#662 &#8211; How I Organized My Pots &#038; Pans Cupboard: Simple Solutions for Kitchen Chaos

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:06)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutterfree Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And today we’re going to get as practical as you can get. We’re going to be as intentional and you know I like the word prescriptive but Tonya can we just call it what it is, it’s bossy right?

Tonya Kubo (00:31)
Hey, I love to be bossed around. And I think our listeners do too.

Kathi Lipp (00:33)
Right?

Yes. Well, you know, in our paid group, we have an opportunity, at least this year, where you and I got on calls with people for 15 minutes and really what they want. First of all, they want to just unburden on somebody that knows that they’re not going to be judged by. But the other thing is they want to be bossed around. yeah, and I love that for us. And so

Tonya Kubo (00:58)
yeah.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
Today we’re gonna get down into the nitty gritty. We’re talking about the dreaded kitchen cupboard. And let me just tell you the worst one of all is where the pots and pans live. Is that a sore spot for you or have you got that all figured out?

Tonya Kubo (01:19)
Well, I wouldn’t say I have it all figured out, but mine hang. So they don’t get like they do for some people, right? Where they’re like piling. So my issue is actually the lids because the lids don’t hang. So I have the lids like stacked on the shelf and then sometimes they fall on my head.

Kathi Lipp (01:23)
interesting.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I could

see where that would happen. Well, we’ve got approximately 20 minutes that we are and we’ve got a little commercial break, but otherwise all we’re going to be doing is talking about pots and pans because here’s the thing friends. It’s the little things right and we want you to take those little spaces that can be a little annoying can be a little frustrating and let’s let’s tackle them. Okay, we’re going to tackle them together Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (02:07)
Alrighty, sounds good. So, Kathi if you don’t mind, I’m gonna reverse our roles here a bit, because I am curious about, I guess what I wanna start off with is, because I’ve been to your house, but most of our listeners haven’t, I want you to describe what was the pots and pans cupboard like before you tackled it.

Kathi Lipp (02:14)
Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so, you know, as we’ve talked about many times before, you come to my house and you don’t see a ton of clutter. But I will always be a cluttery girl at heart. That’s my deep, that’s my, that’s my truth. That is my truth. And that pots and pan cupboard, you know, when we moved in, of course I organized it. I did everything I could, but it’s just, if, if nobody lived there, it would stay so much more organized. But sadly, you know, I’m a cook.

Tonya Kubo (02:38)
Mm-hmm.

That is your truth.

Kathi Lipp (03:01)
I like to cook and I’m very fortunate that Roger puts dishes away, but it was always a pain. It was because it’s low. It’s a corner cupboard. And so you kind of have to dig back in there. And if you really want some stuff that’s all the way in the back, holy cow. And so a lot of things got shoved and I am a collector at heart. So there were things like

Tonya Kubo (03:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
weird cake pans and different kinds of muffin tins and three of my favorite kind of saucepan, things like that. So it just felt like, okay, once I could get those pans out of there, I could get to cooking. But there was always that kind of burden in there.

Tonya Kubo (03:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and so your corner cabinet, because I’ve been to your house, I think one of the issues, and I think a lot of people have this issue too, is that the opening to the cabinet is actually much more narrow than the cabinet. It’s like the Harry Potter closet, right? It’s like you open it up and it’s like, hey, there’s a whole room in here. So I’m just curious, did you find that when you had people over, because you entertain a lot, did their way of putting…

Kathi Lipp (04:06)
Yes, yes. Right, absolutely. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:23)
things away kind of add to the challenge. It’s not that we’re upset that anybody would come over and put your dishes away because we know that that’s a gift. That’s a blessing. But I’m just curious if yes, you and Roger maybe had some difficulty, but maybe some guests possibly added to the difficulty.

Kathi Lipp (04:29)
Never. Yes. Yes.

Well,

I think some people don’t want to see things. They’re like, if it’s hidden, it’s not clutter. So they might put a pot or something into a deep stock pot. And I might not see that for four months. other problem is that it’s like a cave, right? And I didn’t want, I know that there are some fancy people out there who is like,

Tonya Kubo (04:43)
Mmm. Got it.

Keep right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:07)
I had somebody come rewire my cabinets. I don’t have rewire my cabinets kind of money. That’s just not something I’m choosing to spend money on at this time. So there were a lot of different, you know, it was overcrowded. You couldn’t reach certain pots. I would actually have to call Roger from upstairs to grab some of those things. You know, there were duplicate, it was just a mess.

Tonya Kubo (05:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because I’m imagining part of it is also your arms aren’t long enough to get to the back, right? I mean, mine, I know mine aren’t long enough to get to the back of your cabinet.

Kathi Lipp (05:35)
Right, I…

I am the T-Rex of human beings. I have the shortest arms in the world. And you you mentioned lids. Lids are a real issue. And so, you know, we just had to deal with all that kind of stuff. I’m making it sound worse than it is. I’m compiling like three years of frustration into a, in three minutes. But I think there are other people who have felt this frustration.

Tonya Kubo (05:41)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

Well, but I don’t really feel like you’re making a bigger deal out of it than it is because to your point, I think everybody has these frustrations regardless of what the physical space looks like. I think all of us have some cabinet and oftentimes it’s our pots and pads cabinet where our arms aren’t long enough to get to the back. All of us have an issue with nesting like smaller items inside of larger items but then the largest item being so deep that you can’t see what’s inside.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (06:33)
Like, so I do think I appreciate the fact that you spent three minutes on this because I think you’ve listed all the pain points that our listeners are most likely to experience with our pots and pans. So now it’s the big question, Kathi, because this is the question that plagues everybody in our community. It’s what was your first move?

Kathi Lipp (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

So I finally had to admit to myself those little cake tins that were shaped like flowers. The one that was shaped like Thomas the Tank Engine. Those specialty things, dude, I’m just not that special. I’m just not. And I might imagine someday in the future when I have grandkids that they would want that train pan.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:17)
But you know, we have to come to the realization what our grandkids want is rarely what our kids wanted. And by the way, I don’t have anybody who is planning on having children in my family. So what was I holding on to those things for? And then, you know, there was so much someday in there is that, you know, I’ve realized keeping something that you use once a decade.

Tonya Kubo (07:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
isn’t worth losing daily cupboard space.

Tonya Kubo (07:49)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
It’s just not. It’s, you know, it’s so many of it would be more worth it to me to go to Michael’s, buy the cake pan, use it and immediately donate it. That would be a better use of my time, space, money and energy than keeping a cake pan I use once every 10 years. So I had to go through that cabinet and say,

Tonya Kubo (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:19)
If I’m not using this, why? So one of the things I did immediately, like one of the cake pans, I have a popover pan and I probably haven’t used that in a decade. And I’m like, I’m not willing to get rid of this. So I had to be willing to use it. So I made popovers, they were terrible. I’m going to make them again. I’m going to do it until I get it right. But if you’re going to hang on to something you haven’t used before.

Tonya Kubo (08:30)
Hmm.

haha

Kathi Lipp (08:47)
Are you imagining a life that you want to someday have or can you just use it right now? Say, I’m gonna try it and I’m gonna use it. if you’re willing to use it right away, I say keep it. If you’re not willing to use it right away, it’s probably time to get rid of it.

Tonya Kubo (09:04)
Yeah, well, and what I like about that perspective is it falls completely in line with our principle about negotiating space. I mean, there’s only so much real estate in a home and there’s only so much real estate that you can afford to designate for your pots and pans, right? Because there’s a whole lot more that goes into a kitchen. So those specialty pans, like they sound like the easiest decision to make, the best starting.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Right. Yes, yes.

Exactly. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (09:33)
But after that, it feels to me like everything else would be equal priority. So where did you go from there?

Kathi Lipp (09:38)
Hmm

Duplicates okay, so Tonya I fancy myself a cook. I know I know I know

Tonya Kubo (09:42)
no. Don’t pick

on my four muffin tins, Kathi Lip. Do not pick on my four muffin tins.

Kathi Lipp (09:47)
Okay, okay, can I just say though if

if you like me Use your four muffin tins at the same time Then you get to keep those muffin tins like I often will do a big batch of muffins and I will use both tins at the same time to bake a bunch of things at the same time and I also have big muffin tins

Tonya Kubo (10:06)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:17)
I also have teeny tiny muffin tins. And by the way, I use all of those. So I have two regular muffin tins, one big and one teeny tiny, and I use all of them. So you know what? I kept all of them. I’m about as close to a, I don’t want to say a professional cook, because that doesn’t describe me. But I did write a cookbook and I had to use these things. But how many times did I use the same size

Tonya Kubo (10:24)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:47)
I do have some fry pans that are slightly larger, some that are slightly smaller, and those were perfectly good. So I gave away some of my duplicate, you know, the pan that you’re like, okay, if the apocalypse happens and I need it, that pan is there. Well, the apocalypse doesn’t happen, but you know what, COVID did, and I never used that pan, so it was time to get rid of it. So, at,

Tonya Kubo (10:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Got it, okay.

Kathi Lipp (11:14)
Ask yourself if you really need three stockpots. If not, donate or sell or buy nothing group or something like that. And I’m pointing at me because I have two, here’s the thing, I wrote a book about soup. I kept too many stockpots. It’s time to, because I have slow cookers. I have other big pots. I don’t need, is it two or three stockpots? I don’t know, but you know what? Yeah, sometimes you have to do this in layers. There’s layers.

Tonya Kubo (11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And the muffin tins thing, that was a big argument I had with my best friend, Amber, if you’re listening, this is about you. Because I had four muffin tins and she was just like, you only need one. And I’m like, no, because I oftentimes will make two dozen muffins, two dozen cupcakes. And she was like, yes. So you bake them in one, you empty those out to cool and then you do the other. And I’m like, you obviously do not understand my workflow in the kitchen.

Kathi Lipp (11:50)
Hahaha!

Yes.

No,

Tonya Kubo (12:11)
I do not want to wait for the muffins to cool, to take them out, to then

Kathi Lipp (12:12)
no. Right, right.

Tonya Kubo (12:15)
refill them. That feels like dead time. So thank you for validating my four muffin tins. That’s really what this is about. This is validating me in a 20 year old argument. Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (12:18)
And Kim.

Yes. And

Tonya, also, what’s the storage harm in those muffin tins? Because they nest right into each other. So I’m giving you a cupcake pass.

Tonya Kubo (12:32)
right. That is true.

Yes, I get the cupcake pass. I’m so excited. Okay, so we’ve removed our specialty pans that we’re not using and we’re not willing to use. We have gotten rid of our duplicates. What’s next?

Kathi Lipp (12:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

So I just think getting rid, when you get rid of those duplicates, I want you to think about who can I give these to? Sometimes our first thing is who can I sell these to? I don’t think, I think oftentimes if maybe we’re a little bit more on the side, this side of 40 years old than we are on that side of 40 years old. And to think through, you know,

Do I really need the money for this or could I help somebody like people helped me when I was first starting out? You know that extra muffin tin. So could you use that it organizes your space and then you act, you know, we can bless someone else by passing on items we don’t actually use because that may become their favorite muffin tin.

Tonya Kubo (13:42)
that totally makes sense. Okay, well, we’re gonna have to pay some bills, take a break. But when we come back, dear listener, do not leave us because now that we’ve talked about how we’ve minimized the pots and pans area, we’re gonna talk about organizing.

All right, so we are back and we are going to hear from Kathi. Kathi, you are going to talk to us about how you organized your pots and pans after you decluttered all the excess that you didn’t need.

Kathi Lipp (14:11)
Right. Okay, so one of the first things I did was I installed lighting. Now, like I said, this sounds like a rich person solution, right?

Tonya Kubo (14:21)
I

was gonna say I need more info on this Kathi. Yeah?

Kathi Lipp (14:24)
Okay, Tonya, this may be

my favorite discovery so far of 2020. This may encompass 2024 and 2025. So I just did an AI search. How do I get lighting into my cupboard without rewiring things? And there is, and I’ll link it in the show notes, okay? You install a magnet on top of your cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (14:43)
Okay.

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (14:53)
All right, and this magnet is the other side of the magnet of a light bar. Okay, it’s a light bar. So you can pull this light bar out, but it just slaps up there with a magnet. And you can recharge this light bar on a USB charger. So the same thing that you use to charge your cell phone, you can use this to recharge that bar. And here’s the beautiful thing, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (15:03)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:23)
it is motion activated. So.

Tonya Kubo (15:26)
So

you don’t have to worry about leaving it on.

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Right, it’s not a flip on flip off. It is when I open the cupboard, it flips on and when I close the cupboard, it turns off. And we’ve had this for about three months now and have not had to recharge it yet.

Tonya Kubo (15:44)
that is so nice because we have tap lights in our deep cabinets, but the problem is as they get left on and then they overheat.

Kathi Lipp (15:47)
Yes, yeah, right.

we don’t want that.

Tonya Kubo (15:54)
No, you do not want overheating. No, that’s a bad idea. So this with the motion activate. my gosh, this is brilliant. How’d you find him, Kathi? AI. It was AI.

Kathi Lipp (15:56)
No.

I just, AI, I just said, here’s the

problem, here’s the problem. And it said, have you tried this? I’m like, why no, I haven’t tried that. So I will link those. You can get them on Amazon. You can get them at Lowe’s. You can get them anywhere. They’re one, they are life-changing. Can I tell you, nothing makes me smile more these days than opening that cabinet and the light coming on after six years of it being a cave.

Tonya Kubo (16:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, well, that would make me smile. I’m going to smile the next time I’m at your house and I get to use it. If you find me in your kitchen just opening and closing the cabinet, you’ll know what I’m doing now.

Kathi Lipp (16:33)
Yes.

Yes. Yes.

I would

not blame you at all. I would not blame you at all.

Tonya Kubo (16:45)
Okay, so that has to be like the highlight of this episode for me personally, but there is more to the pots and pans area in a kitchen than just that. What are you doing it with bakeware?

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
Yeah, yes. Yes.

Yeah, so let’s talk about the infamous muffin tins and like little cookie sheets and things like that. got, and guys, we’re gonna link all of this in the podcast notes so you can go and check out exactly what we’re talking. Cause isn’t a podcast the best place to display storage organization, right? know, my audio is our best forms, yes. But we will put it in the show notes. This is just a wire wrap.

Tonya Kubo (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Why yes, yes it is. Show notes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)
that

is, it’s a little bit wider than like what you would use to organize papers. But I just have it all standing up and it’s easy to grab. And you can see what you have. So it’s just a simple wire organizer. But the main thing is you have to declutter what you’re not using because if you’re still are trying to organize chaos, it’s never going to happen.

Tonya Kubo (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:50)
But if you’re organizing what you actually use, it’s gonna be beautiful.

Tonya Kubo (17:55)
Yeah, well, and I like that idea because, with cookie sheets or baking sheets, I guess we call them because we don’t just put cookies on them. Muffin tins and such. Stacking them flat just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Kathi Lipp (18:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

It doesn’t

work, it doesn’t work. And this simple thing just saves me so much time and rummaging around. I’m no longer banging things around. I hate being frustrated. I hate being frustrated in the kitchen and this has solved a lot of that frustration.

Tonya Kubo (18:14)
Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, okay, so before we run out of time, you mentioned earlier about having a lids solution. Talk to me about pots, lids, all that good stuff.

Kathi Lipp (18:29)
Yeah.

Well, okay,

so this, after the light situation, this may be my favorite thing. This is, it’s hard to describe. It’s like a tower that is, has separate shelves that you can store your pots, your pans, and your lids on. Now, a lid solution for you, Tonya, because you don’t store your pots and pans like that, could just be that wire rack we talked about.

Tonya Kubo (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that’s

what I was thinking about. I was like, some people are gonna get that for baking sheets. I might be getting that for my lids.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yes.

Yes,

absolutely, absolutely. But this one, the one that I got, it just has different shelves jutting out from it. And I have got it all set up for my fry pans and things like that. And I just bought one for my pots, because I wanted to buy one to see, does this actually work for me? And Roger and I, who have very different organizational styles,

Tonya Kubo (19:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:33)
Like everything we’ve talked about here so far has worked for both of us. yeah, so that’s, talk about miracles. But it keeps your pots upright. You’re not scratching your pots and pans by stacking them inside. And let’s be honest, pots don’t stack nicely, you know, with the handles and stuff. So it makes it so much easier. The one thing I’m going to tell you though is before you order, measure.

Tonya Kubo (19:38)
nice.

They don’t. No.

Kathi Lipp (20:03)
You know, well, here’s the thing. When I went on Amazon to order this, it said it had a satisfaction ranking of like 4.7, but it said this is an often returned item. I’m like, well, if people are so satisfied, why are they returning it? Because it didn’t fit in their cupboard.

Tonya Kubo (20:05)
This sounds like the voice of experience.

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (20:30)
That

was my own sleuthing. So finally I’m getting smart. I’ve got one thing I bought for everybody at Christmas in 2023 were these mini measuring tapes. They look like dull measuring tapes, but they go out, I think either two or three feet and I keep one in my kitchen. And before I order something, I make sure that I can measure that space. And it makes such a difference.

Tonya Kubo (20:38)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

cool. Can we put that in the show notes too, Kathi? Okay. Measuring tape. I put Barbie measuring tape on my notes because I’ll know what that means. Okay. So let me recap really quickly because we are out of time, but you’re so you minimize by getting rid of the specialty items. You got rid of the duplicates and then your three tips in terms of organizing what was left is you got a light.

Kathi Lipp (21:02)
Yes, I will make a note to do that.

Yes, exactly, perfect. Yes, exactly.

guess.

