Kathi Lipp (00:00)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And guys, we have a very special episode. It sounds like we’re doing an after-school special, but it is a very special episode of Clutter-Free Academy. You see, because, you know, it’s the stuff.

but oftentimes when we are struggling with this stuff, it’s not about the stuff. It’s about what the stuff represents. It’s about the relationships around the stuff. And today we’re gonna get a little help with that. This is my dear long, long friend. I don’t wanna say old friend because she’s younger than I am and has kids younger than I do, but we have been friends for a really long time. Her name is Arlene Pelican and guys,

Arlene Pellicane (00:39)
Long, I like that.

Kathi Lipp (00:49)
She is a phenomenal writer and speaker. And I wanna talk to her today. We’re talking about clutter, but we’re talking about it in the midst of relationship. And we’re focusing on her new book, Making Marriage Easier, How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life. First of all, Arlene, welcome back to the program you’ve been on before. I’m so grateful to have you back. Thank you so much for coming down.

Arlene Pellicane (01:17)
I’m so happy to be with you, my long friend. I like that. I like this long friend. So much better than old friend.

Kathi Lipp (01:19)
Long friend Yes, we don’t want to say old or aged

yeah, so I just have to ask are you a parks and rec fan by any chance?

Arlene Pellicane (01:32)
Okay, well, this is embarrassing. I am not, which I’m sure now people, don’t, I’m sorry, I don’t watch it. It’s not that I don’t like it. I just don’t watch it. So then people will be like, well now we cannot listen to anything that she has to say.

Kathi Lipp (01:43)
No,

it’s okay. I just thought did she get the title? Her subtitle from parks and rec

Arlene Pellicane (01:50)
See? So now

we know for a fact that it came from my own brain.

Kathi Lipp (01:54)
Yes, okay, it did come from your own

brain, but I am really going to encourage you. Roger and I have a poster that we held up at a wedding and it says, I love you and I like you. And that’s the two main characters. It’s one of my top three favorite shows ever. Feel free to skip over the first, like, I don’t know, season. Okay, that’s terrible. Yeah, yeah, start in season two, it’s fine.

Arlene Pellicane (02:10)
Yes. Okay, I will need to do that. Yes.

Yeah, like tell me, which season should I start in?

But I love you and I like you.

Kathi Lipp (02:24)
But

I love you and I like you and it just makes me happy. So I just had to get that out of the way. here’s the thing, I would do anything to watch it again for the first time. So here’s my gift to you. You get to watch it for the first time. yeah, well, okay. So this is really interesting because you know me, you know Roger and I both love and really like him. But I would say, I would venture to say,

Arlene Pellicane (02:29)
I love that.

Yes, this is fantastic.

Kathi Lipp (02:54)
that for many people I know that that is not the case. that what you would say? You’ve been in this, okay, so tell me more about that. Is it that, do you think that’s changed over the years or do you think that it’s always been like that and sometimes we just had to put up with it? Like, what’s your take on that? And guys, we are gonna talk about clutter, but I think this is foundational to what we’re talking about.

Arlene Pellicane (03:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we hear it more often now than before because I think the emphasis now in marriage is more on like, do you please me? Do you, you know, what do you do for me? And then it’s like, well, you, I don’t really like you very much because you didn’t do very much for me. Where I think in years past, it wasn’t so much like, do you please me? It was more like, hey, we’re a team and we’re in it to win it let’s do this thing. You know, so it wasn’t so much this inspection of, do I like you still?

Kathi Lipp (03:32)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (03:51)
You know, so I do think that is a more recent thing because we are just more self-centered as a society. We’re not as much like service oriented. Just think of, you know, volunteer organizations, for instance, that people used to go to things to whatever Lions Club, Kiwanis Club, whatever, to volunteer. You see a decline in that. And I think you can see that in marriages. Like we’re not so much there to serve one another, to be a team together. more like, well, as long as you’re good for me. Great.

Kathi Lipp (03:51)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (04:21)
but when you stop being good for me, not so much. And I think that’s what kind of has introduced us to this language of like, well, I don’t like you very much. So having said that, it is this, the reason I use that phrasing is yes, when I married James, same like you and Roger, like of course I liked him. Like obviously you like him more than anyone else in the whole worldwide world. That’s why you got married in the first place. So you’re like crazy and like with this person and then you’re married, whether it’s a year or 50 years.

