#662 &#8211; How I Organized My Pots &#038; Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:06)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutterfree Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And today we’re going to get as practical as you can get. We’re going to be as intentional and you know I like the word prescriptive but Tonya can we just call it what it is, it’s bossy right?

Tonya Kubo (00:31)
Hey, I love to be bossed around. And I think our listeners do too.

Kathi Lipp (00:33)
Right?

Yes. Well, you know, in our paid group, we have an opportunity, at least this year, where you and I got on calls with people for 15 minutes and really what they want. First of all, they want to just unburden on somebody that knows that they’re not going to be judged by. But the other thing is they want to be bossed around. yeah, and I love that for us. And so

Tonya Kubo (00:58)
yeah.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
Today we’re gonna get down into the nitty gritty. We’re talking about the dreaded kitchen cupboard. And let me just tell you the worst one of all is where the pots and pans live. Is that a sore spot for you or have you got that all figured out?

Tonya Kubo (01:19)
Well, I wouldn’t say I have it all figured out, but mine hang. So they don’t get like they do for some people, right? Where they’re like piling. So my issue is actually the lids because the lids don’t hang. So I have the lids like stacked on the shelf and then sometimes they fall on my head.

Kathi Lipp (01:23)
interesting.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I could

see where that would happen. Well, we’ve got approximately 20 minutes that we are and we’ve got a little commercial break, but otherwise all we’re going to be doing is talking about pots and pans because here’s the thing friends. It’s the little things right and we want you to take those little spaces that can be a little annoying can be a little frustrating and let’s let’s tackle them. Okay, we’re going to tackle them together Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (02:07)
Alrighty, sounds good. So, Kathi if you don’t mind, I’m gonna reverse our roles here a bit, because I am curious about, I guess what I wanna start off with is, because I’ve been to your house, but most of our listeners haven’t, I want you to describe what was the pots and pans cupboard like before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so, you know, as we’ve talked about many times before, you come to my house and you don’t see a ton of clutter. But I will always be a cluttery girl at heart. That’s my deep, that’s my, that’s my truth. That is my truth. And that pots and pan cupboard, you know, when we moved in, of course I organized it. I did everything I could, but it’s just, if, if nobody lived there, it would stay so much more organized. But sadly, you know, I’m a cook.

Tonya Kubo (02:38)
Mm-hmm.

That is your truth.

Kathi Lipp (03:01)
I like to cook and I’m very fortunate that Roger puts dishes away, but it was always a pain. It was because it’s low. It’s a corner cupboard. And so you kind of have to dig back in there. And if you really want some stuff that’s all the way in the back, holy cow. And so a lot of things got shoved and I am a collector at heart. So there were things like

Tonya Kubo (03:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
weird cake pans and different kinds of muffin tins and three of my favorite kind of saucepan, things like that. So it just felt like, okay, once I could get those pans out of there, I could get to cooking. But there was always that kind of burden in there.

Tonya Kubo (03:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and so your corner cabinet, because I’ve been to your house, I think one of the issues, and I think a lot of people have this issue too, is that the opening to the cabinet is actually much more narrow than the cabinet. It’s like the Harry Potter closet, right? It’s like you open it up and it’s like, hey, there’s a whole room in here. So I’m just curious, did you find that when you had people over, because you entertain a lot, did their way of putting…

Kathi Lipp (04:06)
Yes, yes. Right, absolutely. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:23)
things away kind of add to the challenge. It’s not that we’re upset that anybody would come over and put your dishes away because we know that that’s a gift. That’s a blessing. But I’m just curious if yes, you and Roger maybe had some difficulty, but maybe some guests possibly added to the difficulty.

Kathi Lipp (04:29)
Never. Yes. Yes.

Well,

I think some people don’t want to see things. They’re like, if it’s hidden, it’s not clutter. So they might put a pot or something into a deep stock pot. And I might not see that for four months. other problem is that it’s like a cave, right? And I didn’t want, I know that there are some fancy people out there who is like,

Tonya Kubo (04:43)
Mmm. Got it.

Keep right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:07)
I had somebody come rewire my cabinets. I don’t have rewire my cabinets kind of money. That’s just not something I’m choosing to spend money on at this time. So there were a lot of different, you know, it was overcrowded. You couldn’t reach certain pots. I would actually have to call Roger from upstairs to grab some of those things. You know, there were duplicate, it was just a mess.

Tonya Kubo (05:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I’m imagining part of it is also your arms aren’t long enough to get to the back, right? I mean, mine, I know mine aren’t long enough to get to the back of your cabinet.

Kathi Lipp (05:35)
Right, I…

I am the T-Rex of human beings. I have the shortest arms in the world. And you you mentioned lids. Lids are a real issue. And so, you know, we just had to deal with all that kind of stuff. I’m making it sound worse than it is. I’m compiling like three years of frustration into a, in three minutes. But I think there are other people who have felt this frustration.

Tonya Kubo (05:41)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Well, but I don’t really feel like you’re making a bigger deal out of it than it is because to your point, I think everybody has these frustrations regardless of what the physical space looks like. I think all of us have some cabinet and oftentimes it’s our pots and pads cabinet where our arms aren’t long enough to get to the back. All of us have an issue with nesting like smaller items inside of larger items but then the largest item being so deep that you can’t see what’s inside.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:33)
Like, so I do think I appreciate the fact that you spent three minutes on this because I think you’ve listed all the pain points that our listeners are most likely to experience with our pots and pans. So now it’s the big question, Kathi, because this is the question that plagues everybody in our community. It’s what was your first move?

Kathi Lipp (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

So I finally had to admit to myself those little cake tins that were shaped like flowers. The one that was shaped like Thomas the Tank Engine. Those specialty things, dude, I’m just not that special. I’m just not. And I might imagine someday in the future when I have grandkids that they would want that train pan.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:17)
But you know, we have to come to the realization what our grandkids want is rarely what our kids wanted. And by the way, I don’t have anybody who is planning on having children in my family. So what was I holding on to those things for? And then, you know, there was so much someday in there is that, you know, I’ve realized keeping something that you use once a decade.

Tonya Kubo (07:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
isn’t worth losing daily cupboard space.

Tonya Kubo (07:49)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
It’s just not. It’s, you know, it’s so many of it would be more worth it to me to go to Michael’s, buy the cake pan, use it and immediately donate it. That would be a better use of my time, space, money and energy than keeping a cake pan I use once every 10 years. So I had to go through that cabinet and say,

Tonya Kubo (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)
If I’m not using this, why? So one of the things I did immediately, like one of the cake pans, I have a popover pan and I probably haven’t used that in a decade. And I’m like, I’m not willing to get rid of this. So I had to be willing to use it. So I made popovers, they were terrible. I’m going to make them again. I’m going to do it until I get it right. But if you’re going to hang on to something you haven’t used before.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)
Hmm.

haha

Kathi Lipp (08:47)
Are you imagining a life that you want to someday have or can you just use it right now? Say, I’m gonna try it and I’m gonna use it. if you’re willing to use it right away, I say keep it. If you’re not willing to use it right away, it’s probably time to get rid of it.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Yeah, well, and what I like about that perspective is it falls completely in line with our principle about negotiating space. I mean, there’s only so much real estate in a home and there’s only so much real estate that you can afford to designate for your pots and pans, right? Because there’s a whole lot more that goes into a kitchen. So those specialty pans, like they sound like the easiest decision to make, the best starting.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Right. Yes, yes.

Exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
But after that, it feels to me like everything else would be equal priority. So where did you go from there?

Kathi Lipp (09:38)
Hmm

Duplicates okay, so Tonya I fancy myself a cook. I know I know I know

Tonya Kubo (09:42)
no. Don’t pick

on my four muffin tins, Kathi Lip. Do not pick on my four muffin tins.

Kathi Lipp (09:47)
Okay, okay, can I just say though if

if you like me Use your four muffin tins at the same time Then you get to keep those muffin tins like I often will do a big batch of muffins and I will use both tins at the same time to bake a bunch of things at the same time and I also have big muffin tins

Tonya Kubo (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:17)
I also have teeny tiny muffin tins. And by the way, I use all of those. So I have two regular muffin tins, one big and one teeny tiny, and I use all of them. So you know what? I kept all of them. I’m about as close to a, I don’t want to say a professional cook, because that doesn’t describe me. But I did write a cookbook and I had to use these things. But how many times did I use the same size

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:47)
I do have some fry pans that are slightly larger, some that are slightly smaller, and those were perfectly good. So I gave away some of my duplicate, you know, the pan that you’re like, okay, if the apocalypse happens and I need it, that pan is there. Well, the apocalypse doesn’t happen, but you know what, COVID did, and I never used that pan, so it was time to get rid of it. So, at,

Tonya Kubo (10:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Got it, okay.

Kathi Lipp (11:14)
Ask yourself if you really need three stockpots. If not, donate or sell or buy nothing group or something like that. And I’m pointing at me because I have two, here’s the thing, I wrote a book about soup. I kept too many stockpots. It’s time to, because I have slow cookers. I have other big pots. I don’t need, is it two or three stockpots? I don’t know, but you know what? Yeah, sometimes you have to do this in layers. There’s layers.

Tonya Kubo (11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And the muffin tins thing, that was a big argument I had with my best friend, Amber, if you’re listening, this is about you. Because I had four muffin tins and she was just like, you only need one. And I’m like, no, because I oftentimes will make two dozen muffins, two dozen cupcakes. And she was like, yes. So you bake them in one, you empty those out to cool and then you do the other. And I’m like, you obviously do not understand my workflow in the kitchen.

Kathi Lipp (11:50)
Hahaha!

Yes.

No,

Tonya Kubo (12:11)
I do not want to wait for the muffins to cool, to take them out, to then

Kathi Lipp (12:12)
no. Right, right.

Tonya Kubo (12:15)
refill them. That feels like dead time. So thank you for validating my four muffin tins. That’s really what this is about. This is validating me in a 20 year old argument. Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (12:18)
And Kim.

Yes. And

Tonya, also, what’s the storage harm in those muffin tins? Because they nest right into each other. So I’m giving you a cupcake pass.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)
right. That is true.

Yes, I get the cupcake pass. I’m so excited. Okay, so we’ve removed our specialty pans that we’re not using and we’re not willing to use. We have gotten rid of our duplicates. What’s next?

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

So I just think getting rid, when you get rid of those duplicates, I want you to think about who can I give these to? Sometimes our first thing is who can I sell these to? I don’t think, I think oftentimes if maybe we’re a little bit more on the side, this side of 40 years old than we are on that side of 40 years old. And to think through, you know,

Do I really need the money for this or could I help somebody like people helped me when I was first starting out? You know that extra muffin tin. So could you use that it organizes your space and then you act, you know, we can bless someone else by passing on items we don’t actually use because that may become their favorite muffin tin.

Tonya Kubo (13:42)
that totally makes sense. Okay, well, we’re gonna have to pay some bills, take a break. But when we come back, dear listener, do not leave us because now that we’ve talked about how we’ve minimized the pots and pans area, we’re gonna talk about organizing.

All right, so we are back and we are going to hear from Kathi. Kathi, you are going to talk to us about how you organized your pots and pans after you decluttered all the excess that you didn’t need.

Kathi Lipp (14:11)
Right. Okay, so one of the first things I did was I installed lighting. Now, like I said, this sounds like a rich person solution, right?

Tonya Kubo (14:21)
I

was gonna say I need more info on this Kathi. Yeah?

Kathi Lipp (14:24)
Okay, Tonya, this may be

my favorite discovery so far of 2020. This may encompass 2024 and 2025. So I just did an AI search. How do I get lighting into my cupboard without rewiring things? And there is, and I’ll link it in the show notes, okay? You install a magnet on top of your cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (14:43)
Okay.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (14:53)
All right, and this magnet is the other side of the magnet of a light bar. Okay, it’s a light bar. So you can pull this light bar out, but it just slaps up there with a magnet. And you can recharge this light bar on a USB charger. So the same thing that you use to charge your cell phone, you can use this to recharge that bar. And here’s the beautiful thing, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (15:03)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:23)
it is motion activated. So.

Tonya Kubo (15:26)
So

you don’t have to worry about leaving it on.

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Right, it’s not a flip on flip off. It is when I open the cupboard, it flips on and when I close the cupboard, it turns off. And we’ve had this for about three months now and have not had to recharge it yet.

Tonya Kubo (15:44)
that is so nice because we have tap lights in our deep cabinets, but the problem is as they get left on and then they overheat.

Kathi Lipp (15:47)
Yes, yeah, right.

we don’t want that.

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
No, you do not want overheating. No, that’s a bad idea. So this with the motion activate. my gosh, this is brilliant. How’d you find him, Kathi? AI. It was AI.

Kathi Lipp (15:56)
No.

I just, AI, I just said, here’s the

problem, here’s the problem. And it said, have you tried this? I’m like, why no, I haven’t tried that. So I will link those. You can get them on Amazon. You can get them at Lowe’s. You can get them anywhere. They’re one, they are life-changing. Can I tell you, nothing makes me smile more these days than opening that cabinet and the light coming on after six years of it being a cave.

Tonya Kubo (16:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, well, that would make me smile. I’m going to smile the next time I’m at your house and I get to use it. If you find me in your kitchen just opening and closing the cabinet, you’ll know what I’m doing now.

Kathi Lipp (16:33)
Yes.

Yes. Yes.

I would

not blame you at all. I would not blame you at all.

Tonya Kubo (16:45)
Okay, so that has to be like the highlight of this episode for me personally, but there is more to the pots and pans area in a kitchen than just that. What are you doing it with bakeware?

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
Yeah, yes. Yes.

Yeah, so let’s talk about the infamous muffin tins and like little cookie sheets and things like that. got, and guys, we’re gonna link all of this in the podcast notes so you can go and check out exactly what we’re talking. Cause isn’t a podcast the best place to display storage organization, right? know, my audio is our best forms, yes. But we will put it in the show notes. This is just a wire wrap.

Tonya Kubo (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Why yes, yes it is. Show notes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)
that

is, it’s a little bit wider than like what you would use to organize papers. But I just have it all standing up and it’s easy to grab. And you can see what you have. So it’s just a simple wire organizer. But the main thing is you have to declutter what you’re not using because if you’re still are trying to organize chaos, it’s never going to happen.

Tonya Kubo (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:50)
But if you’re organizing what you actually use, it’s gonna be beautiful.

Tonya Kubo (17:55)
Yeah, well, and I like that idea because, with cookie sheets or baking sheets, I guess we call them because we don’t just put cookies on them. Muffin tins and such. Stacking them flat just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Kathi Lipp (18:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

It doesn’t

work, it doesn’t work. And this simple thing just saves me so much time and rummaging around. I’m no longer banging things around. I hate being frustrated. I hate being frustrated in the kitchen and this has solved a lot of that frustration.

Tonya Kubo (18:14)
Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, okay, so before we run out of time, you mentioned earlier about having a lids solution. Talk to me about pots, lids, all that good stuff.

Kathi Lipp (18:29)
Yeah.

Well, okay,

so this, after the light situation, this may be my favorite thing. This is, it’s hard to describe. It’s like a tower that is, has separate shelves that you can store your pots, your pans, and your lids on. Now, a lid solution for you, Tonya, because you don’t store your pots and pans like that, could just be that wire rack we talked about.

Tonya Kubo (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that’s

what I was thinking about. I was like, some people are gonna get that for baking sheets. I might be getting that for my lids.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yes.

Yes,

absolutely, absolutely. But this one, the one that I got, it just has different shelves jutting out from it. And I have got it all set up for my fry pans and things like that. And I just bought one for my pots, because I wanted to buy one to see, does this actually work for me? And Roger and I, who have very different organizational styles,

Tonya Kubo (19:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:33)
Like everything we’ve talked about here so far has worked for both of us. yeah, so that’s, talk about miracles. But it keeps your pots upright. You’re not scratching your pots and pans by stacking them inside. And let’s be honest, pots don’t stack nicely, you know, with the handles and stuff. So it makes it so much easier. The one thing I’m going to tell you though is before you order, measure.

Tonya Kubo (19:38)
nice.

They don’t. No.

Kathi Lipp (20:03)
You know, well, here’s the thing. When I went on Amazon to order this, it said it had a satisfaction ranking of like 4.7, but it said this is an often returned item. I’m like, well, if people are so satisfied, why are they returning it? Because it didn’t fit in their cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (20:05)
This sounds like the voice of experience.

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (20:30)
That

was my own sleuthing. So finally I’m getting smart. I’ve got one thing I bought for everybody at Christmas in 2023 were these mini measuring tapes. They look like dull measuring tapes, but they go out, I think either two or three feet and I keep one in my kitchen. And before I order something, I make sure that I can measure that space. And it makes such a difference.

Tonya Kubo (20:38)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

cool. Can we put that in the show notes too, Kathi? Okay. Measuring tape. I put Barbie measuring tape on my notes because I’ll know what that means. Okay. So let me recap really quickly because we are out of time, but you’re so you minimize by getting rid of the specialty items. You got rid of the duplicates and then your three tips in terms of organizing what was left is you got a light.

Kathi Lipp (21:02)
Yes, I will make a note to do that.

Yes, exactly, perfect. Yes, exactly.

guess.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)
that is rechargeable does not involve rewiring anything nor the investment that it would take for electrical systems like that. You got a bakeware rack so that you can vertically stack your cookie sheets, your muffin tins. Then you got a pot organizer, which I think the pot organizer is my favorite idea too, even though it doesn’t apply to my situation because I have had to get rid of really nice pots because they scratched.

Kathi Lipp (21:29)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

right, exactly.

Tonya Kubo (21:55)
They were too scratched up and I love

the idea of storing them in a way that keeps them protected like that. Is there anything else you would add for us today?

Kathi Lipp (22:01)
Yeah.

say that if you think you need everything that you have but there are some things that are iffy could you put those things into a storage container for like three months and see if you actually use them and if you’re not using them then that’s your sign to say it’s okay to give them away and also another thing to think about is

Tonya Kubo (22:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:35)
there are some libraries that will let you check out cake pans. So if cake pans are something that you are interested in, I love libraries these days. It’s not just about books anymore. You could go check out a Thomas the Tankin, or let’s be clear, let’s bring it for 2025, a bluey cake pan, right? That’s right. And so you could check that out.

Tonya Kubo (22:48)
I love libraries too.

Bluey cake pan baby.

Kathi Lipp (23:05)
and not have to store it in your house, which I think those are two tips about keeping some of that chaos out of your house. That’ll make it much easier. And by the way, Tonya, this is gonna be so much easier to clean. And you know, it’s.