Tonya Kubo (21:29)
that is rechargeable does not involve rewiring anything nor the investment that it would take for electrical systems like that. You got a bakeware rack so that you can vertically stack your cookie sheets, your muffin tins. Then you got a pot organizer, which I think the pot organizer is my favorite idea too, even though it doesn’t apply to my situation because I have had to get rid of really nice pots because they scratched.

Kathi Lipp (21:29)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

right, exactly.

Tonya Kubo (21:55)
They were too scratched up and I love

the idea of storing them in a way that keeps them protected like that. Is there anything else you would add for us today?

Kathi Lipp (22:01)
Yeah.

say that if you think you need everything that you have but there are some things that are iffy could you put those things into a storage container for like three months and see if you actually use them and if you’re not using them then that’s your sign to say it’s okay to give them away and also another thing to think about is

Tonya Kubo (22:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:35)
there are some libraries that will let you check out cake pans. So if cake pans are something that you are interested in, I love libraries these days. It’s not just about books anymore. You could go check out a Thomas the Tankin, or let’s be clear, let’s bring it for 2025, a bluey cake pan, right? That’s right. And so you could check that out.

Tonya Kubo (22:48)
I love libraries too.

Bluey cake pan baby.

Kathi Lipp (23:05)
and not have to store it in your house, which I think those are two tips about keeping some of that chaos out of your house. That’ll make it much easier. And by the way, Tonya, this is gonna be so much easier to clean. And you know, it’s.

Tonya Kubo (23:17)
What I was gonna

ask, like now that it is all organized, I think one of the issues I see from listeners who write in is keeping it that way. And so, you you brought up some good points is you’re not gonna restock with specialty cake pans if you can check your local library first. It’s easier to clean. Any recommendations when it comes to cleaning?

Kathi Lipp (23:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yes.

I love a good handi-vac, I’m not gonna lie. That’s my favorite thing to do. And then if you are, I just, let’s keep it simple, just a rag. And I love the Method grapefruit. Have you ever smelled that? You may have smelled it at my house, yeah. Or somebody, yeah, I don’t like the taste of grapefruit, but the smell makes me so happy. And.

Tonya Kubo (23:42)
Okay. I love a good handiwork too.

Mmm, I do. I like a good grapefruit smell.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:05)
I don’t have to do it very often because we’re not putting dirty things in there, but you know, every once in a while, but just that handy vac going around there, guys, I want you to smile when you go to your pots and pans. And I didn’t know that was a space that could make me smile, but it really does.

Tonya Kubo (24:23)
my gosh, well hey, I think every part of your house, like you deserve for every part of your house to make you smile. And so what I would love to do is I would love to invite our listeners to join us in our Facebook group. That’s Kathi with an I dot link slash CFA. And I want to see their before and after transformations of their pots and pans cabinets. And of course, if there’s any questions that they might have. Anything else you want to add before we sign off, Kathi?

Kathi Lipp (24:29)
Hmm. Yes.

Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, we have this great download just step by steps and steps of how to you know Obviously my thought is listen to this podcast episode on repeat as you’re doing this because you’ll feel encouraged But we also have a download that you can go and get the step-by-steps to clean out that cupboard Yeah, all of that, but look at our show notes to go check out those Amazon links I think those will really encourage you and it’s going to provide solutions

Tonya Kubo (25:02)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:19)
for like, can’t I keep this organized? We got you, we got you.

Tonya Kubo (25:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. So check the show notes for the Amazon links, check the show notes for a link to the Facebook group and check the show notes for the download. That I think is especially important.

Kathi Lipp (25:35)
Perfect.

See you.

Tonya Kubo (25:43)
I don’t have the script for the close.

Kathi Lipp (25:45)
I’m

sorry, my bad. Well, friends, we, Tonya and I hope that we’ve given you some ideas and some encouragements to do that corner of your house that, you know, has maybe been driving you crazy, but there are solutions and we wanna take all of those hurdles out of the way when it comes to getting dinner on the table and this is a great place to start. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now.

Go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

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#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 0 comments

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Listen Now

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of “Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women.” Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering actionable steps to create a more welcoming space and build connections within our communities. Whether you’re struggling with isolation due to clutter, life circumstances, or anything in between, this episode promises to equip you with practical, faith-driven insights to overcome loneliness. Don’t miss this valuable conversation that could inspire you to transform both your living space and your heart.

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As mentioned by Kathi:

Praying Through Loneliness – Kristen Strong

Jessica’s House

(in)courage – a DaySpring community

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

Praying Through Loneliness – Kristen Strong

Jessica’s House

(in)courage – a DaySpring community

Clutter Free Resources:

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Meet Our Guest

Kristen Strong

Kristen Strong is an author and speaker who specializes in writing about friendship, belonging, and navigating life’s transitions. As a military spouse married to a U.S. Air Force veteran of 26 years’ service, she brings unique insight into building community and finding belonging despite frequent moves and changes. Kristen has authored several books, including “Praying Through Loneliness,” “Friends Are Family We Choose,” “When Change Finds You,” “Back Roads to Belonging,” and “Girl Meets Change.” Originally from Oklahoma, she now lives in Colorado Springs with her husband David, and they are parents to three adult children, including twins. A regular contributor to (in)courage, Kristen’s writing focuses on helping women build meaningful friendships and find hope through life’s various seasons of change.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:13)
Well hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps every day to live with less clutter and more life. And I have a very special treat here today. As many of you know, I write for the Hallmark Day Spring organization, Encourage, and this is one of my Encourage sisters. Let’s just say I’m one of her little sisters because she has been doing this a lot longer than I have.

Kristen (00:38)
you

Kathi Lipp (00:41)
Guys, it is Kristin Strong and she is the author of the new book, Praying Through Loneliness, a 90 day devotional for women. And when I say that she is the author, we’ll talk more about that. Kristin, welcome to the podcast. I’m so thrilled to have you on here.

Kristen (00:54)
you

thanks for having me, Kathy. I’m so happy to be here too.

Kathi Lipp (01:02)
You know, it’s when we were originally talking about this book and I’m very excited because I got to be a part of this book and we’ll talk a little bit more about that later on. But, you know, I was like, I don’t know about praying through loneliness as necessarily a podcast episode just because I want to keep it centered on decluttering. My people show up for decluttering. I want to serve them for where they need. But the more I thought about it,

the more, you know, what kept coming to my mind is this phrase over and over again, clutter isn’t just about stuff, it’s about separation. And as I thought about it, you know, before I really went on my decluttering journey and got a little bit of freedom from all of this clutter, I remember it was very isolating. One of my, it’s a joke, but it’s not a joke, that 20 years ago,

If you showed up unexpectedly at my house for coffee, I would have served you on the front porch. I would often be embarrassed. Now, if I wanted to throw a party as long as I had two weeks notice and I killed myself, I wouldn’t say necessarily decluttering, but hiding all the clutter, I could do that. But I just found that…

Kristen (02:07)
you

Kathi Lipp (02:27)
I was in a place of shame and I was in a place of discouragement and fear that people would find out. And I think that a lot of people are in that circumstance that people don’t want to invite people over.

Kristen (02:31)
Mm.

you

Kathi Lipp (02:45)
or they don’t necessarily want their kids to invite friends over. Now, I’m guessing that clutter isn’t a struggle for you as much as it might be for some of my listeners, and maybe that’s not true, but I think we’ve all felt places of isolation and loneliness. What caused you to write this book? Where was the loneliness in your life showing up, Kristen?

Kristen (03:13)
Well, this may be surprising actually, the reason, how this book actually came to be is I had presented a book proposal, know, shopped it out to different publishers on a similar but different topic. the publisher really liked that. And actually that book is releasing in the spring.

Kathi Lipp (03:33)
Yeah.

Kristen (03:39)
But they, I thank you, thank you. But they, they had a, they’d already had like a couple of other books in a series of praying through serious praying through cancer, praying through infertility. And they really wanted to do a praying through loneliness. So as they read my proposal, they’re like, there’s really something here where we could.

Kathi Lipp (03:39)
Woohoo!

Mm, okay.

you

Kristen (04:01)
kind of also do a little pivot project that in line with these other two we’ve already done. And they asked me if I’d be interested in it. And you know, I’ve always really liked editing. And so I was like, yeah, I could just kind of get to get into the editing, you know, mucking the mire a little bit. And so that sounds, you know, like something I would like to do. And I felt at that point in my life really,

Kathi Lipp (04:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (04:28)
I’ve been a military wife for almost 20 years and certainly that brings up a recurring cycle of loneliness.

Kathi Lipp (04:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristen (04:38)
But I’d also lived in my kind of adopted hometown now of Colorado Springs, Colorado for over 10 years. And I started to understand how, you you can still, you can not move every whip stitch and still be real lonely. And so, you know, kind of bringing both of those into that, you know, as well as that follow on project I mentioned, you know, was, was something I was happy to talk about.

Kathi Lipp (04:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, I it’s interesting right because sometimes we can blame our loneliness on our circumstances but sometimes it is just The deeper truth in our life that we can be surrounded by a lot of people we can be a surrounded you know, we could have all the things that make it look like they should be fine and Inside still feeling that isolation and loneliness, you know

Kristen (05:21)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Kathi Lipp (05:37)
One one

of the interesting things about this book how many different contributors did you have to this book?

Kristen (05:43)
It was north of 45. yeah, yeah. So quite a few ended up contributing. You know, yeah, just the way it worked out. You know, I wanted to post a fewer contributors, but more pieces from each one. But then the way it kind of just worked out where people were, you know, were interested in just contributing one or two pieces. Then I was like, well, then that’s more voices. So that’s, you know, that’s great. So.

Kathi Lipp (05:46)
my goodness.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. We love to hear

more voices. I think that that’s really solid. Yeah, so the piece I wrote for this book actually was about chickens. thank you so much. You know, chickens will teach you a lot. And it’s so interesting because we had three old guard kind of chickens. We call them the OG, the original gangsters.

Kristen (06:13)
Mm-hmm.

It’s one of my favorites. I love it so much.

Hahaha.

Kathi Lipp (06:39)
And I didn’t

know this until I had chickens, but there really is a pecking order. There is a pecking order that the bigger battered chickens will let the lesser chickens know that they’re in trouble. And in this particular group, we had three old guard, and then we had Rocky and Bullwinkle, and Rocky was the smallest and the one who got picked on the most. And so when it was time to open up the coop, the three big girls would go,

Kristen (06:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:08)
Into the run, you know where they could see everything and they they wanted to be the first out the door when I let them out so that they could go, you know, see if there were worms or see if there was a new blade of grass and Bullwinkle would go out with them too. But when the door would open Bullwinkle would go back into the coop and let Rocky know you’re you’re okay. It’s okay to come out and

Kristen (07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:37)
I mean, I sit here and I think about it and it brings me to tears because I think about the way that I’ve needed some bullwinkles in my life to come back and say, you’re gonna be okay. I’m here with you. I’m not leaving you alone. I think in so many of my friends’ lives, whether they’ve been going through a divorce, whether they have

Kristen (07:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:06)
a medical diagnosis that has made them feel isolated, or in the case of many of the people who are listening here today, we just need somebody to tell us that we’re gonna be okay. And I wonder what you read from all those contributors or what you, first of all, if you’re the bullwinkle, if you’re the one who’s wanting to let somebody know they’re going to be okay,

Kristen (08:19)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)
How do you help the people who are struggling with isolation in your life? Maybe you’re not struggling, but you have a friend who’s going through a tough time. What did you learn from reading all these essays that might be able to help somebody who’s listening today, who wants to help that person who’s feeling isolated because of their clutter or because of something else going on in their lives?

Kristen (08:42)
Mm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, I think one of the great things I learned was what you shared, Kathy. You talked about the one more question, you know, just taking that time, you know, you you might ask somebody, well, how’s it going? And they’re like, doing OK. But you know how sometimes you can just sense like they’re saying they’re OK, but none of what I’m seeing is matching what they’re saying, you know. And so just I love the idea. And I’ve thought of that so many times since reading your piece about

Kathi Lipp (09:20)
Right, right.

Kristen (09:29)
just asking one more question, like even just, are you sure like it’s going okay, you know? And I just think that gives people that extra opportunity, that permission really, you know, cause you know, you don’t want to be a burden to people. And sometimes you think like, they don’t have time right now or they got a lot going on. And so I, you know, I’ll save it for another time. But when you ask, when you take a minute to go, are you sure everything’s going okay or…

Kathi Lipp (09:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (09:57)
you know, just probing a smidge deeper. It does a lot to give somebody that permission to feel they can share. And I would say that’s the other thing I learned is it’s not just, or had maybe re, I relearned perhaps, that it’s not just taking the time to ask those one more questions or to check in on your people. You know, send a little text, you know.

Kathi Lipp (10:13)
Mm-hmm.

Kristen (10:22)
take the time to tell them happy birthday when you remember things like that. But also then when you are like asking the one more question, it’s incumbent on the person on the receiving end to also be like, okay, I’m gonna, I just need to be vulnerable and share and not just refuse to do that. You know, it’s kind of both parts I think are really, really important in helping those.

Kathi Lipp (10:26)
Right.

Right.

Kristen (10:47)
you know, folks that are mitigating loneliness or going through a hard season of loneliness.

Kathi Lipp (10:53)
You know, it’s so interesting. I love how

God lines things up. We had our neighbor lost her husband three months ago, very unexpectedly, very quickly with cancer. And we had asked her to come over for dinner and she said, I’m not ready. And we said, we totally get it. And then she said, I think I’m ready. And so it was planned for Monday, you know, last Monday.

Kristen (11:03)
Mmm.

Mm. Ugh.

Kathi Lipp (11:22)
Well, the week before, I was doing a day-long coaching with two women who were part of a, are, one was the founder of Jessica’s House, which helps people in grief. And as we were going through the coaching, we were talking about what their audience’s fears are. And I’m like, let me tell you my fear.

Kristen (11:38)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:47)
I fear I’m going to say something stupid. I’ve got this woman coming to dinner on Monday and she said, you know, here’s something to say because instead of asking, how are you doing? The example you used was perfect. But like when you know somebody is going through grief, instead of saying, how are you doing? You just say, I’m so glad you’re here or I’m so glad.

Kristen (12:04)
Right, right.

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:15)
that I get to spend time with you tonight. And it was, it got, and then she said, the other thing to do is to mirror the person in front of you. So if she’s crying, it’s okay to cry. But if she is telling stories about the person she loves, and she said, go with that, ask, how did you guys meet? How, you know, where were you living when you met?

Kristen (12:27)
Mmm.

Mmmmm

Kathi Lipp (12:43)
And it gave me ways to get connected and to bridge that awkwardness that I think so many of us, when we know somebody maybe is hurting or is maybe feeling isolated because of circumstances, I love that God lined that up for the Thursday before the Monday. And I got to go in with a game plan. And that’s what I feel like so much of your book is, is people who have said, I have been lonely, so.

Kristen (12:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (13:12)
this is what I needed and I’ve had people in my life and this is how I reached out. So here’s what I wanna do. We’re gonna take a quick break and we’re gonna come back and I wanna talk about when you are that person is isolated. How do you take those next steps? So we’ll be back with Kristen Strong in just a moment.

Kristen (13:29)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (13:38)
Okay, friends, we talked about if you are the person who’s reaching back, if you’re the bullwinkle in the situation, you’re going back into the chicken coop and saying, it’s okay, Rocky, you can come out, they’re not going to terrorize you. But what if you’re the one who’s feeling isolated? It’s hard to be around people, especially, let’s talk about in the aspect of clutter, if you are feeling like what, so I want to give a couple of suggestions and then Kristen, I’m going to ask for a couple of suggestions.

Kristen (13:51)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:07)
from you. So one thing is, I would love to see you create one clutter free space. Your house does not have to be perfect. In fact, perfect makes people uneasy. It really does. But is there a little space in your house? Could it be two chairs at the dining room table? Could it be one couch in your living room that has a little coffee table there?

Kristen (14:14)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (14:34)
and you could just bring out some coffee. And you know what? If it needs to be your front porch right now, let it be the front porch. Unless you’re in one of those cold places in the United States right now. But if you’re saying my clutter feels ice laying, then I’m gonna ask you, you know what? Get a gift card to Starbucks and say, you know, I’ve got this $20 gift card to Starbucks. I would love to share it with you. Can we meet at the one over on Bollinger and Miller?

Kristen (14:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (15:03)
You know, set

up a space. If you’re feeling isolated and you’re feeling like, I don’t even know if I reach out, I’m scared to reach out because I wonder if I’ll be rejected. How do you start to get brave enough to do that, Kristen? Or what is one step that somebody who is feeling isolated could take?

Kristen (15:20)
Mm-hmm.

I think, well, can I give like a tiny story with it? So, and I wrote about this in that subsequent project I mentioned, but when I was a newer military wife, I had two young, I had twin, I don’t know, they must’ve been two year olds at the time. And we lived on base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. when you, listen, when you live on base, like picture the most un…

Kathi Lipp (15:28)
Yes, please. I would love it.

Kristen (15:51)
sexy housing, know, it’s like, you know, it’s like wall to wall linoleum and there’s no carpet even there’s just like the linoleum floors that are for mica cabinets. Anyway, I invited our some of the group in the neighborhood I was we were getting to know I invited them over for dinner. And then I panicked to the day before I was like,

Kathi Lipp (15:53)
Right. Yeah.

Kristen (16:14)
my house is not up to snuff for company. So I asked the girl I was the most close with, Rebecca, we’re still good friends today, but I asked Rebecca, I said, if I bring all the food over, can you just have everybody at your house? I essentially invited, you know, with kids, like 25 people to her house. And so she graciously said yes, but you know.

Kathi Lipp (16:18)
you

Yeah. my goodness.