Kathi Lipp (04:38)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (04:49)
And there are times where they do things that makes you think like, I do not like you very much. And I think that a lot of people that people can relate to, and I think that’s kind of normal. So one of the things that I have done is when I think to myself, well, you are being nitpicky, you know, to me, and I don’t like you very much, then I’ll think to myself, well, you probably don’t like me very much either in this moment, which is true, right? Like you’re both not liking each other at that exact moment. But to realize, you know what, we’re human.

Kathi Lipp (05:12)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (05:19)
And in any friendship, this happens too, where there’s just a moment where you’re like, hey, I didn’t really like that very much. But then you get over that and you just continue. And it’s the same thing in marriage that, hey, I’m not going to like you every minute of the day. I am going to love you. That’s my commitment. But what can I do in my marriage? How can I take out the emotional baggage, the clutter, the wrong things, the wrong soundtracks in my mind so that I can actually like you more than I can like you more often?

Kathi Lipp (05:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (05:48)
And

much of that has to do with rhythms that you’re actually connecting that it’s like, I do like you. I have time and I’m realizing on this date that I actually do like you. You are actually still funny. So it’s trying to give you more opportunities to rediscover that you really do like each other.

Kathi Lipp (06:00)
Ehh

Well, and I think that there’s a difference between I didn’t like that and I do like you. You know, it’s like I didn’t like how that conversation went. I didn’t like and so it’s very easy to turn that that phrasing into I don’t like when you do that instead of I don’t like how that went or I, you know, so to take mutual ownership oftentimes. But I do think, you know,

Arlene Pellicane (06:09)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (06:35)
I grew up in a church where it was all about women pleasing men because the framework was men have it so hard. You have no idea how hard men have it being the leaders. And so it’s all up to us to make sure they’re happy. And I think some of it’s healthy to say, no, thank you. No, we’re not doing that anymore because what everybody is doing is hard.

Arlene Pellicane (06:49)
Yep.

Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (07:03)
and is beyond themselves. And we need for both sides to go beyond themselves, to not be selfish and to say, I’m going to love you. And what that requires is beyond what’s comfortable for me sometimes, but we’re gonna do it. yeah, yes.

Arlene Pellicane (07:19)
Isn’t it interesting how it like swings? Like it would swing

like, okay, I must serve you because you have such a hard life and it becomes like too heavy one way. But then now we swung it the other way where we’re like, we’re not going to support a man because a man, you know, he’s been, I’m going to fend for myself as a woman. And we swing the other way, like serve me because do you have no idea how hard it is to be working and to be a mom and to make this dinner and all these things. And it is kind of that in the middle, right? That’s serving one another where you realize, Hey, everyone.

Kathi Lipp (07:45)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (07:48)
has like stuff to do and everyone needs that support.

Kathi Lipp (07:50)
Right.

And we need to be able to recognize that in each other. In your book, you talk about four key marriage decisions. Can you give me an overview of what they are? And then we’re going to dive deep. I want to talk about stuff because I, know, Jesus talks more about money and possessions than anything else in the New Testament. So he knew this was going to be a point of contention.

Arlene Pellicane (07:56)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Stuff.

Kathi Lipp (08:20)
So when we, we’ll get into the stuff of it, but let’s talk about these four key marriage decisions and why they’re so important.

Arlene Pellicane (08:20)
Yes.

Yeah.

The first decision, and these were, you James and I have been married for 25 years and we’ve been happily married and it was like, why is this working? Kind of this thought, like, what is it? We’re not superheroes. We’re human. We have fights. Like, why is this working? Yeah.

Kathi Lipp (08:36)
Yeah.

Okay, I want to say something to that because

I think it’s the exception. We were just at dinner with somebody on Saturday night and they said, we can’t believe your marriage. And I’m like, and here’s the thing, I think that they have a good marriage. I think that they have a happy marriage, but it really is the exception, isn’t it?

Arlene Pellicane (09:02)
You know, you can feel that way because you think like, no one’s talking like this. But my hope is, you know, with making marriage easier and with different things that more and more people will be able to say this. And hopefully there are more people who feel this way who we’re just not meeting. they’re out there. We just didn’t have dinner with them. That’s all.

