspirator, Tonya Kubo, to address a common household nemesis: the overflowing coat closet. Perfect for those with or without a traditional coat closet, Kathi and Tonya share innovative tips and strategies to transform any space into a functional launch pad for daily success.

Listeners will discover the surprising power of matching hangers and learn how to repurpose their coat closet space with hanging bins, command hooks, and even a USB rechargeable light for those darker nooks and crannies. In addition, Kathi and Tonya delve into the emotional connections tied to clothing and how to overcome them in order to achieve a streamlined, organized coat closet.

Whether you’re tackling seasonal rotations or maintaining a tidy launch pad, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you maintain a clutter-free lifestyle all year round. Plus, be sure to check out the downloadable resource and join the conversation in our Clutter Free Academy and Clutter Free for Life communities!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps every day to live with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my favorite Clutter co-conspirator. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. okay. It’s time for us to come out of the closet on this one. Do you have a coat closet? Okay, see, easy. Your solution is here.

Tonya Kubo (00:23)

Hey, Kathi.

No.

My whole house

has two closets. That’s it.

Kathi Lipp (00:40)

I Tonya I don’t even know I can’t oh my goodness you know what you

Tonya Kubo (00:45)

It’s okay. It’s okay.

I wish I had a coat closet. Not gonna lie.

Kathi Lipp (00:51)

You’ve made your house work without a coat closet. Okay, so let’s talk about this in some generalities. We have a coat closet. I don’t know if you remember what that coat closet looks like, but it did not come with the house. It’s a built-in. So it’s very different kind of situation that doesn’t work for everybody, but it’s really helped us.

Tonya Kubo (00:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Yes!

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:20)

Can I just say our coat closet can become a catchall? And yeah, it’s not great. And so I want to talk coat closets today. I think a lot of listeners will identify this, that I have spent many years avoiding opening my coat closet, afraid that random stuff is going to fall out. But today we are going to share a game plan to fix that.

Tonya Kubo (01:49)

Oooooh! I like a good game plan even if it doesn’t apply to my specific situation.

Kathi Lipp (01:50)

Yes.

It’s a big promise, I’m not gonna lie. You know what, and if you don’t have a coat closet like Tonya, think of this maybe as what is your launch pad? What is the launch pad for getting out of the house? Because we all have to have that. So this is not going to directly impact you, but this may give you some ideas.

Tonya Kubo (02:05)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so you mentioned that your coat closet got a little scary. So why don’t you start us off with like, were the biggest challenges that you were facing before you got on top of it?

Kathi Lipp (02:29)

Okay, so can we, is there a word that’s multi-seasonality? okay, I just made, yeah, I get to make up words. I love that so much. So what the problem was is there were too many things living in that closet at the same time. You know, we had not only, granted, where we live, we need to keep some different things in our coat closet.

Tonya Kubo (02:36)

You just made it up, Kathi. That’s okay. You are an author. You are allowed to make up words as much as you want.

Hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:59)

Like a lot of our listeners do live in snow country, so they may need to keep a snow scraper in that coat closet. Most of our listeners don’t need to keep bear spray in there. But you know.

Tonya Kubo (03:08)

I was just gonna

say, but in your coat closet you have to keep bear spray and pain reliever.

Kathi Lipp (03:13)

We do.

And pain reliever, have some different drawers that we’ll talk about in a different episode. But the major coat area, you know, we were keeping our spring coats in there and, you know, that little summer jacket and the big heavy winter coat. There was just, there was a lot going on and it was just a great place to stash stuff. And yeah, it got a little…

Tonya Kubo (03:19)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:41)

It was out of control, we couldn’t find things. Things were not there when they needed to be and their coats sometimes got jammed in because we ran out of hangers. Random items on the base of it. Just, I mean, no real system, no real system.

Tonya Kubo (04:00)

Yeah, well, it sounds like it had quite the impact on just the day to day life, right? Like just it takes more time to do things when you have to like devote time to digging through.

Kathi Lipp (04:05)

Yeah.

Why do we own seven hats if we can’t find one when we need to leave the house? Like these are, yeah. Or why do we need six dog leashes if there’s never anywhere they’re supposed to be? And it wasn’t that it made me late for stuff, you know, because anywhere I’m going, it’s gonna take an hour and a half. So I left plenty of times. But we would forget stuff all the time because, you know, what was hidden was forgotten.

Tonya Kubo (04:15)

Or the right one.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So can you walk us through sort of what was the first move there?

Kathi Lipp (04:47)

Okay, so I’m not normally a big fan of this, especially for large areas, but for this coat closet, I will recommend pulling at least categories out at all at once. So things like pulling out all the coats, or maybe pulling out all the scarves, or hats, or things like that.

Tonya Kubo (04:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:15)

And then really deciding what did we actually need? Do I actually wear this coat? If not, it got donated. Donating good things, things in good condition. We didn’t have a lot of stuff that was in bad condition, but if it was rarely worn, one question was, okay, maybe I only wear this once a year. I have a fancy coat, okay? I have a.

Tonya Kubo (05:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:43)

It’s not fancy, but it’s a nice coat. got it for a business trip in Chicago. I rarely wear it. Does that need to be in the front hall closet? I consider that prime real estate. So I just decided to keep that in my bedroom closet and I could pull it out when I needed it. So it’s really curating what we needed in each category. Why do I have seven beanies?

Tonya Kubo (05:50)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:13)

I don’t know, because they were, I don’t know. Yeah, maybe somebody gave me one. Let’s be honest, they were on sale at Costco. Let’s just be honest. So there were things like that, but I don’t need all of those. So the first thing really was removing those extra coats. You asked me what the first step was, it was removing extra coats and things that just didn’t need to be there.

Tonya Kubo (06:14)

I was gonna say, why did you have seven meetings? mean, no judgment, just curious.

Right.

Okay and then what came after that do you think?

Kathi Lipp (06:45)

So that’s when we, I don’t know about you, Tonya, but there was just so much nonsense, so much nonsense. Like why were tools in there? Explain to, why? I don’t know. I think, just for now, it’s so true, it’s so true. And then why was there mail in there? Like that’s not where the mail goes.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)

Well, cause you put it there just for now until you decide where you really want it, right?

no, no, I understand. I will explain why there was mail there. Because you came inside the house and you had the mail in your hand and you had your coat on. And so you put the mail down so that you can take off your coat. But while you’re taking off your coat, another idea entered your brain. And so you pivoted around and you went to go take action on that other idea, completely forgetting.

Kathi Lipp (07:13)

Okay, please tell me.

Yes, yes, yeah.

Yes.

Go.

Tonya Kubo (07:36)

that your mail is inside the coat closet. The same thing is also what happens to your remote control. Mine’s usually in the fridge.

Kathi Lipp (07:42)

my goodness. my goodness. Okay, I’ve never done that. That’s impressive. I have to say. Ours gets lost in the bed sheets all the time. And then in the middle of the night, we’re like, why? Why did friends just pop on? Because Moose was walking across the bed. Yes. Okay, we each house has its own problems, right? Yeah. So to really decide, like each space in your house has to have its own purpose. And so I need

Tonya Kubo (07:47)

all the time.

You

No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:10)

It’s okay for me to put the mail on the front table as long as I’m putting the mail the same place each time and the coat closet is probably not it.

Tonya Kubo (08:15)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, the coat closet’s not it because a coat closet has a door. You will never see the mail again. That’s just what happens. Okay, so, you know, I hesitate to ask this question because I think some people are gonna roll their eyes and go, gee whiz, Tonya, it’s a coat closet. You can’t have emotional connections to your coats. But I happen to know that our listeners and our community members who are over in Clutterfree Academy and Clutterfree for Life struggle with emotional connections.

Kathi Lipp (08:25)

Yes, exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (08:51)

to items that other people don’t understand. So I’m curious, was there any of that as you were going through your coat closet, anything where you felt emotionally connected to having it there or where you really felt strongly about needing it to be there just in case something were to happen?

Kathi Lipp (09:08)

Okay, so not this version of the coat closet, but I will talk about the version we had at our house in San Jose and That was the army green jacket that I had in Japan and You know what? Okay, so Some of the best memories I had in my life before I married Roger Happened in that army green jacket now. I will also say

Tonya Kubo (09:15)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:37)

I did not wear that same size army green jacket for a very long, pretty much my whole first marriage and much of my second marriage, but I couldn’t get rid of it. And so what finally made me get rid of it, this is so embarrassing. I had some dog treats in it apparently, and we had a little bit of an infestation at our house. And yeah.

Tonya Kubo (09:46)

Yeah.

Hmm.

yeah, that happens.

Kathi Lipp (10:05)

And so we had to get rid of the jacket. yeah, it hung in my house without being used for years and years and years. And what I wish I would have done was give it to somebody. Because there’s some kid, some emo kid would have loved that jacket. I could have given it to Lily at some point, right? Yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (10:16)

Yeah.

Yes, yes!

You totally could have given it to Lilly. You totally could have.

Because she was definitely in an army green phase before she was in her black on black phase, which is where we’re at right now.

Kathi Lipp (10:33)

Yes, and

we all have some of those things that it’s like, okay, I’ll get back into it. Or you know what, maybe somebody will come visit me at the house and they need an army green jacket. know, like, these are all things. And when you have chaos like that, you don’t use the stuff that you have. It’s really, we stash things in there because we’re thinking we’ll deal with it later. Like you said earlier,

Tonya Kubo (10:46)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (11:01)

But today, let’s all handle that. Let’s handle our business, Tonya. Let’s, yeah, yes.

Tonya Kubo (11:05)

Yeah, let’s handle the business for the here and now as

it comes. So, okay, we’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, you are gonna talk to us about matching hangers. I’m very curious about hearing more of this. Hanging bins and more. All right, so we’ll see you after the break.