Kristen (16:41)
like I really put her on the spot there and just realized like that was not a friend move right there. Especially in we all have the same house. like it was extra silly of me. But I say all that to say that I get like being scared to invite folks over. And I just think that like anything in life, if the more you practice it, the more you get successful at it. And, you know, I there I

Kathi Lipp (16:58)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (17:10)
I used to have this quote on our refrigerator and I think it was by I think maybe Irma Bombeck, but it said like, if you’re coming to see me, come on over. If you’re coming to see my house, call ahead, you know, and I just think, you know, I think most folks are coming to see you. It’s like you alluded to, Kathy, you know, I don’t want to go to a museum for dinner. I’m not going to relax. I’m going to be real tense the whole time. But I want, yeah, I I feel like a little bit of mess just

Kathi Lipp (17:22)
Right.

Right. Yes.

Kristen (17:38)
makes me like relax more and know that, you know, people don’t care.

Kathi Lipp (17:41)
Right.

especially if you’re bringing kids or, you know, it’s going to be, and I always think, you know, find that one spot in your house. Maybe it’s your backyard. Maybe it’s the kitchen table where you can just lean in and connect because here’s what I know. If you’re feeling lonely, there are other people around you who are feeling that same thing.

Kristen (17:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:07)
and

so desperately needs somebody to reach out. And so, yeah, it doesn’t have to be in your house. It could be, let’s meet at the park and I’ll pack a picnic lunch for the rest of us. Do you have, right? It doesn’t have to be in your home, but at the same time, maybe saying, okay, if I can get my living room to where I know that nobody’s gonna sit on anything sharp, we’re good to go. Like, you know, that’s…

Kristen (18:12)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

absolutely.

Yeah!

Kathi Lipp (18:36)
The baseline, that’s the baseline. What have you discovered about loneliness that you didn’t know before this project?

Kristen (18:38)
Yeah.

I think just how many different kinds of loneliness there are before this project. You know, and even when the publisher and I were going over it,

Kathi Lipp (18:51)
Hmm

Kristen (18:58)
it was very loneliness in terms of friendship, which is certainly a big valid kind of loneliness. But when I started talking with authors and they’re describing loneliness through chronic illness or loneliness because a close loved one died, the loneliness of looking different, the loneliness of being an empty nester, there’s just so many very, there’s so many.

Kathi Lipp (19:02)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kristen (19:25)
kinds of loneliness. And the interesting thing is, is though we all experience loneliness, you know, often in different ways, the pain in the midst of it is the same. So then the help you can get from it, even if you’re reading a devotional in the book that, you know, you may not identify with what the author exactly went through, you will glean a lot from the takeaways that she offers.

Kathi Lipp (19:36)
Mmm, yeah.

You know, we’re talking a lot about loneliness and some very actionable steps. I really like practical solutions. But prayer is part of this as well. And, you know, for me, the prayer, what prayer does is even if I’m not being fully honest with anybody else, maybe I’m not even being honest 100 % with my husband because I don’t want him to carry my burden.

I don’t want my mom to carry my burden, but I can always be fully authentic with God and say, this is where my pain’s coming from. And I love that God is the God of creativity and may come up with solutions that I wouldn’t even think to broach. How has prayer broken that stronghold of loneliness in your life?

Kristen (20:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

think because it really does show me how when you have nobody else around to help with to help just to help you feel less lonely when you have nobody else around God’s presence is enough and you can never get to that point of knowing it’s enough unless you know he’s he’s

the only one you really have. And I don’t mean to say that. I don’t mean to exaggerate. know, you know, Corey, Corey Tinboom said in when she was in the concentration camp, you never know that Jesus is all you need until Jesus is all you have. I’ve never been that lonely. Thank you. Thanks the good Lord. But, but I have had times where, and a story I write about in the book where I was worried I was having a miscarriage. My husband,

Kathi Lipp (21:14)
Yeah. No.

No, I have not either. Right.

Kristen (21:41)
was the nature of his job was unreachable at the time. I’m going to the ER by myself, know, no family around, no friends that I feel like, you know, I can call it like about 10, 11 PM when that happened. So, you know, like I have had times when I’ve been lonely and, and yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

That is a depths of loneliness that not

everybody has ever experienced.

Kristen (22:03)
Yeah, and so but I also experienced the depth of Jesus’s presence in that moment, you know when That I wouldn’t have necessarily experienced if if I’d had a posse of people around me, you know,

Kathi Lipp (22:08)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So guys,

if you are feeling that bitterness of loneliness and guys, I have been there, you I lived overseas. didn’t there was nobody who who, you know, I barely had people who spoke the same language as me because I didn’t know their language. There is loneliness there. But also, I know that when we experience that loneliness, God

Kristen (22:29)
Mm.

Kathi Lipp (22:47)
can meet us in that space and that place. And if you want to hear the stories of 40 plus other women who have been in that place and how God and others have met them, praying through loneliness, a 90 day devotional for women. Kristen, thanks so much for being on Clutter Free Academy.

Kristen (23:08)
thank you for having me. I love what you’re doing here, you and your community, and I’m grateful for you, Kathy.

Kathi Lipp (23:14)
My community is the best community. I mean, I’m not comparing, but I’m just going to say they really are the best human beings and friends. If you want to pick up this book for yourself or maybe for somebody you love, available. We’ll put the link in the show notes, but it’s available everywhere. You want to buy books. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathy Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Kristen (23:15)
You

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Mar 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame | 0 comments

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering.

Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she discovered that creative, successful women often struggle the most with clutter. Together, they explore why shame is so deeply connected to our messy spaces and how understanding that “Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house” can be the key to making real progress.

If you’ve ever felt that your cluttered home somehow makes you a spiritual failure, this episode offers liberating insights. Dana debunks common misconceptions about biblical references to order and cleanliness, including a fresh perspective on the Proverbs 31 woman.

Listeners will discover:

Why traditional organizing advice often fails creative minds

How removing shame is the first step to making actual progress

Dana’s practical decluttering question: “If I needed this item, where would I look for it first?”

The freedom that comes from embracing the reality of your space

Whether you’re just starting your decluttering journey or have been struggling for years, this conversation offers both spiritual encouragement and practical strategies to help you create a functional home without shame.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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As mentioned by Kathi:

Dana K. White’s website – https://danakwhite.com/

Dana’s new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House – https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/jesus/

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Dana K White

Dana K. White is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, speaker, and creator of the No Mess Decluttering Process. Through her podcast, YouTube channel, and three published books, she shares practical decluttering and organizing strategies that work for real people who don’t naturally love to clean. As the founder of DeclutteringCoaches.com, she now trains and certifies others in her unique approach to home management.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:19.694)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. Okay, you guys, you refer to her in so many emails to me, you quote her, you, I think you want me to be her, but you know what? I’ve got the next best thing. She is here on the podcast.

And this is our first time meeting, so I’m so glad we’re doing it with all of my friends listening. You guys, it is Dana K. White. Dana, welcome to Clutterfree Academy.

Dana K White (00:56.509)

Thank you so much for having me on. I have been hearing for years, you’ve got to meet Kathi. Like you just have to and I’m like, okay. So I’m excited that we’re getting to meet finally.

Kathi Lipp (01:01.518)

Well, you know, I have also heard that, but let me just tell you where I’ve encountered you the most when I’m going to Amazon to see how my books are doing and who’s outselling me. And it’s always you. Not that I’m bitter or anything, but you know what? Here’s what I love. The message about decluttering and about Jesus is getting out there. So if it’s you, I will cheer you on because now I’ve discovered you’re really nice. So, okay. Instead of

Dana K White (01:12.999)

Okay.

Dana K White (01:19.559)

Sorry.

Dana K White (01:28.475)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dana K White (01:35.365)

And I’m funny.

Kathi Lipp (01:36.43)

And you’re funny, I love a funny queen. I love this so much. Okay, we have so much to get into and I know we’re gonna get sidetracked. So I’m just gonna dive in. And by the way guys, if you’re one of the three people who doesn’t know who Dana K. White is, she’s written several books, three quarters of a million books sold. So like she knows what she is talking about.

Dana K White (01:41.715)

you

Kathi Lipp (02:00.18)

Also a YouTube star. for my, you know, millennials and, you know, Z listeners, you guys have seen her. I’m sure you have. But I, here’s what I want to discuss because when I first started in this decluttering game, I did not understand that I would be talking. I thought I was going to be talking about organizational systems. I thought I was going to be talking. What I end up talking about all the time.

is shame. And I, why do shame and clutter go hand in hand? Why are these two things like kissin’ cousins? Because I don’t know that a lot of people who are struggling with clutter think it’s shame based, but I would say when I’m talking to people, at least 75 % of the time it is.

Dana K White (02:54.695)

Well, think, so coming at it, not necessarily from the clutter being the result of the shame, but the shame being result of the clutter. what, okay, so my story is that I started this anonymous blog. I thought it was gonna be temporary. It was just gonna be practice because I was desperate to write, but my house had always been a disaster, like always, always, always. Every space I touched turned into a disaster, right? And so I,

Kathi Lipp (02:59.694)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (03:12.876)

Yeah.

Dana K White (03:20.723)

was writing about this, thinking it was a way to stay focused on my home and be able to figure that out so I could then start writing about other things that I actually had any desire whatsoever to write about, which was not this. And I was anonymous in the beginning because I didn’t tell anybody what I was doing. I didn’t even tell my husband. I was so, this was my shameful secret. Like my clutter was my shameful secret. And a lot of…

Kathi Lipp (03:30.538)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (03:44.556)

Yeah.

Dana K White (03:50.279)

my actual change came from the fact that people started reading what I was doing. And while I assumed that they were gonna say, well, get off the internet, you’re a horrible person, right? Instead, what they said was, these are my thoughts, these are my struggles, these are the same things that go through my head, the same things that I do. And so knowing I was not alone was actually the most powerful thing in being able to change.

Kathi Lipp (04:02.368)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (04:06.413)

Yeah.

Dana K White (04:17.809)

Because what I saw, like, so this was back in 2009, remember the blogging days, right? And when people would leave a comment, you would click on their name on Blogger and you could see a little profile about them, right? And I started to see that these were highly creative women, like artists and poets and lots of theater arts teachers. I was a theater arts teacher, right? Like before I had kids. so like I…

Kathi Lipp (04:23.704)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (04:38.23)

Yes.

Dana K White (04:47.867)

there was this common thread. They were also very highly successful women, right? And so I saw that, okay, so this creative side of me that I’ve always been like, thank you God for making me creative, right? Was directly related to my struggles with clutter. And when I saw that, it helped me accept that this struggle is part of how my brain works. And I like my brain, it’s a little weird, you know? I like it.

Kathi Lipp (05:01.44)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (05:13.112)

Yes. Right? Yes.

Dana K White (05:18.373)

except for this issue. And when I realized that, it gave me permission to say, okay, I don’t have to feel like a failure because traditional organizing advice doesn’t work for me, right? Because the people writing that have very different brains than mine, right? And so, exactly. So I think the shame issue often comes down to the disconnect between I am a successful, intelligent woman.

Kathi Lipp (05:28.876)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (05:34.125)

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (05:47.224)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (05:48.765)

But if you look at my house, you’re gonna assume that I’m an idiot. I know that sounds awful and harsh, right? But that’s the way I felt like. Like you look at my house and you think, you would never assume that I was a successful, intelligent woman, right? And so this disconnect of like, but I can do things. I can figure things out. I am able to go out there and lead and do things. And people who knew me in the workplace,

Kathi Lipp (05:57.835)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:08.919)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:12.802)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dana K White (06:18.969)

never thought I was a horrible disorganized mess at home. people would tell me they were very surprised to find that out about me. And so it becomes this shameful secret that you wanna hide. And then also makes you feel bad about yourself. Because you’re like, this seems to be easy for everybody else in the world. This doesn’t make sense with who I am. Right, so anyway, I think that’s where a lot of that shame comes from is that disconnect.

Kathi Lipp (06:25.474)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (06:29.6)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (06:41.324)

Yes.

Dana K White (06:43.031)

of I can do things, but I for some reason cannot do this thing. Like of all things, this is the thing I can’t do. What? Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (06:50.122)

Right, and let me just affirm so much of what you’re saying. Cluttery people are the most creative people I have encountered. They are intelligent and they are incredibly kind. Like they would give you anything that they could find in their house if they could find it. And so, yeah, so.

Dana K White (07:06.247)

Yes.

Dana K White (07:13.23)

And they brought it into their house thinking of what your needs might be in the future. Right? Like, and I think that’s where so much of the disconnect comes in. You know, I mean, we’re gonna, you my new book is spiritually focused. My other books have no spiritual content in them, right? But this, the idea that,

Kathi Lipp (07:18.208)

It’s so true. It is so true.

Kathi Lipp (07:28.632)

Right.

Dana K White (07:35.741)

people are collecting that they have clutter because they’ve been collecting things out of greed or selfishness is just not true. And so when somebody’s coming at it from that angle of like, okay, well, you need to be less greedy and less selfish. Well, like you said, you know, in your experience working with people who struggle with clutter, they are not greedy or selfish. That is not the reason that this clutter is here. And so then if people are coming at it trying to be helpful from that angle, then I already feel misunderstood.

Kathi Lipp (07:41.868)

No, it’s not.

Kathi Lipp (07:53.75)

Mm-hmm. No, no.

Dana K White (08:05.243)

I already feel like you don’t get it, so therefore you’re not gonna be able to help me. And so then that’s where it becomes even more shameful when you feel like, okay, I think I’m doomed to this.

Kathi Lipp (08:05.303)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:16.566)

Yes, absolutely. There’s no way out. I’m going to be like this for the rest of my life because I’ve tried everything and it doesn’t work. And you know, when you I love what you were saying there because oftentimes I would bring things into my house and or I would ignore messes in my house because I was out there in the world doing so much and then my house would get the last bit of attention because I was

Dana K White (08:25.553)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (08:46.87)

I was giving everything away out in the world. And I felt like I had to do that because of this shame. so it’s this, it’s this piling on top of each other, on top of each other. And it’s heartbreaking for so many people. And so, okay, I, here’s what I want to do. I want to take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to understand what, what does Jesus think about this? What does God think about this? Because

You know, I think about verses about put all things in order and things, you know, God is a God of order. We see that everywhere. But, and then when we try to reconcile that with who we are, man, the shame can just, it can even go deeper. So we’re gonna take a quick break, listen to a couple of commercials, pay a couple of bills, and then we’re gonna come back and Dana is going to lay it all out for us, friends. Okay, we’ll be right back.

Okay, I am back with Dana K. White. And first of all, I love the title of your new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House. But Dana, my people are gonna say, yes, He does. Because God is a God of order. know, God wants us to be hospitable and bring people into our spaces. So like, Dana, you are telling us untruths.

Dana K White (10:07.859)

Okay, so yeah, but I mean it. Like I absolutely mean that, that Jesus doesn’t. No, I’m glad you brought up, because it is a reaction, right? Like it’s not what I thought, but I’m like, here’s what I, the title is not, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House So Don’t Bother. Like that’s not at all the title, right? The title is meant.

Kathi Lipp (10:11.51)

Do you love that I called you a liar right here on the podcast?

It is, right?

Kathi Lipp (10:32.514)

Yeah.

Dana K White (10:35.275)

And I mean what I say because nothing I do gets me closer to God, right? Like I do not earn his love. He is looking at my heart. And when He’s looking at my heart, especially because He created my brain on purpose, it’s not defective, it was not a mistake.

that He made me in a way that physical stuff tends to get out of control more easily for me than for someone else, right? That’s not a mistake. So when He’s looking at me, He’s like, I know that, right? I know this is a struggle. It doesn’t mean that I don’t work on it, but it doesn’t mean that it has any effect whatsoever on my relationship with Jesus, right? Because when God looks at me, if I am a follower of Jesus, He’s seeing Jesus’ righteousness on me. And if I think that,

Kathi Lipp (11:23.862)

Right.

Dana K White (11:32.775)

that He’s seeing me and what I, you know, have accomplished and what I have done and that that’s getting me toward Him, then I don’t actually get what He’s looking for, right? And so then that’s actually what I wouldn’t say frustrates, but you know what I mean? Like that’s the thing that keeps me from God, is not understanding what it is that He’s actually asking of me. So it’s very important to understand that because so many times over the years, right?

Kathi Lipp (11:42.669)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (11:49.078)

Right.

Dana K White (12:01.768)

is people can say things like, but God is a God of order. But the Proverbs 31 woman, you know, she wasn’t lazy. And you’re like, okay, but

Kathi Lipp (12:08.024)

Yeah, gosh, yeah.

Dana K White (12:15.299)

let’s have the full conversation there. Let’s have the full conversation about Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. It doesn’t mean that you don’t worry about it, but you don’t worry about it as a way to please God, right? And so when we take that shame away, because for me, I assumed when I started this whole deslobification process, I was like, I thought that at some point, God was going to show me the verse I had missed, or the spiritual concept that I had not understood, and I was going to go,

Kathi Lipp (12:17.196)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (12:28.557)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (12:35.192)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (12:44.667)

Okay, now it’s all easy, right? Like I thought I was missing something spiritually. And instead He said, Dana, I have never been upset about your messy house. I want you to give Me your heart, like all of you to use as I see fit, right? And so give Me everything, but not as a way to earn Jesus’ love, right? And so it’s this thing of removing that shame.

Kathi Lipp (12:47.83)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (12:58.35)

Hmm.

Dana K White (13:13.115)

And removing the shame is actually the thing that allows me to move forward. Like we were talking about, like shame is such an issue. It’s so debilitating. Shame is not motivating at all. It is not. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (13:19.266)

Yes, it is not. And shame is not going to change you in the positive and it’s not gonna change anybody you love. Because I’m sure so many of us who are listening here were shamed about our messy rooms, were shamed about our backpacks in school. I remember, I haven’t remembered this in 40 years, but I remember a teacher bringing me to the front of class.