Tonya Kubo (23:17)
What I was gonna

ask, like now that it is all organized, I think one of the issues I see from listeners who write in is keeping it that way. And so, you you brought up some good points is you’re not gonna restock with specialty cake pans if you can check your local library first. It’s easier to clean. Any recommendations when it comes to cleaning?

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yes.

I love a good handi-vac, I’m not gonna lie. That’s my favorite thing to do. And then if you are, I just, let’s keep it simple, just a rag. And I love the Method grapefruit. Have you ever smelled that? You may have smelled it at my house, yeah. Or somebody, yeah, I don’t like the taste of grapefruit, but the smell makes me so happy. And.

Tonya Kubo (23:42)
Okay. I love a good handiwork too.

Mmm, I do. I like a good grapefruit smell.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:05)
I don’t have to do it very often because we’re not putting dirty things in there, but you know, every once in a while, but just that handy vac going around there, guys, I want you to smile when you go to your pots and pans. And I didn’t know that was a space that could make me smile, but it really does.

Tonya Kubo (24:23)
my gosh, well hey, I think every part of your house, like you deserve for every part of your house to make you smile. And so what I would love to do is I would love to invite our listeners to join us in our Facebook group. That’s Kathi with an I dot link slash CFA. And I want to see their before and after transformations of their pots and pans cabinets. And of course, if there’s any questions that they might have. Anything else you want to add before we sign off, Kathi?

Kathi Lipp (24:29)
Hmm. Yes.

Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, we have this great download just step by steps and steps of how to you know Obviously my thought is listen to this podcast episode on repeat as you’re doing this because you’ll feel encouraged But we also have a download that you can go and get the step-by-steps to clean out that cupboard Yeah, all of that, but look at our show notes to go check out those Amazon links I think those will really encourage you and it’s going to provide solutions

Tonya Kubo (25:02)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:19)
for like, can’t I keep this organized? We got you, we got you.

Tonya Kubo (25:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. So check the show notes for the Amazon links, check the show notes for a link to the Facebook group and check the show notes for the download. That I think is especially important.

Kathi Lipp (25:35)
Perfect.

See you.

Tonya Kubo (25:43)
I don’t have the script for the close.

Kathi Lipp (25:45)
I’m

sorry, my bad. Well, friends, we, Tonya and I hope that we’ve given you some ideas and some encouragements to do that corner of your house that, you know, has maybe been driving you crazy, but there are solutions and we wanna take all of those hurdles out of the way when it comes to getting dinner on the table and this is a great place to start. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now.

Go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

Jun 17, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Low Buy July, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

Jun 10, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame | 0 comments

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering.

Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she discovered that creative, successful women often struggle the most with clutter. Together, they explore why shame is so deeply connected to our messy spaces and how understanding that “Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house” can be the key to making real progress.

If you’ve ever felt that your cluttered home somehow makes you a spiritual failure, this episode offers liberating insights. Dana debunks common misconceptions about biblical references to order and cleanliness, including a fresh perspective on the Proverbs 31 woman.

Listeners will discover:

Why traditional organizing advice often fails creative minds

How removing shame is the first step to making actual progress

Dana’s practical decluttering question: “If I needed this item, where would I look for it first?”

The freedom that comes from embracing the reality of your space

Whether you’re just starting your decluttering journey or have been struggling for years, this conversation offers both spiritual encouragement and practical strategies to help you create a functional home without shame.

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As mentioned by Kathi:

Dana K. White’s website – https://danakwhite.com/

Dana’s new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House – https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/jesus/

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Dana K White

Dana K. White is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, speaker, and creator of the No Mess Decluttering Process. Through her podcast, YouTube channel, and three published books, she shares practical decluttering and organizing strategies that work for real people who don’t naturally love to clean. As the founder of DeclutteringCoaches.com, she now trains and certifies others in her unique approach to home management.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:19.694)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. Okay, you guys, you refer to her in so many emails to me, you quote her, you, I think you want me to be her, but you know what? I’ve got the next best thing. She is here on the podcast.

And this is our first time meeting, so I’m so glad we’re doing it with all of my friends listening. You guys, it is Dana K. White. Dana, welcome to Clutterfree Academy.

Dana K White (00:56.509)

Thank you so much for having me on. I have been hearing for years, you’ve got to meet Kathi. Like you just have to and I’m like, okay. So I’m excited that we’re getting to meet finally.

Kathi Lipp (01:01.518)

Well, you know, I have also heard that, but let me just tell you where I’ve encountered you the most when I’m going to Amazon to see how my books are doing and who’s outselling me. And it’s always you. Not that I’m bitter or anything, but you know what? Here’s what I love. The message about decluttering and about Jesus is getting out there. So if it’s you, I will cheer you on because now I’ve discovered you’re really nice. So, okay. Instead of

Dana K White (01:12.999)

Okay.

Dana K White (01:19.559)

Sorry.

Dana K White (01:28.475)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dana K White (01:35.365)

And I’m funny.

Kathi Lipp (01:36.43)

And you’re funny, I love a funny queen. I love this so much. Okay, we have so much to get into and I know we’re gonna get sidetracked. So I’m just gonna dive in. And by the way guys, if you’re one of the three people who doesn’t know who Dana K. White is, she’s written several books, three quarters of a million books sold. So like she knows what she is talking about.

Dana K White (01:41.715)

you

Kathi Lipp (02:00.18)

Also a YouTube star. for my, you know, millennials and, you know, Z listeners, you guys have seen her. I’m sure you have. But I, here’s what I want to discuss because when I first started in this decluttering game, I did not understand that I would be talking. I thought I was going to be talking about organizational systems. I thought I was going to be talking. What I end up talking about all the time.

is shame. And I, why do shame and clutter go hand in hand? Why are these two things like kissin’ cousins? Because I don’t know that a lot of people who are struggling with clutter think it’s shame based, but I would say when I’m talking to people, at least 75 % of the time it is.

Dana K White (02:54.695)

Well, think, so coming at it, not necessarily from the clutter being the result of the shame, but the shame being result of the clutter. what, okay, so my story is that I started this anonymous blog. I thought it was gonna be temporary. It was just gonna be practice because I was desperate to write, but my house had always been a disaster, like always, always, always. Every space I touched turned into a disaster, right? And so I,

Kathi Lipp (02:59.694)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:12.876)

Yeah.

Dana K White (03:20.723)

was writing about this, thinking it was a way to stay focused on my home and be able to figure that out so I could then start writing about other things that I actually had any desire whatsoever to write about, which was not this. And I was anonymous in the beginning because I didn’t tell anybody what I was doing. I didn’t even tell my husband. I was so, this was my shameful secret. Like my clutter was my shameful secret. And a lot of…

Kathi Lipp (03:30.538)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (03:44.556)

Yeah.

Dana K White (03:50.279)

my actual change came from the fact that people started reading what I was doing. And while I assumed that they were gonna say, well, get off the internet, you’re a horrible person, right? Instead, what they said was, these are my thoughts, these are my struggles, these are the same things that go through my head, the same things that I do. And so knowing I was not alone was actually the most powerful thing in being able to change.

Kathi Lipp (04:02.368)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (04:06.413)

Yeah.

Dana K White (04:17.809)

Because what I saw, like, so this was back in 2009, remember the blogging days, right? And when people would leave a comment, you would click on their name on Blogger and you could see a little profile about them, right? And I started to see that these were highly creative women, like artists and poets and lots of theater arts teachers. I was a theater arts teacher, right? Like before I had kids. so like I…

Kathi Lipp (04:23.704)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (04:38.23)

Yes.

Dana K White (04:47.867)

there was this common thread. They were also very highly successful women, right? And so I saw that, okay, so this creative side of me that I’ve always been like, thank you God for making me creative, right? Was directly related to my struggles with clutter. And when I saw that, it helped me accept that this struggle is part of how my brain works. And I like my brain, it’s a little weird, you know? I like it.

Kathi Lipp (05:01.44)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (05:13.112)

Yes. Right? Yes.

Dana K White (05:18.373)

except for this issue. And when I realized that, it gave me permission to say, okay, I don’t have to feel like a failure because traditional organizing advice doesn’t work for me, right? Because the people writing that have very different brains than mine, right? And so, exactly. So I think the shame issue often comes down to the disconnect between I am a successful, intelligent woman.

Kathi Lipp (05:28.876)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (05:34.125)

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (05:47.224)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (05:48.765)

But if you look at my house, you’re gonna assume that I’m an idiot. I know that sounds awful and harsh, right? But that’s the way I felt like. Like you look at my house and you think, you would never assume that I was a successful, intelligent woman, right? And so this disconnect of like, but I can do things. I can figure things out. I am able to go out there and lead and do things. And people who knew me in the workplace,

Kathi Lipp (05:57.835)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:08.919)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:12.802)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dana K White (06:18.969)

never thought I was a horrible disorganized mess at home. people would tell me they were very surprised to find that out about me. And so it becomes this shameful secret that you wanna hide. And then also makes you feel bad about yourself. Because you’re like, this seems to be easy for everybody else in the world. This doesn’t make sense with who I am. Right, so anyway, I think that’s where a lot of that shame comes from is that disconnect.

Kathi Lipp (06:25.474)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (06:29.6)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:41.324)

Yes.

Dana K White (06:43.031)

of I can do things, but I for some reason cannot do this thing. Like of all things, this is the thing I can’t do. What? Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (06:50.122)

Right, and let me just affirm so much of what you’re saying. Cluttery people are the most creative people I have encountered. They are intelligent and they are incredibly kind. Like they would give you anything that they could find in their house if they could find it. And so, yeah, so.

Dana K White (07:06.247)

Yes.

Dana K White (07:13.23)

And they brought it into their house thinking of what your needs might be in the future. Right? Like, and I think that’s where so much of the disconnect comes in. You know, I mean, we’re gonna, you my new book is spiritually focused. My other books have no spiritual content in them, right? But this, the idea that,

Kathi Lipp (07:18.208)

It’s so true. It is so true.

Kathi Lipp (07:28.632)

Right.

Dana K White (07:35.741)

people are collecting that they have clutter because they’ve been collecting things out of greed or selfishness is just not true. And so when somebody’s coming at it from that angle of like, okay, well, you need to be less greedy and less selfish. Well, like you said, you know, in your experience working with people who struggle with clutter, they are not greedy or selfish. That is not the reason that this clutter is here. And so then if people are coming at it trying to be helpful from that angle, then I already feel misunderstood.

Kathi Lipp (07:41.868)

No, it’s not.

Kathi Lipp (07:53.75)

Mm-hmm. No, no.

Dana K White (08:05.243)

I already feel like you don’t get it, so therefore you’re not gonna be able to help me. And so then that’s where it becomes even more shameful when you feel like, okay, I think I’m doomed to this.

Kathi Lipp (08:05.303)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:16.566)

Yes, absolutely. There’s no way out. I’m going to be like this for the rest of my life because I’ve tried everything and it doesn’t work. And you know, when you I love what you were saying there because oftentimes I would bring things into my house and or I would ignore messes in my house because I was out there in the world doing so much and then my house would get the last bit of attention because I was

Dana K White (08:25.553)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (08:46.87)

I was giving everything away out in the world. And I felt like I had to do that because of this shame. so it’s this, it’s this piling on top of each other, on top of each other. And it’s heartbreaking for so many people. And so, okay, I, here’s what I want to do. I want to take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to understand what, what does Jesus think about this? What does God think about this? Because

You know, I think about verses about put all things in order and things, you know, God is a God of order. We see that everywhere. But, and then when we try to reconcile that with who we are, man, the shame can just, it can even go deeper. So we’re gonna take a quick break, listen to a couple of commercials, pay a couple of bills, and then we’re gonna come back and Dana is going to lay it all out for us, friends. Okay, we’ll be right back.

Okay, I am back with Dana K. White. And first of all, I love the title of your new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House. But Dana, my people are gonna say, yes, He does. Because God is a God of order. know, God wants us to be hospitable and bring people into our spaces. So like, Dana, you are telling us untruths.

Dana K White (10:07.859)

Okay, so yeah, but I mean it. Like I absolutely mean that, that Jesus doesn’t. No, I’m glad you brought up, because it is a reaction, right? Like it’s not what I thought, but I’m like, here’s what I, the title is not, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House So Don’t Bother. Like that’s not at all the title, right? The title is meant.

Kathi Lipp (10:11.51)

Do you love that I called you a liar right here on the podcast?

It is, right?

Kathi Lipp (10:32.514)

Yeah.

Dana K White (10:35.275)

And I mean what I say because nothing I do gets me closer to God, right? Like I do not earn his love. He is looking at my heart. And when He’s looking at my heart, especially because He created my brain on purpose, it’s not defective, it was not a mistake.

that He made me in a way that physical stuff tends to get out of control more easily for me than for someone else, right? That’s not a mistake. So when He’s looking at me, He’s like, I know that, right? I know this is a struggle. It doesn’t mean that I don’t work on it, but it doesn’t mean that it has any effect whatsoever on my relationship with Jesus, right? Because when God looks at me, if I am a follower of Jesus, He’s seeing Jesus’ righteousness on me. And if I think that,

Kathi Lipp (11:23.862)

Right.

Dana K White (11:32.775)

that He’s seeing me and what I, you know, have accomplished and what I have done and that that’s getting me toward Him, then I don’t actually get what He’s looking for, right? And so then that’s actually what I wouldn’t say frustrates, but you know what I mean? Like that’s the thing that keeps me from God, is not understanding what it is that He’s actually asking of me. So it’s very important to understand that because so many times over the years, right?

Kathi Lipp (11:42.669)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (11:49.078)

Right.

Dana K White (12:01.768)

is people can say things like, but God is a God of order. But the Proverbs 31 woman, you know, she wasn’t lazy. And you’re like, okay, but

Kathi Lipp (12:08.024)

Yeah, gosh, yeah.

Dana K White (12:15.299)

let’s have the full conversation there. Let’s have the full conversation about Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. It doesn’t mean that you don’t worry about it, but you don’t worry about it as a way to please God, right? And so when we take that shame away, because for me, I assumed when I started this whole deslobification process, I was like, I thought that at some point, God was going to show me the verse I had missed, or the spiritual concept that I had not understood, and I was going to go,

Kathi Lipp (12:17.196)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (12:28.557)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (12:35.192)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (12:44.667)

Okay, now it’s all easy, right? Like I thought I was missing something spiritually. And instead He said, Dana, I have never been upset about your messy house. I want you to give Me your heart, like all of you to use as I see fit, right? And so give Me everything, but not as a way to earn Jesus’ love, right? And so it’s this thing of removing that shame.

Kathi Lipp (12:47.83)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (12:58.35)

Hmm.

Dana K White (13:13.115)

And removing the shame is actually the thing that allows me to move forward. Like we were talking about, like shame is such an issue. It’s so debilitating. Shame is not motivating at all. It is not. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (13:19.266)

Yes, it is not. And shame is not going to change you in the positive and it’s not gonna change anybody you love. Because I’m sure so many of us who are listening here were shamed about our messy rooms, were shamed about our backpacks in school. I remember, I haven’t remembered this in 40 years, but I remember a teacher bringing me to the front of class.

Dana K White (13:30.653)

Yes.

Dana K White (13:36.403)

Yep.

Kathi Lipp (13:48.16)

and making me unpack my backpack. Like I have repressed that, right? Right?

Dana K White (13:52.275)

makes me wanna cry because I, well, and here’s the thing. I understand that they think they’re being helpful, right? Like I understand that. And yet, and yet it backfires because you, I’m assuming, felt very misunderstood, right? Because if the teacher thought that was gonna help you, then they didn’t understand the problem. And it’s not like you loved having a messy backpack, right? I did not like any of my messy spaces.

Kathi Lipp (14:00.3)

Right. And yet.

Kathi Lipp (14:12.119)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (14:16.766)

Right. No, no.

Dana K White (14:22.001)

but for you to come in and say, you know, this is, that God is a God of order. Well, that doesn’t actually give me anything to go on. Like it doesn’t help at all. Besides the fact, I’m just gonna say real quick that the God is a God of order.

Kathi Lipp (14:30.423)

Right.

Dana K White (14:37.209)

The actual context there of when that phrase is said in the Bible is talking about how to run a meeting at church. Right? And I just want to be clear, like, that’s actually my superpower. I am really good at running meetings. Like, like you could ask me to run a meeting of world leaders. And while I might be a little intimidated, I would absolutely be like, well, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (14:54.03)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:03.619)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (15:05.843)

because guess what I’m really good at? I’m good at that. Well, here’s the problem. If I do understand that context and I go, I am really good at this thing and God is a God of order. this is my way to please God, right? I’m off track. I’m off track. And so either way that you go and you hear a lot of, I’ve heard the, you know, the message of this book from the other perspective of like, okay, I couldn’t stop cleaning.

Kathi Lipp (15:20.076)

Right? Yeah.

Dana K White (15:34.125)

And God finally showed me that I never cared about your messy house and so it’s okay to relax and let people see imperfection. And I’m like, that’s truth. However, that is not truth that is helpful for me. Because I would hear that story and I would think, well, I would sure love to have that problem. And so what about for me as the person who felt defective and, you know,…

Kathi Lipp (15:34.125)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (15:43.116)

Yeah. Yes.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (15:52.832)

Yes. Yes.

Dana K White (16:00.879)

had so much shame, like how does this apply to me? And that’s what this book is. It’s like, how do we apply that to this? As I was never looking at that, whether it’s you’re obsessed with a perfection or you’re, you know, feel completely overwhelmed and not able to do it. taking away that shame is the thing that allows us to move forward. I feel like I’ve been rambling. I’m sorry. You can stop me.

Kathi Lipp (16:21.12)

No, you are not rambling. You are spitting truth, my friend. You are spitting truth. And you know, I have a lot of people on this podcast and we can’t always talk this deeply about the concepts because either they have not experienced it like you and I have, or they’re still figuring it. But when we start to see, it’s two sides of the same problem.

when somebody has a house that is so clean that you don’t want to sit down because I just yesterday saw on TikTok a woman who said, yeah, we don’t sit on our couch with outside clothes. And I’m like, what’s outside clothes? And literally it was her husband’s jeans. He looked like he might be an engineer or something like that. So that’s one side of the issue. And then this other where,

Dana K White (17:09.489)

hilarious yeah

Kathi Lipp (17:17.504)

I think what people think is that people who struggle with clutter struggle with this mess are are lazy. And here’s the thing I don’t I have not met anybody with this problem who is lazy. I have met people who struggle they don’t know what the next step is. Maybe they’re on the spectrum with ADHD or they’re depressed like I’ve met a lot of people

who have these auxiliary situations, I’ve yet to meet the lazy person.