Kathi Lipp (11:18)

Yes, okay. Yes, yes.

Tonya Kubo (11:26)

All right, well, welcome back. So Kathi, I can’t remember if I heard this on a Facebook live you did or if it was something you did in our membership community, but I have heard you in the past say that matching hangers can transform the look of any space that has hangers instantly. I need you to tell me more about

Kathi Lipp (11:34)

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so you said in our last podcast episode that you think every space in our house could potentially be one that brings us joy when we go there. And can I tell you one of the cheat codes to joy is matching hangers. And here’s what I love about that. And it doesn’t have to be expensive hangers. I will tell you for my personal closet upstairs, I have those thin black.

Tonya Kubo (11:57)

Mm-hmm.

I believe that.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:16)

Velvet hangers the joy hangers Roger hates those with a fiery passion Okay, is it because they are Superman and they feel like they have to get dressed very quickly and the velvet slows them down Is it a textural issue? What is it for these guys? Okay, I Like them like that. Yes. Yes in our one of our guest rooms. We have matching

Tonya Kubo (12:17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian feels the same way. I love mine.

Brian says they’re too thin. That’s why I like them. I like them because they’re so thin.

Kathi Lipp (12:43)

red plastic hangers. They’re not fancy, but they get the job done. But in my coat closet, we have, and I’ve got a link to them. They’re just wood hangers. They’re not crazy expensive, but they look so nice. And here’s a couple of reasons why I like them. One, the hangers go back to the closet they’re supposed to go to. Can I say that again? The hangers go back to the closet they’re supposed to.

Tonya Kubo (12:44)

Mm-hmm.

you

Kathi Lipp (13:12)

So Roger doesn’t have wood hangers hanging out in his closet. I don’t have white plastic hangers from his closet hanging out in mine. And it curates your closet. If you have 12 hangers in your closet, maybe that’s eight for your coats and then four for guests. That’s plenty. That’s what we need. And there are only two people living in my house. Your house, but it also makes it look put together. It’s a very simple way.

Tonya Kubo (13:31)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (13:41)

for it to visually come together very, very quickly. I love them. And it prevents coat pileups, know, those hangers that, you know, they just make me want to keep the space looking good.

Tonya Kubo (13:54)

Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Well, and especially, like I can even see an application just household wide if everybody had their own like designated hanger, then you’re putting laundry away. It’s very easy to pick out whose stuff is whose. So I really like that idea. So, okay. So, but there’s some things I think that go in coat closets. I say I think because I currently don’t have one, but I used to have one.

Kathi Lipp (14:03)

Yeah. Right.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yes. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:18)

that don’t go on hangers, hats,

gloves, grocery bags. I mean, it depends on what you do, right? What do you do about that stuff?

Kathi Lipp (14:23)

Yeah.

Yes. Okay,

I’m gonna give you the best solution. I got these hanging baskets. They’re three tiers of hanging baskets. They hook on just like a hanger. So it’s got two hooks and it takes up a little bit of space, but we have one for gloves. We have one for scarves. We’ve got one for those grocery bags. I want you to think about it like this.

Tonya Kubo (14:37)

Okay?

Kathi Lipp (14:51)

What do I need to launch when I go out of the house? And if I open that coat closet, mine has two doors. That’s why if you’re watching the video here on YouTube, you will see me opening with two doors. But if you have those spaces, you can just open up and say, here’s everything I need to leave the house. And so having those hanging bins,

Tonya Kubo (14:57)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:17)

gives you things like, we have one for all of our moose supplies, know, so those, you know, poop bags and leashes and collars and things like that, reusable bags, bear spray, like there’s a space for everything. So nothing is on the bottom floor of that coat closet that you don’t want to be there.

Tonya Kubo (15:21)

Mm-hmm.

Great, okay, so you are always so good. This is the problem when we reverse roles is Kathi, you are always so good at counting us out and I have not been counting us out. So when it comes to decluttering the coat closet, so step one was you got rid of the coats you no longer wear. Step two was you don’t advocate this normally, but in the case of a small space like a coat closet, pulling everything out that doesn’t belong and then going through it and only putting the stuff back that makes sense. And then.

Kathi Lipp (15:50)

Yeah, that’s okay.

Yes.

Right. Right.

Tonya Kubo (16:09)

For step three, we talked about the matching hangers and just how that just feels good to look at. And then step four is hanging bins for the small items, the hats, the gloves, the grocery bags, bear spray in your case. All right, take me to step five.

Kathi Lipp (16:13)

Mm-hmm.

It feels great.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so we like to have in our coat closet our car keys wallets purses and Yeah, we’re putting a lot in that coat closet so I want to be able to see what I have and we we introduced the USB rechargeable light that you can put in by a magnet This is another great place for it if your coat closet doesn’t already have a light

Tonya Kubo (16:44)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:58)

Or maybe your coat closet is in a hall where there’s a light outside the hall, but there’s not one inside. May I highly suggest, and we’ll put it again in the show notes, this USB light that is just installed with a magnet. You don’t need to rewire anything. It will give you, you can see into every nook and cranny. But the other magical thing in here, the thing I cannot live without, command hooks. I love.

Tonya Kubo (17:24)

yes, we like those at our house

too.

Kathi Lipp (17:26)

Yes,

I love a good command hook. So I use a command hook. I personally, I do have a bunch of different purses for different activities. I like a good handbag, but my wallet is on a loop. And so I can just hang my wallet on a command hook. We can hang all of our keys on a command hook. You can also put, if you want to do,

Tonya Kubo (17:36)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:54)

like your grocery shopping bags. If you don’t wanna put them into one of those hanging bins, you could put those on a command hook. You can use those for a million different things and they just make your life so, so much better. Dog leash, other small items, you use accordingly.

Tonya Kubo (18:02)

Mmm.

Yeah, and so with the command hooks, you and we’ll link to those in the show notes as well. Those are nice because they attach with adhesive in most cases. And so you don’t have to worry about making holes anywhere or like, I don’t know, but if I have to put a screw or a nail in something suddenly that feels like home improvement and I’m not all about that life.

Kathi Lipp (18:23)

Yes.

Yes, right.

It’s a different level. What we’re talking about here, everything that we’ve shared about is A level. Or is it D, you know, is it F level? Let’s say it’s F level and A level is redoing your bathroom. No, we’re talking about stickers and hooks. That’s what we’re talking about here. Magnets, yes.

Tonya Kubo (18:37)

Yeah.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and so Kathi, you are the person who taught me about seasonal stuff, right? Because I grew up in a studio apartment with my mom, I’m used to everything being in one space all at the same time. But the last episode, we were talking a little bit about seasonal stuff, and we’re talking about seasonal stuff now with the coat closet especially. How do you rotate things or do you?

Kathi Lipp (19:05)

Right.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

And, Tonya, let’s also say you grew up in central California, where the seasons are not quite as different as they are in Minnesota. Right, exactly. And broiling hot, yes. So, yes, but living up here, I have definitely learned about seasonality. And so we just have a little space in our garage for out of season. So the same bin is either

Tonya Kubo (19:28)

Cold, not cold. That’s all we got.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:49)

summer or winter right now because we’re recording this in February, it’s going out in March. We have all of our bug spray, our sunscreen, all of that kind of stuff out in our garage in a bin and inside we have our scarves, our gloves, our ice scraper, that kind of thing. So think of your coat closet or your launch pad, whatever it is.

Tonya Kubo (20:11)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:16)

as one of the most valuable pieces of real estate in your house. And when you redo this, keep everything out of there that you are not potentially going to use in the next week or so. So like right now, I don’t have my summer jacket hanging in there. Yeah, and so just what I could open up and say, you know what? I have a purpose for almost everything in here in the next couple of weeks.

Tonya Kubo (20:30)

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, one more question, Kathi. What about the floor? Because I know some people have a strict, like, nothing goes on the floor rule in a closet. I know that you happen to be a space maximizer, so I have a feeling that you’ve got some solutions there.

Kathi Lipp (20:47)

Yes. Yeah.

Right.

Guess.

So here’s what I would say with that is that, you know, if I leave room for things like when my kids had backpacks for school, or if you have a folding grocery cart, if you live in a really urban area, you probably have a folding grocery cart that needs to go somewhere. Or do you have a bag of library books that need to be returned? You know, what?

Tonya Kubo (21:12)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:30)

whatever I grab on my way out, I also, if I was going to work every day, I might have my computer backpack there. Right now, those things are probably existing in your living space because on the floor of your coat closet is nonsense because that’s what was on the floor of my coat closet. So, you know,

Tonya Kubo (21:39)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)

So what I personally have on the floor of my coat closet, and my coat closet isn’t like a full length thing, it’s a half length thing, but I have cooler bags because when we go to town, I’m going to use a Costco cooler, at least in the winter, to put in my fresh meat and stuff. In the summer, we’re bringing our Yeti. Like that’s a different thing. But…

Tonya Kubo (22:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (22:23)

What do you actually use and need to be there? It should not be long-term storage for things you don’t touch all year. It’s things that you actually use. And if your kids could put their backpacks there, if you could put your work backpack there, I think that’s a great use of space.

Tonya Kubo (22:30)

Yeah.

Okay, and so now we get to the part where we’ve got to talk about the nemesis of all of our cluttery peeps. We’ve got the coat closet all beautifully decluttered, organized. How do we keep it from getting junked up again?

Kathi Lipp (22:45)

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah, so when you bring new items in, remove something old. You know, the one in, one out. You know, when you think about coats, we probably don’t need 40, okay? Roger and I both need a nice coat. Think church or going out to dinner. An everyday winter coat, an everyday lighter coat, and a raincoat. If I get a new coat, I get rid of an old one.