Dana K White (13:30.653)

Yes.

Dana K White (13:36.403)

Yep.

Kathi Lipp (13:48.16)

and making me unpack my backpack. Like I have repressed that, right? Right?

Dana K White (13:52.275)

makes me wanna cry because I, well, and here’s the thing. I understand that they think they’re being helpful, right? Like I understand that. And yet, and yet it backfires because you, I’m assuming, felt very misunderstood, right? Because if the teacher thought that was gonna help you, then they didn’t understand the problem. And it’s not like you loved having a messy backpack, right? I did not like any of my messy spaces.

Kathi Lipp (14:00.3)

Right. And yet.

Kathi Lipp (14:12.119)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (14:16.766)

Right. No, no.

Dana K White (14:22.001)

but for you to come in and say, you know, this is, that God is a God of order. Well, that doesn’t actually give me anything to go on. Like it doesn’t help at all. Besides the fact, I’m just gonna say real quick that the God is a God of order.

Kathi Lipp (14:30.423)

Right.

Dana K White (14:37.209)

The actual context there of when that phrase is said in the Bible is talking about how to run a meeting at church. Right? And I just want to be clear, like, that’s actually my superpower. I am really good at running meetings. Like, like you could ask me to run a meeting of world leaders. And while I might be a little intimidated, I would absolutely be like, well, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (14:54.03)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (15:03.619)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (15:05.843)

because guess what I’m really good at? I’m good at that. Well, here’s the problem. If I do understand that context and I go, I am really good at this thing and God is a God of order. this is my way to please God, right? I’m off track. I’m off track. And so either way that you go and you hear a lot of, I’ve heard the, you know, the message of this book from the other perspective of like, okay, I couldn’t stop cleaning.

Kathi Lipp (15:20.076)

Right? Yeah.

Dana K White (15:34.125)

And God finally showed me that I never cared about your messy house and so it’s okay to relax and let people see imperfection. And I’m like, that’s truth. However, that is not truth that is helpful for me. Because I would hear that story and I would think, well, I would sure love to have that problem. And so what about for me as the person who felt defective and, you know,…

Kathi Lipp (15:34.125)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (15:43.116)

Yeah. Yes.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (15:52.832)

Yes. Yes.

Dana K White (16:00.879)

had so much shame, like how does this apply to me? And that’s what this book is. It’s like, how do we apply that to this? As I was never looking at that, whether it’s you’re obsessed with a perfection or you’re, you know, feel completely overwhelmed and not able to do it. taking away that shame is the thing that allows us to move forward. I feel like I’ve been rambling. I’m sorry. You can stop me.

Kathi Lipp (16:21.12)

No, you are not rambling. You are spitting truth, my friend. You are spitting truth. And you know, I have a lot of people on this podcast and we can’t always talk this deeply about the concepts because either they have not experienced it like you and I have, or they’re still figuring it. But when we start to see, it’s two sides of the same problem.

when somebody has a house that is so clean that you don’t want to sit down because I just yesterday saw on TikTok a woman who said, yeah, we don’t sit on our couch with outside clothes. And I’m like, what’s outside clothes? And literally it was her husband’s jeans. He looked like he might be an engineer or something like that. So that’s one side of the issue. And then this other where,

Dana K White (17:09.489)

hilarious yeah

Kathi Lipp (17:17.504)

I think what people think is that people who struggle with clutter struggle with this mess are are lazy. And here’s the thing I don’t I have not met anybody with this problem who is lazy. I have met people who struggle they don’t know what the next step is. Maybe they’re on the spectrum with ADHD or they’re depressed like I’ve met a lot of people

who have these auxiliary situations, I’ve yet to meet the lazy person.

Dana K White (17:52.947)

Yeah, and that’s the thing is, when you Google, is cleanliness next to godliness in the Bible, right? There’s all these different blurbs and even if you don’t go and actually read any of them, the vast majority will say no, but the concept is true and then they will mention the Proverbs 31 woman. Well, guess what is not in Proverbs 31? What is never mentioned? Cleanliness, the state of her home,

Kathi Lipp (18:00.994)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (18:13.486)

Mmm.

Dana K White (18:22.355)

clutter, nothing. Nothing is even mentioned. So I go through the whole Proverbs 31 verse by verse and I’m like, it’s not here, but…

Kathi Lipp (18:28.066)

Yeah. Yes.

Dana, are you telling me that the Proverbs 31 girl is our girl? Like, could she be our girl?

Dana K White (18:38.223)

I’m gonna tell you something. She reminds me of the people who have clutter, right? Like, because she is so focused on other people, she is so industrious, she works hard all the time. I’m like, you know, it’s like when people talk about, well, the Mary and Martha thing and blah, blah. And I’m like, guess who I relate more to? The busy one.

Kathi Lipp (18:44.524)

Yes! Yes!

Kathi Lipp (18:58.341)

mm-hmm. Right, absolutely.

Dana K White (19:01.841)

Right, like I relate more to her. The people I know who don’t have clutter issues tend to be able to relax in those situations a lot more than me. And so I’m like, it’s this thing where there’s assumptions that if your house is messy, it’s because you’re lazy. And then knowing that that’s not true and yet not being able to convince anyone that that’s not true because the state of your home makes everybody, so you know, it’s like this bad thing of like, we have to get in there and we have to speak the truth about this. And like, I really do like.

Kathi Lipp (19:08.983)

Yes!

Dana K White (19:29.849)

She reminds me of the women who I know and possibly myself even in certain situations, but like the women I know who are the go-to woman that everybody depends on, that everybody looks to to be able to organize any event and do anything. And yet you don’t know what her house actually looks like. And so I’m not saying she was messy. I’m just saying that’s not helpful because it’s not actually in there. Like don’t use her as this.

Kathi Lipp (19:32.174)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:45.792)

Yes.

Dana K White (19:57.085)

thing to aspire to, because anyway, again, shame is not motivating. It’s not helpful.

Kathi Lipp (20:01.228)

I love what you’re saying. And what you’re saying is all these things that we’ve heard before, what is actually helpful in that? That’s the question. And it’s also the question with my clutter oftentimes, what’s actually helpful in here? But with this truth, what is actually helpful? So tell me, what is actually helpful?

Dana K White (20:09.607)

Yes. Yes.

Dana K White (20:14.973)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:26.188)

when it comes to motivating me to get decluttered, motivating my listener to get decluttered.

Dana K White (20:26.556)

Yeah.

Dana K White (20:32.125)

So once the shame is gone, then we can actually do stuff, right? Like we can actually do the things. Although I’m a big fan of going ahead and doing the thing and that’s actually what helps the shame be gone, right? Is that. So like I have my no mess decluttering process and we start with trash, right? And that’s one of those things that sometimes, I mean, you’re an author so you know reviews can be wonderful and awful, right? I choose to view bad reviews as good as long as they actually like give some real information. Like if they say,

Kathi Lipp (20:34.798)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (20:42.455)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:54.286)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (21:01.217)

Guess.

Dana K White (21:01.861)

when people say stuff like, can’t believe people need to be told to start with trash, who has trash? And I’m like, well, guess what? Now the person who read that review knows that this book is actually what they need, right? So yeah, and so like starting with the trash, like this is the stuff that somebody who would never even think to just randomly set down, you know, a string cheese wrapper as opposed to putting it in the trash, like I have no idea that that thing left my hand, right?

Kathi Lipp (21:12.192)

It’s so true.

Kathi Lipp (21:31.36)

Right, absolutely.

Dana K White (21:31.439)

And so we start with the trash, we go through the process. How do we start? We start with the very, very easiest decision-free stuff, right? So like trash is actual trash. It’s not, I’m not gonna convince you that it’s trash. We’re not gonna call your mom and say, would you say this is trash? I’m not gonna analyze what my mom would say if she was here. It’s all just like the actual trash. And if I’m helping you and I’m like, how do they not see that’s trash?

Kathi Lipp (21:51.758)

Right.

Dana K White (22:01.437)

I’m not gonna say anything, because we will get to it over the course of the process, right? But it’s that how do we actually help? We give real actual strategies where I don’t consider, and I don’t know how you view this, but like for me, because I was doing figuring this out in my own home and what was helpful for me and what wasn’t, it is actually not helpful for me as a highly creative person to ask myself if I’ll ever use something. Like, because I can come up with a reason.

Kathi Lipp (22:05.442)

Right?

Kathi Lipp (22:26.029)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (22:30.574)

goodness, I was just consulting with somebody today and she’s like, I don’t know why I keep this and I said, because your brain can come up with 700 possible uses, none of which you probably will ever do. But you could. Yeah.

Dana K White (22:38.429)

Yes, right, right.

Dana K White (22:43.899)

And if I focus on what, if I could ever use it, then all my mental energy is going toward all these possibilities. And that’s not actually helpful. Like nothing is happening here in this situation. So instead I start with trash and then I ask myself my real defining decluttering question is if I needed this item, where would I look for it first? Right? So there’s no, there’s no like, is it a good thing? That’s all good. Cause why would I have it in my house if it wasn’t right? So, you know, but if I needed this item, where would I look for it first?

Kathi Lipp (22:52.438)

Right. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (23:01.888)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:07.2)

Yeah, exactly.

Dana K White (23:14.131)

And that’s not where would it be? Like those are two different questions. Because if I already know where it would be, it left in step two, which is dealing with the stuff that I already know what to do with it, right? So by the time I’m asking myself the question, where would I look for this earring? Okay, cause I took them out cause they were banging on my headphone things. Yeah. But if I was asking myself, you know, where would I look first for these earrings? If I needed these earrings.

Kathi Lipp (23:24.098)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (23:29.836)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you.

Dana K White (23:43.119)

It is literally an answer, an instinctual answer. I may not trust my instincts yet, but that’s how I’m gonna learn to trust them, right? If I needed my earrings, where would I look for them first? And it’s wherever I would picture myself going at the beginning of what I assume is gonna be a three hour search for my earrings, right? And so where’s the first, what’s the drawer that I would open? What’s the cabinet I would walk to?

Kathi Lipp (23:45.56)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (23:54.509)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (24:04.065)

Mmm, where’s the first step?

Yeah, right.

Dana K White (24:11.879)

where is the first place where I look? And then I take them there right now. I don’t set them aside to do later or put it in a keep box that I’ll go put everything, because then I would have to go back through these questions again, right? So that’s, even though it feels less efficient to take it there now, that’s actually the transformational step, right? So I’m gonna take it there now and I’m gonna face the reality of that space. Is there any room for these?

Kathi Lipp (24:16.919)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:23.563)

Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:33.848)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (24:38.294)

It’s a great question. Yeah.

Dana K White (24:38.331)

And if there’s not, if there’s not any room for them, then what am I willing to get rid of in order to make the room for these? And if I’m not willing to get rid of anything, then these actually aren’t as important to me and I can let them go, right? But I’m gonna face that reality when I get to that space because I took it there now and I acted on that and I’m gonna base everything in actual facts outside of the things I could come up with.

Kathi Lipp (24:46.573)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (25:03.757)

Yes.

Dana K White (25:06.639)

Because the creativity, yes, it’s my superpower, it’s also my downfall, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (25:10.99)

It’s your kryptonite. It’s your superpower and your kryptonite and we don’t want to squash the creativity in these beautiful human beings who God created that way, but we also want you to be able to function in your house and

Dana K White (25:28.261)

Exactly. Well, and I hear from people all the time, because I say all the time, I’m like, you can keep anything, but you can’t keep everything. Right. And so, and people are like, okay, well, cause I thought you were going to come in here and you were going to tell me this was dumb and that was bad and this should go and you shouldn’t have this. And so I’m raring to go. Like I’ve got all these reasons, you know, why I should keep all this stuff. And when you tell me, you can keep anything. You just can’t keep everything. Then I’m like,

Kathi Lipp (25:33.654)

Mm-hmm. It’s so true.

Kathi Lipp (25:46.03)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:51.094)

Right? Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (25:58.885)

Okay, it’s just a shift in your brain that it makes a huge, huge difference.

Kathi Lipp (25:59.981)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (26:04.193)

The way I say it is there’s no morality in keeping or giving that thing away. These things are morally neutral, but what’s gonna serve your life? What’s going to bring you happiness? What’s gonna make you function better? Those are the things that we wanna keep in your house, but we also have to be able to find those things when we need them. And yeah.

Dana K White (26:11.027)

Mm-hmm.

Dana K White (26:26.919)

Right, which is what happens when you put it in the first place where you would look for it. Then you find it, right? Yeah, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (26:30.922)

It’s, which is brilliant. Yes. I love that so much. How has understanding this changed your life? mean, I know you have this big business, you’re on YouTube, you write the book, but like your life and your home, what is the biggest difference for you now that shame is not the go-to feeling with everything going on in your

Dana K White (26:57.651)

Yeah, so the shame went away as I was working on my house, but as I was working my house, I was realizing that Jesus didn’t care about my messy house, right? Like, there, you know, I always say that’s, I’ve kind of earned the right to write a book called Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House because I’ve written three books about how to keep, get your house under control, you know? So it’s like, I’m not, no, only people who don’t understand and who don’t pay attention can accuse me of saying that it doesn’t matter.

Kathi Lipp (27:09.548)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (27:14.573)

Guess.

Kathi Lipp (27:19.883)

Right?

Dana K White (27:27.217)

Right? I know it matters and I know it matters to the person who’s struggling. Right? What was the question? I don’t know. just… Welcome to my brain.

Kathi Lipp (27:27.714)

Right.

Absolutely. What, Dana, we are so, no wonder our friends keep saying you guys need to hang out together because we are exactly the same person in different fonts. What in your life, now that the shame is not the first thought, like what, what can either you see or the people who live with you see as the biggest difference?

Dana K White (27:41.938)

Right.

Dana K White (27:48.307)

Okay, yeah.

Dana K White (27:58.321)

We can function. So the stuff is not all gone, but it’s, I’ve embraced the reality of my space, right? Like that’s my big thing is like, just embrace the reality of your space. And if I try to keep more stuff than I have space for it, then there’s no hope of my house being under control, right? So the fact that our lives are not inhibited by the state of my home.

Kathi Lipp (27:59.778)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:03.959)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (28:07.65)

Nya.

Kathi Lipp (28:11.682)

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (28:15.757)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:20.59)

Hmm

Yes.

Dana K White (28:23.481)

That is the thing, like, cause you know, you said I write books, I do YouTube. That’s the kind of stuff I like doing. I thought when I started all this, that my goal was to have like a, of course, Pinterest didn’t exist, but you know, like a magazine picture home. Like I just assumed that’s what I want. I love those images. And yet in reality, what I really wanted to do was not be held back by my house. I wanted to be able to be the person who can

Kathi Lipp (28:28.397)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:36.428)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (28:48.045)

Yeah.

Dana K White (28:52.345)

volunteer at the actual last moment to host something in my home because somebody else’s power went out and there was a plan, you know, for the prom girls to get ready there. And I’m like, you can do it at my house. You know, like, that is something I never could do before, but it was the person I wanted to be. I wanted to be that kind of mom who was like, sure, yes, bring them bring everybody over here. And yet my house was in a state where I couldn’t do that. And to have people over was a two week ordeal.

Kathi Lipp (29:00.866)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (29:04.685)

Right?

Dana K White (29:22.175)

where I would shove everything into the room, the door would lock, and then I would actually clean because I couldn’t have, you know, I wasn’t able to clean with all the clutter everywhere. So yeah, just, lets me be who I wanna be.

Kathi Lipp (29:31.478)

Yeah. You know, and it’s so interesting because yeah, people push back on, you know, my ideas about decluttering all the time. But 20 years ago, I could not have been that person. And last week we had some clients show up and they said, we were so dumb. We booked our hotel room an hour and a half in the opposite direction. Like, well, just spend the night. And they’re like, what? I’m like, yeah, just spend the night. We’re fine. And like,

It didn’t until later that night. I didn’t realize the transformation and the girls coming over and getting ready for prom like to other people That would just be a Tuesday, but for us it says our whole lives have changed and It’s possible. That’s what I want people to hear One Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. I love the the title of your book and guys we’ll have a link to that

Dana K White (30:17.405)

Exactly, Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (30:30.402)

where you can get it at, you know, Amazon or wherever you love to buy books. But also the thing I want you to hear from what Dana has said, what I am saying is this shame free life is possible. You can be the person that invites people into your home. You can be the person who has a last minute overnight guest. You can be the person who says I can volunteer for that.

because I’m not abandoning my home, my home functions, and that makes the rest of my life possible. And it’s how Jesus wants us to live. It’s not about the state of your home, it’s about how you can function in the world with the home you have. And Dana, I love this so much. I traditionally do not read other decluttering books because I…

Dana K White (31:24.359)

Me neither.

Kathi Lipp (31:25.366)

I don’t want to be accused of stealing Dana Kay or Fly Lady or anything like that. But this one I’m going to read because I came in with the questions about how are you going to support this thesis? And I love what you said here because there’s such freedom and it’s such practical freedom too. I love that so much. Dana, thank you so much for being here today.

Dana K White (31:27.591)

I am the exact same way, yes, yep.

Okay, thank you.

Dana K White (31:49.021)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on and I’m just so honored and excited that we finally got to meet.

Kathi Lipp (31:54.342)

I love it. It’s the beginning of a beautiful clutter free relationship. And I love that so much with a little bit of sass, a little bit of mess, because you know what? That’s okay. That’s how I function best. And I know that’s how you function best too. We’re never going to be that Pinterest Martha Stewart. And you know what? God didn’t want us to be that way. And that’s why we are who we are. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life.

Dana K White (31:58.674)

Ha ha!

Dana K White (32:06.428)

Yeah.