Dana K White (17:52.947)

Yeah, and that’s the thing is, when you Google, is cleanliness next to godliness in the Bible, right? There’s all these different blurbs and even if you don’t go and actually read any of them, the vast majority will say no, but the concept is true and then they will mention the Proverbs 31 woman. Well, guess what is not in Proverbs 31? What is never mentioned? Cleanliness, the state of her home,

Kathi Lipp (18:00.994)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (18:13.486)

Mmm.

Dana K White (18:22.355)

clutter, nothing. Nothing is even mentioned. So I go through the whole Proverbs 31 verse by verse and I’m like, it’s not here, but…

Kathi Lipp (18:28.066)

Yeah. Yes.

Dana, are you telling me that the Proverbs 31 girl is our girl? Like, could she be our girl?

Dana K White (18:38.223)

I’m gonna tell you something. She reminds me of the people who have clutter, right? Like, because she is so focused on other people, she is so industrious, she works hard all the time. I’m like, you know, it’s like when people talk about, well, the Mary and Martha thing and blah, blah. And I’m like, guess who I relate more to? The busy one.

Kathi Lipp (18:44.524)

Yes! Yes!

Kathi Lipp (18:58.341)

mm-hmm. Right, absolutely.

Dana K White (19:01.841)

Right, like I relate more to her. The people I know who don’t have clutter issues tend to be able to relax in those situations a lot more than me. And so I’m like, it’s this thing where there’s assumptions that if your house is messy, it’s because you’re lazy. And then knowing that that’s not true and yet not being able to convince anyone that that’s not true because the state of your home makes everybody, so you know, it’s like this bad thing of like, we have to get in there and we have to speak the truth about this. And like, I really do like.

Kathi Lipp (19:08.983)

Yes!

Dana K White (19:29.849)

She reminds me of the women who I know and possibly myself even in certain situations, but like the women I know who are the go-to woman that everybody depends on, that everybody looks to to be able to organize any event and do anything. And yet you don’t know what her house actually looks like. And so I’m not saying she was messy. I’m just saying that’s not helpful because it’s not actually in there. Like don’t use her as this.

Kathi Lipp (19:32.174)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:45.792)

Yes.

Dana K White (19:57.085)

thing to aspire to, because anyway, again, shame is not motivating. It’s not helpful.

Kathi Lipp (20:01.228)

I love what you’re saying. And what you’re saying is all these things that we’ve heard before, what is actually helpful in that? That’s the question. And it’s also the question with my clutter oftentimes, what’s actually helpful in here? But with this truth, what is actually helpful? So tell me, what is actually helpful?

Dana K White (20:09.607)

Yes. Yes.

Dana K White (20:14.973)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:26.188)

when it comes to motivating me to get decluttered, motivating my listener to get decluttered.

Dana K White (20:26.556)

Yeah.

Dana K White (20:32.125)

So once the shame is gone, then we can actually do stuff, right? Like we can actually do the things. Although I’m a big fan of going ahead and doing the thing and that’s actually what helps the shame be gone, right? Is that. So like I have my no mess decluttering process and we start with trash, right? And that’s one of those things that sometimes, I mean, you’re an author so you know reviews can be wonderful and awful, right? I choose to view bad reviews as good as long as they actually like give some real information. Like if they say,

Kathi Lipp (20:34.798)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:42.455)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:54.286)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (21:01.217)

Guess.

Dana K White (21:01.861)

when people say stuff like, can’t believe people need to be told to start with trash, who has trash? And I’m like, well, guess what? Now the person who read that review knows that this book is actually what they need, right? So yeah, and so like starting with the trash, like this is the stuff that somebody who would never even think to just randomly set down, you know, a string cheese wrapper as opposed to putting it in the trash, like I have no idea that that thing left my hand, right?

Kathi Lipp (21:12.192)

It’s so true.

Kathi Lipp (21:31.36)

Right, absolutely.

Dana K White (21:31.439)

And so we start with the trash, we go through the process. How do we start? We start with the very, very easiest decision-free stuff, right? So like trash is actual trash. It’s not, I’m not gonna convince you that it’s trash. We’re not gonna call your mom and say, would you say this is trash? I’m not gonna analyze what my mom would say if she was here. It’s all just like the actual trash. And if I’m helping you and I’m like, how do they not see that’s trash?

Kathi Lipp (21:51.758)

Right.

Dana K White (22:01.437)

I’m not gonna say anything, because we will get to it over the course of the process, right? But it’s that how do we actually help? We give real actual strategies where I don’t consider, and I don’t know how you view this, but like for me, because I was doing figuring this out in my own home and what was helpful for me and what wasn’t, it is actually not helpful for me as a highly creative person to ask myself if I’ll ever use something. Like, because I can come up with a reason.

Kathi Lipp (22:05.442)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (22:26.029)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (22:30.574)

goodness, I was just consulting with somebody today and she’s like, I don’t know why I keep this and I said, because your brain can come up with 700 possible uses, none of which you probably will ever do. But you could. Yeah.

Dana K White (22:38.429)

Yes, right, right.

Dana K White (22:43.899)

And if I focus on what, if I could ever use it, then all my mental energy is going toward all these possibilities. And that’s not actually helpful. Like nothing is happening here in this situation. So instead I start with trash and then I ask myself my real defining decluttering question is if I needed this item, where would I look for it first? Right? So there’s no, there’s no like, is it a good thing? That’s all good. Cause why would I have it in my house if it wasn’t right? So, you know, but if I needed this item, where would I look for it first?

Kathi Lipp (22:52.438)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (23:01.888)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:07.2)

Yeah, exactly.

Dana K White (23:14.131)

And that’s not where would it be? Like those are two different questions. Because if I already know where it would be, it left in step two, which is dealing with the stuff that I already know what to do with it, right? So by the time I’m asking myself the question, where would I look for this earring? Okay, cause I took them out cause they were banging on my headphone things. Yeah. But if I was asking myself, you know, where would I look first for these earrings? If I needed these earrings.

Kathi Lipp (23:24.098)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (23:29.836)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you.

Dana K White (23:43.119)

It is literally an answer, an instinctual answer. I may not trust my instincts yet, but that’s how I’m gonna learn to trust them, right? If I needed my earrings, where would I look for them first? And it’s wherever I would picture myself going at the beginning of what I assume is gonna be a three hour search for my earrings, right? And so where’s the first, what’s the drawer that I would open? What’s the cabinet I would walk to?

Kathi Lipp (23:45.56)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:54.509)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (24:04.065)

Mmm, where’s the first step?

Yeah, right.

Dana K White (24:11.879)

where is the first place where I look? And then I take them there right now. I don’t set them aside to do later or put it in a keep box that I’ll go put everything, because then I would have to go back through these questions again, right? So that’s, even though it feels less efficient to take it there now, that’s actually the transformational step, right? So I’m gonna take it there now and I’m gonna face the reality of that space. Is there any room for these?

Kathi Lipp (24:16.919)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:23.563)

Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:33.848)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (24:38.294)

It’s a great question. Yeah.

Dana K White (24:38.331)

And if there’s not, if there’s not any room for them, then what am I willing to get rid of in order to make the room for these? And if I’m not willing to get rid of anything, then these actually aren’t as important to me and I can let them go, right? But I’m gonna face that reality when I get to that space because I took it there now and I acted on that and I’m gonna base everything in actual facts outside of the things I could come up with.

Kathi Lipp (24:46.573)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (25:03.757)

Yes.

Dana K White (25:06.639)

Because the creativity, yes, it’s my superpower, it’s also my downfall, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (25:10.99)

It’s your kryptonite. It’s your superpower and your kryptonite and we don’t want to squash the creativity in these beautiful human beings who God created that way, but we also want you to be able to function in your house and

Dana K White (25:28.261)

Exactly. Well, and I hear from people all the time, because I say all the time, I’m like, you can keep anything, but you can’t keep everything. Right. And so, and people are like, okay, well, cause I thought you were going to come in here and you were going to tell me this was dumb and that was bad and this should go and you shouldn’t have this. And so I’m raring to go. Like I’ve got all these reasons, you know, why I should keep all this stuff. And when you tell me, you can keep anything. You just can’t keep everything. Then I’m like,

Kathi Lipp (25:33.654)

Mm-hmm. It’s so true.

Kathi Lipp (25:46.03)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:51.094)

Right? Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (25:58.885)

Okay, it’s just a shift in your brain that it makes a huge, huge difference.

Kathi Lipp (25:59.981)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (26:04.193)

The way I say it is there’s no morality in keeping or giving that thing away. These things are morally neutral, but what’s gonna serve your life? What’s going to bring you happiness? What’s gonna make you function better? Those are the things that we wanna keep in your house, but we also have to be able to find those things when we need them. And yeah.

Dana K White (26:11.027)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (26:26.919)

Right, which is what happens when you put it in the first place where you would look for it. Then you find it, right? Yeah, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (26:30.922)

It’s, which is brilliant. Yes. I love that so much. How has understanding this changed your life? mean, I know you have this big business, you’re on YouTube, you write the book, but like your life and your home, what is the biggest difference for you now that shame is not the go-to feeling with everything going on in your

Dana K White (26:57.651)

Yeah, so the shame went away as I was working on my house, but as I was working my house, I was realizing that Jesus didn’t care about my messy house, right? Like, there, you know, I always say that’s, I’ve kind of earned the right to write a book called Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House because I’ve written three books about how to keep, get your house under control, you know? So it’s like, I’m not, no, only people who don’t understand and who don’t pay attention can accuse me of saying that it doesn’t matter.

Kathi Lipp (27:09.548)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (27:14.573)

Guess.

Kathi Lipp (27:19.883)

Right?

Dana K White (27:27.217)

Right? I know it matters and I know it matters to the person who’s struggling. Right? What was the question? I don’t know. just… Welcome to my brain.

Kathi Lipp (27:27.714)

Right.

Absolutely. What, Dana, we are so, no wonder our friends keep saying you guys need to hang out together because we are exactly the same person in different fonts. What in your life, now that the shame is not the first thought, like what, what can either you see or the people who live with you see as the biggest difference?

Dana K White (27:41.938)

Right.

Dana K White (27:48.307)

Okay, yeah.

Dana K White (27:58.321)

We can function. So the stuff is not all gone, but it’s, I’ve embraced the reality of my space, right? Like that’s my big thing is like, just embrace the reality of your space. And if I try to keep more stuff than I have space for it, then there’s no hope of my house being under control, right? So the fact that our lives are not inhibited by the state of my home.

Kathi Lipp (27:59.778)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:03.959)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (28:07.65)

Nya.

Kathi Lipp (28:11.682)

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (28:15.757)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:20.59)

Hmm

Yes.

Dana K White (28:23.481)

That is the thing, like, cause you know, you said I write books, I do YouTube. That’s the kind of stuff I like doing. I thought when I started all this, that my goal was to have like a, of course, Pinterest didn’t exist, but you know, like a magazine picture home. Like I just assumed that’s what I want. I love those images. And yet in reality, what I really wanted to do was not be held back by my house. I wanted to be able to be the person who can

Kathi Lipp (28:28.397)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:36.428)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:48.045)

Yeah.

Dana K White (28:52.345)

volunteer at the actual last moment to host something in my home because somebody else’s power went out and there was a plan, you know, for the prom girls to get ready there. And I’m like, you can do it at my house. You know, like, that is something I never could do before, but it was the person I wanted to be. I wanted to be that kind of mom who was like, sure, yes, bring them bring everybody over here. And yet my house was in a state where I couldn’t do that. And to have people over was a two week ordeal.

Kathi Lipp (29:00.866)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (29:04.685)

Right?

Dana K White (29:22.175)

where I would shove everything into the room, the door would lock, and then I would actually clean because I couldn’t have, you know, I wasn’t able to clean with all the clutter everywhere. So yeah, just, lets me be who I wanna be.

Kathi Lipp (29:31.478)

Yeah. You know, and it’s so interesting because yeah, people push back on, you know, my ideas about decluttering all the time. But 20 years ago, I could not have been that person. And last week we had some clients show up and they said, we were so dumb. We booked our hotel room an hour and a half in the opposite direction. Like, well, just spend the night. And they’re like, what? I’m like, yeah, just spend the night. We’re fine. And like,

It didn’t until later that night. I didn’t realize the transformation and the girls coming over and getting ready for prom like to other people That would just be a Tuesday, but for us it says our whole lives have changed and It’s possible. That’s what I want people to hear One Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. I love the the title of your book and guys we’ll have a link to that

Dana K White (30:17.405)

Exactly, Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (30:30.402)

where you can get it at, you know, Amazon or wherever you love to buy books. But also the thing I want you to hear from what Dana has said, what I am saying is this shame free life is possible. You can be the person that invites people into your home. You can be the person who has a last minute overnight guest. You can be the person who says I can volunteer for that.

because I’m not abandoning my home, my home functions, and that makes the rest of my life possible. And it’s how Jesus wants us to live. It’s not about the state of your home, it’s about how you can function in the world with the home you have. And Dana, I love this so much. I traditionally do not read other decluttering books because I…

Dana K White (31:24.359)

Me neither.

Kathi Lipp (31:25.366)

I don’t want to be accused of stealing Dana Kay or Fly Lady or anything like that. But this one I’m going to read because I came in with the questions about how are you going to support this thesis? And I love what you said here because there’s such freedom and it’s such practical freedom too. I love that so much. Dana, thank you so much for being here today.

Dana K White (31:27.591)

I am the exact same way, yes, yep.

Okay, thank you.

Dana K White (31:49.021)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on and I’m just so honored and excited that we finally got to meet.

Kathi Lipp (31:54.342)

I love it. It’s the beginning of a beautiful clutter free relationship. And I love that so much with a little bit of sass, a little bit of mess, because you know what? That’s okay. That’s how I function best. And I know that’s how you function best too. We’re never going to be that Pinterest Martha Stewart. And you know what? God didn’t want us to be that way. And that’s why we are who we are. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life.

Dana K White (31:58.674)

Ha ha!

Dana K White (32:06.428)

Yeah.

Dana K White (32:14.29)

No.

Kathi Lipp (32:24.14)

You’ve always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

Jun 24, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

Jun 17, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Low Buy July, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

Jun 10, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#656 When Opposites Attract: Managing Different Clutter Levels in Marriage

by Roger Lipp | Feb 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Marriage, Organizing, Podcast, Relationships | 0 comments

#656 When Opposites Attract: Managing Different Clutter Levels in Marriage

Listen Now

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Arlene Pellicane to discuss the delicate balance of managing different organizational styles within marriage. If you’re struggling with a spouse who has different standards of tidiness, this episode offers practical wisdom and hope.

Arlene shares four key marriage decisions that can transform your relationship, with special focus on how managing “stuff” impacts marital harmony. You’ll discover how to have productive conversations about organization without creating winners and losers in your marriage.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Making Marriage Easier

Arlene Pellicane

Clutter Free Resources:

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Meet Our Guest

Arlene Pellican

Arlene Pellicane is a speaker, author, and host of the Happy Home podcast, dedicated to helping families thrive in today’s digital age. Her books have been translated into more than ten languages, and she has appeared on numerous media outlets including the Today Show, Fox & Friends, and The 700 Club. As the spokesperson for National Marriage Week and a former features reporter, Arlene brings her expertise to audiences nationwide through keynotes and workshops for businesses, schools, churches, and ministries. She holds degrees from Biola University and Regent University, and lives in San Diego with her husband James of more than 25 years, their three children, and their Goldendoodle, Winston.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:00)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And guys, we have a very special episode. It sounds like we’re doing an after-school special, but it is a very special episode of Clutter-Free Academy. You see, because, you know, it’s the stuff.

but oftentimes when we are struggling with this stuff, it’s not about the stuff. It’s about what the stuff represents. It’s about the relationships around the stuff. And today we’re gonna get a little help with that. This is my dear long, long friend. I don’t wanna say old friend because she’s younger than I am and has kids younger than I do, but we have been friends for a really long time. Her name is Arlene Pelican and guys,

Arlene Pellicane (00:39)
Long, I like that.

Kathi Lipp (00:49)
She is a phenomenal writer and speaker. And I wanna talk to her today. We’re talking about clutter, but we’re talking about it in the midst of relationship. And we’re focusing on her new book, Making Marriage Easier, How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life. First of all, Arlene, welcome back to the program you’ve been on before. I’m so grateful to have you back. Thank you so much for coming down.

Arlene Pellicane (01:17)
I’m so happy to be with you, my long friend. I like that. I like this long friend. So much better than old friend.

Kathi Lipp (01:19)
Long friend Yes, we don’t want to say old or aged

yeah, so I just have to ask are you a parks and rec fan by any chance?

Arlene Pellicane (01:32)
Okay, well, this is embarrassing. I am not, which I’m sure now people, don’t, I’m sorry, I don’t watch it. It’s not that I don’t like it. I just don’t watch it. So then people will be like, well now we cannot listen to anything that she has to say.

Kathi Lipp (01:43)
No,

it’s okay. I just thought did she get the title? Her subtitle from parks and rec

Arlene Pellicane (01:50)
See? So now

we know for a fact that it came from my own brain.

Kathi Lipp (01:54)
Yes, okay, it did come from your own

brain, but I am really going to encourage you. Roger and I have a poster that we held up at a wedding and it says, I love you and I like you. And that’s the two main characters. It’s one of my top three favorite shows ever. Feel free to skip over the first, like, I don’t know, season. Okay, that’s terrible. Yeah, yeah, start in season two, it’s fine.

Arlene Pellicane (02:10)
Yes. Okay, I will need to do that. Yes.

Yeah, like tell me, which season should I start in?

But I love you and I like you.

Kathi Lipp (02:24)
But

I love you and I like you and it just makes me happy. So I just had to get that out of the way. here’s the thing, I would do anything to watch it again for the first time. So here’s my gift to you. You get to watch it for the first time. yeah, well, okay. So this is really interesting because you know me, you know Roger and I both love and really like him. But I would say, I would venture to say,

Arlene Pellicane (02:29)
I love that.

Yes, this is fantastic.

Kathi Lipp (02:54)
that for many people I know that that is not the case. that what you would say? You’ve been in this, okay, so tell me more about that. Is it that, do you think that’s changed over the years or do you think that it’s always been like that and sometimes we just had to put up with it? Like, what’s your take on that? And guys, we are gonna talk about clutter, but I think this is foundational to what we’re talking about.