Tonya Kubo (23:11)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:23)

Now, you may have more coat needs, that’s okay. But do you have 20 coat needs? And do they all need to be in that coat closet space? What if you picked the three or four coats that you use most of the time and use that? And then also, as you’re changing things over from winter to summer, just clear it out.

Tonya Kubo (23:24)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (23:52)

Do I need to get rid of more coats? Do I need to get rid of some of these scarves? The other thing is, do you need seven scarves? Do you need 12 beanies? Do you need all of those mittens and gloves? Think about what do you actually use and what do you actually need? That’s the maintenance you need to do. And can I tell you, once you get this set up, your maintenance is gonna be so minimal. It’s gonna take five minutes.

Tonya Kubo (24:18)

Well, I was gonna say like maximum would be about 20 minutes a week, right? Like five minutes a day. If you can just do a quick swipe through, especially during the times of year where your coat closet is in more heavy use.

Kathi Lipp (24:22)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Right, absolutely.

Tonya Kubo (24:33)

my goodness, Kathi, thank you so much. These have been great tips. I especially appreciate all the resources that we’re going to have available in the show notes, mainly because that’s how I access them after the episodes as well. Like I probably use our website more often than anybody else around here. Any final thoughts, encouragement, tips that you would give to our listeners?

Kathi Lipp (24:40)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

I love it.

How do you want to start your day? If your coat closet could be your launch pad to say, this is where my keys are. This is where, maybe you keep your lunch bag there after work or something like that. But how do I want to approach my day each day? Do I want to be able to find things in there easily? Do I want to be able to know where my coat is?

I think the reason that we don’t use our coat closets so much is because they’re filled with nonsense. At least that’s why I wasn’t using it. Instead of thinking, you know what, this is a tucked away space for things that I use every single day. Your space should be stuff that you use at least five out of seven days a week. So if you think about it that way, it’s really going to curate what belongs in that space and what doesn’t.

Tonya Kubo (25:28)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

beautiful tips. So we’re gonna curate what belongs in the space and what doesn’t. And we’re doing that by, just to summarize the steps, removing the unwanted coats, unwanted stuff that’s extra in that space. We’re gonna pull out the items that don’t belong, get matching hangers. You’ll thank us later, cause they’re beautiful. Hanging bins are ideal for those things that don’t hang. And then of course, command hooks, get that rechargeable light. I don’t know about you, but I’m running out to get one today.

Kathi Lipp (26:05)

Mm-hmm.

They’re so great.

Tonya Kubo (26:16)

and

rotate things seasonally. Not everything needs to live in the same space, same time all year long. Now, I believe we’re going to have a download available with all these tips in our show notes, right? You’re so excited. This was all Kathi’s idea, guys. I would never think of this, so just know that. Kathi thought of this because she knows you well. And we want to hear, so we want you to download that resource from our show notes, but then we want to hear from you over in the free Facebook group and you can find

Kathi Lipp (26:22)

Mm.

We are! Yes!

Tonya Kubo (26:44)

all the links, all the information in the show notes. Kathi, thank you for letting me interview you. This has been so much fun.

Kathi Lipp (26:51)

my goodness.

You know what? And I love doing this because it inspires me in these spaces and I need the inspiration just like everybody else.

Tonya Kubo (27:00)

Oh, I feel the same way. listeners, I just want to say thank you for hanging out with us for this 25 minutes or so. You have been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Tonya Kubo with Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#672 – From Pantry to Plate: The Secret to Smart Food Storage

Jun 3, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Foodie Friday, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

Join Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo in this episode of Clutter-Free Academy as they tackle the often overwhelming world of food storage. Whether you’re struggling with long-term pantry organization, fridge chaos, containers for on the go or finding the right containers for...

#671 – Sentimental Clutter: Finding Freedom in Letting Go

May 27, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Relationships

Kathi Lipp returns with Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register to address a common challenge faced by those on the clutter-free journey: sentimental items. In this insightful episode, the trio tackles the emotional weight of inherited belongings and the guilt that often...

#670 – Emotional Decluttering: A Journey Through Sentimental Keepsakes

May 20, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp is joined by clutter experts Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register for the second part of their heartfelt discussion on sentimental items. Discover the emotions that often lead us to hold onto things we neither love nor...

#662 – How I Organized My Pots & Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 25, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas | 0 comments

#662 – How I Organized My Pots & Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into one of the most dreaded and clutter-prone areas of the home: the kitchen cupboards. Whether you’re struggling with chaos in your pots and pans cabinet or just need some fresh organization inspiration, this episode offers practical tips and clever solutions to transform your kitchen into a space that brings you joy.

From discussing the dreaded corner cabinets to lighting solutions that bring a smile every time you open the door, Kathi and Tonya walk you through realistic steps to declutter and organize. They share insights on dealing with duplicates, utilizing vertical storage, and even creatively using AI to find innovative products that simplify your life. Along the way, you’ll get a dose of laughter and encouragement to tackle your kitchen stress points one cupboard at a time.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

FYI: Some product links are affiliate links. If you buy, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for your support!

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:06)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutterfree Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And today we’re going to get as practical as you can get. We’re going to be as intentional and you know I like the word prescriptive but Tonya can we just call it what it is, it’s bossy right?

Tonya Kubo (00:31)
Hey, I love to be bossed around. And I think our listeners do too.

Kathi Lipp (00:33)
Right?

Yes. Well, you know, in our paid group, we have an opportunity, at least this year, where you and I got on calls with people for 15 minutes and really what they want. First of all, they want to just unburden on somebody that knows that they’re not going to be judged by. But the other thing is they want to be bossed around. yeah, and I love that for us. And so

Tonya Kubo (00:58)
yeah.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
Today we’re gonna get down into the nitty gritty. We’re talking about the dreaded kitchen cupboard. And let me just tell you the worst one of all is where the pots and pans live. Is that a sore spot for you or have you got that all figured out?

Tonya Kubo (01:19)
Well, I wouldn’t say I have it all figured out, but mine hang. So they don’t get like they do for some people, right? Where they’re like piling. So my issue is actually the lids because the lids don’t hang. So I have the lids like stacked on the shelf and then sometimes they fall on my head.

Kathi Lipp (01:23)
interesting.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I could

see where that would happen. Well, we’ve got approximately 20 minutes that we are and we’ve got a little commercial break, but otherwise all we’re going to be doing is talking about pots and pans because here’s the thing friends. It’s the little things right and we want you to take those little spaces that can be a little annoying can be a little frustrating and let’s let’s tackle them. Okay, we’re going to tackle them together Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (02:07)
Alrighty, sounds good. So, Kathi if you don’t mind, I’m gonna reverse our roles here a bit, because I am curious about, I guess what I wanna start off with is, because I’ve been to your house, but most of our listeners haven’t, I want you to describe what was the pots and pans cupboard like before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so, you know, as we’ve talked about many times before, you come to my house and you don’t see a ton of clutter. But I will always be a cluttery girl at heart. That’s my deep, that’s my, that’s my truth. That is my truth. And that pots and pan cupboard, you know, when we moved in, of course I organized it. I did everything I could, but it’s just, if, if nobody lived there, it would stay so much more organized. But sadly, you know, I’m a cook.

Tonya Kubo (02:38)
Mm-hmm.

That is your truth.

Kathi Lipp (03:01)
I like to cook and I’m very fortunate that Roger puts dishes away, but it was always a pain. It was because it’s low. It’s a corner cupboard. And so you kind of have to dig back in there. And if you really want some stuff that’s all the way in the back, holy cow. And so a lot of things got shoved and I am a collector at heart. So there were things like

Tonya Kubo (03:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
weird cake pans and different kinds of muffin tins and three of my favorite kind of saucepan, things like that. So it just felt like, okay, once I could get those pans out of there, I could get to cooking. But there was always that kind of burden in there.

Tonya Kubo (03:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and so your corner cabinet, because I’ve been to your house, I think one of the issues, and I think a lot of people have this issue too, is that the opening to the cabinet is actually much more narrow than the cabinet. It’s like the Harry Potter closet, right? It’s like you open it up and it’s like, hey, there’s a whole room in here. So I’m just curious, did you find that when you had people over, because you entertain a lot, did their way of putting…

Kathi Lipp (04:06)
Yes, yes. Right, absolutely. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:23)
things away kind of add to the challenge. It’s not that we’re upset that anybody would come over and put your dishes away because we know that that’s a gift. That’s a blessing. But I’m just curious if yes, you and Roger maybe had some difficulty, but maybe some guests possibly added to the difficulty.

Kathi Lipp (04:29)
Never. Yes. Yes.

Well,

I think some people don’t want to see things. They’re like, if it’s hidden, it’s not clutter. So they might put a pot or something into a deep stock pot. And I might not see that for four months. other problem is that it’s like a cave, right? And I didn’t want, I know that there are some fancy people out there who is like,

Tonya Kubo (04:43)
Mmm. Got it.

Keep right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:07)
I had somebody come rewire my cabinets. I don’t have rewire my cabinets kind of money. That’s just not something I’m choosing to spend money on at this time. So there were a lot of different, you know, it was overcrowded. You couldn’t reach certain pots. I would actually have to call Roger from upstairs to grab some of those things. You know, there were duplicate, it was just a mess.

Tonya Kubo (05:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I’m imagining part of it is also your arms aren’t long enough to get to the back, right? I mean, mine, I know mine aren’t long enough to get to the back of your cabinet.

Kathi Lipp (05:35)
Right, I…

I am the T-Rex of human beings. I have the shortest arms in the world. And you you mentioned lids. Lids are a real issue. And so, you know, we just had to deal with all that kind of stuff. I’m making it sound worse than it is. I’m compiling like three years of frustration into a, in three minutes. But I think there are other people who have felt this frustration.