Dana K White (32:14.29)

No.

Kathi Lipp (32:24.14)

You’ve always wanted to live.

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Mar 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal | 0 comments

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Listen Now

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten practice for your family.

For many, Lent represents a time to simplify, focus on what matters most, and create space for spiritual growth. Kathi and Tonya explain how incorporating a weekly soup tradition can help achieve these goals while also solving the “what’s for dinner?” dilemma.

Listeners will discover:

Why soup is the perfect one-pot meal for busy families during Lent

How making soup can help reduce food waste and grocery bills

The spiritual connection between slowing down for soup and creating space for what matters

Six simple, delicious soup recipes that can be enjoyed throughout the Lenten season

Whether you’re new to Lenten traditions or looking to refresh your practice, this episode offers practical ideas to help you slow down, simplify, and savor both your meals and your time together as a family.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

As mentioned by Kathi: Broccoli Cheddar Soup

Ingredients:

4 tablespoons butter, divided

1/2 medium onion, chopped

3 cloves garlic, minced (from recipe 1)

1/4 cup flour

2 cups low sodium chicken stock

1 tsp kosher salt

1/2 tsp black pepper

1/4 tsp ground nutmeg, optional

3 cups broccoli florets, chopped into bite size pieces

1 large carrot, grated or julienned

1 stalk celery, thinly sliced

2 cups half & half or milk

2 1/2 cups grated sharp cheddar cheese

Instructions

Melt 1 tablespoon of butter in a large Dutch oven or pot over medium-high heat. Add the onion and cook for 3-4 minutes or until softened and lightly golden. Add the garlic and sauté for another minute.

Add the remaining 3 tablespoons of butter to the pot. Once melted, sprinkle the flour over the mixture and whisk for 1-2 minutes or until the flour begins to turn golden in color.

Gradually whisk in the half & half or milk, then pour in the chicken stock. Continue to whisk and cook, ensuring the mixture is well-blended.

Add the broccoli, carrots, and celery. Bring the mixture to a boil, then reduce the heat to medium-low and simmer for 20-25 minutes, or until the vegetables are tender.

Stir in the grated cheddar cheese, salt, pepper, and optional nutmeg. Continue to stir over low heat until the cheese has melted and the soup is well-mixed. Taste and adjust seasoning if needed before serving.

Soup Recipes from Sabbath Soup

1. Chili Recipe

Ingredients:

3/4 lb. ground beef
1 cup chopped onions
1 clove garlic, minced
1 (16 oz.) can stewed tomatoes
1 (16 oz.) can kidney beans, drained
1 (16 oz.) can tomato sauce
3 tsp. chili powder
1/2 tsp. basil
1 (6 oz.) can tomato paste
2 cups chicken broth

Instructions:

In a large saucepan, cook ground beef, onions, and garlic until the onions are translucent and the meat is brown. Drain.
Stir in un-drained tomatoes, drained kidney beans, tomato sauce, chili powder, basil, chicken broth and pepper.
Bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer, covered, for 30 minutes.

2. Cream of Mushroom Soup

Ingredients:

2 tablespoons butter
1/2 pound sliced fresh mushrooms (cremini recommended)
1/4 cup chopped onion
6 tablespoons all-purpose flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/8 teaspoon pepper
1-2 teaspoons Worcestershire sauce (to taste)
2 cans (14-1/2 ounces each) chicken broth
1 cup half-and-half cream

Directions:

In a large saucepan, heat butter over medium heat. Add mushrooms and onion; cook and stir until tender.
Stir in flour, salt, and pepper until blended; gradually whisk in broth. Bring to a boil, stirring constantly; cook and stir for 2 minutes or until thickened.
Reduce heat; stir in cream and Worcestershire sauce. Simmer, uncovered, for 15 minutes, stirring occasionally.
Taste and adjust seasoning with additional salt, pepper, or more Worcestershire sauce to taste.

3. Five Spoon Interpretive Vegetable Soup

This is a flexible recipe for using up vegetables in your crisper.

Non-negotiable ingredients:

Stock (chicken, vegetable, or beef), approximately 4-6 cups
Oil (olive oil and butter preferred)
Salt and pepper

Cooking process:

Cut up the aromatics — onions, garlic, and fresh herbs. If you have celery, add it at this point. Start sautéing in oil or butter until they get some color.
Add heartier vegetables first — carrots, potatoes, turnips, and other root vegetables. Give them a few minutes. This is also when to add canned beans if using.
Add other vegetables: squash, zucchini, tomatoes, green beans, asparagus, eggplant, and mushrooms. Let these get a little color.
Can add canned vegetables (tomatoes, corn, green beans) and leftover meat at this point. Add thin vegetables like spinach, cabbage here too.
Cover vegetables with broth.

Optional spice profiles:

Mexican: Cumin, chili powder, peppers, oregano, garlic
Italian: Basil, Italian herb blend, oregano
Indian: Tandoori spices, garam masala, curry, yogurt, coconut milk, tamarind, cardamom, cumin, coriander, cilantro, fennel, garlic, saffron

Taste and adjust as you go for the best flavor.

4. Minestrone Soup

Ingredients:

2 tablespoons olive oil
1 large onion, chopped
2 carrots, peeled and chopped
2 stalks celery, chopped
3 cloves garlic, minced
1 zucchini, chopped
1 medium potato, peeled and chopped
1 can (14.5 ounces) diced tomatoes
1 can (15 ounces) kidney beans, drained and rinsed
4 cups vegetable broth
2 teaspoons dried basil
1 teaspoon dried oregano
1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon black pepper
1/2 cup small pasta (like ditalini or orzo)
2 cups chopped fresh spinach
1/4 cup freshly grated Parmesan cheese (optional)

Instructions:

In a large pot, heat the olive oil over medium heat. Add the onion, carrots, celery, and garlic. Cook until the vegetables are tender, about 5 minutes.
Add the zucchini, potato, diced tomatoes, kidney beans, vegetable broth, basil, oregano, salt, and black pepper. Stir until everything is well combined.
Bring the soup to a boil. Once boiling, reduce the heat to low, cover the pot, and let it simmer for about 15-20 minutes, or until the vegetables are soft.
Meanwhile, in a separate pot, cook the pasta according to the package instructions. Drain once cooked.
Add the cooked pasta and chopped spinach to the soup. Stir until the spinach has wilted and everything is well combined.
Serve hot, garnished with Parmesan cheese if desired.

5. White Bean Chicken Chili

Ingredients:

2 tablespoons vegetable oil
1 yellow onion, chopped
3 cloves garlic, minced
2 (14.5 oz.) cans chicken broth
4 cans Ro*Tel mild diced tomatoes and green chilies
1/2 teaspoon dried oregano
1/2 teaspoon ground coriander seed
1/4 teaspoon ground cumin
1 pound diced cooked chicken
1 (16 oz.) can cannellini beans
2 ears fresh corn cut from the cob, or 1 can drained corn, or 1½ cups frozen corn kernels
Salt and pepper, to taste

Directions:

In a soup pot, heat vegetable oil and sauté onion over medium heat until soft, about 5 to 7 minutes. Add in the garlic and continue to sauté for 1 additional minute.
Pour chicken broth into pan. Then add the tomatoes, oregano, coriander, and cumin. Bring to a boil and simmer for 10 minutes.
Add in chicken, beans, corn, and salt and pepper to taste. Simmer on low for 10 minutes.
Serve with tortilla chips, lime, and avocado slices.

6. Greek Lemon Soup

Ingredients:

4 cups chicken broth
1/2 cup uncooked orzo or rice
Salt and pepper to taste
3 eggs
Juice of 2 lemons (about 1/3 to 1/2 cup, depending on taste)
1 cup shredded cooked chicken (optional)
Fresh chopped parsley or dill for garnish

Instructions:

In a large pot, bring the chicken broth to a boil.
Add the orzo or rice, reduce heat and simmer until tender. For orzo, this will be about 10 minutes, for rice about 18 minutes.
Season with salt and pepper.
While the orzo or rice is cooking, in a separate bowl, whisk together the eggs until well beaten. Continue to whisk and gradually add in the lemon juice.
Once the orzo or rice is cooked, reduce the heat to low. Take a ladle full of hot broth and slowly add it to the egg-lemon mixture, whisking continuously. This process is called tempering and prevents the eggs from scrambling when added to the hot soup.
Continue to slowly add another 2-3 ladles of broth into the egg-lemon mixture, making sure to keep whisking.
Once the egg-lemon mixture is warmed, slowly pour it back into the soup pot, stirring the soup as you pour.
Add in the shredded chicken, if using.
Stir the soup over low heat for 2-3 minutes until heated through. Do not let it come to a boil.
Taste and adjust the seasoning if needed.
Ladle the soup into bowls, garnish with fresh chopped parsley or dill, and serve immediately.

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:09)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small daily steps to help you live with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the goddess of all things clutter-free. And I mean that in a very non-religious way. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya. You know what? Because you contain multitudes. You contain multitudes.

Tonya Kubo (00:28)

Hey, Kathi. I like that I get a new title every time. It’s fun.

Kathi Lipp (00:36)

and that reflects in our titling of you. We’re gonna talk about one of my favorite things. We’re gonna talk about a couple of my favorite things. We’re gonna talk about lent and we’re gonna talk about soup. Well, you know, we’ll talk about food, but we’re also gonna talk about soup. And so as you know, soup is one of my favorite things. It’s also one of your favorite things. We are both soup fanatics. Can I just tell you, we don’t have a recipe for broccoli cheddar soup in

Tonya Kubo (00:44)

Okay?

Okay.

Mm-hmm. yes.

Kathi Lipp (01:06)

in saba soup but i made a broccoli cheddar soup last night that almost made Roger weep it was

And I do have leftovers too bad you are several hours away from me. I will post the recipe I found it online. I tweaked it just ever so slightly but I think a part part of the reason that it was so good is I bought a bag of rolls from just a supermarket, but they were the Cheesecake Factory brown bread rolls

Tonya Kubo (01:44)

All of those are so good.

Kathi Lipp (01:46)

Right? And can I tell you, can I tell you what you have to look forward to in your older age? You start to become weird about things. Roger and I have become weird about butter.

Tonya Kubo (01:53)

Sure.

I love

how you said you start to as if I’m not already weird about things like butter.

Kathi Lipp (02:06)

Yes, this is true. As you know, I have a podcast I love called Wirecutter. And this is the New York Times and they do lots of blind taste tests and things like that. And they did the butter episode. And so this is what made us buy a butter bell. So we now have a butter bell and butter bells are a part of a life. We were already buying pretty much the right kind of unsalted butter, which is the Costco. It’s very highly rated.

Tonya Kubo (02:12)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:34)

lots of fat and everything. But now we are exploring all sorts of different kinds of salted butter. So the Costco New Zealand brand of salted butter is very highly rated. So we had the broccoli soup and we were a little under the weather. That’s why I made the soup. The brown bread and the New Zealand butter. And if I never have to have another meal again, it’s OK.

Tonya Kubo (03:04)

Yeah, yeah, I would die happy with that. That’s good.

Kathi Lipp (03:04)

Yeah,

it’s really good. I will put the link to that broccoli soup recipe in the notes because I think other people would enjoy that and it goes along with our theme here. Now you grew up Catholic, but you are in rubbing shoulders distance of a lot of Lutherans and I grew up Lutheran and one thing that we did growing up

Tonya Kubo (03:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (03:33)

as a church, not necessarily my family, but as a church, is soup and lent were closely tied. Now, how was it in the Catholic tradition?

Tonya Kubo (03:34)

Mm-hmm.

Well, so in the Catholic tradition, you know, there would be it was more at home because I grew up in a really small town. So we didn’t have a lot of like parish wide Lenten events, but we had a lot of soup on Fridays. It was that, you know, and fish because my family’s Portuguese. So we’re all about the fish.

Kathi Lipp (03:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah,

yeah. So, did you understand growing up with the comp? Because I never really understood the… I just thought people liked soup, but apparently… Did you understand it growing up?

Tonya Kubo (04:14)

Eh.

yeah, we had a wonderful nun who, you know, in second grade really explained Lent to us and Catechism. So, you know, understanding the idea of simplicity and kind of removing indulgence to really focus on the sacrifice that was, you know, Christ dying at the cross.

Kathi Lipp (04:24)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so we’re going to give you the second grade understanding. So Lent, as far as what my religious tradition is, is about what are you going to give up so you can decide what you’re going to fast so you can decide what to feast. And so the fast was, you know, I remember every year they wanted us to give up chocolate. And I just thought, you know, diving into the deep end of the pool, right?

Tonya Kubo (04:43)

You

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:07)

But a lot of things that we gave up were things like meat or sometimes it was dairy products. Like none of those are my favorites to give up. I’m not gonna lie. But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve just gone to eating more simply. like we may still have some chicken, but we’re not going to, and I’m not a hard and fast lenten person. I don’t feel like.

Tonya Kubo (05:19)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (05:36)

the more I give up the closer I am to God. But it’s for me it’s been planning simpler meals. So maybe instead of you know I love my chicken and wild rice cream of chicken and wild rice soup. That’s one of my favorites. But maybe during this time I’m going to you know our soup of the week is going to be a black bean soup. Or it’s going to be something simple like an onion soup or something. Something that doesn’t have

Tonya Kubo (05:56)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:05)

a lot of cost to it, doesn’t have a lot of ingredients, just trying to keep it really simple. And one of the things that we grew up being told is when we experience some physical hunger, can also, we can satisfy that with less so we can develop our spiritual hunger. And it’s just a time of 40 days to be able to concentrate.

Tonya Kubo (06:28)

Mm.

Kathi Lipp (06:34)

on the things that we would love for our lives to be more centered on. Is there something that you are trying to focus more on in 2025?

Tonya Kubo (06:45)

Well, I think for us, it’s now that, you know, I’ve got a high schooler, I’ve got an elementary schooler, the opportunities together around the table are so limited. And so I feel like, you know, I don’t want to spend an hour and a half prepping a meal and then not being able to get together around the table. Like I’d much rather something simple.

like soup and then we actually can just focus on our time together.

Kathi Lipp (07:16)

Yeah, and one of the reasons I love soup is because I can make a decent size batch of it and it’s prep once, eat twice, three times. know, for your family, it might be less because there are more people. But for Roger and I, that soup is not just going to be dinner that night. It’s going to be lunch another night and then maybe enough to take to my mom’s house or to feed our neighbor or something like that. And so it does

Tonya Kubo (07:28)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:47)

really help us be able to focus on some of those things. It’s a one-pot meal too. That’s why I love it. Less dishes.

Tonya Kubo (07:56)

Well, it’s a one pot

meal. I’ve said this before, right? It’s a great way to minimize food waste, take all the bits and stuff from the week and throw those into a pot with some broth and it almost always tastes delicious.

Kathi Lipp (08:04)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s so true. And I love that because, yeah, like you said, when the vegetables are getting a little squishier, when the onions are starting to sprout, don’t throw those out, turn them into soup. When the celery’s getting a little flabby, don’t throw it away, turn it into soup. So.

Tonya Kubo (08:25)

you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)

Let me just give you my list of reasons. Well, we’re gonna take a quick break and we’re gonna come back and I’m gonna give you my list of reasons why I think you might want to consider a weekly soup tradition for lent. And I’m not the first to come up with this. We are not the first to talk about this. But if you can go into this season of simplicity with a focus already, and we’re also gonna share a couple of.

my favorite recipes and we’ll include those in the show notes so that you’re going to be able to Really take that soup to the next level and it’s not next level of making it fancy To really be able to focus on the things that you care about. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break come right back

Okay, friends, we are back and we are talking lent and soup. Okay, so some reasons that we already love soup. One, it’s a one pot meal. Now I will say for that broccoli, there was a lot of chopping, there was a lot of shredding. So it was half a load of dishes, but it wasn’t cumbersome. And I was able to shred enough carrots, shred enough cheese that I was able to use that for other meals. Mostly,

Tonya Kubo (09:40)

Okay.

Kathi Lipp (09:53)

The the soups that we are focusing on during Lent are going to be meatless So I have some great meatless ideas of things that you are able to do I love soup because yes, you can make it once and you can eat it several times and that’s one of my As as the main cook in the house and you’re the main cook I you Brian cooks too, but you’re the main cook. Yeah

Tonya Kubo (10:02)

Hmm.

Yes.

Yeah

Kathi Lipp (10:22)

Any meal that will do double duty and will your family eat leftovers because lots of families won’t but mine definitely will Yeah, that’s a beautiful beautiful thing you’re using like Tonya said simple available ingredients and the thing that I love most is It gives us an opportunity to have some communal meals One of the fundraisers that we did up here in Omo Ranch

Tonya Kubo (10:30)

Yeah, mine will.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:51)

was a soup night where

everybody brought different soups. And I love what they did, Tonya. they took, everybody brought their own muffin tin and they put cups in the muffin tin and did different ladles of soup so you could try everybody’s soup. And then you had recipes you could take home. I love that idea. But I love also the spiritual side of this. Soup forces us to slow down.

Tonya Kubo (11:01)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:20)

You are not going to rush a pot of soup. And in fact, if you want to have soup on Sundays, which is a lot of people’s traditions, might I suggest you cook it on Friday so that you’re just reheating on Sunday and able to do that. Soup, you cannot rush eating soup. Soup is not something you can chow down on. It’s served hot. You have to slow down. You have to blow on it.

Tonya Kubo (11:44)

Mm-hmm

Kathi Lipp (11:48)

You have to be in the moment with it. And I think to me, soup is such a symbol of abundance that we have so much leftover from our week, that celery, that onion, that chicken, that rice, that we can create a whole nother meal out of it. Did you do the Stone Soup book when you were a kid?

Tonya Kubo (11:59)

Mm-hmm.