Arlene Pellicane (03:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we hear it more often now than before because I think the emphasis now in marriage is more on like, do you please me? Do you, you know, what do you do for me? And then it’s like, well, you, I don’t really like you very much because you didn’t do very much for me. Where I think in years past, it wasn’t so much like, do you please me? It was more like, hey, we’re a team and we’re in it to win it let’s do this thing. You know, so it wasn’t so much this inspection of, do I like you still?

Kathi Lipp (03:32)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (03:51)
You know, so I do think that is a more recent thing because we are just more self-centered as a society. We’re not as much like service oriented. Just think of, you know, volunteer organizations, for instance, that people used to go to things to whatever Lions Club, Kiwanis Club, whatever, to volunteer. You see a decline in that. And I think you can see that in marriages. Like we’re not so much there to serve one another, to be a team together. more like, well, as long as you’re good for me. Great.

Kathi Lipp (03:51)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (04:21)
but when you stop being good for me, not so much. And I think that’s what kind of has introduced us to this language of like, well, I don’t like you very much. So having said that, it is this, the reason I use that phrasing is yes, when I married James, same like you and Roger, like of course I liked him. Like obviously you like him more than anyone else in the whole worldwide world. That’s why you got married in the first place. So you’re like crazy and like with this person and then you’re married, whether it’s a year or 50 years.

Kathi Lipp (04:38)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (04:49)
And there are times where they do things that makes you think like, I do not like you very much. And I think that a lot of people that people can relate to, and I think that’s kind of normal. So one of the things that I have done is when I think to myself, well, you are being nitpicky, you know, to me, and I don’t like you very much, then I’ll think to myself, well, you probably don’t like me very much either in this moment, which is true, right? Like you’re both not liking each other at that exact moment. But to realize, you know what, we’re human.

Kathi Lipp (05:12)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (05:19)
And in any friendship, this happens too, where there’s just a moment where you’re like, hey, I didn’t really like that very much. But then you get over that and you just continue. And it’s the same thing in marriage that, hey, I’m not going to like you every minute of the day. I am going to love you. That’s my commitment. But what can I do in my marriage? How can I take out the emotional baggage, the clutter, the wrong things, the wrong soundtracks in my mind so that I can actually like you more than I can like you more often?

Kathi Lipp (05:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (05:48)
And

much of that has to do with rhythms that you’re actually connecting that it’s like, I do like you. I have time and I’m realizing on this date that I actually do like you. You are actually still funny. So it’s trying to give you more opportunities to rediscover that you really do like each other.

Kathi Lipp (06:00)
Ehh

Well, and I think that there’s a difference between I didn’t like that and I do like you. You know, it’s like I didn’t like how that conversation went. I didn’t like and so it’s very easy to turn that that phrasing into I don’t like when you do that instead of I don’t like how that went or I, you know, so to take mutual ownership oftentimes. But I do think, you know,

Arlene Pellicane (06:09)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (06:35)
I grew up in a church where it was all about women pleasing men because the framework was men have it so hard. You have no idea how hard men have it being the leaders. And so it’s all up to us to make sure they’re happy. And I think some of it’s healthy to say, no, thank you. No, we’re not doing that anymore because what everybody is doing is hard.

Arlene Pellicane (06:49)
Yep.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (07:03)
and is beyond themselves. And we need for both sides to go beyond themselves, to not be selfish and to say, I’m going to love you. And what that requires is beyond what’s comfortable for me sometimes, but we’re gonna do it. yeah, yes.

Arlene Pellicane (07:19)
Isn’t it interesting how it like swings? Like it would swing

like, okay, I must serve you because you have such a hard life and it becomes like too heavy one way. But then now we swung it the other way where we’re like, we’re not going to support a man because a man, you know, he’s been, I’m going to fend for myself as a woman. And we swing the other way, like serve me because do you have no idea how hard it is to be working and to be a mom and to make this dinner and all these things. And it is kind of that in the middle, right? That’s serving one another where you realize, Hey, everyone.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (07:48)
has like stuff to do and everyone needs that support.

Kathi Lipp (07:50)
Right.

And we need to be able to recognize that in each other. In your book, you talk about four key marriage decisions. Can you give me an overview of what they are? And then we’re going to dive deep. I want to talk about stuff because I, know, Jesus talks more about money and possessions than anything else in the New Testament. So he knew this was going to be a point of contention.

Arlene Pellicane (07:56)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Stuff.

Kathi Lipp (08:20)
So when we, we’ll get into the stuff of it, but let’s talk about these four key marriage decisions and why they’re so important.

Arlene Pellicane (08:20)
Yes.

Yeah.

The first decision, and these were, you James and I have been married for 25 years and we’ve been happily married and it was like, why is this working? Kind of this thought, like, what is it? We’re not superheroes. We’re human. We have fights. Like, why is this working? Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)
Yeah.

Okay, I want to say something to that because

I think it’s the exception. We were just at dinner with somebody on Saturday night and they said, we can’t believe your marriage. And I’m like, and here’s the thing, I think that they have a good marriage. I think that they have a happy marriage, but it really is the exception, isn’t it?

Arlene Pellicane (09:02)
You know, you can feel that way because you think like, no one’s talking like this. But my hope is, you know, with making marriage easier and with different things that more and more people will be able to say this. And hopefully there are more people who feel this way who we’re just not meeting. they’re out there. We just didn’t have dinner with them. That’s all.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Yeah, I hope so. Yes, let’s hope so.

So you’ve had 25 years of a happy marriage.

Arlene Pellicane (09:23)
Yeah. Yeah. So these

decisions, so it’s kind of like, like dissect this, like what have we done? So decision number one is play by the rules. And this is the idea of fighting fair, of not following your feelings, but following God’s commands. And you know, you think in Psalm one, it’s saying blessed is the man who delights in the law of the Lord. It’s kind of weird. It’s not like that they loved God. They love the law of the Lord. I love the rules of God. I love

Kathi Lipp (09:30)
Okay.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (09:53)
the way God orders things. And that’s what, when you play by the rules and you say, I love how God has made marriage and I want to honor these rules, I’m going to play by them. So what does this look like? You know, it means I’m not going to have adultery. I’m not going to steal something from you. I’m not going to lie to you. You know, you’re playing by the rules. You know, one of our rules is we call the power hour and that’s simply the rule of having a meal every day together.

Kathi Lipp (10:01)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:18)
It’s not legalistic.

It’s not like, you’re not here, but I’m hungry, so I can’t eat. It’s not like that, but it’s just the rhythm. Like every day, unless someone’s traveling or someone has a weird appointment, we’re gonna eat together. So there are certain rules and rhythms that you’ll say, you know, something like, I’m not gonna eat, I’m not gonna be with someone of the opposite sex alone over coffee or dinner. You know, things like that, that these are, play by these rules. So that’s the first decision. The second one is, I will give thanks every day.

Kathi Lipp (10:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:47)
So it’s making a home based on gratitude that that’s the stuff that’s important, right? To be thankful versus look what I don’t have. Look what I don’t have. I don’t have this marriage. I don’t have the good couch. Like this is ridiculous. So don’t that, that will tear down your home. So give thanks every day. The third thing decision is to serve your spouse. You know, people are, I don’t want to serve my spouse. They’re going to treat me like a doormat. That’s so outdated. But this is the idea of instead of a

Kathi Lipp (10:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (11:15)
approaching your marriage like, well, what have you done for me lately? Because boy, that sounds like a lot of fun. Be like, do I have to like tap and do a tap dance to make you happy? know, what have you done for me lately? Instead of that, we say, how can I make your life easier? You know, how can, what can I do for you today? So that attitude of service, all of a sudden, now you’re empowered to serve your spouse and do something good versus just inspecting and being disappointed at what you didn’t get, right? And then the fourth,

Kathi Lipp (11:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (11:44)
And final decision is to have, be serious about fun. Take fun seriously. So you had fun and that’s why you got married because even going to the grocery store or to the bank with your beloved when you were dating was fun because you were together, right? It was just like, yay, we’re together. We’re getting an oil change and this is so much fun because we’re in the car together, you know? So what happens when you’re married, you’re like, that’s extra. Like we can’t have fun. We don’t have money for that. We don’t have time for that.

Kathi Lipp (11:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (12:14)
So forget it, we don’t have fun. And then what happens? It’s like, we don’t have anything in common anymore because we never have fun. So it’s very important to say, my goodness, I should save money for that little excursion. I should put aside time to have date night because I actually need to laugh with you. And that’s something you and Roger do so well and so often, right? Is you make each other laugh and that’s what makes marriage easier. So take your fun seriously.

Kathi Lipp (12:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I look forward, today we have to go to, our RV is stored in a nether city and we have to go and do some repairs. And I’m looking forward to it because I get to hang out with him and have conversations. And it’s the stupid stuff, but you’re right. know, anything can be fun when it’s approached in the right way. I do think it is, you know, it’s both people agreeing to meet in that space.

Arlene Pellicane (12:52)
See?

I love that. Yeah.

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:09)
And think that that’s where, you know, one person’s working on the marriage and the other one is not. And that’s where we can get into trouble and feel like we’re struggling. But it’s been interesting. One of these things I see now that is I really press against, I don’t like it, is, well, you should just do that without me having to say thank you. And I…

Arlene Pellicane (13:20)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:37)
Here’s the thing. Yes, there are some things that roger does and I probably don’t notice and I probably don’t say thank you But if he does something and I do notice there’s going to be a thank you even if it seemed Yeah, like I know some people say I shouldn’t have to say thank you for unloading the dishwasher because that’s just part of Home maintenance and yes, it is just part of home maintenance and also i’m grateful

Arlene Pellicane (13:49)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (14:06)
that he has taken that on as his mental load, I don’t ever have to worry about dishes. And I am so grateful for that. And there are things he never has to worry about, and he is grateful for that. And so I think showing up in those ways is really important, even though it goes against modern wisdom and modern convention.

Arlene Pellicane (14:09)
Yes.

Yeah.

I’m

with you on this. So think of a server in a restaurant. They are just doing what they’re supposed to be doing. They are literally paid to bring you a menu, bring you your food, be pleasant to you and refill your water. They are literally doing your duty, their duty. They owe it to you. That’s their job. So am I going to just sit there and not be grateful? Am I just going to sit there and be like, yeah, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to be doing. I’m going to say thank you. Like you brought me my meal. Thank you. And in fact, this

Kathi Lipp (14:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I… Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (14:56)
what you have said shines light on something that happened to me at a restaurant. I was eating with three of my girlfriends and we were very like nice to the server, like just normal. And she literally came up to us afterwards, almost like in tears. And she was like, she was like, you are the nicest people. You wouldn’t believe the people I serve here. They are so mean and demanding and like it’s so hard.

Kathi Lipp (15:12)
I knew exactly what you were going to say. Yep.

Arlene Pellicane (15:25)
you are really, really nice. And I couldn’t believe it. I was like, we were just acting like cordially, like it was just normal. So I think we’ve come to that place that, it’s a bad place. It’s an ugly place where we think you owe that to me. So I’m not going to give thanks for something you owe to me. And that’s like a very ugly place to be. So I think if we can do it, we see it with the server in the restaurant. So my goodness in your home, even though you’re supposed to.

Kathi Lipp (15:42)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (15:52)
drive the kids to school, you’re supposed to bring home a paycheck, you’re supposed to do the dishwasher, please do say thank you, because that really does lend to that key decision, give thanks.

Kathi Lipp (16:03)
And especially if you’re going to a restaurant Sunday after church, because waiters hate Sunday after church. And it’s like, what a reputation. We need to be the most generous, the most kind, the most, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break. And then when we come back, we’re gonna talk about one of the most often marriage testing things, and that is stuff.

Arlene Pellicane (16:10)
Yeah.

Yes, the nicest, biggest tip. Yes, most patient, very kind, use their name.

Kathi Lipp (16:31)
So we’ll take a quick break and come right back with Arlene Pelleking. Okay, guys, we are back. in your book, you talk about stuff. And you talk about some of the materialistic traps in marriage. You were telling a story about your first apartment. I love, did you really have trash bag curtains?

Arlene Pellicane (16:59)
Yes,

we really did. We’re super classy. So our first apartment was on the fourth floor in Dallas, Texas. It was no elevator. we literally with the groceries when we packed in everything, four flights of stairs in hot Dallas, we got there, you know, I mean, it’s hot there. You get it. So anyway, we’re very poor, you know, we’re new newlyweds. The place is completely empty. It has like a card table and like a bed, you know, you get it. And all this stuff is going to be garage sale things. So we had no curtains.

Kathi Lipp (17:03)
Hahaha!

No.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (17:29)
And we’re like, boy, it gets like really sunny in here. So we’re like, okay, we’re going to make curtains with these black hefty bags. So we took the black hefty bags, know, we slit them and we hung them and put little ties around them. And we’re like, wow, this really works really good to block the sun and to do the things and to give that extra shade. we’re like, this is awesome. So it was so funny because here we are with these black hefty bags and we didn’t care.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (17:56)
because it’s like we were so happy together, it didn’t matter. And then in fact, our first fight was over him inviting a neighbor to dinner. And I had told him specifically, he asked me, hey, I just met our new neighbor, can I invite him to dinner? And I was like, no, because I only had two chicken breasts, I didn’t know how to cook, I was using my George Foreman grill for the first time, like this was.

Kathi Lipp (17:57)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (18:22)
I didn’t know how to cook. I’m like, this is going to be magic. I’m going put the chicken in. It’s going to come out. It’s going be amazing. But I was so super nervous about it. So I was like, and then we have the trash bags on the wall and we eat at this card table. I’m like, no, you cannot have someone last minute for dinner. And guess who came to dinner? Walter. Yes, of course. Knocked. Came to dinner and I couldn’t believe it. So I’m just like, okay, Walter, sit here. I was super nice to Walter, of course. He ate my chicken with the black trash bags. I mean, it was great.

Kathi Lipp (18:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Of course.

Of course.

Arlene Pellicane (18:52)
And when Walter left, I was very mad at James and he was like, he bear hugged me and he’s like, I’m sorry. And like, are you sorry because I’m mad at you? Are you sorry for what you did? You know? And thankfully we have never had an unwelcome guest. We have had guests, but they’ve had more notice. So, and I’m getting a little bit looser and we do have real curtains, but you know what? It’s okay when people actually like Walter.

Kathi Lipp (19:03)
Right.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (19:16)
as he was eating my chicken. Like he doesn’t care really, he probably finds it amusing that we have that. So sometimes we think we’ve got to have this stuff to impress our friends. And I get it, there is a certain level of stuff that you do need. I think it was good that we went and we don’t have the curtains, right? We don’t have that anymore. So there is a certain level that you do need. But once you get to that level, you can kind of stop because sometimes we think, if I get that new thing,

Kathi Lipp (19:21)
Right. Right.

Mm-hmm. I’m glad you upgraded your curtains. Yes

Arlene Pellicane (19:45)
it’ll make me really happy. But then you get the new thing and you enjoy it for a month. But then it’s like, I am not that much happier. So I am not a very good like designer person. Like I love beautiful things and I like nice things, but I don’t know how to put things together, right? Like I don’t know how to make it all look like ta-da, like this. So basically our house has kind of looked the same for the last like, let’s say 20 years. It’s like all the same furniture, all the same things. Anything that’s new has come off of

Kathi Lipp (19:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:15)
Craigslist or given away by someone who is moving, et cetera. And it’s fine and it looks fine. It’s great. But it’s like, I don’t have this, it has simplified life to not have to always upgrade the sofa, upgrade the table, upgrade the thing. Kind of like, hey, let’s buy this once, let’s buy quality and then let’s never buy it again.

Kathi Lipp (20:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:35)
And that

really has helped us to kind of simplify. We don’t always have to be changing these things, buying new things. I don’t have to have a new look because now it’s gray, it’s not brown. It’s like, it’ll be brown again someday. So just kind of like have that mindset like, if I make all these changes, it really doesn’t change the quality of the relationships in the house.

Kathi Lipp (20:46)
Right?

Yeah,

you know there there’s a great reddit thread. It’s called buy it for life And you know what vacuum cleaner are you gonna buy that you just buy for life? What’s the couch that you’re gonna buy and some of them are really expensive? But some of them are not and a lot of them you can get secondhand and you’re right, you know, you may enjoy I I will admit it. I’m addicted to throw pillows. It’s a problem

Arlene Pellicane (21:04)
Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (21:25)
And I will say they bring me a lot of joy. And I’ve had to also say, I don’t think any new pillows will bring me any more joy. Because every day when I sit down in our living room, there are a few pillows, I’m like, they just make me happy. But yes, you know, there are not ones out there. I am not searching for happier pillows. you know, it’s like, don’t replace joy for joy. If you already have the joy,

Arlene Pellicane (21:42)
Yes!

Yes!

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:55)
You don’t need

to be going and looking for other joy, you know, because yeah, it is often, I’m just trying to impress somebody or I want somebody to feel this way about me when they come through the door. Okay, go ahead.

Arlene Pellicane (22:06)
I have

to, I’m thinking of something that’s so funny. So I do want to have, I do want to say, like, I don’t get a lot of joy from decorating. So that makes it easy for me not to do it. So if you’re listening and this is something you super love, you know, then it may be something you really do do for the love of it. So I don’t want to discount that. With the throw pillows, it wouldn’t it be funny if there’s certain things in your house you love so much.

Kathi Lipp (22:15)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (22:31)
but you like put them away for the day. Like if you put your throw pillows in your closet for a day and then you took them out the next day, you’d be like, my throw pillow is back. So we did this with our daughter Lucy when she was two years old. She had a favorite little doggie, Violet, the purple doggie, the leapfrog one that like talks and sings and stuff. And she loved Violet.

Kathi Lipp (22:39)
you’re back!

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (22:53)
So what we did one year is we took Violet and we put a biking helmet on Violet and a little jacket on Violet and we made it biker Violet and we wrapped it for Christmas and she opened it as a two year old on Christmas day and saw biker Violet and you could not even believe the delight that that child had. She was like, Violet and Violet had the biking helmet on and this little jacket. It was like biker.

Kathi Lipp (23:02)
You

Arlene Pellicane (23:21)
And it was the cutest thing. And I thought to myself, I am such a smart mom. I took the same present and I dressed it up for this two year old and this two year old think it’s the best thing ever. And you know what? Maybe as adults, can like, how can you dress up what you already have? How can you like put it away and then take it out so that it’s the same stuff, but you get that little thrill of like, I’ve missed you Violet or you look different Violet. So it was so funny.

Kathi Lipp (23:37)
Yeah.

Okay, I love

the violet story so much. And we kind of do this, like we’ve been given little gifts before, and it’s like stuff I really like, but I don’t necessarily want stuff out all year round. And it’s very seasonal here. You know, in San Jose, I didn’t know, and where you live too. You don’t know the difference between March 30th and October 30th. Yeah, exactly. So we’ll…

Arlene Pellicane (24:10)
Right.