Kathi Lipp (09:14)
Yeah, I hope so. Yes, let’s hope so.

So you’ve had 25 years of a happy marriage.

Arlene Pellicane (09:23)
Yeah. Yeah. So these

decisions, so it’s kind of like, like dissect this, like what have we done? So decision number one is play by the rules. And this is the idea of fighting fair, of not following your feelings, but following God’s commands. And you know, you think in Psalm one, it’s saying blessed is the man who delights in the law of the Lord. It’s kind of weird. It’s not like that they loved God. They love the law of the Lord. I love the rules of God. I love

Kathi Lipp (09:30)
Okay.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (09:53)
the way God orders things. And that’s what, when you play by the rules and you say, I love how God has made marriage and I want to honor these rules, I’m going to play by them. So what does this look like? You know, it means I’m not going to have adultery. I’m not going to steal something from you. I’m not going to lie to you. You know, you’re playing by the rules. You know, one of our rules is we call the power hour and that’s simply the rule of having a meal every day together.

Kathi Lipp (10:01)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:18)
It’s not legalistic.

It’s not like, you’re not here, but I’m hungry, so I can’t eat. It’s not like that, but it’s just the rhythm. Like every day, unless someone’s traveling or someone has a weird appointment, we’re gonna eat together. So there are certain rules and rhythms that you’ll say, you know, something like, I’m not gonna eat, I’m not gonna be with someone of the opposite sex alone over coffee or dinner. You know, things like that, that these are, play by these rules. So that’s the first decision. The second one is, I will give thanks every day.

Kathi Lipp (10:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (10:47)
So it’s making a home based on gratitude that that’s the stuff that’s important, right? To be thankful versus look what I don’t have. Look what I don’t have. I don’t have this marriage. I don’t have the good couch. Like this is ridiculous. So don’t that, that will tear down your home. So give thanks every day. The third thing decision is to serve your spouse. You know, people are, I don’t want to serve my spouse. They’re going to treat me like a doormat. That’s so outdated. But this is the idea of instead of a

Kathi Lipp (10:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (11:15)
approaching your marriage like, well, what have you done for me lately? Because boy, that sounds like a lot of fun. Be like, do I have to like tap and do a tap dance to make you happy? know, what have you done for me lately? Instead of that, we say, how can I make your life easier? You know, how can, what can I do for you today? So that attitude of service, all of a sudden, now you’re empowered to serve your spouse and do something good versus just inspecting and being disappointed at what you didn’t get, right? And then the fourth,

Kathi Lipp (11:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (11:44)
And final decision is to have, be serious about fun. Take fun seriously. So you had fun and that’s why you got married because even going to the grocery store or to the bank with your beloved when you were dating was fun because you were together, right? It was just like, yay, we’re together. We’re getting an oil change and this is so much fun because we’re in the car together, you know? So what happens when you’re married, you’re like, that’s extra. Like we can’t have fun. We don’t have money for that. We don’t have time for that.

Kathi Lipp (11:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (12:14)
So forget it, we don’t have fun. And then what happens? It’s like, we don’t have anything in common anymore because we never have fun. So it’s very important to say, my goodness, I should save money for that little excursion. I should put aside time to have date night because I actually need to laugh with you. And that’s something you and Roger do so well and so often, right? Is you make each other laugh and that’s what makes marriage easier. So take your fun seriously.

Kathi Lipp (12:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I look forward, today we have to go to, our RV is stored in a nether city and we have to go and do some repairs. And I’m looking forward to it because I get to hang out with him and have conversations. And it’s the stupid stuff, but you’re right. know, anything can be fun when it’s approached in the right way. I do think it is, you know, it’s both people agreeing to meet in that space.

Arlene Pellicane (12:52)
See?

I love that. Yeah.

Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:09)
And think that that’s where, you know, one person’s working on the marriage and the other one is not. And that’s where we can get into trouble and feel like we’re struggling. But it’s been interesting. One of these things I see now that is I really press against, I don’t like it, is, well, you should just do that without me having to say thank you. And I…

Arlene Pellicane (13:20)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (13:37)
Here’s the thing. Yes, there are some things that roger does and I probably don’t notice and I probably don’t say thank you But if he does something and I do notice there’s going to be a thank you even if it seemed Yeah, like I know some people say I shouldn’t have to say thank you for unloading the dishwasher because that’s just part of Home maintenance and yes, it is just part of home maintenance and also i’m grateful

Arlene Pellicane (13:49)
Yes.