Yep, yep, and we made stone soup in school. It’s so yummy.

Kathi Lipp (12:18)

Yes,

I remember my contribution, because we also did stone salad, was mandarin oranges. that was super fun to be able to do that. If you’re not familiar with that, might I suggest, especially if you have younger kids, to do a reading of stone soup. And you can find that story online, but you could do that for part of your Lenten practice.

Tonya Kubo (12:24)

Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:45)

I just think soup helps us focus on gratitude. Look at all the abundance I have that I can make something out of this. And one of my favorite type of TikTokers, Instagrammers, YouTubers are the people who are using food banks to be able to create their meals, right? And

Tonya Kubo (12:49)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (13:12)

What I love about these there, and I’ll put a link into one of my favorite ones, is their creativity. Like they don’t go to the food bank saying I need this, this, this, this. They receive from the food bank and they create, and I think soup is one of the meals that you could absolutely do that with. And if you’re looking to have a little bit more focus, many of you have purchased Sabbath soup.

Tonya Kubo (13:24)

Right.

Kathi Lipp (13:39)

Go in there and look at the prayers. I will add a couple into our show notes here so that you can also have those. They were written by one of mine and Tonya’s friends, Bethany Howard. She did a beautiful job with a lot of these prayers. But Tonya, I wanna talk about what are some of your favorite soup memories. We may not have the recipes here, but what are some of the soups that you grew up on for Lent? And then I’m also going to suggest

Tonya Kubo (14:02)

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (14:09)

Some soup recipes and we’re going to give you links to those in the show notes

Tonya Kubo (14:14)

Yeah, so in my family during Lent, the two main soups would be a watercress soup and watercress soup. Yeah, well, and so part of why the watercress soup is such a memory is we would have to go harvest our own watercress because at that time you couldn’t buy it at the store. You can get it at stores now.

Kathi Lipp (14:21)

A watercress soup, I have never heard of that. So tell me more about that.

my goodness.

Tonya Kubo (14:39)

But

Kathi Lipp (14:39)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (14:40)

so we would have to, I don’t know where it was, but we would go to this place. My grandfather would park on the side of the road and my mom and I would walk and it felt like forever. But like try to jump over rattlesnake holes and all of these things. Cause it grows as it sounds by water. And then so having to pick it up, we had to avoid the stinging nettle because stinging nettle also grew near it. So we would harvest the watercress and we would make watercress soup. And it’s usually a mix of

Kathi Lipp (14:57)

Yes?

Uh-oh.

Tonya Kubo (15:08)

It’s watercress, sometimes onion, potatoes, and then broth, but it’s very brothy. It’s not like a thick potato soup. And then you just sip it, or if you wanna use a spoon. My grandfather liked everything cut bigger. He liked it to be chunkier. I actually blend it all together, and I like it to be smooth.

Kathi Lipp (15:13)

Okay. Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

So you’re using the present tense. Do you still make it? okay. I’m gonna have to try some.

Tonya Kubo (15:34)

yeah, I love it. If I can see the grocery

store, I’m not going and harvesting my own too old for that. But if I can find it in the grocery store, cause it just takes three bunches and it’s a bitter green, but with

Kathi Lipp (15:39)

No, no, yeah.

So just gonna say,

tell me what watercress is because I’ve heard of watercress sandwiches, but I’ve always thought of those as like you cut the crusts off because they’re fancy.

Tonya Kubo (15:56)

Yeah, no, it’s a little bit bitter, but it’s so good with, I like mine. Like I said, potato, onion, good chicken broth is what I use. And then I like it with a lot of black pepper. So delicious. Yeah, it makes me very happy. I’m like, I’m going to go make that.

Kathi Lipp (16:10)

okay. you know what I got?

You know what I got for Christmas this year that I am absolutely loving and is upping our pepper consumption is a battery operated pepper grinder.

Tonya Kubo (16:19)

Hmm.

Ugh.

One day, one day. So it’s that soup and then kale soup. I love kale soup.

Kathi Lipp (16:28)

Yes. Yes.

Okay, kale

soup I have had before and it was delicious. okay, do you have recipes you could share with us? Okay.

Tonya Kubo (16:40)

I do. Yeah. have a great,

it’s funny as my watercress, my watercress soup recipe was like from Women’s World Magazine. Victoria Beckham, I think is who it was, but it was like, she swore by like watercress soup to get ready for award shows. And I’m just like, well, I just like to eat watercress soup. So I use that recipe still. And then I’ve got some great kale recipes.

Kathi Lipp (16:59)

interesting, okay.

Yeah, that just sounds good.

Okay, I can’t wait. Yeah, the kale soup I have is with bacon. So maybe that’s not the same kind of emphasis. Okay, so I’m going to give you guys a couple of my recipes. So I think chili is a great lenten soup because you can do it with beans, you don’t have to do it with any kind of meat or you can use up leftover meat. I’ve even done chili with ham, which sounds different.

Tonya Kubo (17:23)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:38)

But it’s really good, it’s a lot of, you’re using a lot of onions and beans and tomatoes, things that you have cans of. You can almost do the entire soup out of cans and there’s nothing fancy that anything has to go with that. I will say the cream of mushroom soup that I made last week, maybe my favorite soup I’ve had in the past six months. It was,

Tonya Kubo (17:52)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:08)

I don’t know that broccoli was pretty good too, but the cream of mushroom soup was a killer. has a lot, I like soups with a lot of onion in them. So that makes me super, super happy. And this is, this to me is the ultimate lenten soup. I call it the five spoon interpretive vegetable soup. So it’s basically cleaning out your crisper drawer and

Tonya Kubo (18:16)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (18:35)

You know, there’s kind of an order that things go into it with. You you start with the potatoes because you want to get those softer and you end up with things like kale or, you know, spinach because that’s the thing that needs the least amount of cooking. And then you keep tasting it to say, does it need more salt? Does it need more pepper? Could it use more garlic? That kind of thing. But that’s one of my favorites. There’s gosh, there are so many.

Tonya Kubo (18:44)

Mm-hmm.

Do you want to hear

Brian’s favorite from Sabbath Soup? The minestrone.

Kathi Lipp (19:06)

Yes, yes I

was just gonna talk about the minestrone. he likes it. I’m so glad Yeah, you guys it’s so simple, but it’s so good and

Tonya Kubo (19:17)

He loves minestrone

soup in general, but yeah, he was, that’s his favorite out of the whole cookbook.

Kathi Lipp (19:23)

my goodness, I’m so glad. I love that people have favorites. Okay, I’m going to give you one more because I want to make sure that we have six soups here so we can have it for the six weeks. I’m trying to think of like what would, you know, I’m trying to think of our meatless one. You could do the white bean. Now it’s chicken chili, but you don’t have to have the chicken in it. If you want to go meatless, the white bean chili.

Tonya Kubo (19:31)

Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (19:48)

Super simple super easy. You’ve got some sauteed onions in there that they’re just gonna put it over the top It’s gonna make you super happy. You could also do the lasagna soup without any Meat with it and yeah, let’s be honest sausage makes soup taste better. I’m not gonna lie, but

Tonya Kubo (20:08)

Yeah,

my traditional kale soup recipe uses sausage because it’s delicious. What about the lemon soup in there, the Greek lemon soup?

Kathi Lipp (20:12)

Yes. Okay.

Yeah, the Greek

lemon soup. now that sometimes you can have that with chicken or without, but that’s my son’s favorite soup. And so, yeah, and I, so everything I’m talking about, I suggest a lot of pepper with, I’m not gonna lie. I like a peppery oniony soup. It’s gonna make it all taste better. So we’re not saying you go without taste, but maybe just approach the meal differently. What do I already have?

Tonya Kubo (20:25)

So good

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:46)

What can I give flavor with spices instead of meat or high, you know, expensive ingredients? What can I do with things that I already have on hand to keep it simple? What does not require a lot of fussy cooking?

Tonya Kubo (20:52)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:08)

Like,

you I made that broccoli soup. It probably took me 25 minutes to put together, but none of it was fussy. It was a little bit more labor intensive because I used fresh broccoli, because I used a hunk of cheese instead of pre-grated cheese. But I also think that those two decisions gave it more flavor. So, you know, I’m willing to make those trade-offs because

Tonya Kubo (21:25)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (21:36)

the better the ingredients, the better the soup. But you don’t have to use expensive ingredients, just the best ingredients you have available. So we’re gonna put those six recipes in the show notes so that you don’t have to buy Sabbath soup in order to do all this. But guys, I’m just gonna say, what can you do to make your life simpler during Lent so that you can focus on the things that you

Tonya Kubo (21:45)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:06)

Focus on the attributes of God. Focus on the things that God wants for you during Lent to live a simpler life, to live a plainer life, but one that is not boring. It’s not flavorless, but you’re just creating space. And that’s what I want for you. And if you’re like, I don’t even know when Lent is, Kathi. I don’t even know what we’re talking about here. So it’s March 5th through April 17th.

Tonya Kubo (22:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (22:35)

So it’s coming early this year. Like it’s right around the corner, but you guys were gonna do this together. I’ll be posting some of those recipes. Tonya, thanks for talking about this with me. food is one of our favorites, not gonna lie. And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

Tonya Kubo (22:37)

Mm-hmm.

Thanks for having me. I love to talk about food anytime.

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Mar 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#658 The All or Nothing Trap: Why Good Enough is Good Enough

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Feb 25, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal | 0 comments

#658 The All or Nothing Trap: Why Good Enough is Good Enough

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, host Kathi Lipp is joined by her clutter buddy, Tonya Kubo, to tackle the all-too-common mindset of “if you can’t do it right, don’t do it at all”. Together, they explore how this thinking impacts our homes and hearts, and share practical tips on shifting to a more grace-filled, progress-focused approach. Listeners will learn about the power of small steps in creating a tidier home and how to redefine the standards of a clutter-free living space. Tune in to hear a bit about Kathi’s strategy for managing clutter and hear about the upcoming Clutter Free Bible Study which offers insights on decluttering beyond just your physical space.

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:11)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with my friend, my clutter buddy. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (00:26)

Hey Kathi!

Kathi Lipp (00:28)

So I want to talk about something that I know that has been brought up a lot recently, especially in our paid group, Clutterfree for Life. And I know it’s something I’ve struggled with. You’ve talked about struggling with it. is. It makes me angry almost. If it’s the if you can’t do something right, don’t do something at all. If you, you know, OK.

Tonya Kubo (00:47)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (00:56)

I will say, you know, we say around here every time, you can have it half donkeyed or you can do it full donkeyed. I’m trying to say it because I know we have a lot of people listening with little ears on. you know, around here, we’re full donkey people. so, but I will say, okay, can I call out a relative here just for a second?

Tonya Kubo (01:13)

Thank you.

Kathi Lipp (01:24)

So I was helping somebody at their house recently and I had spent, I don’t know, two hours working on cleaning and vacuuming and doing all the things, right? And then I get done and the sentence was, thank you, but there are still streaks on the window.

Tonya Kubo (01:36)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (01:52)

And like, okay. And my goodness, it was so defeating. I’m not going to lie. I’m still a little bitter about it. I am recovering though. And you know, it’s, it, it brings up so much from my childhood, not necessarily from my parents, but from teachers, from neighbors who were like, well, if you can’t do it right, why do it at all? And I have come to learn.

Tonya Kubo (01:57)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:22)

that that was probably the motto in every house that a cluttery person has ever grown up in. How did this manifest for you as you were a child going into adulthood? Is that something that you heard and who did you hear from?

Tonya Kubo (02:42)

No, so like never really heard those words specifically at home. I mean, I think very much if you’re a child of the eighties, that’s just what you were taught, right? Child of the seventies, child of the eighties. It’s like, you can’t do something right. Don’t do something at all. I know people who grew up in like evangelical circles. There was a lot of like, you’re supposed to do everything like you’re doing it for Jesus. Would you do it like that for Jesus? No. Or if you didn’t like that for Jesus, like really?

Kathi Lipp (02:46)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Right, yes.

Tonya Kubo (03:09)

What do you think? That’s disrespectful to Jesus. But at home, again, I grew up with a hoarder who had a very interesting perspective on how other people should live. So I remember having to clean the house, like I’d be home alone, I’m supposed to clean the whole house, cleaning the whole house, and then being told that nothing I did counted because I had one fork in the sink.

Kathi Lipp (03:12)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Mmm. Ugh.

Tonya Kubo (03:38)

Right? It’s like the one fork in the sink negated the seven hours I had spent as, you know, a 12 year old cleaning an entire house on my own. And it was just always like, and then I remember, you know, going through high school, like, why should I do anything?

Kathi Lipp (03:53)

Absolutely.

Tonya Kubo (03:55)

Like why do anything

if my best will never be good enough? And I remember my cousin who I’m very close with and we grew up, she would say, okay, here’s the deal, Tonya. We’re just gonna put the wind fork in the sink and we’re just gonna leave it there. And we will know between the two of us that when she comes home, she’s gonna complain about the fork in the sink, but see, we put it there on purpose. But it never mattered to me.

Kathi Lipp (04:14)

Mmm. That’s.

That’s so hard as a kid. It really is. So the thing I want to think about here is one, how do we not do that to people we are raising? We still want, I don’t know, you know, I’ve grown up my whole life thinking we want excellence, but excellence, you know, yeah.

Tonya Kubo (04:21)

Mm-hmm.

Well, this all goes back to like my mantra,

which I’ve said here on the podcast several times, which is if I don’t have to do it, I do not judge how it gets done. Because you know what the thing is, like, you know, my mom grew up in a household where there was one way that you folded things and that was the right way and everything else was wrong. So my mom grew up in an environment where if you didn’t fold a towel where it was perfect right angles and it had to be folded in thirds,

Kathi Lipp (04:47)

It’s so true, right?

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (05:08)

The laundry basket got dumped out and you had to refold the entire load, not just the towels that were folded incorrectly, the entire load over and over and over again until every single towel was folded perfectly. So can I blame her for how she raised me? No, I can’t.

Kathi Lipp (05:16)

Ugh.

I just gonna say,

we need to give a little bit of a break to our parents who hopefully did better than their parents and hopefully we are doing better than them and our kids will do better than us. May it be so.

Tonya Kubo (05:29)

Right.

Exactly!

Mm-hmm. And I remember,

yes, and I remember one time was when Brian and I were married and I was folding towels and my mom was over and she starts like in on me, right? About like, well, if your grandmother was alive, I’m like, well, number one, she’s not. And number two, why would you, I would tell her the same thing I’m gonna tell you. Why do you care you’re not folding my towels? They’re not going in your cabinet. It doesn’t matter. But I have carried that through, which means that Lily lives out of laundry baskets. I hate it with every fiber of my being, but you know what?

Kathi Lipp (05:48)

Right?

Right, it’s not… Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:04)

She’s not asking me to find her clothes in the morning to get ready. It doesn’t affect me. So I just move on.

Kathi Lipp (06:07)

Right.

Yes, it’s so true. And you know, I’ve had to fold my towels two different ways in my adulthood because in one cabinet they fit one way and in another cabinet they fit a different way. And now I live in a space where it doesn’t matter. So anybody can fold the towels. It’s okay. If you want to come fold towels at my house, I will give you the address that Google will send you to here. Yeah. So.

Tonya Kubo (06:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly. You are happy to full-tell your way at my house,

I’ll let you.

Kathi Lipp (06:40)

Exactly.

So here’s something that’s so interesting though. Like what I finally had to figure out is if I wanted to live in a house that met my own very mediocre standards, I couldn’t wait till I had time so I could do everything at once. Nothing in my house will all be the right right quote unquote way at the same time.

Tonya Kubo (06:54)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:10)

Because even if I have people coming over, that probably means that my bedroom is the receiving end of some nonsense. I’m just gonna make do. And so some of the things I’ve learned and some of the things that have really helped me in getting the kind of house that I want are doing things in tiny sections. So.

Tonya Kubo (07:19)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:35)

Used to wait until I could wipe the whole counter down so I’d spray the whole counter and I’d wait five minutes and then I’d wipe it all down and How often do I have time for that? Not never but now I’ll just do hey I can do the counter above the sink. So I’m gonna squirt that down I’m gonna let wait for a couple of minutes and then I’m gonna wipe all that down and Does that mean it’s how I want it to be? No, but does that mean I am closer to how I want it to be?

Tonya Kubo (07:51)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:03)

And when I come to prepare lunch later on there’s going to be a clean place for me to be able to do it huzzah You know, i’ve talked about this plenty of times on the On the podcast that my oatmeal now cooks for two minutes and 33 seconds I don’t know why the time has changed it has changed that is plenty of time for me to get at least half the dishes unloaded And that makes me so happy and I know you you’ve

Tonya Kubo (08:09)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (08:32)

mentioned that you thought it took like 15 minutes 20 minutes to unload a dishwasher and When you heard me talking about oatmeal, you’re like, I can get that done in about four or five minutes. Yeah, you actually can Unless you have a much bigger dishwasher than I do but doing things in sections and by the way People will tell me all the time. Well, then how does the next person know whether those are clean or dirty? I’m like, well I tell them or they ask

Tonya Kubo (08:43)

Yup.

Kathi Lipp (09:01)

Like we have communication in our house, so it’s okay. And you know, he knows I am a serial half dishwasher emptier and it’s okay. That’s totally fine. But I have struck upon this, this idea for me, and this might be helpful to somebody else out there that I am working on my house two by two by one at a time. And what I mean by that is the space

Tonya Kubo (09:02)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:30)

is not going to be bigger than two feet by two feet and it’s not going to be deeper than one foot. And that’s a drawer or half of a drawer or half of the kitchen table or half of the living room table or half of a shelf in the garage. And because my brain tells me I’m going to wait until I have three hours on Saturday to clean out the garage.