November 1st. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (24:19)
We do have like a summer box has like some flag stuff, because that’s I’m born on flag day. So I get flag stuff. And I’ll put things like the little donkey my friend, Susie gave me in that box. And when I open it, I’m like, I love the donkey. But then I put it away. It’s so true. So how do you feel that having less stuff in your life can contribute to

Arlene Pellicane (24:35)
All right. Right.

Kathi Lipp (24:49)
an easier time in your marriage because I believe it can but I don’t know that people see the through line for that.

Arlene Pellicane (24:50)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes. When you have a lot of stuff, you have to manage your stuff. You have to take care of your stuff. So whether it’s taking care like I have a friend who has a boat, he’s on the boat all the time. So you kind of like for his wife, it’s kind of like the boat is the other woman. So that’s a very extreme example, like how the stuff takes a lot of time. So you have to just take that to heart. So if you have

Kathi Lipp (25:00)
Exactly.

You

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (25:24)
so much stuff and you have to organize it. Like right now, my laundry room, which has shelves, has so much stuff. So in my mind, when I go in there, it’s like, I’m so stressed out. It’s like half pantry, half like kid stuff, half activity stuff, games, it’s everything. So I know I need to take time, a good swath of time, and go through all of that. Now, if that is multiplied all throughout my house and I keep piling more on,

Kathi Lipp (25:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (25:51)
then I have more and more time that I have to spend to organize it versus if I actually did think from here on out, and this is a work in progress, buy it once, keep it, buy quality, you and maybe when I look at a new thing to be like, do I really need that new clutter that’s gonna be like another thing for me to have to find a place for? And maybe then I say, no, I’m not gonna buy that, because I know my laundry room is packed and I don’t need that. So what does that do?

Well, it frees me up my headspace, frees my headspace from worrying about it. It frees me up two hours on a Saturday where I would have to like manage my things. Now I can go out and have ice cream with my husband or my kids. So I do think it is a time issue of the time that you spend buying it, figuring out where do I put it, and then figuring out where do I store it, then figuring out do I want it or not want it, all those things, you know, they take time. So the less…

Kathi Lipp (26:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (26:47)
you have to do that, then the more time you have to spend, the less time you have to spend organizing your garage and the more time you can be riding bikes with your kids or doing whatever, you know. So it is a good concept. mean, please don’t hear me and think I’m like this minimalist guru. We have stuff coming out of our ears because I do, I like to keep things, you know, my middle daughter, she’s very minimalist. She can do it. She can look at something, she’ll get a trophy.

Kathi Lipp (26:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (27:14)
tennis trophy on Tuesday, it’s in the trash on Friday. You know what I mean? Like she’ll be like, I got it. That was great. I don’t really need this. Where I’ll be like, well, I’m going to keep that for a few years, you know? So there, she’s very like, I don’t need that. Like she’s very minimalist. Like I enjoyed it and I’m going to get rid of it. And I’m more of the like, it’s a treasure. Like I will keep it. So, you know, we’re all across this, this spectrum of how we view our stuff.

Kathi Lipp (27:17)
Wow.

Wow.

Arlene Pellicane (27:43)
But I think when it comes acquiring right now more, that this is a good time where we can say, you know what, less is probably better. You know, I’ve read something from Mickalyn Smith, the nester, and she said that the most luxurious room in my home is my bedroom because it’s completely clutter free. It’s just like the bed and these like very minimalistic decor and my clothes. And she just talks about luxury is needing less.

Kathi Lipp (27:51)
Yeah.

You have.

Arlene Pellicane (28:12)
And I really like that thought like, it’s more luxurious not to have your

stuff packed everywhere with stuff. It’s more luxurious to be like, I just have a few things I really like.

Kathi Lipp (28:23)
Well, and also I just did an episode with a doctor who specializes in sleep and the less that’s in your best bedroom, the less it pings you and yeah, you sleep better, you know, and with our acquisition, people who have listened to this podcast know that we talk about STEM, space, time, energy and money and the less stuff, the less space it takes up. So the less pinged you are time you’re like you were saying you’re not

Arlene Pellicane (28:31)
Interesting. My goodness.

Hmm. Yep. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (28:53)
dealing with that energy. You know, we’re always so exhausted, but we’re managing so much stuff. And then money because money is one of the biggest stress points in most marriages. And if we can hold on to more of that not spending it, you know, there there are certain places, you know, Costco is a trap for me. Target can be a trap for me. I have never met something at Trader Joe’s that I didn’t like, you know.

Arlene Pellicane (28:57)
Yep.

Right, me too.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (29:22)
These

are traps for me, but the money gives me options. And that’s what I want in my marriage. What if somebody is struggling over the state of their house with their spouse, whether their husband is on the messier side or maybe, you know, for the people who are listening, maybe it’s us, maybe we’re the ones who are struggling on the messier side. What are some talking points?

that you could have for that discussion as we close up here. What is something, how can you open up that conversation, whether it’s you or the other person?

Arlene Pellicane (30:01)
Yeah. You know, I would say start not with the idea like, am going to convince this person to be less messy. Right? Start instead of just being curious of like, how might we fix this? Like, how might this be easier? And approach your spouse that way. Like, hey, you know what? You know, I’m always nagging you to pick up your stuff and you’re always leaving your stuff around. I don’t want to nag you.

I don’t want to do that. So let’s brainstorm together. How can we make this easier for both of us? And just be kind of curious about like, maybe the messy person will say, you know, I really like the house messy because I grew up in a messy house and it just makes me feel at home. And when the house is so neat and picked up, I feel like it’s sterile, like I feel like it’s hospital. And you know what? As a spouse, if you heard that,

Kathi Lipp (30:29)
Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Arlene Pellicane (30:53)
it would give you a new perspective of, you actually feel really comfortable right now. This feels good to you. But now you’re kind of curious, you know, about what my husband would say you’re crossing the street. Like you’re crossing the street to find out what does the other person say about this. And then you could tell them, well, okay, that helps me to understand that that’s where, but for me, it has the opposite effect. I come home and I’m all freaked out. So maybe you do zones.

Kathi Lipp (30:58)
This feels good to you, yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:21)
that you’re like, hey, we’re gonna keep the kitchen area really clean and we’re gonna keep the bedroom really clean. And then the other part, the little family room, if you wanna junk that up, that can be like our thing. But you have to promise when we have people over, you have to help me clean it up. But like, I love this conversation of like, how can we make this easier for both of us so that we both could enjoy this just a little more. So don’t try to go for the total win.

Kathi Lipp (31:27)
Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:48)
Like we’re gonna completely clean the house, but just a little more, how could we make this a little better for both of us?

Kathi Lipp (31:54)
Yeah, because when there are winners and losers in a marriage, everybody loses. It’s just that it never works out. You never are going to win against your spouse because you’re never supposed to be set against your spouse. And so I love, I love, love, love this idea. Arlene, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Arlene Pellicane (31:59)
Yes. Yeah.

Yep.

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been so, so much fun. And I want to encourage you, instead of spending your money on stuff, spend it, save it for experiences. Because the experiences, you enjoy it three times. And I talk about how you can enjoy experiences three times in the book.

Kathi Lipp (32:26)
Yeah.

I think I know what you’re talking about. But yes. OK. The book is called Making Marriage Easier. How to love and like your spouse for life. We’ll have notes. We’ll have an ordering link in the show notes so you can go there and order it at Amazon or any of your favorite retailer, wherever books are sold. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Cathy Lip. Now.

Go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

Jun 24, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

Jun 17, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Finances, Freedom, Low Buy July, Podcast

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

Jun 10, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Kitchen, Organizing, Podcast, tips and ideas

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#653 Say Goodbye to Insomnia: How Decluttering Can Reboot Your Rest

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jan 21, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Podcast | 0 comments

#653 Say Goodbye to Insomnia: How Decluttering Can Reboot Your Rest

Listen Now

Hey there, friend!

In this eye opening episode of Clutter-Free Academy, join Kathi Lipp as she speaks with Dr. Vicki Kasper to explore the powerful and surprising link between clutter and sleep. They discuss the science behind rest, how a clutter-free environment contributes to restorative sleep, and actionable steps you can take today to declutter your way to peace and rest.

Dr. Vicki shares her expertise in lifestyle medicine with insights that could transform your bedtime routine and overall health. Listen along for the practical solutions offered in this episode, and be sure to follow up and get the free tip sheet designed to help you clear mental hurdles and sleep better. Everyone will benefit from the dynamic duo’s wisdom and be able to begin their journey to a clutter-free, restful life.

Join the conversation and get ready to implement life-changing habits that will help you live every day with less clutter and more life.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Dr Vickie Kasper

A twenty-year career as an obstetrician/gynecologist, delivereing precious babies at all hours of the day and night, doling out advice to women from all walks of life, treating illnesses, and giving doses of encouragement for living.
At the age of fifty, Dr Vickie was stronger and more fit than ever. Living her life in high gear, neglecting sleep and rest. Then, a rare neuromuscular disease called myasthenia gravis brought her life to a screeching halt.

Becoming a patient, Dr Vickie gained new insight, perspective, and tested her own advice. After surgery and intense medical treatment, she regained her health. Then came a borderline diabetes diagnosis, prompting lifestyle changes and igniting a passion for the power of lifestyle changes.

While Dr Vickie’s Christian faith was a solid foundation in her journey to health, she had a lot to learn about eating, sleeping, and managing stress. Now working in the field of lifestyle medicine, which emphasizes the importance of taking care of the whole body.

Now, as energized and healthy as ever before, Dr Vickie helps people adopt the six pillars of lifestyle medicine in their own lives. Whether you’re trying to prevent disease, treat a condition, or live with a chronic illness, lifestyle medicine can help you feel better.

You can find Dr Vickie on her Website here.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the Clutter-Free queen. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, we don’t often do top 10 lists, but we’re doing a top 10 list today. I, so this is a two-parter. The first part is 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)
Hey Kathi

Kathi Lipp (00:40)
And next week, we’re going to talk about 10 things I do now that I live clutter free. And so I want to talk to you about how your life has changed, the things that you have stopped. And I just realized I told you we were going to do exactly the opposite podcast, but you know what? We’re we’re just fine. We’re just rolling with it. You know, we’re going to live in the moment here. And so I’m going to get us kicked off because I I think

Tonya Kubo (00:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:10)
People would not recognize my life From before clutter free now clutter free has not always I did not say hey I’m gonna start something called clutter free and now I’m gonna change my life like I changed my life and Then I thought I’m not the only one like this I wrote a book called clutter free and then I met my friend Tonya Kubo who seemed like the most put-together human being on the planet, but told me no

Tonya Kubo (01:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:39)
her life was a mess too, and we started to figure all this stuff out together. And what a gift that was because as much as the book helped people, I know that our Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life and this podcast have helped just exponentially more people. I really, people don’t believe that I was cluttery at one point. And I’m like, no, I’m still cluttery at some points, but.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

still cluttering. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)
I’m not afraid

to invite you into my house. So I wanted to talk about what are some key things that look different now than they did when I was clutter free. number one, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. And this has been a huge shift for me because I would always think as I’ve…

Tonya Kubo (02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:32)
pretty much always been a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of person and who actually works nine to five. Let’s be clear, it’s eight to six. But I’ve pretty much been that person my whole life and I was just so busy during the week that I’m like, I’m just gonna save all this up for the weekends. And I don’t live like that anymore. Like as I am leaving a room, I’m like, are there things I can grab to throw away, to put away, to declutter?

Tonya Kubo (02:39)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:00)
Is that similar for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:03)
Yeah, I mean, I still think, you know, because my kids are younger, right? Like our house is always in some state of shambles, but you know, little things that I used to on Fridays clean off my desk, for instance. And now it’s just at the end of the day, right? It just is so much easier to take like a handful of stuff at the end of each day than to have to make multiple trips every Friday.

Kathi Lipp (03:06)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It makes such a difference, right? Because I don’t know, there’s just something about like, I’ve saved this up for an entire week. You know, instead of just saying, okay, a little bit of time, a little bit of time, my brain has shifted into small amounts of decluttering instead of huge mountains of decluttering. Okay, so that’s number one. Tonya, we’re going back and forth. Tonya, what’s number two?

Tonya Kubo (03:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (03:54)
something that you don’t do now that you live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (03:57)
Okay, so this might seem silly, but I genuinely used to think unloading the dishwasher took 30 minutes and now I realize it takes about three and a half. So I don’t put off unloading the dishwasher till the weekend. Like seriously, I made it into such a big job in my head and I don’t need more.

Kathi Lipp (04:11)
Right?

Yeah, yes,

I feel like doing the dishes could take a half hour if you’ve got a lot of dishes piled up if you have things that need to be soaked like, you know, deep, deep scrub. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:24)
Right, but I didn’t say doing the dishes, Kathi. I just

said unload the dishwasher.

Kathi Lipp (04:30)
just thinking maybe that’s why your brain was playing tricks on you and here’s what I know is when you when you unload the dishes here’s the magical thing it’s easier to load the dishes I know that seems like it should be obvious but our cluttery people will get that

Tonya Kubo (04:42)
Right.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Yeah, okay. Number three, I don’t stand next to the gas pump while it’s filling up. I, okay, so I think a lot of our cluttering friends will get this. I went, those small moments, like just like you were talking about with the microwave, I unload the dishwasher in the two and a half minutes that my, or I at least get it started in the two and a half minutes that my oatmeal is cooking.

Tonya Kubo (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:18)
And

so now I am married to somebody who does quiet contemplation while his coffee is warming up. And I’m like, you know what, we just live different lives. while I’m pumping my gas, I clean out the car. I just grab a few things. I throw them into the garbage. I feel like that’s free garbage. Garbage is such a big deal up here.

Tonya Kubo (05:24)
Hahaha

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

it is free garbage. I am right there with you.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)
It makes me so happy. I can’t even stand it. Yeah, I’m never somebody who would bring garbage from my house to throw away. I’ve heard of people doing that. I know. But if I’ve got a McDonald’s cup, that that’s going in the garbage while I’m pumping. It is I’m doing all the things and even like our truck takes a long time to fill up. I have been known to we have a like a hand vac in the truck.

Tonya Kubo (05:53)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)
and I’ve been known to like vacuum things out while I’m doing, yeah, it makes me so happy I can’t even stand it. Okay, but I’m doing, what the core concept behind that is it just takes a moment to make a small difference. And like you just said with the unloading dishwasher and even with the, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. If I can do a little bit each day, man, the weekends can be for.

Tonya Kubo (06:17)
Nice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:42)
fun or bigger projects or things like that. Okay, number four, Tonya, what’s something that you don’t do now that you’re living clutter free?

Tonya Kubo (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t go shopping when I’m tired, hungry, or frustrated.

Kathi Lipp (06:56)
That’s my favorite time to go shopping. Okay, tell me more. Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
It’s everybody’s favorite time to go shopping.

Right. But I mean, something that I learned early on in my clutter free journey is that when I’m tired, I’m hungry or I’m frustrated, my tolerance, like my my impulse control is lower and my desire to soothe is higher. And so I feel like everything I see at the store is going to make me feel better. And it is not.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)
Yeah.

Mmm, good.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:26)
to make me feel better. I am still going to leave the store tired, hungry, and frustrated so I may as well just solve those problems before I go.

Kathi Lipp (07:33)
Okay, can I tell you how I’m even worse at this and it’s something I need to correct in my own life. So I go to the store, which is a chore, right? That is an errand. Right. And I feel like because I have done that, even when I was living in San Jose and things were like five minutes, like, look at me checking things off of my list. I deserve a little treat, a little treaty treat. Can we just say that shopping and Target

Tonya Kubo (07:42)
Yeah, it’s a jaunt for you. It’s a jaunt.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (08:02)
It’s so much better when you have Starbucks. And so like this is the thinking I have to unpack all the time in my cluttery journey. it just, makes a difference. It makes a difference when you say, and I just, but I try not to go, I pack snacks now in our car so that we are not so tempted.

Tonya Kubo (08:05)
I’m sure it is, I’m sure it is.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)
Like it’s okay every once in a while to go to Starbucks, but you don’t get Starbucks every time you leave the house. Yes, okay. And so tired, hungry, frustrated will lead you to, and here’s the other part of that that I think is you’re so wise because I’ll just throw things in my cart and I’ll say I’ll return them later if I’m frustrated. Like, you know, don’t go shopping for jeans when you’re tired, frustrated or hungry. That’s just the meanest thing you could do to yourself.

Tonya Kubo (08:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

No.

Kathi Lipp (09:00)
but then I’ll buy all the jeans and then I’m like, now I have to take them back. And then like, I already have a return right now of a shirt and it’s, we’re recording this around Christmas time. And I’m like, the last thing I want to do on earth is go into a store and return a shirt. Like I can’t think of anything I want to do less. Okay. Number five, I don’t leave a room without scanning the room. So.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi Lipp (09:27)
What that means is I don’t, I don’t just walk into another room. I will walk into another room, but I will grab the dish that’s on my desk. I will grab the shirt that needs to be returned. Can you tell I’m going through stuff? I will grab the jacket that needs to be hung downstairs. And here’s why I think that this matters. Even if I’m just going into Roger’s office, which is still on the top of the floor.

I’ll move those things to the top of the stairs so that I used to think if I’m gonna do something, I need to do it all the way. And no, I just need to push it forward. I need to push that chore forward. And that makes a huge difference. It’s like, even if I can’t unload the entire dishwasher while my oatmeal is cooking, I’m pushing it forward enough and I’m yelling up to Roger,

Tonya Kubo (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
The dishes are clean, I’m just not done yet. And so he knows not to put dirty dishes in there. But if you can push it forward, then the next time you’re reheating your coffee, you can push it forward another minute and you might get it done. And so scanning a room, seeing what can I push into place? Because here’s what I know, if I leave it all until I have time, then I’m gonna spend half a day going up and down the stairs. And that sounds like my worst nightmare, I hate that stuff.

Tonya Kubo (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (10:56)
Yeah, okay. So we have gone through our top five. We’re gonna take a quick break, pay some bills. We’re gonna come back and Tonya is gonna talk about how she doesn’t apologize. I can’t wait to hear about how you do this. Teach me, Obi-Wan. We’ll be right back. Okay, guys, we are back with 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter free. So Tonya, you say you don’t apologize. For what?

Tonya Kubo (11:23)
I

apologize for the condition of my house.