Tonya Kubo (05:41)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Well, but I don’t really feel like you’re making a bigger deal out of it than it is because to your point, I think everybody has these frustrations regardless of what the physical space looks like. I think all of us have some cabinet and oftentimes it’s our pots and pads cabinet where our arms aren’t long enough to get to the back. All of us have an issue with nesting like smaller items inside of larger items but then the largest item being so deep that you can’t see what’s inside.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:33)
Like, so I do think I appreciate the fact that you spent three minutes on this because I think you’ve listed all the pain points that our listeners are most likely to experience with our pots and pans. So now it’s the big question, Kathi, because this is the question that plagues everybody in our community. It’s what was your first move?

Kathi Lipp (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

So I finally had to admit to myself those little cake tins that were shaped like flowers. The one that was shaped like Thomas the Tank Engine. Those specialty things, dude, I’m just not that special. I’m just not. And I might imagine someday in the future when I have grandkids that they would want that train pan.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:17)
But you know, we have to come to the realization what our grandkids want is rarely what our kids wanted. And by the way, I don’t have anybody who is planning on having children in my family. So what was I holding on to those things for? And then, you know, there was so much someday in there is that, you know, I’ve realized keeping something that you use once a decade.

Tonya Kubo (07:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
isn’t worth losing daily cupboard space.

Tonya Kubo (07:49)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
It’s just not. It’s, you know, it’s so many of it would be more worth it to me to go to Michael’s, buy the cake pan, use it and immediately donate it. That would be a better use of my time, space, money and energy than keeping a cake pan I use once every 10 years. So I had to go through that cabinet and say,

Tonya Kubo (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)
If I’m not using this, why? So one of the things I did immediately, like one of the cake pans, I have a popover pan and I probably haven’t used that in a decade. And I’m like, I’m not willing to get rid of this. So I had to be willing to use it. So I made popovers, they were terrible. I’m going to make them again. I’m going to do it until I get it right. But if you’re going to hang on to something you haven’t used before.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)
Hmm.

haha

Kathi Lipp (08:47)
Are you imagining a life that you want to someday have or can you just use it right now? Say, I’m gonna try it and I’m gonna use it. if you’re willing to use it right away, I say keep it. If you’re not willing to use it right away, it’s probably time to get rid of it.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Yeah, well, and what I like about that perspective is it falls completely in line with our principle about negotiating space. I mean, there’s only so much real estate in a home and there’s only so much real estate that you can afford to designate for your pots and pans, right? Because there’s a whole lot more that goes into a kitchen. So those specialty pans, like they sound like the easiest decision to make, the best starting.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Right. Yes, yes.

Exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
But after that, it feels to me like everything else would be equal priority. So where did you go from there?

Kathi Lipp (09:38)
Hmm

Duplicates okay, so Tonya I fancy myself a cook. I know I know I know

Tonya Kubo (09:42)
no. Don’t pick

on my four muffin tins, Kathi Lip. Do not pick on my four muffin tins.

Kathi Lipp (09:47)
Okay, okay, can I just say though if

if you like me Use your four muffin tins at the same time Then you get to keep those muffin tins like I often will do a big batch of muffins and I will use both tins at the same time to bake a bunch of things at the same time and I also have big muffin tins

Tonya Kubo (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:17)
I also have teeny tiny muffin tins. And by the way, I use all of those. So I have two regular muffin tins, one big and one teeny tiny, and I use all of them. So you know what? I kept all of them. I’m about as close to a, I don’t want to say a professional cook, because that doesn’t describe me. But I did write a cookbook and I had to use these things. But how many times did I use the same size

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:47)
I do have some fry pans that are slightly larger, some that are slightly smaller, and those were perfectly good. So I gave away some of my duplicate, you know, the pan that you’re like, okay, if the apocalypse happens and I need it, that pan is there. Well, the apocalypse doesn’t happen, but you know what, COVID did, and I never used that pan, so it was time to get rid of it. So, at,

Tonya Kubo (10:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Got it, okay.

Kathi Lipp (11:14)
Ask yourself if you really need three stockpots. If not, donate or sell or buy nothing group or something like that. And I’m pointing at me because I have two, here’s the thing, I wrote a book about soup. I kept too many stockpots. It’s time to, because I have slow cookers. I have other big pots. I don’t need, is it two or three stockpots? I don’t know, but you know what? Yeah, sometimes you have to do this in layers. There’s layers.

Tonya Kubo (11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And the muffin tins thing, that was a big argument I had with my best friend, Amber, if you’re listening, this is about you. Because I had four muffin tins and she was just like, you only need one. And I’m like, no, because I oftentimes will make two dozen muffins, two dozen cupcakes. And she was like, yes. So you bake them in one, you empty those out to cool and then you do the other. And I’m like, you obviously do not understand my workflow in the kitchen.

Kathi Lipp (11:50)
Hahaha!

Yes.

No,

Tonya Kubo (12:11)
I do not want to wait for the muffins to cool, to take them out, to then

Kathi Lipp (12:12)
no. Right, right.

Tonya Kubo (12:15)
refill them. That feels like dead time. So thank you for validating my four muffin tins. That’s really what this is about. This is validating me in a 20 year old argument. Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (12:18)
And Kim.

Yes. And

Tonya, also, what’s the storage harm in those muffin tins? Because they nest right into each other. So I’m giving you a cupcake pass.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)
right. That is true.

Yes, I get the cupcake pass. I’m so excited. Okay, so we’ve removed our specialty pans that we’re not using and we’re not willing to use. We have gotten rid of our duplicates. What’s next?

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

So I just think getting rid, when you get rid of those duplicates, I want you to think about who can I give these to? Sometimes our first thing is who can I sell these to? I don’t think, I think oftentimes if maybe we’re a little bit more on the side, this side of 40 years old than we are on that side of 40 years old. And to think through, you know,

Do I really need the money for this or could I help somebody like people helped me when I was first starting out? You know that extra muffin tin. So could you use that it organizes your space and then you act, you know, we can bless someone else by passing on items we don’t actually use because that may become their favorite muffin tin.

Tonya Kubo (13:42)
that totally makes sense. Okay, well, we’re gonna have to pay some bills, take a break. But when we come back, dear listener, do not leave us because now that we’ve talked about how we’ve minimized the pots and pans area, we’re gonna talk about organizing.

All right, so we are back and we are going to hear from Kathi. Kathi, you are going to talk to us about how you organized your pots and pans after you decluttered all the excess that you didn’t need.

Kathi Lipp (14:11)
Right. Okay, so one of the first things I did was I installed lighting. Now, like I said, this sounds like a rich person solution, right?

Tonya Kubo (14:21)
I

was gonna say I need more info on this Kathi. Yeah?

Kathi Lipp (14:24)
Okay, Tonya, this may be

my favorite discovery so far of 2020. This may encompass 2024 and 2025. So I just did an AI search. How do I get lighting into my cupboard without rewiring things? And there is, and I’ll link it in the show notes, okay? You install a magnet on top of your cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (14:43)
Okay.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (14:53)
All right, and this magnet is the other side of the magnet of a light bar. Okay, it’s a light bar. So you can pull this light bar out, but it just slaps up there with a magnet. And you can recharge this light bar on a USB charger. So the same thing that you use to charge your cell phone, you can use this to recharge that bar. And here’s the beautiful thing, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (15:03)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:23)
it is motion activated. So.

Tonya Kubo (15:26)
So

you don’t have to worry about leaving it on.

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Right, it’s not a flip on flip off. It is when I open the cupboard, it flips on and when I close the cupboard, it turns off. And we’ve had this for about three months now and have not had to recharge it yet.

Tonya Kubo (15:44)
that is so nice because we have tap lights in our deep cabinets, but the problem is as they get left on and then they overheat.

Kathi Lipp (15:47)
Yes, yeah, right.

we don’t want that.

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
No, you do not want overheating. No, that’s a bad idea. So this with the motion activate. my gosh, this is brilliant. How’d you find him, Kathi? AI. It was AI.

Kathi Lipp (15:56)
No.

I just, AI, I just said, here’s the

problem, here’s the problem. And it said, have you tried this? I’m like, why no, I haven’t tried that. So I will link those. You can get them on Amazon. You can get them at Lowe’s. You can get them anywhere. They’re one, they are life-changing. Can I tell you, nothing makes me smile more these days than opening that cabinet and the light coming on after six years of it being a cave.

Tonya Kubo (16:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, well, that would make me smile. I’m going to smile the next time I’m at your house and I get to use it. If you find me in your kitchen just opening and closing the cabinet, you’ll know what I’m doing now.

Kathi Lipp (16:33)
Yes.

Yes. Yes.

I would

not blame you at all. I would not blame you at all.

Tonya Kubo (16:45)
Okay, so that has to be like the highlight of this episode for me personally, but there is more to the pots and pans area in a kitchen than just that. What are you doing it with bakeware?

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
Yeah, yes. Yes.

Yeah, so let’s talk about the infamous muffin tins and like little cookie sheets and things like that. got, and guys, we’re gonna link all of this in the podcast notes so you can go and check out exactly what we’re talking. Cause isn’t a podcast the best place to display storage organization, right? know, my audio is our best forms, yes. But we will put it in the show notes. This is just a wire wrap.

Tonya Kubo (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Why yes, yes it is. Show notes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)
that

is, it’s a little bit wider than like what you would use to organize papers. But I just have it all standing up and it’s easy to grab. And you can see what you have. So it’s just a simple wire organizer. But the main thing is you have to declutter what you’re not using because if you’re still are trying to organize chaos, it’s never going to happen.

Tonya Kubo (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:50)
But if you’re organizing what you actually use, it’s gonna be beautiful.