Tonya Kubo (09:36)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (09:59)

There is no three hours in my entire life where I want to spend it cleaning out the garage. But 30 minutes at a time, 20 minutes at a time, most of the time it’s just 15 minutes at a time, these little things. Now, there are things that you should be excellent at. If you are giving your child medication, be the best medication giver you can be. Do everything you can to make sure that that goes well.

Tonya Kubo (10:23)

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (10:27)

When it comes to wiping down your counter, I’m okay if you get a D plus at that. And I’m okay if I get a D plus at that as well. And so, you know, I feel like one of the things that we have to do is retrain our brains against this all or nothing thinking. Tonya, we’re gonna take a little break and we’re gonna talk about an opportunity that’s coming up. And this is gonna be an opportunity for you to get a D plus in decluttering.

Tonya Kubo (10:28)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (10:58)

We’re going to practice getting rid of all or nothing thinking. We’re going to take a break and we’ll be right back.

Okay, we are back and we are going to practice our eliminating our all or nothing thinking. And if you listened to the podcast last week, you heard us talking about the clutter free Bible study, what Jesus has to say about your stuff. And lots of times people want to do the Bible study, but they’re like, I don’t have the time. I, I, you know, I don’t want to show up less than for the Bible study.

Tonya Kubo (11:33)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (11:34)

I don’t know that I have time to do the homework. so Tonya you have three levels of Bible study participate, which I love by the way, because there I think I told you I did Beth Moore’s Breaking Free probably

Tonya Kubo (11:41)

I do?

yes, you and half the nation. Including me.

Kathi Lipp (11:54)

Right, like I probably did it, yeah, 10 times. I still have

the workbook because I’ve gone back and looked at it. But there were times where I was leading the study and there were times where I was just barely making it there in my pajama bottoms. And you know what the beautiful thing was? The pajama bottoms times, I had a leader who every time just said, I’m so happy to see your face.

Tonya Kubo (12:06)

you

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:23)

You know, it wasn’t I could never do bsf. I know that people love bsf and they are transformed people but the the kind of study where if you don’t do your homework basically I I think the premise is you’re not allowed to talk unless you’ve done all your homework and You know, hey that works for a lot of people. That is not my jam

Tonya Kubo (12:27)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:47)

And so this is leaning more towards my benevolent leader in Beth Moore’s Breaking Free, how Tonya runs the Bible study. So can you tell us a little bit about the Bible study and your three ways that you can participate?

Tonya Kubo (13:00)

Mm-hmm.

So the Clutter Free Bible study is It’s a series of videos. So you watch a video We have a downloadable workbook that you can print or you can fill it online. Whatever makes you happy So you watch a video you have your workbook reflection and then once a week we gather together in the Facebook group we do a Facebook live and We have our discussion so and that

for some of you, you’re a Beth Moore study person, that’s easy peasy, right? And if you’re not a Beth Moore study person, that already feels like a lot. So the small, medium, and large tiers that I have come up with is the small version is you know what, this is important, and yet I do not have time for one more thing in my life. So what I will do is I will mark the calendar for the weekly live discussions and I will show up to those.

Kathi Lipp (13:32)

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (13:56)

I’m

just gonna show up, I’m gonna listen. you know, if Tonya asks a question that I feel like I can respond to, sure, I’ll answer that question, that’s fine. But I’m just gonna show up and I’m just gonna pay attention to the conversation. Medium is I own the study, so I either have bought it fresh or I bought it years ago and I’m pulling it out. I’m watching the e-course, so I’m watching the videos, I’m looking at the workbook, fill out the questions, don’t fill out the questions, totally up to you, right? But that is medium.

I’m watching the videos, I’m at least reading through the workbook questions, and maybe even digging out my Bible app to look at what scripture says to make sure that what Kathi says the scripture says is actually what my Bible says the scripture says. That’s very important to some people, by the way. And then large is I’m gonna do all of that, right? So I’m gonna watch the videos, work on the workbook, I’m gonna participate in the live discussion, and I’m gonna pull out my…

Kathi Lipp (14:27)

Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

Okay.

Tonya Kubo (14:54)

handy-dandy copy of Clutter Free and I’m gonna follow the reading plan, right? Because the Clutter Free book is a separate purchase from the Bible study, but some people love to go through the book in conjunction with the Bible study and that is going all out. That is whole donkey, as you like to describe it. That is going whole donkey and I think every year maybe about

Kathi Lipp (15:12)

Right.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (15:21)

15 % of our study participants do the whole thing. A lot of people will start in one level and life happens as we get closer to Easter and they drop down a level. But by being able to pick whether you’re going small, medium, and large, it completely eliminates the pass or fail that most of us tend to put ourselves under.

Kathi Lipp (15:29)

Right.

Yes.

You know, I think about it, it’s kind of like exercise for me because I get down on myself so much for missing exercise. But, know, really, if I’m showing up once a week, that’s more than I was showing up. That was once a week more than I was showing up a year ago. And we’re looking for trajectory, not perfection. And yeah, we want. And so if you pick up a couple of things during this Bible study,

Tonya Kubo (16:02)

Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Kathi Lipp (16:13)

That could change your life. It absolutely could. Okay, tell us a little bit about the weekly schedule just so people know what they’re getting into.

Tonya Kubo (16:14)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

so we’re gonna kick off February 28th. And that’s where I just, I’ll explain the small medium and large plan. I will answer any questions, but I’ll kind of talk about how we approach it, how it’s very easy and gentle. And that’s also where I explain to people, because a lot of people will enter into the Bible study assuming that their house is gonna be spick and span spotless by the end of it. I explained that the Bible study is not the kind of,

decluttering process where you’re gonna see it play out in your house. It’s really about decluttering your heart and your emotions around stuff. Then we, it’s a six week discussion. So that goes from March 7th to April 11th. So you watch the videos, you do the workbook, then we come together and discuss like I mentioned. And then on Good Friday, which is April 18th, we will get together for a celebration.

in advance of Easter and then on April 20th you get to have Easter with your family but you’re all done with the Bible study before Easter begins which I think is really important because we believe in holidays and rest over here in Clutter Free Academy and even when we lead a Bible study we want to build in periods of rest.

Kathi Lipp (17:24)

Guess.

Yes.

Absolutely. We love some good rest around here because we talked about guilt in our last podcast and the guilt keeps us from resting and until we have no choice but to rest. And that’s not how I want you to earn your rest friends. It’s really not. Okay. So what are people going to learn in this Bible study?

Tonya Kubo (17:46)

Mm-hmm.

No.

Yeah, so like I said, it’s not the kind of Bible study where you’re gonna clear out spaces in your home, but it digs deep into the heart of why you keep things, what the Bible says it means to be a good steward. Because again, so often in Clutter Free Academy, we assume being a good steward means we keep everything we’ve ever bought that could potentially be useful to somebody somewhere, even if not this century. And then we also kind of,

Kathi Lipp (18:23)

Right.

Tonya Kubo (18:27)

address the perspective of building new habits. Like one exercise that is a favorite that is part of the Bible study is going to a store like Target or Walmart, whatever you have in your area, and going into the store, walking around the store, and walking out without buying a single thing. Not because it makes you holier than anybody else to do that, but to prove to yourself that walking into a store does not obligate you to buy stuff.

Kathi Lipp (18:54)

Yes, it’s so true, right?

Tonya Kubo (18:57)

And

people really believe that they can’t do it. And then they’re so proud of themselves when they can. you know, every year, people have some amazing experiences and their perspective shifts in incredible ways. And we have people who’ve been doing this every year with us since 2016. Grace Church, who’s been on the podcast before, she is the community manager over in our paid membership program, Clutter Free for Life. She joined.

Kathi Lipp (19:00)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (19:25)

Like that’s how I first met her was when she did the initial Bible study and it was about three years in. So her third or fourth round with the Bible study where her big aha was that clutter was a boundary issue and that she had come so far in her life in asserting and maintaining strong healthy boundaries with people but she had no boundaries when it came to stuff.

Kathi Lipp (19:39)

Mmm.

Interesting.

Tonya Kubo (19:53)

And so, and she wrote this beautiful thing, which I need to pull out of the archives because we have it still, about how once she was able to make that association, the clutter shows that I don’t have boundaries around stuff. She was able to draw a really strong boundary about what could come into the house. And by having a strong boundary of what it was allowed in, that automatically reduced the amount of time and energy she had to spend in decluttering.

Because if she could stop it at the front door, she never had to worry about when to get rid of it.

Kathi Lipp (20:27)

Yeah. it’s so interesting. Isn’t it interesting the folklore we have built up around our stuff and about keeping stuff. And I’m going to hurt Amazon’s feelings if I return this item. And, you know, it’s just all these things. It was very interesting to me, you know, because I’m I’m an over-politer and I don’t want to bother the person who’s waiting on us on the table and stuff like that.

Tonya Kubo (20:34)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (20:55)

And I just saw a TikTok recently where somebody said, you’ve got a normal request and you ask politely, you are doing better than 98 % of the people who come in. And it’s like, so me asking for more ranch or whatever it is, right? You’re not going to go back into the back kitchen and say, can you believe this woman? Can you?

Tonya Kubo (21:05)

Mm-hmm.

Yup.

Right.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (21:23)

And me returning things to an online retailer, that’s part of doing business. I am not offending somebody by doing that. But there is such folklore. If I go into a store, I need to buy something. Or if I use the bathroom, I need to buy something. You know what? I think I’ve paid for my bathroom trip about 1,000 times over. I think we’re good.

Tonya Kubo (21:30)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (21:50)

I’m you know, you said you’re not going to get rid of clutter, but we can see some of our members creating new habits. And so so tell me a little bit about that. What have you seen in the past in the Bible study?

Tonya Kubo (22:00)

yeah!

Yeah, so new habits. So a lot of the habits that our members have created, so like, you know, using Grace as an example is stopping clutter at the front door, whatever that looks like. So that could be, you know, at work, somebody says, hey, do you want to take this? No, I’m good. Right? Because if I don’t take it here, right, because once it goes into my car, now it’s my job to figure out what to do with it.

Kathi Lipp (22:17)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm, right.

Yeah,

it’s so true.

Tonya Kubo (22:29)

You know,

for me, it was during the first Bible study that I started going through my mail over the recycling bin rather than bringing it into the house. So the only stuff that comes into the house is stuff I actually need or have to take action on. But a lot of folks have experienced complete shifts in their habits around shopping. So for some people, they broke the habit and Lent is such a great time for breaking habits that don’t actually benefit you.

Kathi Lipp (22:37)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:57)

They broke their habit of automatically stopping at the grocery store or stopping at any store after work or shopping out of boredom. A lot of people recognize that they go, that Target, Walmart, those kind of super stores are an emotional coping mechanism. It’s where they go when they’re lonely. It’s where they go when they’re bored and they just kind of walk around the store and they tell themselves, well, it’s just free, right? Like it would cost me money to go to the movies. It would cost me money to take a friend out to lunch.

Kathi Lipp (23:24)

Hmm.

Tonya Kubo (23:26)

I go to Target and it’s free, but then they wouldn’t think about all the things that they would buy as part of their Target habit. We talk a lot about the dollar spot, right? Or the bargain bins at stores. well, it’s totally fine that I go to Target every single week. I know I’m picking on Target, but that’s just because that’s what we have where I live. But it’s fine that I go there because I only get stuff that’s at the dollar spot. Right, but five things from the dollar spot.

Kathi Lipp (23:31)

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (23:53)

only cost you five dollars, but it takes up the space of five things. And it’s five things that at some point you’re going to have to get rid of. And did you need it to begin with?

Kathi Lipp (24:03)

And Tonya, the other thing I’m gonna say is stores are not dumb. They know that your house feels chaotic and their house feels bright and organized and it makes sense. And those mannequins give you ideas of how you could use those things. Those displays give you…

Tonya Kubo (24:10)

Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (24:31)

And

if I just had this thing, then my life, I know nobody is saying this to themselves, but your amygdala is saying this to yourself. If only I had those plates, then the rest of my kitchen would come together. If only I had that mail organizer, I would never have clutter again. And so the displays, the advertisements are promising a life that feels like an escape from your house.

Tonya Kubo (24:46)

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:01)

And what we want your house to be is to be that sanctuary that doesn’t mean you feel like you have to leave it all the time to get that peace. That’s what we want for you. Okay, guys, we are going to have all the information on how to join the Bible study in the show notes, all the links. Mark your calendars for February 28th for the kickoff.

Tonya Kubo (25:09)

Exactly.

Kathi Lipp (25:27)

You can invite some friends if you know that they also struggle with some of these things. It is so much more fun to do it together. If you don’t have a friend that you can invite, then you’re gonna make friends. That’s what we want you to do. We’re gonna make friends who understand your cluttering language. Tonya, this has been great. Thanks so much for being with us today and for leading this. I know how passionate you are about.

Tonya Kubo (25:50)

Yes, and I hope that everybody listening will join us because it really is a good time. It really is.

Kathi Lipp (25:55)

Yeah, it really is. And friends, you have been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#661 – The Hidden Link Between Loneliness and Clutter

Mar 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Overwhelmed, Podcast

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...

#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House

Mar 11, 2025 | Clutter Free, Home, Mental Load, Podcast, Shame

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering. Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she...

#659 Simple Soups for a Meaningful Lent Season

Mar 4, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal

Are you looking for a simple way to bring more meaning to your Lenten season while also creating space for family connection? In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo share their love for soup and how it can become a meaningful Lenten...

#657 Rediscover Peace: The Psychological Benefits of Decluttering

by Roger Lipp | Feb 18, 2025 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Podcast, Spiritual Renewal | 0 comments

#657 Rediscover Peace: The Psychological Benefits of Decluttering

Listen Now

In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, host Kathi Lipp is joined by Tonya Kubo to delve into the hidden costs of clutter and how it impacts our lives beyond the physical. They explore the emotional, spiritual, and financial toll that clutter can take and discuss practical steps to reclaim space and peace of mind. Tonya shares her personal journey from cluttered chaos to organized serenity, offering inspiration and insights for listeners. They also introduce the Clutter Free Bible study—an online program designed to help you tackle the root causes of clutter through a spiritual lens. Tune in to learn how decluttering can lead to emotional freedom and spiritual renewal just in time for Lent.

Click here to be notified when the next podcast episode is released!

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Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

Links Mentioned:

The Clutter Free Bible Study

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A professional community strategist, she believes everyone deserves to have a place online where they feel like they belong. Raised by a hoarder, Tonya knows firsthand the pain and isolation that comes from living in conditions others don’t understand. She wants better for her family and her cluttery peeps, which is why she is passionate about the compassionate slow-and-steady approach that makes Clutter Free unique. She lives in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit tonyakubo.com to find out more about her community work, or email her at tonya@kathilipp.org to discuss the Clutter Free Academy podcast and programs.

Transcript

Kathi Lipp (00:10)
Hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps every day to live with less clutter But more life and I am back here with the reigning queen of all things clutter. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey Tonya You know what we are diving into a season in Clutter Free Academy that really is all about Tonya and her people

Tonya Kubo (00:25)
Hey, Kathi

haha

Kathi Lipp (00:37)
And it’s it because we are coming up on link now. I’m doing some linty things Which sounds like I need to get one of those picker uppers to get stuff off my clothes. You’re right exactly Because I’m gonna be talking a lot about soup around lent because soup and lent go together really really really well Especially with the weather we’re having here in California today is is it crazy where you are to yes?

Tonya Kubo (00:43)
You are?

I was gonna say you need a roller. We need a roller.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

…Currential

Downpour.

Kathi Lipp (01:05)
Okay, totally off topic. Can I tell you how excited Roger is because we bought these giant backup batteries that for when you know, the power goes out, he wanted his computer and my computer to keep going. Sadly, the weather has been beautiful here. We have barely had a dusting of snow.

Tonya Kubo (01:14)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

And Roger did not get to play with his new toys.

Kathi Lipp (01:30)
Exactly until yesterday and then yesterday we still had beautiful weather But they had to turn our power off in order to do you know things and we got to use all of our giant batteries and Roger Lipp has never been happier, but this has nothing to do with what we’re talking about We are talking about as we go into lint I think you and I you know, we’re both looking at

Tonya Kubo (01:33)
Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (02:00)
We just cut off of a conversation where there’s a lot going on in Tonya’s life like right now like Tonya I hate to say this this has been like the most chill week I’ve had and it feels like five years

Tonya Kubo (02:11)
Yay! I was gonna

say because you haven’t had a chill week in five years, Kathi you deserve a chill week.

Kathi Lipp (02:19)
I am absorbing it and I’m doing some deep thinking and things like that. And on the opposite end of the spectrum is Tonya’s life. And it’s interesting, I’m gonna ask you a question that we did not prepare for. With everything going on in your life, there’s been some relationship stuff, emotional stuff, work stuff, kid stuff.

Tonya Kubo (02:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (02:44)
If you were still where you were 10 years ago with clutter, how would this week have looked different for you? Because I know it’s been a very stressful week, but I also know you’ve made great progress in your life.

Tonya Kubo (02:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so the thing is, is when in my life, right, when I was early in my clutter journey, because I think like we have a lot of listeners who are like eons beyond where I started off with, right? Like they are just so much, their starting point is so much higher than where my starting point was. But I wouldn’t have been able to function. I mean, I think I would have had to take like a week off of work.

Kathi Lipp (03:14)
All right.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (03:26)
I’d probably have a really hard time. I definitely would have a hard time eating. That’s always one of the things is when I am overwhelmed and life is difficult, I really struggle to feed myself. I feed the people around me, but I don’t do well feeding myself. And then I just fall into like very base level survival habits. So I wouldn’t have slept. You know, my old life, I would frequently be up 18 to 20 hours a day.