Kathi Lipp (11:26)
So tell me more. Tell me how I can get brave and be really like, just come on in.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)
well, just stop doing it. I mean, that’s how I did it, right? It was like a cold turkey. Like, I think there was a bit of a transition of where I would say, I probably should apologize for the state of my house, but I won’t. But I just don’t. And, you know, some people come in and say stuff and some people don’t, and I don’t really care. Because what I realize is we all have a different standard. You know, I used to apologize. And I realized that a lot of people

Kathi Lipp (11:37)
wow.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:03)
Like, first of all, I would apologize after spending hours doing a crisis clean because I knew other people would come in and like, and feel like my house was in complete disarray. And I was like, why am I acting like I didn’t just kill myself to make this house look nicer? And then I got to where, you know what? What do I care? mean, people come in, sometimes people are like, wow, you must be really busy. I am. That’s not untrue. I am really busy.

Kathi Lipp (12:13)
Mmm.

Right, right.

It’s a great friend test, right? Can we hang? Can we hang? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I’m just

like, there’s nothing they could say that’s probably not true to some degree. And I’ve had like repair guys come in, it’s funny, is because the repair guys will come in and our front room doesn’t have flooring. We tore up the flooring and then building costs went up so we have not replaced the flooring. And they’ll go to put the booties on them like, yeah, that’s cute. You don’t have to do that here. And they’ll look around and they’re like, okay.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)
All right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:01)
Every now and then they’ll say, are you sure? Like, yeah, no, we’re good here.

Kathi Lipp (13:06)
Yeah.

Well, it’s so true. Our lives are all in transition, right? And when you have kids, the amount of day-to-day clutter goes up exponentially. Or maybe you’re in the midst of a big project. You know, I’ll never forget during the launch of Clutter Free, book, the state my house was in. It was like, we can’t take any pictures. And just recently,

Tonya Kubo (13:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:35)
Tenneil who manages our social media said, Kathi, can we get a video of you pushing in a chair? And right now we’re in Christmas crazies. I’m like, it would take me 45 minutes to get to a place to push in a chair. Right, it’s, yeah, because there’s all the fudge making supplies right there, yeah. So are you really, are you using marshmallow fluff in it?

Tonya Kubo (13:45)
No. To push in the chair. You’re like, “‘Cause I can’t get to the chair to push it in.”

Yes, I’m making fudge this weekend too. Anyway, I am.

I am using marshmallow fluff in it. I took a whole class on how to make fudge using marshmallow fluff. It was fun.

Kathi Lipp (14:05)
I saw that I saw that well,

I saw the fudge class. I didn’t know that there was the marshmallow fluff. Yeah, I’m very excited I’m just using a recipe off the internet But as you know, we live next to not next to you know half I don’t know 20 minutes away from a gourmet chocolate shop, which is the only Yeah, they’re a whiner They ship they’re so good but also let’s just say their fudge has gourmet prices and I’m like

Tonya Kubo (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Little John’s, they ship. Little John’s, you should order from Little John’s.

Yes

Kathi Lipp (14:35)
How much would it cost for me to do this? And Roger’s like, we can buy their other stuff. We never have to buy fudge again. And I was like, I’m an indentured fudge servant now. Got it. Okay. Okay. You know what? It’s good. Hey, speaking of fudge, number seven, I don’t buy all the gear for hobbies unless I have a pattern of doing the hobby. Because here’s what I’ve discovered, Tonya. You know what my hobby is? Buying the stuff for hobbies.

Tonya Kubo (14:44)
Yes, I am too.

Mmm.

I

was gonna say preparing to have a hobby.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)
So here’s what I said, know, like one of the recipes that I am preparing right now called for a candy thermometer. And I’m like, ugh.

Tonya Kubo (15:17)
I need that for the fudge recipe with the marshmallow fluff. You need a candy thermometer.

Kathi Lipp (15:20)
Okay, so here’s what I told

myself if I prepare three recipes right now that don’t require the the thermometer if I if I prepare these three Christmas gift II things then I am allowed to buy a Candy thermometer and I got one by the way Michaels has 30 % off coupons for a while now. So go check that out I got the I think it’s the Wilson one but

Tonya Kubo (15:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ew.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)
I cannot tell you how many hobbies I’ve invested in and had to keep that stuff because I invest I told myself I’ve invested so heavily I need to keep all this stuff. It just it doesn’t make sense and it’s not the right thing. So I no longer I need to have a pattern of Can I start this hobby with stuff I have or can I start this hobby for less than ten dollars? And if I find that I really enjoy it

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Then I will keep going but I am NOT going to go I’ll just say my history is buying at a professional level and performing at an amateur level like it’s not good

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
I

know that feeling though. If I have the same paints and brushes that Bob Ross has, I will make the same pictures that Bob Ross made.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)
Right.

Right, right.

And you know, our friend Cheri Gregory, friend of the podcast, Cheri Gregory calls it buying to become and I have done that for years and years. Okay, Tonya, number eight.

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Yeah.

Okay, I kind of stole from you because you said that you scan a room before you leave. Before I go to bed, I make a round through the house specifically for dirty dishes. And here’s my, if I made a round through my house for decluttering, I would never make it to bed. But I can make a pass through my teeny tiny house just for dirty dishes in about 25 minutes. And it makes my life so much easier that

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

so smart.

No, of course not.

Hmm

Tonya Kubo (17:24)
Like, know, because all run into bulls, where are all the bulls? The bulls are in the kids’ room underneath the bed. Why are they underneath the bed? I actually can’t answer that question, but that is where I find them.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Okay, Tonya, we are missing a bowl right now. There are just two of us. There are just two of us. This giant glass bowl, we cannot find. Is it under Lily’s bed? That’s my question now.

Tonya Kubo (17:36)
Maybe it’s under my bed!

It’s probably under Lily’s bed, and this is the worst of it, right? Is the way that Abby’s bed works, it sits lower to the ground. So Abby shoves stuff underneath Lily’s bed too. It’s not even all Lily’s fault.

Kathi Lipp (17:52)
Ugh.

Poor Lily. I’m sorry Lily. I did not mean to throw you under the bus bus or the bed Okay, so you do so what 25 minutes that seems like a long time so break that down for me Really okay

Tonya Kubo (18:13)
It’s a lot of dishes in my kid’s room and a lot of

dishes by Mr. Kubo’s desk. So it’s two trips. Two to three trips from the girl’s room, two trips from Brian’s desk and then

Kathi Lipp (18:20)
Got it. So you’re having to make multiple trips. Got it. Okay. And then

And and you’re

loading you’re soaking all that. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay Okay, that makes total sense. And I think doing doing a round of dishes I really feel like when everything else in your life falls apart the two things that you need to stay on top of are dishes and laundry because Mm-hmm. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (18:49)
Yes and I will say just really quickly that 25 minutes

does include a good five minute temper tantrum of my gosh what is growing in this thing.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)
I love it. Yeah, the the the Dishes and laundry if you stay on top of those like I don’t care how crunchy your kitchen floor gets I don’t care, you know at the I would say the third thing but this doesn’t have to be done as Much is staying on top of bills. Those are the important things that if you fall behind on them It’s going to be super painful to recover from them

Tonya Kubo (19:01)
That’s in there too.

No.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:25)
But if you can stay on top of those three things, it takes almost the same amount of energy to mop the floor when it’s been a week or five weeks. Like, I don’t want you to have to go five weeks, but if you need to in a crisis, you can. And yeah, and also stay on top of your garbage and recycling. number nine. This is my last thing of things I don’t do now that I live clutter free.

Tonya Kubo (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:55)
Okay, I try not to I’m still working through this but I’m much better than I used to be I don’t compare my stuff to my friends stuff so Or stuff on social media. There is always a new thing That would make my life two percent easier or two percent better Not not my entire life if something made my entire life two percent better you bet I’m going to invest in that but like

Tonya Kubo (20:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:25)
Let’s say, know, my, my robot vacuum, there are now robot vacuums that you can control remotely. Like I could be at my mom’s house and now I could get that doesn’t make my life better enough to upgrade my robot. Like my robots fine. We get along. We, she does what she needs to do. I’m sorry. It’s normally a he. I don’t know why I said she, cause I like for all my domestic labor to be he’s.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)
Because I just think that’s fair But I Just because somebody else has something that has made their life Infamates Lee better. It doesn’t mean that I need to upgrade it. I I try when I see you wearing a cute sweater I’m not going to say you know what? need that cute sweater. I’m gonna I’m one of things I’m trying to do is go into my own closet

Tonya Kubo (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:22)
and see

my own cute sweaters and the things that make me happy. So I’m trying really hard to reframe what my friends have. And also that can be a form of jealousy. I can just say, you know what? I’m really happy that Tonya has that sweater. I think she looks great in it. She’s having fun with it. And it makes me happy to see her in it. And it doesn’t have to be, I don’t have to own it for it to bring me happiness. So trying to stay out of that comparison trap.

Tonya Kubo (21:33)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)
And I’m sure when you go into people’s houses that have floors, that can be hard.

Tonya Kubo (21:57)
I do have floor envy right now, I’m not gonna lie. If you’ve got luxury vinyl plank, I’m eyeballing your floors, let me tell ya.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)
I you do.

And I do have that upstairs and I wrestled over that decision for about two years And I’m so glad we pulled the trigger It’s so painful to get flooring done just because of all the moving and shifting and all that kind of stuff Okay, Tonya round out our list. Give us number ten. All right

Tonya Kubo (22:09)
Yeah, no.

It is.

My cluttery peeps will get this. I no longer gain comfort or security from having full shelves, full drawers, etc.

Kathi Lipp (22:33)
yeah, space scares us, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)
Space is scary because space is scarcity and lack and my gosh what

if I don’t have enough. But if things are full even if they’re full of stuff that you haven’t worn in 22 years you believe you have enough clothes if for some reason they stopped making all clothing.

Kathi Lipp (22:48)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Tonya, this is so interesting. A number of people on TikTok and other apps are doing a no buy 2025, right? And the conventional wisdom is declutter your closet so you can see what you have. And then, so you know what you have, because it is, it’s easier to see what you have when you have less stuff in your closet.

Tonya Kubo (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
But I heard one woman, I thought this was so interesting. And I’m just gonna throw this out there for your reaction. She goes, I am not decluttering before my 2025. Because when I declutter, I feel like there is empty space. And I feel this urge to fill that space with shopping, with thrifting, with all these other things. So what she is doing is she is.

Tonya Kubo (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:50)
putting some of her clothes into another closet, including clothes she likes, so that she will, she remember, I’ve got more stuff. I don’t know, how does that hit you? I thought it was really interesting. Really.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I have a friend who does that actually. she has,

yeah, so she boxes up all of her extra stuff, even if it’s in the current season. And she has it all in like the rafters of her garage. But whenever she’s like, I wanna go shopping, she just goes and she takes a box down and she trades out pieces.

Kathi Lipp (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I think it’s really interesting. And so I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I’m going to try the other closet boxing because yeah, when I pull out all my winter stuff, I’m so happy. I’m like, I never need to go shopping again. And then after about two weeks, I’m like, you know, people are really into these green grandpa sweaters and like, okay, Kathi, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Tonya Kubo (24:50)
Yeah,

see, and I’m the person, I want all of my clothing to be able to fit in this much of my closet. Like, I don’t wanna ever change anything out. I don’t wanna work that hard. I’m just so, like, I don’t wanna say lazy, but really it’s just like, that is just something that takes such a high level of perceived energy for me that I’m like, I’m good.

Kathi Lipp (24:56)
Yes, you.

Yeah.

Okay, see, even within our Cluttery community, we all have our own little quirks. And that’s why it’s okay for you to forge your own path, but think about the wisdom that will get you to the next space in your Clutter-free journey. I hope one of these has inspired you today. Tonya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (25:18)
We do.

Thanks for having me.

Kathi Lipp (25:37)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#652 The Clutter Free Lifestyle: 10 Habits That Actually Work

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jan 14, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Podcast | 0 comments

#652 The Clutter Free Lifestyle: 10 Habits That Actually Work

Listen Now

Hey there, friend!

In this encouraging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo reveal the top 10 habits they’ve developed since embracing a clutter-free lifestyle. This candid conversation offers listeners practical insights into how living clutter-free transforms daily routines and decision-making.

Listen in as Kathi and Tonya share how to make shopping lists that actually prevent clutter, why online grocery shopping can be a game-changer for staying organized, the mental health benefits of simple habits like making your bed, smart strategies for family dinner organization, how to approach sales and bulk purchases without accumulating clutter, a systematic approach to home organization that reduces decision fatigue and more!

Join the conversation and get ready to implement life-changing habits that will help you live every day with less clutter and more life.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the Clutter-Free queen. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, we don’t often do top 10 lists, but we’re doing a top 10 list today. I, so this is a two-parter. The first part is 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)
Hey Kathi

Kathi Lipp (00:40)
And next week, we’re going to talk about 10 things I do now that I live clutter free. And so I want to talk to you about how your life has changed, the things that you have stopped. And I just realized I told you we were going to do exactly the opposite podcast, but you know what? We’re we’re just fine. We’re just rolling with it. You know, we’re going to live in the moment here. And so I’m going to get us kicked off because I I think

Tonya Kubo (00:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:10)
People would not recognize my life From before clutter free now clutter free has not always I did not say hey I’m gonna start something called clutter free and now I’m gonna change my life like I changed my life and Then I thought I’m not the only one like this I wrote a book called clutter free and then I met my friend Tonya Kubo who seemed like the most put-together human being on the planet, but told me no

Tonya Kubo (01:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:39)
her life was a mess too, and we started to figure all this stuff out together. And what a gift that was because as much as the book helped people, I know that our Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life and this podcast have helped just exponentially more people. I really, people don’t believe that I was cluttery at one point. And I’m like, no, I’m still cluttery at some points, but.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

still cluttering. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)
I’m not afraid

to invite you into my house. So I wanted to talk about what are some key things that look different now than they did when I was clutter free. number one, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. And this has been a huge shift for me because I would always think as I’ve…

Tonya Kubo (02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:32)
pretty much always been a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of person and who actually works nine to five. Let’s be clear, it’s eight to six. But I’ve pretty much been that person my whole life and I was just so busy during the week that I’m like, I’m just gonna save all this up for the weekends. And I don’t live like that anymore. Like as I am leaving a room, I’m like, are there things I can grab to throw away, to put away, to declutter?

Tonya Kubo (02:39)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:00)
Is that similar for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:03)
Yeah, I mean, I still think, you know, because my kids are younger, right? Like our house is always in some state of shambles, but you know, little things that I used to on Fridays clean off my desk, for instance. And now it’s just at the end of the day, right? It just is so much easier to take like a handful of stuff at the end of each day than to have to make multiple trips every Friday.

Kathi Lipp (03:06)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It makes such a difference, right? Because I don’t know, there’s just something about like, I’ve saved this up for an entire week. You know, instead of just saying, okay, a little bit of time, a little bit of time, my brain has shifted into small amounts of decluttering instead of huge mountains of decluttering. Okay, so that’s number one. Tonya, we’re going back and forth. Tonya, what’s number two?

Tonya Kubo (03:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (03:54)
something that you don’t do now that you live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (03:57)
Okay, so this might seem silly, but I genuinely used to think unloading the dishwasher took 30 minutes and now I realize it takes about three and a half. So I don’t put off unloading the dishwasher till the weekend. Like seriously, I made it into such a big job in my head and I don’t need more.

Kathi Lipp (04:11)
Right?

Yeah, yes,

I feel like doing the dishes could take a half hour if you’ve got a lot of dishes piled up if you have things that need to be soaked like, you know, deep, deep scrub. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:24)
Right, but I didn’t say doing the dishes, Kathi. I just

said unload the dishwasher.

Kathi Lipp (04:30)
just thinking maybe that’s why your brain was playing tricks on you and here’s what I know is when you when you unload the dishes here’s the magical thing it’s easier to load the dishes I know that seems like it should be obvious but our cluttery people will get that

Tonya Kubo (04:42)
Right.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Yeah, okay. Number three, I don’t stand next to the gas pump while it’s filling up. I, okay, so I think a lot of our cluttering friends will get this. I went, those small moments, like just like you were talking about with the microwave, I unload the dishwasher in the two and a half minutes that my, or I at least get it started in the two and a half minutes that my oatmeal is cooking.

Tonya Kubo (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:18)
And

so now I am married to somebody who does quiet contemplation while his coffee is warming up. And I’m like, you know what, we just live different lives. while I’m pumping my gas, I clean out the car. I just grab a few things. I throw them into the garbage. I feel like that’s free garbage. Garbage is such a big deal up here.

Tonya Kubo (05:24)
Hahaha

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

it is free garbage. I am right there with you.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)
It makes me so happy. I can’t even stand it. Yeah, I’m never somebody who would bring garbage from my house to throw away. I’ve heard of people doing that. I know. But if I’ve got a McDonald’s cup, that that’s going in the garbage while I’m pumping. It is I’m doing all the things and even like our truck takes a long time to fill up. I have been known to we have a like a hand vac in the truck.

Tonya Kubo (05:53)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)
and I’ve been known to like vacuum things out while I’m doing, yeah, it makes me so happy I can’t even stand it. Okay, but I’m doing, what the core concept behind that is it just takes a moment to make a small difference. And like you just said with the unloading dishwasher and even with the, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. If I can do a little bit each day, man, the weekends can be for.

Tonya Kubo (06:17)
Nice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:42)
fun or bigger projects or things like that. Okay, number four, Tonya, what’s something that you don’t do now that you’re living clutter free?

Tonya Kubo (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t go shopping when I’m tired, hungry, or frustrated.

Kathi Lipp (06:56)
That’s my favorite time to go shopping. Okay, tell me more. Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
It’s everybody’s favorite time to go shopping.

Right. But I mean, something that I learned early on in my clutter free journey is that when I’m tired, I’m hungry or I’m frustrated, my tolerance, like my my impulse control is lower and my desire to soothe is higher. And so I feel like everything I see at the store is going to make me feel better. And it is not.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)
Yeah.

Mmm, good.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:26)
to make me feel better. I am still going to leave the store tired, hungry, and frustrated so I may as well just solve those problems before I go.

Kathi Lipp (07:33)
Okay, can I tell you how I’m even worse at this and it’s something I need to correct in my own life. So I go to the store, which is a chore, right? That is an errand. Right. And I feel like because I have done that, even when I was living in San Jose and things were like five minutes, like, look at me checking things off of my list. I deserve a little treat, a little treaty treat. Can we just say that shopping and Target

Tonya Kubo (07:42)
Yeah, it’s a jaunt for you. It’s a jaunt.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (08:02)
It’s so much better when you have Starbucks. And so like this is the thinking I have to unpack all the time in my cluttery journey. it just, makes a difference. It makes a difference when you say, and I just, but I try not to go, I pack snacks now in our car so that we are not so tempted.