Tonya Kubo (17:55)
Yeah, well, and I like that idea because, with cookie sheets or baking sheets, I guess we call them because we don’t just put cookies on them. Muffin tins and such. Stacking them flat just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Kathi Lipp (18:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

It doesn’t

work, it doesn’t work. And this simple thing just saves me so much time and rummaging around. I’m no longer banging things around. I hate being frustrated. I hate being frustrated in the kitchen and this has solved a lot of that frustration.

Tonya Kubo (18:14)
Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, okay, so before we run out of time, you mentioned earlier about having a lids solution. Talk to me about pots, lids, all that good stuff.

Kathi Lipp (18:29)
Yeah.

Well, okay,

so this, after the light situation, this may be my favorite thing. This is, it’s hard to describe. It’s like a tower that is, has separate shelves that you can store your pots, your pans, and your lids on. Now, a lid solution for you, Tonya, because you don’t store your pots and pans like that, could just be that wire rack we talked about.

Tonya Kubo (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that’s

what I was thinking about. I was like, some people are gonna get that for baking sheets. I might be getting that for my lids.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yes.

Yes,

absolutely, absolutely. But this one, the one that I got, it just has different shelves jutting out from it. And I have got it all set up for my fry pans and things like that. And I just bought one for my pots, because I wanted to buy one to see, does this actually work for me? And Roger and I, who have very different organizational styles,

Tonya Kubo (19:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:33)
Like everything we’ve talked about here so far has worked for both of us. yeah, so that’s, talk about miracles. But it keeps your pots upright. You’re not scratching your pots and pans by stacking them inside. And let’s be honest, pots don’t stack nicely, you know, with the handles and stuff. So it makes it so much easier. The one thing I’m going to tell you though is before you order, measure.

Tonya Kubo (19:38)
nice.

They don’t. No.

Kathi Lipp (20:03)
You know, well, here’s the thing. When I went on Amazon to order this, it said it had a satisfaction ranking of like 4.7, but it said this is an often returned item. I’m like, well, if people are so satisfied, why are they returning it? Because it didn’t fit in their cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (20:05)
This sounds like the voice of experience.

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (20:30)
That

was my own sleuthing. So finally I’m getting smart. I’ve got one thing I bought for everybody at Christmas in 2023 were these mini measuring tapes. They look like dull measuring tapes, but they go out, I think either two or three feet and I keep one in my kitchen. And before I order something, I make sure that I can measure that space. And it makes such a difference.

Tonya Kubo (20:38)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

cool. Can we put that in the show notes too, Kathi? Okay. Measuring tape. I put Barbie measuring tape on my notes because I’ll know what that means. Okay. So let me recap really quickly because we are out of time, but you’re so you minimize by getting rid of the specialty items. You got rid of the duplicates and then your three tips in terms of organizing what was left is you got a light.

Kathi Lipp (21:02)
Yes, I will make a note to do that.

Yes, exactly, perfect. Yes, exactly.

guess.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)
that is rechargeable does not involve rewiring anything nor the investment that it would take for electrical systems like that. You got a bakeware rack so that you can vertically stack your cookie sheets, your muffin tins. Then you got a pot organizer, which I think the pot organizer is my favorite idea too, even though it doesn’t apply to my situation because I have had to get rid of really nice pots because they scratched.

Kathi Lipp (21:29)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

right, exactly.

Tonya Kubo (21:55)
They were too scratched up and I love

the idea of storing them in a way that keeps them protected like that. Is there anything else you would add for us today?

Kathi Lipp (22:01)
Yeah.

say that if you think you need everything that you have but there are some things that are iffy could you put those things into a storage container for like three months and see if you actually use them and if you’re not using them then that’s your sign to say it’s okay to give them away and also another thing to think about is

Tonya Kubo (22:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:35)
there are some libraries that will let you check out cake pans. So if cake pans are something that you are interested in, I love libraries these days. It’s not just about books anymore. You could go check out a Thomas the Tankin, or let’s be clear, let’s bring it for 2025, a bluey cake pan, right? That’s right. And so you could check that out.

Tonya Kubo (22:48)
I love libraries too.

Bluey cake pan baby.

Kathi Lipp (23:05)
and not have to store it in your house, which I think those are two tips about keeping some of that chaos out of your house. That’ll make it much easier. And by the way, Tonya, this is gonna be so much easier to clean. And you know, it’s.

Tonya Kubo (23:17)
What I was gonna

ask, like now that it is all organized, I think one of the issues I see from listeners who write in is keeping it that way. And so, you you brought up some good points is you’re not gonna restock with specialty cake pans if you can check your local library first. It’s easier to clean. Any recommendations when it comes to cleaning?

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yes.

I love a good handi-vac, I’m not gonna lie. That’s my favorite thing to do. And then if you are, I just, let’s keep it simple, just a rag. And I love the Method grapefruit. Have you ever smelled that? You may have smelled it at my house, yeah. Or somebody, yeah, I don’t like the taste of grapefruit, but the smell makes me so happy. And.

Tonya Kubo (23:42)
Okay. I love a good handiwork too.

Mmm, I do. I like a good grapefruit smell.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:05)
I don’t have to do it very often because we’re not putting dirty things in there, but you know, every once in a while, but just that handy vac going around there, guys, I want you to smile when you go to your pots and pans. And I didn’t know that was a space that could make me smile, but it really does.

Tonya Kubo (24:23)
my gosh, well hey, I think every part of your house, like you deserve for every part of your house to make you smile. And so what I would love to do is I would love to invite our listeners to join us in our Facebook group. That’s Kathi with an I dot link slash CFA. And I want to see their before and after transformations of their pots and pans cabinets. And of course, if there’s any questions that they might have. Anything else you want to add before we sign off, Kathi?

Kathi Lipp (24:29)
Hmm. Yes.

Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, we have this great download just step by steps and steps of how to you know Obviously my thought is listen to this podcast episode on repeat as you’re doing this because you’ll feel encouraged But we also have a download that you can go and get the step-by-steps to clean out that cupboard Yeah, all of that, but look at our show notes to go check out those Amazon links I think those will really encourage you and it’s going to provide solutions

Tonya Kubo (25:02)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:19)
for like, can’t I keep this organized? We got you, we got you.

Tonya Kubo (25:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. So check the show notes for the Amazon links, check the show notes for a link to the Facebook group and check the show notes for the download. That I think is especially important.

Kathi Lipp (25:35)
Perfect.

See you.

Tonya Kubo (25:43)
I don’t have the script for the close.

Kathi Lipp (25:45)
I’m

sorry, my bad. Well, friends, we, Tonya and I hope that we’ve given you some ideas and some encouragements to do that corner of your house that, you know, has maybe been driving you crazy, but there are solutions and we wanna take all of those hurdles out of the way when it comes to getting dinner on the table and this is a great place to start. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now.

Go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#672 – From Pantry to Plate: The Secret to Smart Food Storage

Jun 3, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Foodie Friday, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

Join Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo in this episode of Clutter-Free Academy as they tackle the often overwhelming world of food storage. Whether you’re struggling with long-term pantry organization, fridge chaos, containers for on the go or finding the right containers for...

#671 – Sentimental Clutter: Finding Freedom in Letting Go

May 27, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, Relationships

Kathi Lipp returns with Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register to address a common challenge faced by those on the clutter-free journey: sentimental items. In this insightful episode, the trio tackles the emotional weight of inherited belongings and the guilt that often...

#670 – Emotional Decluttering: A Journey Through Sentimental Keepsakes

May 20, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp is joined by clutter experts Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register for the second part of their heartfelt discussion on sentimental items. Discover the emotions that often lead us to hold onto things we neither love nor...

#656 When Opposites Attract: Managing Different Clutter Levels in Marriage

by Roger Lipp | Feb 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Marriage, Organizing, Podcast, Relationships | 0 comments

#656 When Opposites Attract: Managing Different Clutter Levels in Marriage

Listen Now

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Arlene Pellicane to discuss the delicate balance of managing different organizational styles within marriage. If you’re struggling with a spouse who has different standards of tidiness, this episode offers practical wisdom and hope.

Arlene shares four key marriage decisions that can transform your relationship, with special focus on how managing “stuff” impacts marital harmony. You’ll discover how to have productive conversations about organization without creating winners and losers in your marriage.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Making Marriage Easier

Arlene Pellicane

Clutter Free Resources:

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Meet Our Guest

Arlene Pellican

Arlene Pellicane is a speaker, author, and host of the Happy Home podcast, dedicated to helping families thrive in today’s digital age. Her books have been translated into more than ten languages, and she has appeared on numerous media outlets including the Today Show, Fox & Friends, and The 700 Club. As the spokesperson for National Marriage Week and a former features reporter, Arlene brings her expertise to audiences nationwide through keynotes and workshops for businesses, schools, churches, and ministries. She holds degrees from Biola University and Regent University, and lives in San Diego with her husband James of more than 25 years, their three children, and their Goldendoodle, Winston.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:00)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And guys, we have a very special episode. It sounds like we’re doing an after-school special, but it is a very special episode of Clutter-Free Academy. You see, because, you know, it’s the stuff.

but oftentimes when we are struggling with this stuff, it’s not about the stuff. It’s about what the stuff represents. It’s about the relationships around the stuff. And today we’re gonna get a little help with that. This is my dear long, long friend. I don’t wanna say old friend because she’s younger than I am and has kids younger than I do, but we have been friends for a really long time. Her name is Arlene Pelican and guys,

Arlene Pellicane (00:39)
Long, I like that.

Kathi Lipp (00:49)
She is a phenomenal writer and speaker. And I wanna talk to her today. We’re talking about clutter, but we’re talking about it in the midst of relationship. And we’re focusing on her new book, Making Marriage Easier, How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life. First of all, Arlene, welcome back to the program you’ve been on before. I’m so grateful to have you back. Thank you so much for coming down.