Kathi Lipp (14:06)
that he has taken that on as his mental load, I don’t ever have to worry about dishes. And I am so grateful for that. And there are things he never has to worry about, and he is grateful for that. And so I think showing up in those ways is really important, even though it goes against modern wisdom and modern convention.

Arlene Pellicane (14:09)
Yes.

Yeah.

I’m

with you on this. So think of a server in a restaurant. They are just doing what they’re supposed to be doing. They are literally paid to bring you a menu, bring you your food, be pleasant to you and refill your water. They are literally doing your duty, their duty. They owe it to you. That’s their job. So am I going to just sit there and not be grateful? Am I just going to sit there and be like, yeah, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to be doing. I’m going to say thank you. Like you brought me my meal. Thank you. And in fact, this

Kathi Lipp (14:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I… Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (14:56)
what you have said shines light on something that happened to me at a restaurant. I was eating with three of my girlfriends and we were very like nice to the server, like just normal. And she literally came up to us afterwards, almost like in tears. And she was like, she was like, you are the nicest people. You wouldn’t believe the people I serve here. They are so mean and demanding and like it’s so hard.

Kathi Lipp (15:12)
I knew exactly what you were going to say. Yep.

Arlene Pellicane (15:25)
you are really, really nice. And I couldn’t believe it. I was like, we were just acting like cordially, like it was just normal. So I think we’ve come to that place that, it’s a bad place. It’s an ugly place where we think you owe that to me. So I’m not going to give thanks for something you owe to me. And that’s like a very ugly place to be. So I think if we can do it, we see it with the server in the restaurant. So my goodness in your home, even though you’re supposed to.

Kathi Lipp (15:42)
Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (15:52)
drive the kids to school, you’re supposed to bring home a paycheck, you’re supposed to do the dishwasher, please do say thank you, because that really does lend to that key decision, give thanks.

Kathi Lipp (16:03)
And especially if you’re going to a restaurant Sunday after church, because waiters hate Sunday after church. And it’s like, what a reputation. We need to be the most generous, the most kind, the most, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break. And then when we come back, we’re gonna talk about one of the most often marriage testing things, and that is stuff.

Arlene Pellicane (16:10)
Yeah.

Yes, the nicest, biggest tip. Yes, most patient, very kind, use their name.

Kathi Lipp (16:31)
So we’ll take a quick break and come right back with Arlene Pelleking. Okay, guys, we are back. in your book, you talk about stuff. And you talk about some of the materialistic traps in marriage. You were telling a story about your first apartment. I love, did you really have trash bag curtains?

Arlene Pellicane (16:59)
Yes,

we really did. We’re super classy. So our first apartment was on the fourth floor in Dallas, Texas. It was no elevator. we literally with the groceries when we packed in everything, four flights of stairs in hot Dallas, we got there, you know, I mean, it’s hot there. You get it. So anyway, we’re very poor, you know, we’re new newlyweds. The place is completely empty. It has like a card table and like a bed, you know, you get it. And all this stuff is going to be garage sale things. So we had no curtains.

Kathi Lipp (17:03)
Hahaha!

No.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (17:29)
And we’re like, boy, it gets like really sunny in here. So we’re like, okay, we’re going to make curtains with these black hefty bags. So we took the black hefty bags, know, we slit them and we hung them and put little ties around them. And we’re like, wow, this really works really good to block the sun and to do the things and to give that extra shade. we’re like, this is awesome. So it was so funny because here we are with these black hefty bags and we didn’t care.

Kathi Lipp (17:33)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (17:56)
because it’s like we were so happy together, it didn’t matter. And then in fact, our first fight was over him inviting a neighbor to dinner. And I had told him specifically, he asked me, hey, I just met our new neighbor, can I invite him to dinner? And I was like, no, because I only had two chicken breasts, I didn’t know how to cook, I was using my George Foreman grill for the first time, like this was.