Tonya Kubo (08:05)
I’m sure it is, I’m sure it is.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)
Like it’s okay every once in a while to go to Starbucks, but you don’t get Starbucks every time you leave the house. Yes, okay. And so tired, hungry, frustrated will lead you to, and here’s the other part of that that I think is you’re so wise because I’ll just throw things in my cart and I’ll say I’ll return them later if I’m frustrated. Like, you know, don’t go shopping for jeans when you’re tired, frustrated or hungry. That’s just the meanest thing you could do to yourself.

Tonya Kubo (08:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

No.

Kathi Lipp (09:00)
but then I’ll buy all the jeans and then I’m like, now I have to take them back. And then like, I already have a return right now of a shirt and it’s, we’re recording this around Christmas time. And I’m like, the last thing I want to do on earth is go into a store and return a shirt. Like I can’t think of anything I want to do less. Okay. Number five, I don’t leave a room without scanning the room. So.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi Lipp (09:27)
What that means is I don’t, I don’t just walk into another room. I will walk into another room, but I will grab the dish that’s on my desk. I will grab the shirt that needs to be returned. Can you tell I’m going through stuff? I will grab the jacket that needs to be hung downstairs. And here’s why I think that this matters. Even if I’m just going into Roger’s office, which is still on the top of the floor.

I’ll move those things to the top of the stairs so that I used to think if I’m gonna do something, I need to do it all the way. And no, I just need to push it forward. I need to push that chore forward. And that makes a huge difference. It’s like, even if I can’t unload the entire dishwasher while my oatmeal is cooking, I’m pushing it forward enough and I’m yelling up to Roger,

Tonya Kubo (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
The dishes are clean, I’m just not done yet. And so he knows not to put dirty dishes in there. But if you can push it forward, then the next time you’re reheating your coffee, you can push it forward another minute and you might get it done. And so scanning a room, seeing what can I push into place? Because here’s what I know, if I leave it all until I have time, then I’m gonna spend half a day going up and down the stairs. And that sounds like my worst nightmare, I hate that stuff.

Tonya Kubo (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (10:56)
Yeah, okay. So we have gone through our top five. We’re gonna take a quick break, pay some bills. We’re gonna come back and Tonya is gonna talk about how she doesn’t apologize. I can’t wait to hear about how you do this. Teach me, Obi-Wan. We’ll be right back. Okay, guys, we are back with 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter free. So Tonya, you say you don’t apologize. For what?

Tonya Kubo (11:23)
I

apologize for the condition of my house.

Kathi Lipp (11:26)
So tell me more. Tell me how I can get brave and be really like, just come on in.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)
well, just stop doing it. I mean, that’s how I did it, right? It was like a cold turkey. Like, I think there was a bit of a transition of where I would say, I probably should apologize for the state of my house, but I won’t. But I just don’t. And, you know, some people come in and say stuff and some people don’t, and I don’t really care. Because what I realize is we all have a different standard. You know, I used to apologize. And I realized that a lot of people

Kathi Lipp (11:37)
wow.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:03)
Like, first of all, I would apologize after spending hours doing a crisis clean because I knew other people would come in and like, and feel like my house was in complete disarray. And I was like, why am I acting like I didn’t just kill myself to make this house look nicer? And then I got to where, you know what? What do I care? mean, people come in, sometimes people are like, wow, you must be really busy. I am. That’s not untrue. I am really busy.

Kathi Lipp (12:13)
Mmm.

Right, right.

It’s a great friend test, right? Can we hang? Can we hang? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I’m just

like, there’s nothing they could say that’s probably not true to some degree. And I’ve had like repair guys come in, it’s funny, is because the repair guys will come in and our front room doesn’t have flooring. We tore up the flooring and then building costs went up so we have not replaced the flooring. And they’ll go to put the booties on them like, yeah, that’s cute. You don’t have to do that here. And they’ll look around and they’re like, okay.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)
All right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:01)
Every now and then they’ll say, are you sure? Like, yeah, no, we’re good here.

Kathi Lipp (13:06)
Yeah.

Well, it’s so true. Our lives are all in transition, right? And when you have kids, the amount of day-to-day clutter goes up exponentially. Or maybe you’re in the midst of a big project. You know, I’ll never forget during the launch of Clutter Free, book, the state my house was in. It was like, we can’t take any pictures. And just recently,

Tonya Kubo (13:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:35)
Tenneil who manages our social media said, Kathi, can we get a video of you pushing in a chair? And right now we’re in Christmas crazies. I’m like, it would take me 45 minutes to get to a place to push in a chair. Right, it’s, yeah, because there’s all the fudge making supplies right there, yeah. So are you really, are you using marshmallow fluff in it?

Tonya Kubo (13:45)
No. To push in the chair. You’re like, “‘Cause I can’t get to the chair to push it in.”

Yes, I’m making fudge this weekend too. Anyway, I am.

I am using marshmallow fluff in it. I took a whole class on how to make fudge using marshmallow fluff. It was fun.

Kathi Lipp (14:05)
I saw that I saw that well,

I saw the fudge class. I didn’t know that there was the marshmallow fluff. Yeah, I’m very excited I’m just using a recipe off the internet But as you know, we live next to not next to you know half I don’t know 20 minutes away from a gourmet chocolate shop, which is the only Yeah, they’re a whiner They ship they’re so good but also let’s just say their fudge has gourmet prices and I’m like

Tonya Kubo (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Little John’s, they ship. Little John’s, you should order from Little John’s.

Yes

Kathi Lipp (14:35)
How much would it cost for me to do this? And Roger’s like, we can buy their other stuff. We never have to buy fudge again. And I was like, I’m an indentured fudge servant now. Got it. Okay. Okay. You know what? It’s good. Hey, speaking of fudge, number seven, I don’t buy all the gear for hobbies unless I have a pattern of doing the hobby. Because here’s what I’ve discovered, Tonya. You know what my hobby is? Buying the stuff for hobbies.

Tonya Kubo (14:44)
Yes, I am too.

Mmm.

I

was gonna say preparing to have a hobby.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)
So here’s what I said, know, like one of the recipes that I am preparing right now called for a candy thermometer. And I’m like, ugh.

Tonya Kubo (15:17)
I need that for the fudge recipe with the marshmallow fluff. You need a candy thermometer.

Kathi Lipp (15:20)
Okay, so here’s what I told

myself if I prepare three recipes right now that don’t require the the thermometer if I if I prepare these three Christmas gift II things then I am allowed to buy a Candy thermometer and I got one by the way Michaels has 30 % off coupons for a while now. So go check that out I got the I think it’s the Wilson one but

Tonya Kubo (15:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ew.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)
I cannot tell you how many hobbies I’ve invested in and had to keep that stuff because I invest I told myself I’ve invested so heavily I need to keep all this stuff. It just it doesn’t make sense and it’s not the right thing. So I no longer I need to have a pattern of Can I start this hobby with stuff I have or can I start this hobby for less than ten dollars? And if I find that I really enjoy it

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Then I will keep going but I am NOT going to go I’ll just say my history is buying at a professional level and performing at an amateur level like it’s not good

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
I

know that feeling though. If I have the same paints and brushes that Bob Ross has, I will make the same pictures that Bob Ross made.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)
Right.

Right, right.

And you know, our friend Cheri Gregory, friend of the podcast, Cheri Gregory calls it buying to become and I have done that for years and years. Okay, Tonya, number eight.

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Yeah.

Okay, I kind of stole from you because you said that you scan a room before you leave. Before I go to bed, I make a round through the house specifically for dirty dishes. And here’s my, if I made a round through my house for decluttering, I would never make it to bed. But I can make a pass through my teeny tiny house just for dirty dishes in about 25 minutes. And it makes my life so much easier that

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

so smart.

No, of course not.

Hmm

Tonya Kubo (17:24)
Like, know, because all run into bulls, where are all the bulls? The bulls are in the kids’ room underneath the bed. Why are they underneath the bed? I actually can’t answer that question, but that is where I find them.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Okay, Tonya, we are missing a bowl right now. There are just two of us. There are just two of us. This giant glass bowl, we cannot find. Is it under Lily’s bed? That’s my question now.

Tonya Kubo (17:36)
Maybe it’s under my bed!

It’s probably under Lily’s bed, and this is the worst of it, right? Is the way that Abby’s bed works, it sits lower to the ground. So Abby shoves stuff underneath Lily’s bed too. It’s not even all Lily’s fault.

Kathi Lipp (17:52)
Ugh.

Poor Lily. I’m sorry Lily. I did not mean to throw you under the bus bus or the bed Okay, so you do so what 25 minutes that seems like a long time so break that down for me Really okay

Tonya Kubo (18:13)
It’s a lot of dishes in my kid’s room and a lot of

dishes by Mr. Kubo’s desk. So it’s two trips. Two to three trips from the girl’s room, two trips from Brian’s desk and then

Kathi Lipp (18:20)
Got it. So you’re having to make multiple trips. Got it. Okay. And then

And and you’re

loading you’re soaking all that. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay Okay, that makes total sense. And I think doing doing a round of dishes I really feel like when everything else in your life falls apart the two things that you need to stay on top of are dishes and laundry because Mm-hmm. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (18:49)
Yes and I will say just really quickly that 25 minutes

does include a good five minute temper tantrum of my gosh what is growing in this thing.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)
I love it. Yeah, the the the Dishes and laundry if you stay on top of those like I don’t care how crunchy your kitchen floor gets I don’t care, you know at the I would say the third thing but this doesn’t have to be done as Much is staying on top of bills. Those are the important things that if you fall behind on them It’s going to be super painful to recover from them

Tonya Kubo (19:01)
That’s in there too.

No.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:25)
But if you can stay on top of those three things, it takes almost the same amount of energy to mop the floor when it’s been a week or five weeks. Like, I don’t want you to have to go five weeks, but if you need to in a crisis, you can. And yeah, and also stay on top of your garbage and recycling. number nine. This is my last thing of things I don’t do now that I live clutter free.

Tonya Kubo (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:55)
Okay, I try not to I’m still working through this but I’m much better than I used to be I don’t compare my stuff to my friends stuff so Or stuff on social media. There is always a new thing That would make my life two percent easier or two percent better Not not my entire life if something made my entire life two percent better you bet I’m going to invest in that but like

Tonya Kubo (20:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:25)
Let’s say, know, my, my robot vacuum, there are now robot vacuums that you can control remotely. Like I could be at my mom’s house and now I could get that doesn’t make my life better enough to upgrade my robot. Like my robots fine. We get along. We, she does what she needs to do. I’m sorry. It’s normally a he. I don’t know why I said she, cause I like for all my domestic labor to be he’s.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)
Because I just think that’s fair But I Just because somebody else has something that has made their life Infamates Lee better. It doesn’t mean that I need to upgrade it. I I try when I see you wearing a cute sweater I’m not going to say you know what? need that cute sweater. I’m gonna I’m one of things I’m trying to do is go into my own closet

Tonya Kubo (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:22)
and see

my own cute sweaters and the things that make me happy. So I’m trying really hard to reframe what my friends have. And also that can be a form of jealousy. I can just say, you know what? I’m really happy that Tonya has that sweater. I think she looks great in it. She’s having fun with it. And it makes me happy to see her in it. And it doesn’t have to be, I don’t have to own it for it to bring me happiness. So trying to stay out of that comparison trap.

Tonya Kubo (21:33)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)
And I’m sure when you go into people’s houses that have floors, that can be hard.

Tonya Kubo (21:57)
I do have floor envy right now, I’m not gonna lie. If you’ve got luxury vinyl plank, I’m eyeballing your floors, let me tell ya.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)
I you do.

And I do have that upstairs and I wrestled over that decision for about two years And I’m so glad we pulled the trigger It’s so painful to get flooring done just because of all the moving and shifting and all that kind of stuff Okay, Tonya round out our list. Give us number ten. All right

Tonya Kubo (22:09)
Yeah, no.

It is.

My cluttery peeps will get this. I no longer gain comfort or security from having full shelves, full drawers, etc.

Kathi Lipp (22:33)
yeah, space scares us, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)
Space is scary because space is scarcity and lack and my gosh what

if I don’t have enough. But if things are full even if they’re full of stuff that you haven’t worn in 22 years you believe you have enough clothes if for some reason they stopped making all clothing.

Kathi Lipp (22:48)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Tonya, this is so interesting. A number of people on TikTok and other apps are doing a no buy 2025, right? And the conventional wisdom is declutter your closet so you can see what you have. And then, so you know what you have, because it is, it’s easier to see what you have when you have less stuff in your closet.

Tonya Kubo (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
But I heard one woman, I thought this was so interesting. And I’m just gonna throw this out there for your reaction. She goes, I am not decluttering before my 2025. Because when I declutter, I feel like there is empty space. And I feel this urge to fill that space with shopping, with thrifting, with all these other things. So what she is doing is she is.

Tonya Kubo (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:50)
putting some of her clothes into another closet, including clothes she likes, so that she will, she remember, I’ve got more stuff. I don’t know, how does that hit you? I thought it was really interesting. Really.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I have a friend who does that actually. she has,

yeah, so she boxes up all of her extra stuff, even if it’s in the current season. And she has it all in like the rafters of her garage. But whenever she’s like, I wanna go shopping, she just goes and she takes a box down and she trades out pieces.

Kathi Lipp (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I think it’s really interesting. And so I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I’m going to try the other closet boxing because yeah, when I pull out all my winter stuff, I’m so happy. I’m like, I never need to go shopping again. And then after about two weeks, I’m like, you know, people are really into these green grandpa sweaters and like, okay, Kathi, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Tonya Kubo (24:50)
Yeah,

see, and I’m the person, I want all of my clothing to be able to fit in this much of my closet. Like, I don’t wanna ever change anything out. I don’t wanna work that hard. I’m just so, like, I don’t wanna say lazy, but really it’s just like, that is just something that takes such a high level of perceived energy for me that I’m like, I’m good.

Kathi Lipp (24:56)
Yes, you.

Yeah.

Okay, see, even within our Cluttery community, we all have our own little quirks. And that’s why it’s okay for you to forge your own path, but think about the wisdom that will get you to the next space in your Clutter-free journey. I hope one of these has inspired you today. Tonya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (25:18)
We do.

Thanks for having me.

Kathi Lipp (25:37)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you always wanted to live.

#675 – Why Summer is the Perfect Time to Declutter

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and her clutter comrade, Tonya Kubo, dive into why summer is the ideal time to declutter. As the days get longer, tackle those overwhelming clutter issues that seem impossible during the rest of the year....

#674 – Low Buy July: 31 Days to Your Financial Reset

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo talk about why they're moving from “No Buy July” to a gentler, grace-filled “Low Buy July.” If you’ve ever felt like buying toilet paper broke the rules or you’re just exhausted by all-or-nothing...

#673 – The Dishwasher Dilemma: Secrets to a Clutter-Free Kitchen

In this engaging episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive into the dynamic world of dishwashing, sharing secrets to establish a daily rhythm that keeps kitchen chaos at bay. Listen in as Kathi reveals her tried-and-true methods for...

#651 10 Surprising Things I No Longer Do as a Clutter-Free Mom

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jan 7, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Home, Mental Load, Podcast | 0 comments

#651 10 Surprising Things I No Longer Do as a Clutter-Free Mom

Listen Now

Hey there, friend!

In this compelling episode of Clutter-Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo explore the significant and often surprising habits they’ve relinquished to maintain a clutter-free lifestyle. Listeners will discover insights and practical advice tailored for anyone feeling overwhelmed by household clutter. Whether you’re tired of decluttering only to find the mess back a week later or looking to simplify your daily routine, this episode is for you.

Listen in as Kathi and Tonya share their journey of transformation, including ditching weekend decluttering marathons and learning to tackle small tasks daily. They emphasize the importance of mindfulness in everyday actions, providing the tools you need to reclaim your living space.

Join the conversation and get ready to implement life-changing habits that will help you live every day with less clutter and more life.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the Clutter-Free queen. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. Okay, we don’t often do top 10 lists, but we’re doing a top 10 list today. I, so this is a two-parter. The first part is 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (00:24)
Hey Kathi

Kathi Lipp (00:40)
And next week, we’re going to talk about 10 things I do now that I live clutter free. And so I want to talk to you about how your life has changed, the things that you have stopped. And I just realized I told you we were going to do exactly the opposite podcast, but you know what? We’re we’re just fine. We’re just rolling with it. You know, we’re going to live in the moment here. And so I’m going to get us kicked off because I I think

Tonya Kubo (00:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:10)
People would not recognize my life From before clutter free now clutter free has not always I did not say hey I’m gonna start something called clutter free and now I’m gonna change my life like I changed my life and Then I thought I’m not the only one like this I wrote a book called clutter free and then I met my friend Tonya Kubo who seemed like the most put-together human being on the planet, but told me no

Tonya Kubo (01:21)
No.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:39)
her life was a mess too, and we started to figure all this stuff out together. And what a gift that was because as much as the book helped people, I know that our Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life and this podcast have helped just exponentially more people. I really, people don’t believe that I was cluttery at one point. And I’m like, no, I’m still cluttery at some points, but.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

still cluttering. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:09)
I’m not afraid

to invite you into my house. So I wanted to talk about what are some key things that look different now than they did when I was clutter free. number one, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. And this has been a huge shift for me because I would always think as I’ve…

Tonya Kubo (02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:32)
pretty much always been a Monday through Friday, nine to five kind of person and who actually works nine to five. Let’s be clear, it’s eight to six. But I’ve pretty much been that person my whole life and I was just so busy during the week that I’m like, I’m just gonna save all this up for the weekends. And I don’t live like that anymore. Like as I am leaving a room, I’m like, are there things I can grab to throw away, to put away, to declutter?

Tonya Kubo (02:39)
Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:00)
Is that similar for you?

Tonya Kubo (03:03)
Yeah, I mean, I still think, you know, because my kids are younger, right? Like our house is always in some state of shambles, but you know, little things that I used to on Fridays clean off my desk, for instance. And now it’s just at the end of the day, right? It just is so much easier to take like a handful of stuff at the end of each day than to have to make multiple trips every Friday.

Kathi Lipp (03:06)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It makes such a difference, right? Because I don’t know, there’s just something about like, I’ve saved this up for an entire week. You know, instead of just saying, okay, a little bit of time, a little bit of time, my brain has shifted into small amounts of decluttering instead of huge mountains of decluttering. Okay, so that’s number one. Tonya, we’re going back and forth. Tonya, what’s number two?