Arlene Pellicane (01:17)
I’m so happy to be with you, my long friend. I like that. I like this long friend. So much better than old friend.

Kathi Lipp (01:19)
Long friend Yes, we don’t want to say old or aged

yeah, so I just have to ask are you a parks and rec fan by any chance?

Arlene Pellicane (01:32)
Okay, well, this is embarrassing. I am not, which I’m sure now people, don’t, I’m sorry, I don’t watch it. It’s not that I don’t like it. I just don’t watch it. So then people will be like, well now we cannot listen to anything that she has to say.

Kathi Lipp (01:43)
No,

it’s okay. I just thought did she get the title? Her subtitle from parks and rec

Arlene Pellicane (01:50)
See? So now

we know for a fact that it came from my own brain.

Kathi Lipp (01:54)
Yes, okay, it did come from your own

brain, but I am really going to encourage you. Roger and I have a poster that we held up at a wedding and it says, I love you and I like you. And that’s the two main characters. It’s one of my top three favorite shows ever. Feel free to skip over the first, like, I don’t know, season. Okay, that’s terrible. Yeah, yeah, start in season two, it’s fine.

Arlene Pellicane (02:10)
Yes. Okay, I will need to do that. Yes.

Yeah, like tell me, which season should I start in?

But I love you and I like you.

Kathi Lipp (02:24)
But

I love you and I like you and it just makes me happy. So I just had to get that out of the way. here’s the thing, I would do anything to watch it again for the first time. So here’s my gift to you. You get to watch it for the first time. yeah, well, okay. So this is really interesting because you know me, you know Roger and I both love and really like him. But I would say, I would venture to say,

Arlene Pellicane (02:29)
I love that.

Yes, this is fantastic.

Kathi Lipp (02:54)
that for many people I know that that is not the case. that what you would say? You’ve been in this, okay, so tell me more about that. Is it that, do you think that’s changed over the years or do you think that it’s always been like that and sometimes we just had to put up with it? Like, what’s your take on that? And guys, we are gonna talk about clutter, but I think this is foundational to what we’re talking about.

Arlene Pellicane (03:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we hear it more often now than before because I think the emphasis now in marriage is more on like, do you please me? Do you, you know, what do you do for me? And then it’s like, well, you, I don’t really like you very much because you didn’t do very much for me. Where I think in years past, it wasn’t so much like, do you please me? It was more like, hey, we’re a team and we’re in it to win it let’s do this thing. You know, so it wasn’t so much this inspection of, do I like you still?

Kathi Lipp (03:32)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (03:51)
You know, so I do think that is a more recent thing because we are just more self-centered as a society. We’re not as much like service oriented. Just think of, you know, volunteer organizations, for instance, that people used to go to things to whatever Lions Club, Kiwanis Club, whatever, to volunteer. You see a decline in that. And I think you can see that in marriages. Like we’re not so much there to serve one another, to be a team together. more like, well, as long as you’re good for me. Great.

Kathi Lipp (03:51)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (04:21)
but when you stop being good for me, not so much. And I think that’s what kind of has introduced us to this language of like, well, I don’t like you very much. So having said that, it is this, the reason I use that phrasing is yes, when I married James, same like you and Roger, like of course I liked him. Like obviously you like him more than anyone else in the whole worldwide world. That’s why you got married in the first place. So you’re like crazy and like with this person and then you’re married, whether it’s a year or 50 years.

Kathi Lipp (04:38)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (04:49)
And there are times where they do things that makes you think like, I do not like you very much. And I think that a lot of people that people can relate to, and I think that’s kind of normal. So one of the things that I have done is when I think to myself, well, you are being nitpicky, you know, to me, and I don’t like you very much, then I’ll think to myself, well, you probably don’t like me very much either in this moment, which is true, right? Like you’re both not liking each other at that exact moment. But to realize, you know what, we’re human.

Kathi Lipp (05:12)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (05:19)
And in any friendship, this happens too, where there’s just a moment where you’re like, hey, I didn’t really like that very much. But then you get over that and you just continue. And it’s the same thing in marriage that, hey, I’m not going to like you every minute of the day. I am going to love you. That’s my commitment. But what can I do in my marriage? How can I take out the emotional baggage, the clutter, the wrong things, the wrong soundtracks in my mind so that I can actually like you more than I can like you more often?

Kathi Lipp (05:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (05:48)
And

much of that has to do with rhythms that you’re actually connecting that it’s like, I do like you. I have time and I’m realizing on this date that I actually do like you. You are actually still funny. So it’s trying to give you more opportunities to rediscover that you really do like each other.

Kathi Lipp (06:00)
Ehh

Well, and I think that there’s a difference between I didn’t like that and I do like you. You know, it’s like I didn’t like how that conversation went. I didn’t like and so it’s very easy to turn that that phrasing into I don’t like when you do that instead of I don’t like how that went or I, you know, so to take mutual ownership oftentimes. But I do think, you know,

Arlene Pellicane (06:09)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (06:35)
I grew up in a church where it was all about women pleasing men because the framework was men have it so hard. You have no idea how hard men have it being the leaders. And so it’s all up to us to make sure they’re happy. And I think some of it’s healthy to say, no, thank you. No, we’re not doing that anymore because what everybody is doing is hard.

Arlene Pellicane (06:49)
Yep.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (07:03)
and is beyond themselves. And we need for both sides to go beyond themselves, to not be selfish and to say, I’m going to love you. And what that requires is beyond what’s comfortable for me sometimes, but we’re gonna do it. yeah, yes.

Arlene Pellicane (07:19)
Isn’t it interesting how it like swings? Like it would swing

like, okay, I must serve you because you have such a hard life and it becomes like too heavy one way. But then now we swung it the other way where we’re like, we’re not going to support a man because a man, you know, he’s been, I’m going to fend for myself as a woman. And we swing the other way, like serve me because do you have no idea how hard it is to be working and to be a mom and to make this dinner and all these things. And it is kind of that in the middle, right? That’s serving one another where you realize, Hey, everyone.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (07:48)
has like stuff to do and everyone needs that support.

Kathi Lipp (07:50)
Right.

And we need to be able to recognize that in each other. In your book, you talk about four key marriage decisions. Can you give me an overview of what they are? And then we’re going to dive deep. I want to talk about stuff because I, know, Jesus talks more about money and possessions than anything else in the New Testament. So he knew this was going to be a point of contention.

Arlene Pellicane (07:56)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Stuff.

Kathi Lipp (08:20)
So when we, we’ll get into the stuff of it, but let’s talk about these four key marriage decisions and why they’re so important.

Arlene Pellicane (08:20)
Yes.

Yeah.

The first decision, and these were, you James and I have been married for 25 years and we’ve been happily married and it was like, why is this working? Kind of this thought, like, what is it? We’re not superheroes. We’re human. We have fights. Like, why is this working? Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)
Yeah.

Okay, I want to say something to that because

I think it’s the exception. We were just at dinner with somebody on Saturday night and they said, we can’t believe your marriage. And I’m like, and here’s the thing, I think that they have a good marriage. I think that they have a happy marriage, but it really is the exception, isn’t it?

Arlene Pellicane (09:02)
You know, you can feel that way because you think like, no one’s talking like this. But my hope is, you know, with making marriage easier and with different things that more and more people will be able to say this. And hopefully there are more people who feel this way who we’re just not meeting. they’re out there. We just didn’t have dinner with them. That’s all.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Yeah, I hope so. Yes, let’s hope so.

So you’ve had 25 years of a happy marriage.

Arlene Pellicane (09:23)
Yeah. Yeah. So these

decisions, so it’s kind of like, like dissect this, like what have we done? So decision number one is play by the rules. And this is the idea of fighting fair, of not following your feelings, but following God’s commands. And you know, you think in Psalm one, it’s saying blessed is the man who delights in the law of the Lord. It’s kind of weird. It’s not like that they loved God. They love the law of the Lord. I love the rules of God. I love

Kathi Lipp (09:30)
Okay.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (09:53)
the way God orders things. And that’s what, when you play by the rules and you say, I love how God has made marriage and I want to honor these rules, I’m going to play by them. So what does this look like? You know, it means I’m not going to have adultery. I’m not going to steal something from you. I’m not going to lie to you. You know, you’re playing by the rules. You know, one of our rules is we call the power hour and that’s simply the rule of having a meal every day together.

Kathi Lipp (10:01)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:18)
It’s not legalistic.

It’s not like, you’re not here, but I’m hungry, so I can’t eat. It’s not like that, but it’s just the rhythm. Like every day, unless someone’s traveling or someone has a weird appointment, we’re gonna eat together. So there are certain rules and rhythms that you’ll say, you know, something like, I’m not gonna eat, I’m not gonna be with someone of the opposite sex alone over coffee or dinner. You know, things like that, that these are, play by these rules. So that’s the first decision. The second one is, I will give thanks every day.

Kathi Lipp (10:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:47)
So it’s making a home based on gratitude that that’s the stuff that’s important, right? To be thankful versus look what I don’t have. Look what I don’t have. I don’t have this marriage. I don’t have the good couch. Like this is ridiculous. So don’t that, that will tear down your home. So give thanks every day. The third thing decision is to serve your spouse. You know, people are, I don’t want to serve my spouse. They’re going to treat me like a doormat. That’s so outdated. But this is the idea of instead of a

Kathi Lipp (10:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (11:15)
approaching your marriage like, well, what have you done for me lately? Because boy, that sounds like a lot of fun. Be like, do I have to like tap and do a tap dance to make you happy? know, what have you done for me lately? Instead of that, we say, how can I make your life easier? You know, how can, what can I do for you today? So that attitude of service, all of a sudden, now you’re empowered to serve your spouse and do something good versus just inspecting and being disappointed at what you didn’t get, right? And then the fourth,

Kathi Lipp (11:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (11:44)
And final decision is to have, be serious about fun. Take fun seriously. So you had fun and that’s why you got married because even going to the grocery store or to the bank with your beloved when you were dating was fun because you were together, right? It was just like, yay, we’re together. We’re getting an oil change and this is so much fun because we’re in the car together, you know? So what happens when you’re married, you’re like, that’s extra. Like we can’t have fun. We don’t have money for that. We don’t have time for that.