Kathi Lipp (17:57)
Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (18:22)
I didn’t know how to cook. I’m like, this is going to be magic. I’m going put the chicken in. It’s going to come out. It’s going be amazing. But I was so super nervous about it. So I was like, and then we have the trash bags on the wall and we eat at this card table. I’m like, no, you cannot have someone last minute for dinner. And guess who came to dinner? Walter. Yes, of course. Knocked. Came to dinner and I couldn’t believe it. So I’m just like, okay, Walter, sit here. I was super nice to Walter, of course. He ate my chicken with the black trash bags. I mean, it was great.

Kathi Lipp (18:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Of course.

Of course.

Arlene Pellicane (18:52)
And when Walter left, I was very mad at James and he was like, he bear hugged me and he’s like, I’m sorry. And like, are you sorry because I’m mad at you? Are you sorry for what you did? You know? And thankfully we have never had an unwelcome guest. We have had guests, but they’ve had more notice. So, and I’m getting a little bit looser and we do have real curtains, but you know what? It’s okay when people actually like Walter.

Kathi Lipp (19:03)
Right.

Yes.

Arlene Pellicane (19:16)
as he was eating my chicken. Like he doesn’t care really, he probably finds it amusing that we have that. So sometimes we think we’ve got to have this stuff to impress our friends. And I get it, there is a certain level of stuff that you do need. I think it was good that we went and we don’t have the curtains, right? We don’t have that anymore. So there is a certain level that you do need. But once you get to that level, you can kind of stop because sometimes we think, if I get that new thing,

Kathi Lipp (19:21)
Right. Right.

Mm-hmm. I’m glad you upgraded your curtains. Yes

Arlene Pellicane (19:45)
it’ll make me really happy. But then you get the new thing and you enjoy it for a month. But then it’s like, I am not that much happier. So I am not a very good like designer person. Like I love beautiful things and I like nice things, but I don’t know how to put things together, right? Like I don’t know how to make it all look like ta-da, like this. So basically our house has kind of looked the same for the last like, let’s say 20 years. It’s like all the same furniture, all the same things. Anything that’s new has come off of

Kathi Lipp (19:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:15)
Craigslist or given away by someone who is moving, et cetera. And it’s fine and it looks fine. It’s great. But it’s like, I don’t have this, it has simplified life to not have to always upgrade the sofa, upgrade the table, upgrade the thing. Kind of like, hey, let’s buy this once, let’s buy quality and then let’s never buy it again.

Kathi Lipp (20:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (20:35)
And that

really has helped us to kind of simplify. We don’t always have to be changing these things, buying new things. I don’t have to have a new look because now it’s gray, it’s not brown. It’s like, it’ll be brown again someday. So just kind of like have that mindset like, if I make all these changes, it really doesn’t change the quality of the relationships in the house.

Kathi Lipp (20:46)
Right?

Yeah,

you know there there’s a great reddit thread. It’s called buy it for life And you know what vacuum cleaner are you gonna buy that you just buy for life? What’s the couch that you’re gonna buy and some of them are really expensive? But some of them are not and a lot of them you can get secondhand and you’re right, you know, you may enjoy I I will admit it. I’m addicted to throw pillows. It’s a problem

Arlene Pellicane (21:04)
Yes.

Yes!

Kathi Lipp (21:25)
And I will say they bring me a lot of joy. And I’ve had to also say, I don’t think any new pillows will bring me any more joy. Because every day when I sit down in our living room, there are a few pillows, I’m like, they just make me happy. But yes, you know, there are not ones out there. I am not searching for happier pillows. you know, it’s like, don’t replace joy for joy. If you already have the joy,

Arlene Pellicane (21:42)
Yes!

Yes!

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi Lipp (21:55)
You don’t need

to be going and looking for other joy, you know, because yeah, it is often, I’m just trying to impress somebody or I want somebody to feel this way about me when they come through the door. Okay, go ahead.

Arlene Pellicane (22:06)
I have

to, I’m thinking of something that’s so funny. So I do want to have, I do want to say, like, I don’t get a lot of joy from decorating. So that makes it easy for me not to do it. So if you’re listening and this is something you super love, you know, then it may be something you really do do for the love of it. So I don’t want to discount that. With the throw pillows, it wouldn’t it be funny if there’s certain things in your house you love so much.

Kathi Lipp (22:15)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (22:31)
but you like put them away for the day. Like if you put your throw pillows in your closet for a day and then you took them out the next day, you’d be like, my throw pillow is back. So we did this with our daughter Lucy when she was two years old. She had a favorite little doggie, Violet, the purple doggie, the leapfrog one that like talks and sings and stuff. And she loved Violet.