Tonya Kubo (03:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (03:54)
something that you don’t do now that you live clutter-free.

Tonya Kubo (03:57)
Okay, so this might seem silly, but I genuinely used to think unloading the dishwasher took 30 minutes and now I realize it takes about three and a half. So I don’t put off unloading the dishwasher till the weekend. Like seriously, I made it into such a big job in my head and I don’t need more.

Kathi Lipp (04:11)
Right?

Yeah, yes,

I feel like doing the dishes could take a half hour if you’ve got a lot of dishes piled up if you have things that need to be soaked like, you know, deep, deep scrub. Right.

Tonya Kubo (04:24)
Right, but I didn’t say doing the dishes, Kathi. I just

said unload the dishwasher.

Kathi Lipp (04:30)
just thinking maybe that’s why your brain was playing tricks on you and here’s what I know is when you when you unload the dishes here’s the magical thing it’s easier to load the dishes I know that seems like it should be obvious but our cluttery people will get that

Tonya Kubo (04:42)
Right.

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:49)
Yeah, okay. Number three, I don’t stand next to the gas pump while it’s filling up. I, okay, so I think a lot of our cluttering friends will get this. I went, those small moments, like just like you were talking about with the microwave, I unload the dishwasher in the two and a half minutes that my, or I at least get it started in the two and a half minutes that my oatmeal is cooking.

Tonya Kubo (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:18)
And

so now I am married to somebody who does quiet contemplation while his coffee is warming up. And I’m like, you know what, we just live different lives. while I’m pumping my gas, I clean out the car. I just grab a few things. I throw them into the garbage. I feel like that’s free garbage. Garbage is such a big deal up here.

Tonya Kubo (05:24)
Hahaha

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

it is free garbage. I am right there with you.

Kathi Lipp (05:45)
It makes me so happy. I can’t even stand it. Yeah, I’m never somebody who would bring garbage from my house to throw away. I’ve heard of people doing that. I know. But if I’ve got a McDonald’s cup, that that’s going in the garbage while I’m pumping. It is I’m doing all the things and even like our truck takes a long time to fill up. I have been known to we have a like a hand vac in the truck.

Tonya Kubo (05:53)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:14)
and I’ve been known to like vacuum things out while I’m doing, yeah, it makes me so happy I can’t even stand it. Okay, but I’m doing, what the core concept behind that is it just takes a moment to make a small difference. And like you just said with the unloading dishwasher and even with the, I don’t save up decluttering for the weekends. If I can do a little bit each day, man, the weekends can be for.

Tonya Kubo (06:17)
Nice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:42)
fun or bigger projects or things like that. Okay, number four, Tonya, what’s something that you don’t do now that you’re living clutter free?

Tonya Kubo (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t go shopping when I’m tired, hungry, or frustrated.

Kathi Lipp (06:56)
That’s my favorite time to go shopping. Okay, tell me more. Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
It’s everybody’s favorite time to go shopping.

Right. But I mean, something that I learned early on in my clutter free journey is that when I’m tired, I’m hungry or I’m frustrated, my tolerance, like my my impulse control is lower and my desire to soothe is higher. And so I feel like everything I see at the store is going to make me feel better. And it is not.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)
Yeah.

Mmm, good.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (07:26)
to make me feel better. I am still going to leave the store tired, hungry, and frustrated so I may as well just solve those problems before I go.

Kathi Lipp (07:33)
Okay, can I tell you how I’m even worse at this and it’s something I need to correct in my own life. So I go to the store, which is a chore, right? That is an errand. Right. And I feel like because I have done that, even when I was living in San Jose and things were like five minutes, like, look at me checking things off of my list. I deserve a little treat, a little treaty treat. Can we just say that shopping and Target

Tonya Kubo (07:42)
Yeah, it’s a jaunt for you. It’s a jaunt.

Hahaha

Kathi Lipp (08:02)
It’s so much better when you have Starbucks. And so like this is the thinking I have to unpack all the time in my cluttery journey. it just, makes a difference. It makes a difference when you say, and I just, but I try not to go, I pack snacks now in our car so that we are not so tempted.

Tonya Kubo (08:05)
I’m sure it is, I’m sure it is.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)
Like it’s okay every once in a while to go to Starbucks, but you don’t get Starbucks every time you leave the house. Yes, okay. And so tired, hungry, frustrated will lead you to, and here’s the other part of that that I think is you’re so wise because I’ll just throw things in my cart and I’ll say I’ll return them later if I’m frustrated. Like, you know, don’t go shopping for jeans when you’re tired, frustrated or hungry. That’s just the meanest thing you could do to yourself.

Tonya Kubo (08:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

No.

Kathi Lipp (09:00)
but then I’ll buy all the jeans and then I’m like, now I have to take them back. And then like, I already have a return right now of a shirt and it’s, we’re recording this around Christmas time. And I’m like, the last thing I want to do on earth is go into a store and return a shirt. Like I can’t think of anything I want to do less. Okay. Number five, I don’t leave a room without scanning the room. So.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi Lipp (09:27)
What that means is I don’t, I don’t just walk into another room. I will walk into another room, but I will grab the dish that’s on my desk. I will grab the shirt that needs to be returned. Can you tell I’m going through stuff? I will grab the jacket that needs to be hung downstairs. And here’s why I think that this matters. Even if I’m just going into Roger’s office, which is still on the top of the floor.

I’ll move those things to the top of the stairs so that I used to think if I’m gonna do something, I need to do it all the way. And no, I just need to push it forward. I need to push that chore forward. And that makes a huge difference. It’s like, even if I can’t unload the entire dishwasher while my oatmeal is cooking, I’m pushing it forward enough and I’m yelling up to Roger,

Tonya Kubo (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
The dishes are clean, I’m just not done yet. And so he knows not to put dirty dishes in there. But if you can push it forward, then the next time you’re reheating your coffee, you can push it forward another minute and you might get it done. And so scanning a room, seeing what can I push into place? Because here’s what I know, if I leave it all until I have time, then I’m gonna spend half a day going up and down the stairs. And that sounds like my worst nightmare, I hate that stuff.

Tonya Kubo (10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (10:56)
Yeah, okay. So we have gone through our top five. We’re gonna take a quick break, pay some bills. We’re gonna come back and Tonya is gonna talk about how she doesn’t apologize. I can’t wait to hear about how you do this. Teach me, Obi-Wan. We’ll be right back. Okay, guys, we are back with 10 things I don’t do now that I live clutter free. So Tonya, you say you don’t apologize. For what?

Tonya Kubo (11:23)
I

apologize for the condition of my house.

Kathi Lipp (11:26)
So tell me more. Tell me how I can get brave and be really like, just come on in.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)
well, just stop doing it. I mean, that’s how I did it, right? It was like a cold turkey. Like, I think there was a bit of a transition of where I would say, I probably should apologize for the state of my house, but I won’t. But I just don’t. And, you know, some people come in and say stuff and some people don’t, and I don’t really care. Because what I realize is we all have a different standard. You know, I used to apologize. And I realized that a lot of people

Kathi Lipp (11:37)
wow.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:03)
Like, first of all, I would apologize after spending hours doing a crisis clean because I knew other people would come in and like, and feel like my house was in complete disarray. And I was like, why am I acting like I didn’t just kill myself to make this house look nicer? And then I got to where, you know what? What do I care? mean, people come in, sometimes people are like, wow, you must be really busy. I am. That’s not untrue. I am really busy.

Kathi Lipp (12:13)
Mmm.

Right, right.

It’s a great friend test, right? Can we hang? Can we hang? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (12:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I’m just

like, there’s nothing they could say that’s probably not true to some degree. And I’ve had like repair guys come in, it’s funny, is because the repair guys will come in and our front room doesn’t have flooring. We tore up the flooring and then building costs went up so we have not replaced the flooring. And they’ll go to put the booties on them like, yeah, that’s cute. You don’t have to do that here. And they’ll look around and they’re like, okay.

Kathi Lipp (12:49)
All right. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (13:01)
Every now and then they’ll say, are you sure? Like, yeah, no, we’re good here.

Kathi Lipp (13:06)
Yeah.

Well, it’s so true. Our lives are all in transition, right? And when you have kids, the amount of day-to-day clutter goes up exponentially. Or maybe you’re in the midst of a big project. You know, I’ll never forget during the launch of Clutter Free, book, the state my house was in. It was like, we can’t take any pictures. And just recently,

Tonya Kubo (13:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:35)
Tenneil who manages our social media said, Kathi, can we get a video of you pushing in a chair? And right now we’re in Christmas crazies. I’m like, it would take me 45 minutes to get to a place to push in a chair. Right, it’s, yeah, because there’s all the fudge making supplies right there, yeah. So are you really, are you using marshmallow fluff in it?

Tonya Kubo (13:45)
No. To push in the chair. You’re like, “‘Cause I can’t get to the chair to push it in.”

Yes, I’m making fudge this weekend too. Anyway, I am.

I am using marshmallow fluff in it. I took a whole class on how to make fudge using marshmallow fluff. It was fun.

Kathi Lipp (14:05)
I saw that I saw that well,

I saw the fudge class. I didn’t know that there was the marshmallow fluff. Yeah, I’m very excited I’m just using a recipe off the internet But as you know, we live next to not next to you know half I don’t know 20 minutes away from a gourmet chocolate shop, which is the only Yeah, they’re a whiner They ship they’re so good but also let’s just say their fudge has gourmet prices and I’m like

Tonya Kubo (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Little John’s, they ship. Little John’s, you should order from Little John’s.

Yes

Kathi Lipp (14:35)
How much would it cost for me to do this? And Roger’s like, we can buy their other stuff. We never have to buy fudge again. And I was like, I’m an indentured fudge servant now. Got it. Okay. Okay. You know what? It’s good. Hey, speaking of fudge, number seven, I don’t buy all the gear for hobbies unless I have a pattern of doing the hobby. Because here’s what I’ve discovered, Tonya. You know what my hobby is? Buying the stuff for hobbies.

Tonya Kubo (14:44)
Yes, I am too.

Mmm.

I

was gonna say preparing to have a hobby.

Kathi Lipp (15:07)
So here’s what I said, know, like one of the recipes that I am preparing right now called for a candy thermometer. And I’m like, ugh.

Tonya Kubo (15:17)
I need that for the fudge recipe with the marshmallow fluff. You need a candy thermometer.

Kathi Lipp (15:20)
Okay, so here’s what I told

myself if I prepare three recipes right now that don’t require the the thermometer if I if I prepare these three Christmas gift II things then I am allowed to buy a Candy thermometer and I got one by the way Michaels has 30 % off coupons for a while now. So go check that out I got the I think it’s the Wilson one but

Tonya Kubo (15:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ew.

Kathi Lipp (15:49)
I cannot tell you how many hobbies I’ve invested in and had to keep that stuff because I invest I told myself I’ve invested so heavily I need to keep all this stuff. It just it doesn’t make sense and it’s not the right thing. So I no longer I need to have a pattern of Can I start this hobby with stuff I have or can I start this hobby for less than ten dollars? And if I find that I really enjoy it

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Then I will keep going but I am NOT going to go I’ll just say my history is buying at a professional level and performing at an amateur level like it’s not good

Tonya Kubo (16:30)
I

know that feeling though. If I have the same paints and brushes that Bob Ross has, I will make the same pictures that Bob Ross made.

Kathi Lipp (16:37)
Right.

Right, right.

And you know, our friend Cheri Gregory, friend of the podcast, Cheri Gregory calls it buying to become and I have done that for years and years. Okay, Tonya, number eight.

Tonya Kubo (16:49)
Yeah.

Okay, I kind of stole from you because you said that you scan a room before you leave. Before I go to bed, I make a round through the house specifically for dirty dishes. And here’s my, if I made a round through my house for decluttering, I would never make it to bed. But I can make a pass through my teeny tiny house just for dirty dishes in about 25 minutes. And it makes my life so much easier that

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

so smart.

No, of course not.

Hmm

Tonya Kubo (17:24)
Like, know, because all run into bulls, where are all the bulls? The bulls are in the kids’ room underneath the bed. Why are they underneath the bed? I actually can’t answer that question, but that is where I find them.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Okay, Tonya, we are missing a bowl right now. There are just two of us. There are just two of us. This giant glass bowl, we cannot find. Is it under Lily’s bed? That’s my question now.

Tonya Kubo (17:36)
Maybe it’s under my bed!

It’s probably under Lily’s bed, and this is the worst of it, right? Is the way that Abby’s bed works, it sits lower to the ground. So Abby shoves stuff underneath Lily’s bed too. It’s not even all Lily’s fault.

Kathi Lipp (17:52)
Ugh.

Poor Lily. I’m sorry Lily. I did not mean to throw you under the bus bus or the bed Okay, so you do so what 25 minutes that seems like a long time so break that down for me Really okay

Tonya Kubo (18:13)
It’s a lot of dishes in my kid’s room and a lot of

dishes by Mr. Kubo’s desk. So it’s two trips. Two to three trips from the girl’s room, two trips from Brian’s desk and then

Kathi Lipp (18:20)
Got it. So you’re having to make multiple trips. Got it. Okay. And then

And and you’re

loading you’re soaking all that. Okay, that makes more sense. Okay Okay, that makes total sense. And I think doing doing a round of dishes I really feel like when everything else in your life falls apart the two things that you need to stay on top of are dishes and laundry because Mm-hmm. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (18:49)
Yes and I will say just really quickly that 25 minutes

does include a good five minute temper tantrum of my gosh what is growing in this thing.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)
I love it. Yeah, the the the Dishes and laundry if you stay on top of those like I don’t care how crunchy your kitchen floor gets I don’t care, you know at the I would say the third thing but this doesn’t have to be done as Much is staying on top of bills. Those are the important things that if you fall behind on them It’s going to be super painful to recover from them

Tonya Kubo (19:01)
That’s in there too.

No.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:25)
But if you can stay on top of those three things, it takes almost the same amount of energy to mop the floor when it’s been a week or five weeks. Like, I don’t want you to have to go five weeks, but if you need to in a crisis, you can. And yeah, and also stay on top of your garbage and recycling. number nine. This is my last thing of things I don’t do now that I live clutter free.

Tonya Kubo (19:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:55)
Okay, I try not to I’m still working through this but I’m much better than I used to be I don’t compare my stuff to my friends stuff so Or stuff on social media. There is always a new thing That would make my life two percent easier or two percent better Not not my entire life if something made my entire life two percent better you bet I’m going to invest in that but like

Tonya Kubo (20:04)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:25)
Let’s say, know, my, my robot vacuum, there are now robot vacuums that you can control remotely. Like I could be at my mom’s house and now I could get that doesn’t make my life better enough to upgrade my robot. Like my robots fine. We get along. We, she does what she needs to do. I’m sorry. It’s normally a he. I don’t know why I said she, cause I like for all my domestic labor to be he’s.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)
Because I just think that’s fair But I Just because somebody else has something that has made their life Infamates Lee better. It doesn’t mean that I need to upgrade it. I I try when I see you wearing a cute sweater I’m not going to say you know what? need that cute sweater. I’m gonna I’m one of things I’m trying to do is go into my own closet

Tonya Kubo (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:22)
and see

my own cute sweaters and the things that make me happy. So I’m trying really hard to reframe what my friends have. And also that can be a form of jealousy. I can just say, you know what? I’m really happy that Tonya has that sweater. I think she looks great in it. She’s having fun with it. And it makes me happy to see her in it. And it doesn’t have to be, I don’t have to own it for it to bring me happiness. So trying to stay out of that comparison trap.

Tonya Kubo (21:33)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:52)
And I’m sure when you go into people’s houses that have floors, that can be hard.

Tonya Kubo (21:57)
I do have floor envy right now, I’m not gonna lie. If you’ve got luxury vinyl plank, I’m eyeballing your floors, let me tell ya.

Kathi Lipp (21:59)
I you do.

And I do have that upstairs and I wrestled over that decision for about two years And I’m so glad we pulled the trigger It’s so painful to get flooring done just because of all the moving and shifting and all that kind of stuff Okay, Tonya round out our list. Give us number ten. All right

Tonya Kubo (22:09)
Yeah, no.

It is.

My cluttery peeps will get this. I no longer gain comfort or security from having full shelves, full drawers, etc.

Kathi Lipp (22:33)
yeah, space scares us, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)
Space is scary because space is scarcity and lack and my gosh what

if I don’t have enough. But if things are full even if they’re full of stuff that you haven’t worn in 22 years you believe you have enough clothes if for some reason they stopped making all clothing.

Kathi Lipp (22:48)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Tonya, this is so interesting. A number of people on TikTok and other apps are doing a no buy 2025, right? And the conventional wisdom is declutter your closet so you can see what you have. And then, so you know what you have, because it is, it’s easier to see what you have when you have less stuff in your closet.

Tonya Kubo (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
But I heard one woman, I thought this was so interesting. And I’m just gonna throw this out there for your reaction. She goes, I am not decluttering before my 2025. Because when I declutter, I feel like there is empty space. And I feel this urge to fill that space with shopping, with thrifting, with all these other things. So what she is doing is she is.

Tonya Kubo (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:50)
putting some of her clothes into another closet, including clothes she likes, so that she will, she remember, I’ve got more stuff. I don’t know, how does that hit you? I thought it was really interesting. Really.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I have a friend who does that actually. she has,

yeah, so she boxes up all of her extra stuff, even if it’s in the current season. And she has it all in like the rafters of her garage. But whenever she’s like, I wanna go shopping, she just goes and she takes a box down and she trades out pieces.

Kathi Lipp (24:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I think it’s really interesting. And so I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I’m going to try the other closet boxing because yeah, when I pull out all my winter stuff, I’m so happy. I’m like, I never need to go shopping again. And then after about two weeks, I’m like, you know, people are really into these green grandpa sweaters and like, okay, Kathi, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Tonya Kubo (24:50)
Yeah,

see, and I’m the person, I want all of my clothing to be able to fit in this much of my closet. Like, I don’t wanna ever change anything out. I don’t wanna work that hard. I’m just so, like, I don’t wanna say lazy, but really it’s just like, that is just something that takes such a high level of perceived energy for me that I’m like, I’m good.

Kathi Lipp (24:56)
Yes, you.

Yeah.

Okay, see, even within our Cluttery community, we all have our own little quirks. And that’s why it’s okay for you to forge your own path, but think about the wisdom that will get you to the next space in your Clutter-free journey. I hope one of these has inspired you today. Tonya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (25:18)
We do.

Thanks for having me.

Kathi Lipp (25:37)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you always wanted to live.

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