Kathi Lipp (11:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (12:14)
So forget it, we don’t have fun. And then what happens? It’s like, we don’t have anything in common anymore because we never have fun. So it’s very important to say, my goodness, I should save money for that little excursion. I should put aside time to have date night because I actually need to laugh with you. And that’s something you and Roger do so well and so often, right? Is you make each other laugh and that’s what makes marriage easier. So take your fun seriously.

Kathi Lipp (12:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I look forward, today we have to go to, our RV is stored in a nether city and we have to go and do some repairs. And I’m looking forward to it because I get to hang out with him and have conversations. And it’s the stupid stuff, but you’re right. know, anything can be fun when it’s approached in the right way. I do think it is, you know, it’s both people agreeing to meet in that space.

Arlene Pellicane (12:52)
See?

I love that. Yeah.

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:09)
And think that that’s where, you know, one person’s working on the marriage and the other one is not. And that’s where we can get into trouble and feel like we’re struggling. But it’s been interesting. One of these things I see now that is I really press against, I don’t like it, is, well, you should just do that without me having to say thank you. And I…

Arlene Pellicane (13:20)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:37)
Here’s the thing. Yes, there are some things that roger does and I probably don’t notice and I probably don’t say thank you But if he does something and I do notice there’s going to be a thank you even if it seemed Yeah, like I know some people say I shouldn’t have to say thank you for unloading the dishwasher because that’s just part of Home maintenance and yes, it is just part of home maintenance and also i’m grateful

Arlene Pellicane (13:49)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (14:06)
that he has taken that on as his mental load, I don’t ever have to worry about dishes. And I am so grateful for that. And there are things he never has to worry about, and he is grateful for that. And so I think showing up in those ways is really important, even though it goes against modern wisdom and modern convention.

Arlene Pellicane (14:09)
Yes.

Yeah.

I’m

with you on this. So think of a server in a restaurant. They are just doing what they’re supposed to be doing. They are literally paid to bring you a menu, bring you your food, be pleasant to you and refill your water. They are literally doing your duty, their duty. They owe it to you. That’s their job. So am I going to just sit there and not be grateful? Am I just going to sit there and be like, yeah, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to be doing. I’m going to say thank you. Like you brought me my meal. Thank you. And in fact, this

Kathi Lipp (14:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I… Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (14:56)
what you have said shines light on something that happened to me at a restaurant. I was eating with three of my girlfriends and we were very like nice to the server, like just normal. And she literally came up to us afterwards, almost like in tears. And she was like, she was like, you are the nicest people. You wouldn’t believe the people I serve here. They are so mean and demanding and like it’s so hard.

Kathi Lipp (15:12)
I knew exactly what you were going to say. Yep.

Arlene Pellicane (15:25)
you are really, really nice. And I couldn’t believe it. I was like, we were just acting like cordially, like it was just normal. So I think we’ve come to that place that, it’s a bad place. It’s an ugly place where we think you owe that to me. So I’m not going to give thanks for something you owe to me. And that’s like a very ugly place to be. So I think if we can do it, we see it with the server in the restaurant. So my goodness in your home, even though you’re supposed to.

Kathi Lipp (15:42)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (15:52)
drive the kids to school, you’re supposed to bring home a paycheck, you’re supposed to do the dishwasher, please do say thank you, because that really does lend to that key decision, give thanks.

Kathi Lipp (16:03)
And especially if you’re going to a restaurant Sunday after church, because waiters hate Sunday after church. And it’s like, what a reputation. We need to be the most generous, the most kind, the most, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break. And then when we come back, we’re gonna talk about one of the most often marriage testing things, and that is stuff.

Arlene Pellicane (16:10)
Yeah.

Yes, the nicest, biggest tip. Yes, most patient, very kind, use their name.

Kathi Lipp (16:31)
So we’ll take a quick break and come right back with Arlene Pelleking. Okay, guys, we are back. in your book, you talk about stuff. And you talk about some of the materialistic traps in marriage. You were telling a story about your first apartment. I love, did you really have trash bag curtains?

Arlene Pellicane (16:59)
Yes,

we really did. We’re super classy. So our first apartment was on the fourth floor in Dallas, Texas. It was no elevator. we literally with the groceries when we packed in everything, four flights of stairs in hot Dallas, we got there, you know, I mean, it’s hot there. You get it. So anyway, we’re very poor, you know, we’re new newlyweds. The place is completely empty. It has like a card table and like a bed, you know, you get it. And all this stuff is going to be garage sale things. So we had no curtains.

Kathi Lipp (17:03)
Hahaha!

No.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (17:29)
And we’re like, boy, it gets like really sunny in here. So we’re like, okay, we’re going to make curtains with these black hefty bags. So we took the black hefty bags, know, we slit them and we hung them and put little ties around them. And we’re like, wow, this really works really good to block the sun and to do the things and to give that extra shade. we’re like, this is awesome. So it was so funny because here we are with these black hefty bags and we didn’t care.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (17:56)
because it’s like we were so happy together, it didn’t matter. And then in fact, our first fight was over him inviting a neighbor to dinner. And I had told him specifically, he asked me, hey, I just met our new neighbor, can I invite him to dinner? And I was like, no, because I only had two chicken breasts, I didn’t know how to cook, I was using my George Foreman grill for the first time, like this was.

Kathi Lipp (17:57)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (18:22)
I didn’t know how to cook. I’m like, this is going to be magic. I’m going put the chicken in. It’s going to come out. It’s going be amazing. But I was so super nervous about it. So I was like, and then we have the trash bags on the wall and we eat at this card table. I’m like, no, you cannot have someone last minute for dinner. And guess who came to dinner? Walter. Yes, of course. Knocked. Came to dinner and I couldn’t believe it. So I’m just like, okay, Walter, sit here. I was super nice to Walter, of course. He ate my chicken with the black trash bags. I mean, it was great.

Kathi Lipp (18:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Of course.

Of course.

Arlene Pellicane (18:52)
And when Walter left, I was very mad at James and he was like, he bear hugged me and he’s like, I’m sorry. And like, are you sorry because I’m mad at you? Are you sorry for what you did? You know? And thankfully we have never had an unwelcome guest. We have had guests, but they’ve had more notice. So, and I’m getting a little bit looser and we do have real curtains, but you know what? It’s okay when people actually like Walter.

Kathi Lipp (19:03)
Right.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (19:16)
as he was eating my chicken. Like he doesn’t care really, he probably finds it amusing that we have that. So sometimes we think we’ve got to have this stuff to impress our friends. And I get it, there is a certain level of stuff that you do need. I think it was good that we went and we don’t have the curtains, right? We don’t have that anymore. So there is a certain level that you do need. But once you get to that level, you can kind of stop because sometimes we think, if I get that new thing,

Kathi Lipp (19:21)
Right. Right.

Mm-hmm. I’m glad you upgraded your curtains. Yes

Arlene Pellicane (19:45)
it’ll make me really happy. But then you get the new thing and you enjoy it for a month. But then it’s like, I am not that much happier. So I am not a very good like designer person. Like I love beautiful things and I like nice things, but I don’t know how to put things together, right? Like I don’t know how to make it all look like ta-da, like this. So basically our house has kind of looked the same for the last like, let’s say 20 years. It’s like all the same furniture, all the same things. Anything that’s new has come off of

Kathi Lipp (19:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:15)
Craigslist or given away by someone who is moving, et cetera. And it’s fine and it looks fine. It’s great. But it’s like, I don’t have this, it has simplified life to not have to always upgrade the sofa, upgrade the table, upgrade the thing. Kind of like, hey, let’s buy this once, let’s buy quality and then let’s never buy it again.

Kathi Lipp (20:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:35)
And that

really has helped us to kind of simplify. We don’t always have to be changing these things, buying new things. I don’t have to have a new look because now it’s gray, it’s not brown. It’s like, it’ll be brown again someday. So just kind of like have that mindset like, if I make all these changes, it really doesn’t change the quality of the relationships in the house.

Kathi Lipp (20:46)
Right?

Yeah,

you know there there’s a great reddit thread. It’s called buy it for life And you know what vacuum cleaner are you gonna buy that you just buy for life? What’s the couch that you’re gonna buy and some of them are really expensive? But some of them are not and a lot of them you can get secondhand and you’re right, you know, you may enjoy I I will admit it. I’m addicted to throw pillows. It’s a problem

Arlene Pellicane (21:04)
Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (21:25)
And I will say they bring me a lot of joy. And I’ve had to also say, I don’t think any new pillows will bring me any more joy. Because every day when I sit down in our living room, there are a few pillows, I’m like, they just make me happy. But yes, you know, there are not ones out there. I am not searching for happier pillows. you know, it’s like, don’t replace joy for joy. If you already have the joy,

Arlene Pellicane (21:42)
Yes!

Yes!

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:55)
You don’t need

to be going and looking for other joy, you know, because yeah, it is often, I’m just trying to impress somebody or I want somebody to feel this way about me when they come through the door. Okay, go ahead.

Arlene Pellicane (22:06)
I have

to, I’m thinking of something that’s so funny. So I do want to have, I do want to say, like, I don’t get a lot of joy from decorating. So that makes it easy for me not to do it. So if you’re listening and this is something you super love, you know, then it may be something you really do do for the love of it. So I don’t want to discount that. With the throw pillows, it wouldn’t it be funny if there’s certain things in your house you love so much.