Kathi Lipp (22:39)
you’re back!

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (22:53)
So what we did one year is we took Violet and we put a biking helmet on Violet and a little jacket on Violet and we made it biker Violet and we wrapped it for Christmas and she opened it as a two year old on Christmas day and saw biker Violet and you could not even believe the delight that that child had. She was like, Violet and Violet had the biking helmet on and this little jacket. It was like biker.

Kathi Lipp (23:02)
You

Arlene Pellicane (23:21)
And it was the cutest thing. And I thought to myself, I am such a smart mom. I took the same present and I dressed it up for this two year old and this two year old think it’s the best thing ever. And you know what? Maybe as adults, can like, how can you dress up what you already have? How can you like put it away and then take it out so that it’s the same stuff, but you get that little thrill of like, I’ve missed you Violet or you look different Violet. So it was so funny.

Kathi Lipp (23:37)
Yeah.

Okay, I love

the violet story so much. And we kind of do this, like we’ve been given little gifts before, and it’s like stuff I really like, but I don’t necessarily want stuff out all year round. And it’s very seasonal here. You know, in San Jose, I didn’t know, and where you live too. You don’t know the difference between March 30th and October 30th. Yeah, exactly. So we’ll…

Arlene Pellicane (24:10)
Right.

November 1st. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (24:19)
We do have like a summer box has like some flag stuff, because that’s I’m born on flag day. So I get flag stuff. And I’ll put things like the little donkey my friend, Susie gave me in that box. And when I open it, I’m like, I love the donkey. But then I put it away. It’s so true. So how do you feel that having less stuff in your life can contribute to

Arlene Pellicane (24:35)
All right. Right.

Kathi Lipp (24:49)
an easier time in your marriage because I believe it can but I don’t know that people see the through line for that.

Arlene Pellicane (24:50)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes. When you have a lot of stuff, you have to manage your stuff. You have to take care of your stuff. So whether it’s taking care like I have a friend who has a boat, he’s on the boat all the time. So you kind of like for his wife, it’s kind of like the boat is the other woman. So that’s a very extreme example, like how the stuff takes a lot of time. So you have to just take that to heart. So if you have

Kathi Lipp (25:00)
Exactly.

You

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Arlene Pellicane (25:24)
so much stuff and you have to organize it. Like right now, my laundry room, which has shelves, has so much stuff. So in my mind, when I go in there, it’s like, I’m so stressed out. It’s like half pantry, half like kid stuff, half activity stuff, games, it’s everything. So I know I need to take time, a good swath of time, and go through all of that. Now, if that is multiplied all throughout my house and I keep piling more on,

Kathi Lipp (25:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Arlene Pellicane (25:51)
then I have more and more time that I have to spend to organize it versus if I actually did think from here on out, and this is a work in progress, buy it once, keep it, buy quality, you and maybe when I look at a new thing to be like, do I really need that new clutter that’s gonna be like another thing for me to have to find a place for? And maybe then I say, no, I’m not gonna buy that, because I know my laundry room is packed and I don’t need that. So what does that do?

Well, it frees me up my headspace, frees my headspace from worrying about it. It frees me up two hours on a Saturday where I would have to like manage my things. Now I can go out and have ice cream with my husband or my kids. So I do think it is a time issue of the time that you spend buying it, figuring out where do I put it, and then figuring out where do I store it, then figuring out do I want it or not want it, all those things, you know, they take time. So the less…

Kathi Lipp (26:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (26:47)
you have to do that, then the more time you have to spend, the less time you have to spend organizing your garage and the more time you can be riding bikes with your kids or doing whatever, you know. So it is a good concept. mean, please don’t hear me and think I’m like this minimalist guru. We have stuff coming out of our ears because I do, I like to keep things, you know, my middle daughter, she’s very minimalist. She can do it. She can look at something, she’ll get a trophy.

Kathi Lipp (26:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Arlene Pellicane (27:14)
tennis trophy on Tuesday, it’s in the trash on Friday. You know what I mean? Like she’ll be like, I got it. That was great. I don’t really need this. Where I’ll be like, well, I’m going to keep that for a few years, you know? So there, she’s very like, I don’t need that. Like she’s very minimalist. Like I enjoyed it and I’m going to get rid of it. And I’m more of the like, it’s a treasure. Like I will keep it. So, you know, we’re all across this, this spectrum of how we view our stuff.