Kathi Lipp (03:31)
you

Yeah.

my goodness. I can’t even imagine.

Tonya Kubo (03:56)
Because

I just didn’t feel like I had the luxury of sleep. And so…

Kathi Lipp (03:59)
And it

can I also point something else out that I I just want to say, you know, this is again, rough couple of weeks, lots of things going on. And not only clutter wise, are you so much further behind? And, know, if somebody says that, oh, I lost $50,000 in the stock market, that’s a lot of money. But depending on where you started from, that could be life changing.

Tonya Kubo (04:03)
Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Kathi Lipp (04:28)
Or

I have to put off retirement for another three months. know, like for different people, yeah. So that you didn’t have to start with such a deficit because of this, but you have also done some big stuff for your health over the past couple of years that, you know, where, you know, 10 years ago, your health also would have taken. I’m just saying you have done so much progress in so many ways.

Tonya Kubo (04:32)
Right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (04:58)
That while this has been an incredibly hard couple of weeks You have done it with you know, you’ve kept your nose above water

Tonya Kubo (05:06)
Right, well, it’s been very easy to figure out what to do and not do, right? So it’s one of those things where, you know, it’s like the, we’re kind of at the beginning of the month and we do a lot of our grocery shopping at the beginning of the month. But like my shelves weren’t bare. It was no hardship to put off grocery shopping for a week. You know, some people had offered to bring us meals and I just said yes. And it was very easy to say yes to that because I didn’t have food rotting in the fridge.

Kathi Lipp (05:10)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Good for you.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (05:35)
because we

have a great system for eating all the food that we cook. So it was like, yeah, actually, my leftovers will be tapped out on Wednesday. So if you want to bring dinner over for us on Wednesday, that will be awesome. And then somebody else was like, well, can I just send you Uber Eats gift card? You are welcome to send us that. That would be great. I have a great use for that. So I could, when people offered help, I knew exactly what kind of help I needed. But the main thing, Kathi, is I was in bed by eight o’clock every single night.

Kathi Lipp (05:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (06:04)
Now the one hard thing for me, right, is because again, when I get stressed out, like my body just does different things. I have not been able to get out of bed before 5 a.m., which you me, I’m a 4 a.m. person.

Kathi Lipp (06:15)
I’m sorry. Yeah, for the rest of the world, yes, but for Tonya, I know that’s sleeping in.

Tonya Kubo (06:21)
But being able to sleep for that kind of stretch would not have been possible before.

Kathi Lipp (06:26)
Yeah, and you know what I’m going to attribute a lot of this to not everything but a lot of it too is that you really are our champion when it comes to the hidden cost of clutter You’re the one who’s constantly pointing out No, it’s not just that you have to move stuff over if you want to sit down on your couch You you are the one who keeps bringing up in conversation the emotional drain

Tonya Kubo (06:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (06:55)
the spiritual drain. And so that’s what I want to talk to you about today is, is it possible, all these places where we just, we are feeling so incredibly tapped out, is it possible to make changes like that in your life? And I, you know, I’m just going to say yes, because I’ve seen it in your life. I’ve seen it in my own life.

Tonya Kubo (06:58)
Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (07:22)
I’ve seen it in the lives of some of, you know, many of our members where, and I think we sometimes forget to do that because we see how much further we have to go. I’m doing this with my clutter right now. Like, can you believe how out of control my t-shirt drawer is? Like, why am I even teaching anything in Clutter Free? Because if you saw my t-shirt drawer, you’d be like, she has nothing to say. And, but before,

Tonya Kubo (07:33)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (07:51)
I was paying late charges on every bill we had. I couldn’t find, I remember the day I couldn’t find my toothbrush. Like Tonya, what happened to my toothbrush? Like where was I taking my toothbrush?

Tonya Kubo (07:55)
Right.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (08:09)
And if you came to my house right now, would I like five minutes heads up? Yeah. Do I need it? I don’t. so I, yes, that change is possible. I want to know for you, where have you seen the biggest difference in emotions from the time? And both of us are coming from guys, our houses are not perfect. And Tonya would be the first to say, cause she’s been to my house. You know, she is

Tonya Kubo (08:16)
Right.

Kathi Lipp (08:38)
Let’s just say she has a lot of life going on at her house. know, Roger and I, we could say, I could say I’m not cooking today, and it would just be fine. That would not go over so well at your house. You know, people…

Tonya Kubo (08:47)
Mm-hmm.

No. Well Abby would

love that because then Abby would be like, well, can we go to Olive Garden? answer is no, child. No, cannot. No.

Kathi Lipp (08:55)
Hahaha!

Abby and Roger are just two people separated by 50 years. That’s all there is to it.

I just want to know what, where have you seen the biggest emotional difference for you?

Tonya Kubo (09:13)
So this is, hard to articulate, but I’ll try and then you’ll make it sound like it makes sense. Before, there was always a level of chaos. So if you picture like, okay, my brain is cluttered and there’s a scale of one to 10. On a good day, my brain was already at level seven. So there was never much more space for things, right?

Kathi Lipp (09:40)
Right.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (09:41)
So

like prioritizing the simplest, I just couldn’t do it. By the end of the workday, I’d already made so many decisions. I couldn’t tell you what to have for dinner unless I’d planned that four days ago. Now, I would say my average level of like capacity of my brain taken up is like two. So like a lot of life can actually get thrown at me before I’m at that level of paralyzed that I was every single day.

Kathi Lipp (09:44)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yes.

Mmm.

That’s such a gift. is. When you’re not having to spend, you know, your levels on finding the car keys, figuring out where that permission slip is that your kid brought home three days ago. When you are not having to, you know, when dishes are not a crisis. Because I remember thinking dishes are a crisis, not this is just a part of what we do every day. I know.

Tonya Kubo (10:13)
It really is.

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (10:40)
I know that sounds dramatic, but it was amazing how long I could let the dishes go before I actually did something about them and how bad I felt about that.

Tonya Kubo (10:51)
Right. Well, so here’s the other thing, right? Is when you’re like underwater, literally underwater because life is that unmanageable because I’m sorry, but I know very few people who just have a cluttered home, right? Usually it’s a cluttered home, it’s a cluttered head, it’s a cluttered heart, it’s a cluttered schedule. And all of those things contribute to the cluttered home. So when you’re not…

Kathi Lipp (11:07)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (11:20)
that far underwater and life throws you a curve ball, it’s very easy to shift things around. You know, like you’re talking about dishes. So in our house, certain people have designated chores. It was a simple conversation of, with everything going on, Lily, I need you to be in charge of washing the dishes every day this week. Abby, I know that you’re used to three reminders to empty the dishwasher. I really need us to have a day where

Kathi Lipp (11:28)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:50)
I tell you something once and it gets done. Can you do that for me? Right? And I mean, she’s 10. Does she want to do it? No. She’s like, yeah, mommy, okay, I can do that. I see everything is going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs around here. No problem. I got that. But 10 years ago, well, let’s see, Clutter, yeah, 10, it’s been 10 years since Clutter Free came out. 10 years ago, I couldn’t have even been able to tell you what to show.

Kathi Lipp (11:52)
Mm-hmm.

Of course not.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It’s been 10 years.

Okay.

Tonya Kubo (12:18)
You would

have come to me and you would have said, Tonya, what’s not getting done this week because of all this stuff going on? I’d be like, I don’t know.

Kathi Lipp (12:24)
Yeah. And I think you made a really good point a bit ago when you are so underwater and somebody wants to throw you a rope and you’re like, I don’t even have a hand to catch that with. Like I can’t tell you how to help me. And I love that you were so specific in asking for help. We’re going to take a quick break. We’re going to come right back and I want to talk about a little bit more of the impact and then an opportunity for

Tonya Kubo (12:36)
Mmm.

Kathi Lipp (12:51)
everybody who’s listening, because I think we have some really cool stuff up coming up that I think will help you if you’re relating at all to this conversation. Okay, we’ll take a quick break and come right back.

Okay, I am back with Tonya, we’re just talking about what is the hidden cost of clutter. And you know, one of the things that we talk a lot about in the group is spiritual disconnection. And people, you know, I’ll never forget. I can quote you almost every bad review I’ve ever had on the book. By the way, I just got a one-star review on Sabbath Soup.

And she didn’t like that I said, you know, there are different days you can have your Sabbath. And her username is picky mommy. And I’m like, okay, if you see that, yeah, if she calls herself that it’s okay. But one of the bad reviews I got on Clutter Free back when it came out was that clutter isn’t a fight between good and evil. Clutter is not from the devil. Okay, fine. You know what?

Whatever you want to say, but here’s what I know. My clutter, so much of it has been rooted in fear, guilt, and shame. And those are things that leave me spiritually disconnected. Especially, I would say, especially shame. Shame is a big thing for me. I want to know from you in these past 10 years, was shame a part of your decluttering journey?

Tonya Kubo (14:03)
That’s fine.

Kathi Lipp (14:31)
Was it fear? Was it guilt? Or was that not really it? What would you say was your disconnect?

Tonya Kubo (14:39)
Well, for me, it was all three to different degrees. mean, definitely fear drove my Claire in a big way. The shame piece was… So I probably had less guilt than I had shame. I probably had more shame. For me, the shame was I really thought everybody else got this and I didn’t. Right. So I was ashamed of the fact that there was like some missing piece that I couldn’t figure out. And

Kathi Lipp (14:46)
Okay, yeah.

right.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:09)
You know, because of course so many people think clutter is a housekeeping issue. We know it’s not, you know, so it’s like, you know, a shame that I couldn’t keep a house. Well, then once I understood the emotional drivers of clutter, then it’s like, well, no, it’s like, I didn’t understand how to manage the ebb and flow of stuff. I was overwhelmed. I had an unrealistic attachment to items. I really had deep, deep fear of scarcity.

Kathi Lipp (15:14)
It’s not.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:36)
You know, I still struggle with that. I talked to a lot of our members about that, right? Like, I feel like that will always be my albatross, like until the day I die. I will always default to this fear. But the shame piece has been gone for years. I think actually shame left first. I think guilt hung on a little bit longer, but shame left first simply because it’s like, you know what? Why is irrelevant? It just is. And this is who I am.

Kathi Lipp (15:37)
Yeah. Right.

Yes. Yeah.

Mmm, that’s so exciting.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (16:05)
and

I’m just, I’m working to get better each day.

Kathi Lipp (16:09)
Do you think the fear, I know for me, it came from parental underemployment? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (16:15)
It’s poverty. Yeah, my fear

is 100 % poverty driven.

Kathi Lipp (16:19)
Yeah. And it’s a killer. part of our psyche now. It’s part of our DNA. so, you know, when you see people gathering too much or doing too much, just realize, you know, that’s probably based in real fear for them. And it’s good to have an understanding while still, you know, in ourselves trying to work on it. You know, I think about all of this, the fear, guilt and shame. It has an impact on our relationships.

Tonya Kubo (16:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (16:50)
financially, I think about this that I tend to buy things, you know, my my impulse is to buy things to have a backup of a backup of a backup because of some of that childhood stuff that is still going on. And I love that you have taken up the mantle in our group for not just Clutter Free, but for Clutter Free.

Tonya Kubo (17:01)
Mm-hmm.

Right?

Kathi Lipp (17:18)
We have a Bible study and the subtitle is, it’s Clutter Free Bible study, what Jesus has to say about your stuff. And because we know the number one topic in the New Testament isn’t anything that we are currently fighting about in the United States. It is money and stuff. Jesus knew that this was, you know, talk about an albatross around your neck. Jesus knew that this was going to be our biggest hang up.

Tonya Kubo (17:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (17:47)
in everything that we do. And so every year you lead a Bible study that I wrote 10 years ago. But it is, I would say, in many ways, it’s more relevant today in 2025 than it was in 2015. And can you tell me a little bit about why you’re so passionate about this Bible study for people who struggle with clutter?

Tonya Kubo (18:05)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, well, I mean, I’m passionate about it because this is how our Facebook group got started. I like, I’m just a little bit nostalgic about that. We got started as a Bible study. But see the thing with the Bible study, again, we have a tendency to think symptoms are the problem, right? And very rarely are symptoms and the problem the same. So where symptoms of a problem emerge oftentimes is very far from where the problem actually is rooted.

Kathi Lipp (18:16)
Guess. Mm-hmm. Guess.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (18:42)
And

clutter, this physical clutter, the stuff in our home is actually a symptom. The real problem, as you’ve pointed out, is fear, guilt, and shame. But the real problem, I think, especially for believers, is there’s this contradiction, right? We’re supposed to have this neat and tidy house, but then we have internalized this message that we’re supposed to keep every single thing we’ve bought because that’s the only way we can prove we’re a good steward of the money that we’ve been given.

Kathi Lipp (19:09)
Right.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (19:10)
And there’s

this battle that our cluttery people fight all the time between I want a tidy house. I have too much stuff in this house. I need less stuff, but I don’t want to be wasteful. And so what I love about the Bible study is it breaks it down scripture by scripture at what Jesus really says about stuff and

Kathi Lipp (19:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (19:34)
I think for most of us, because it’s a very internal process for the Bible city, this is not the sort of thing you can take before and after pictures of. This is you, your walk with clutter, you, your walk with Christ. But people kind of go internally and then they recognize, the stuff. For some people, they view the stuff as an idol. They recognize like, I’ve been idolizing these things. I think, I’m so safe and so secure because I’ve got

Kathi Lipp (19:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (20:03)
15 bags of flour in my pantry, but really the flour is an idol, right? I’m telling myself that I am better than the average person because I have 15 sacks of flour in my pantry. And if I stop and think about it, I don’t bake. So those 15 sacks of flour are actually the biggest waste. I’m better off giving it to a food bank. I’m better off giving it to somebody else. And so I just feel like

Kathi Lipp (20:08)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tonya Kubo (20:32)
It drives home how, well, clutter can be a unifying problem, how individual the root cause of each of our clutter issue is.

Kathi Lipp (20:45)
And this Bible study helps people get to the root of it. And the Bible study doesn’t clean your house, but it starts to affect your thinking when you start to have those aha moments and start to see that, this is why I’m doing this. Or here’s the truth behind why I don’t need to do this anymore.

Tonya Kubo (20:49)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right?

Kathi Lipp (21:12)
And it’s amazing what God can reveal in those times. Tonya, can you give us some details about the study of people are like, you know what, a Linton study is just what I need. And I don’t necessarily want to do the one at church because this one affects my life. I need this in my life.

Tonya Kubo (21:35)
Right, well, and the other thing is because we do it online, you don’t have to worry about walking into a building like with a big scarlet letter across your chest that says, hey, I have Claudia at my house. But the Bible says so Lent, know, Ash Wednesday is March 7th and Easter, I think if I’m not wrong, is like April 20th. So how we do the studies to the actual like core curriculum of the study is from March 7th to April 11th.

Kathi Lipp (21:45)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:04)
But I love to have a good kickoff call where I kind of lay out, I always have a small, medium and large plan for the study because I understand this time of year is very busy for some people and for other people it isn’t. And so you get to decide how deep you want to go. So on the kickoff call, we talk about, you know, sort of what your choices are with that. And then we’ll do a celebration to just kind of mark what we’ve done, the realizations that we’ve come to on April 18th.

Kathi Lipp (22:11)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:32)
and then you have completed it before Easter starts and you can celebrate Easter with your family and the miracle that comes with that. The Bible study, if you don’t already own it, because if you own it, you own it for life. And so I would just say email us if you don’t know whether you own it and we’ll let you know because we can look that up. But it’s just twenty five dollars. It’s it’s a series of videos and then there’s a printable workbook that comes with it. So you’ve got the online videos, the workbook.

Kathi Lipp (22:44)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Tonya Kubo (22:59)
We have group discussions in our Clutterfree Academy Facebook group. If Facebook isn’t your thing, that’s totally fine. You can do the videos and the workbook and you can email us some of your reflections. I always love to answer people’s emails, so that doesn’t bother me one bit. The group discussions though are really fun because everybody gets something different out of the study every single year.

Kathi Lipp (23:14)
Yeah.

And we all learn from each other. That’s really cool. And then when somebody is talking about why they do the things they do, somebody else has an aha moment. It’s just, it’s really special. It’s really special in there. Okay, so if they want to join, what do they do?

Tonya Kubo (23:33)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so if you need to buy the study because you don’t already own it, it’s kathy.link slash study. We’ll put that in the show notes too, but it’s Kathi. Just make sure it’s Kathi with an I, not with a Y. Dot link slash study. And then our Facebook group is easy to find on Facebook. You can search Cholera Free Academy or just go to kathy.link slash CFA. And that’ll take you directly to the Facebook group where you can join. If you already own the study, you don’t have to make any other purchases.

Kathi Lipp (23:52)
Mm-hmm, for sure.

Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (24:15)
The, you can, some people do like to read the book Clutter Free alongside the study. I always say that that’s like for the A plus plus people. Cause you’re committing to reading a book plus doing the video series and the discussions for six weeks. That’s a lot. But I know some people love that. They want to really go in deep, but most folks will just watch the videos and participate in the discussions and we have a great time.

Kathi Lipp (24:28)
Yes. Yes.

I love it guys. We all again all of this is in the show notes. We’ll also be talking about it in Kathi lips Clutter Free Academy on Facebook but that if you are looking for something a linten study and you would like something that is hits you exactly where you’re at if you’re listening to this podcast This is the study for you and it’s nice that it can be done from home Sometimes when it’s really busy. This is a good thing to be able to do

Tonya Kubo (25:07)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi Lipp (25:08)
Tonya,

thank you so much for all this great insight. Come back next week. We are going to be talking about some of the practical transformation that can come from this Bible study. You’re gonna love it. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lip. Now, go live the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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