Kathi Lipp (22:15)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (22:31)
but you like put them away for the day. Like if you put your throw pillows in your closet for a day and then you took them out the next day, you’d be like, my throw pillow is back. So we did this with our daughter Lucy when she was two years old. She had a favorite little doggie, Violet, the purple doggie, the leapfrog one that like talks and sings and stuff. And she loved Violet.

Kathi Lipp (22:39)
you’re back!

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (22:53)
So what we did one year is we took Violet and we put a biking helmet on Violet and a little jacket on Violet and we made it biker Violet and we wrapped it for Christmas and she opened it as a two year old on Christmas day and saw biker Violet and you could not even believe the delight that that child had. She was like, Violet and Violet had the biking helmet on and this little jacket. It was like biker.

Kathi Lipp (23:02)
You

Arlene Pellicane (23:21)
And it was the cutest thing. And I thought to myself, I am such a smart mom. I took the same present and I dressed it up for this two year old and this two year old think it’s the best thing ever. And you know what? Maybe as adults, can like, how can you dress up what you already have? How can you like put it away and then take it out so that it’s the same stuff, but you get that little thrill of like, I’ve missed you Violet or you look different Violet. So it was so funny.

Kathi Lipp (23:37)
Yeah.

Okay, I love

the violet story so much. And we kind of do this, like we’ve been given little gifts before, and it’s like stuff I really like, but I don’t necessarily want stuff out all year round. And it’s very seasonal here. You know, in San Jose, I didn’t know, and where you live too. You don’t know the difference between March 30th and October 30th. Yeah, exactly. So we’ll…

Arlene Pellicane (24:10)
Right.

November 1st. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (24:19)
We do have like a summer box has like some flag stuff, because that’s I’m born on flag day. So I get flag stuff. And I’ll put things like the little donkey my friend, Susie gave me in that box. And when I open it, I’m like, I love the donkey. But then I put it away. It’s so true. So how do you feel that having less stuff in your life can contribute to

Arlene Pellicane (24:35)
All right. Right.

Kathi Lipp (24:49)
an easier time in your marriage because I believe it can but I don’t know that people see the through line for that.

Arlene Pellicane (24:50)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes. When you have a lot of stuff, you have to manage your stuff. You have to take care of your stuff. So whether it’s taking care like I have a friend who has a boat, he’s on the boat all the time. So you kind of like for his wife, it’s kind of like the boat is the other woman. So that’s a very extreme example, like how the stuff takes a lot of time. So you have to just take that to heart. So if you have

Kathi Lipp (25:00)
Exactly.

You

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (25:24)
so much stuff and you have to organize it. Like right now, my laundry room, which has shelves, has so much stuff. So in my mind, when I go in there, it’s like, I’m so stressed out. It’s like half pantry, half like kid stuff, half activity stuff, games, it’s everything. So I know I need to take time, a good swath of time, and go through all of that. Now, if that is multiplied all throughout my house and I keep piling more on,

Kathi Lipp (25:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (25:51)
then I have more and more time that I have to spend to organize it versus if I actually did think from here on out, and this is a work in progress, buy it once, keep it, buy quality, you and maybe when I look at a new thing to be like, do I really need that new clutter that’s gonna be like another thing for me to have to find a place for? And maybe then I say, no, I’m not gonna buy that, because I know my laundry room is packed and I don’t need that. So what does that do?

Well, it frees me up my headspace, frees my headspace from worrying about it. It frees me up two hours on a Saturday where I would have to like manage my things. Now I can go out and have ice cream with my husband or my kids. So I do think it is a time issue of the time that you spend buying it, figuring out where do I put it, and then figuring out where do I store it, then figuring out do I want it or not want it, all those things, you know, they take time. So the less…

Kathi Lipp (26:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (26:47)
you have to do that, then the more time you have to spend, the less time you have to spend organizing your garage and the more time you can be riding bikes with your kids or doing whatever, you know. So it is a good concept. mean, please don’t hear me and think I’m like this minimalist guru. We have stuff coming out of our ears because I do, I like to keep things, you know, my middle daughter, she’s very minimalist. She can do it. She can look at something, she’ll get a trophy.

Kathi Lipp (26:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (27:14)
tennis trophy on Tuesday, it’s in the trash on Friday. You know what I mean? Like she’ll be like, I got it. That was great. I don’t really need this. Where I’ll be like, well, I’m going to keep that for a few years, you know? So there, she’s very like, I don’t need that. Like she’s very minimalist. Like I enjoyed it and I’m going to get rid of it. And I’m more of the like, it’s a treasure. Like I will keep it. So, you know, we’re all across this, this spectrum of how we view our stuff.

Kathi Lipp (27:17)
Wow.

Wow.

Arlene Pellicane (27:43)
But I think when it comes acquiring right now more, that this is a good time where we can say, you know what, less is probably better. You know, I’ve read something from Mickalyn Smith, the nester, and she said that the most luxurious room in my home is my bedroom because it’s completely clutter free. It’s just like the bed and these like very minimalistic decor and my clothes. And she just talks about luxury is needing less.

Kathi Lipp (27:51)
Yeah.

You have.

Arlene Pellicane (28:12)
And I really like that thought like, it’s more luxurious not to have your

stuff packed everywhere with stuff. It’s more luxurious to be like, I just have a few things I really like.

Kathi Lipp (28:23)
Well, and also I just did an episode with a doctor who specializes in sleep and the less that’s in your best bedroom, the less it pings you and yeah, you sleep better, you know, and with our acquisition, people who have listened to this podcast know that we talk about STEM, space, time, energy and money and the less stuff, the less space it takes up. So the less pinged you are time you’re like you were saying you’re not

Arlene Pellicane (28:31)
Interesting. My goodness.

Hmm. Yep. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (28:53)
dealing with that energy. You know, we’re always so exhausted, but we’re managing so much stuff. And then money because money is one of the biggest stress points in most marriages. And if we can hold on to more of that not spending it, you know, there there are certain places, you know, Costco is a trap for me. Target can be a trap for me. I have never met something at Trader Joe’s that I didn’t like, you know.

Arlene Pellicane (28:57)
Yep.

Right, me too.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (29:22)
These

are traps for me, but the money gives me options. And that’s what I want in my marriage. What if somebody is struggling over the state of their house with their spouse, whether their husband is on the messier side or maybe, you know, for the people who are listening, maybe it’s us, maybe we’re the ones who are struggling on the messier side. What are some talking points?

that you could have for that discussion as we close up here. What is something, how can you open up that conversation, whether it’s you or the other person?

Arlene Pellicane (30:01)
Yeah. You know, I would say start not with the idea like, am going to convince this person to be less messy. Right? Start instead of just being curious of like, how might we fix this? Like, how might this be easier? And approach your spouse that way. Like, hey, you know what? You know, I’m always nagging you to pick up your stuff and you’re always leaving your stuff around. I don’t want to nag you.

I don’t want to do that. So let’s brainstorm together. How can we make this easier for both of us? And just be kind of curious about like, maybe the messy person will say, you know, I really like the house messy because I grew up in a messy house and it just makes me feel at home. And when the house is so neat and picked up, I feel like it’s sterile, like I feel like it’s hospital. And you know what? As a spouse, if you heard that,

Kathi Lipp (30:29)
Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Arlene Pellicane (30:53)
it would give you a new perspective of, you actually feel really comfortable right now. This feels good to you. But now you’re kind of curious, you know, about what my husband would say you’re crossing the street. Like you’re crossing the street to find out what does the other person say about this. And then you could tell them, well, okay, that helps me to understand that that’s where, but for me, it has the opposite effect. I come home and I’m all freaked out. So maybe you do zones.

Kathi Lipp (30:58)
This feels good to you, yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:21)
that you’re like, hey, we’re gonna keep the kitchen area really clean and we’re gonna keep the bedroom really clean. And then the other part, the little family room, if you wanna junk that up, that can be like our thing. But you have to promise when we have people over, you have to help me clean it up. But like, I love this conversation of like, how can we make this easier for both of us so that we both could enjoy this just a little more. So don’t try to go for the total win.

Kathi Lipp (31:27)
Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:48)
Like we’re gonna completely clean the house, but just a little more, how could we make this a little better for both of us?

Kathi Lipp (31:54)
Yeah, because when there are winners and losers in a marriage, everybody loses. It’s just that it never works out. You never are going to win against your spouse because you’re never supposed to be set against your spouse. And so I love, I love, love, love this idea. Arlene, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Arlene Pellicane (31:59)
Yes. Yeah.

Yep.

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been so, so much fun. And I want to encourage you, instead of spending your money on stuff, spend it, save it for experiences. Because the experiences, you enjoy it three times. And I talk about how you can enjoy experiences three times in the book.

Kathi Lipp (32:26)
Yeah.

I think I know what you’re talking about. But yes. OK. The book is called Making Marriage Easier. How to love and like your spouse for life. We’ll have notes. We’ll have an ordering link in the show notes so you can go there and order it at Amazon or any of your favorite retailer, wherever books are sold. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Cathy Lip. Now.

Go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#672 – From Pantry to Plate: The Secret to Smart Food Storage

Jun 3, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Foodie Friday, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast

Join Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo in this episode of Clutter-Free Academy as they tackle the often overwhelming world of food storage. Whether you’re struggling with long-term pantry organization, fridge chaos, containers for on the go or finding the right containers for...

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May 20, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp is joined by clutter experts Tonya Kubo and Tenneil Register for the second part of their heartfelt discussion on sentimental items. Discover the emotions that often lead us to hold onto things we neither love nor...