Kathi Lipp (27:17)
Wow.

Wow.

Arlene Pellicane (27:43)
But I think when it comes acquiring right now more, that this is a good time where we can say, you know what, less is probably better. You know, I’ve read something from Mickalyn Smith, the nester, and she said that the most luxurious room in my home is my bedroom because it’s completely clutter free. It’s just like the bed and these like very minimalistic decor and my clothes. And she just talks about luxury is needing less.

Kathi Lipp (27:51)
Yeah.

You have.

Arlene Pellicane (28:12)
And I really like that thought like, it’s more luxurious not to have your

stuff packed everywhere with stuff. It’s more luxurious to be like, I just have a few things I really like.

Kathi Lipp (28:23)
Well, and also I just did an episode with a doctor who specializes in sleep and the less that’s in your best bedroom, the less it pings you and yeah, you sleep better, you know, and with our acquisition, people who have listened to this podcast know that we talk about STEM, space, time, energy and money and the less stuff, the less space it takes up. So the less pinged you are time you’re like you were saying you’re not

Arlene Pellicane (28:31)
Interesting. My goodness.

Hmm. Yep. Yes.

Kathi Lipp (28:53)
dealing with that energy. You know, we’re always so exhausted, but we’re managing so much stuff. And then money because money is one of the biggest stress points in most marriages. And if we can hold on to more of that not spending it, you know, there there are certain places, you know, Costco is a trap for me. Target can be a trap for me. I have never met something at Trader Joe’s that I didn’t like, you know.

Arlene Pellicane (28:57)
Yep.

Right, me too.

Right.

Kathi Lipp (29:22)
These

are traps for me, but the money gives me options. And that’s what I want in my marriage. What if somebody is struggling over the state of their house with their spouse, whether their husband is on the messier side or maybe, you know, for the people who are listening, maybe it’s us, maybe we’re the ones who are struggling on the messier side. What are some talking points?

that you could have for that discussion as we close up here. What is something, how can you open up that conversation, whether it’s you or the other person?

Arlene Pellicane (30:01)
Yeah. You know, I would say start not with the idea like, am going to convince this person to be less messy. Right? Start instead of just being curious of like, how might we fix this? Like, how might this be easier? And approach your spouse that way. Like, hey, you know what? You know, I’m always nagging you to pick up your stuff and you’re always leaving your stuff around. I don’t want to nag you.

I don’t want to do that. So let’s brainstorm together. How can we make this easier for both of us? And just be kind of curious about like, maybe the messy person will say, you know, I really like the house messy because I grew up in a messy house and it just makes me feel at home. And when the house is so neat and picked up, I feel like it’s sterile, like I feel like it’s hospital. And you know what? As a spouse, if you heard that,

Kathi Lipp (30:29)
Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Arlene Pellicane (30:53)
it would give you a new perspective of, you actually feel really comfortable right now. This feels good to you. But now you’re kind of curious, you know, about what my husband would say you’re crossing the street. Like you’re crossing the street to find out what does the other person say about this. And then you could tell them, well, okay, that helps me to understand that that’s where, but for me, it has the opposite effect. I come home and I’m all freaked out. So maybe you do zones.

Kathi Lipp (30:58)
This feels good to you, yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:21)
that you’re like, hey, we’re gonna keep the kitchen area really clean and we’re gonna keep the bedroom really clean. And then the other part, the little family room, if you wanna junk that up, that can be like our thing. But you have to promise when we have people over, you have to help me clean it up. But like, I love this conversation of like, how can we make this easier for both of us so that we both could enjoy this just a little more. So don’t try to go for the total win.

Kathi Lipp (31:27)
Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Arlene Pellicane (31:48)
Like we’re gonna completely clean the house, but just a little more, how could we make this a little better for both of us?

Kathi Lipp (31:54)
Yeah, because when there are winners and losers in a marriage, everybody loses. It’s just that it never works out. You never are going to win against your spouse because you’re never supposed to be set against your spouse. And so I love, I love, love, love this idea. Arlene, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Arlene Pellicane (31:59)
Yes. Yeah.

Yep.

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been so, so much fun. And I want to encourage you, instead of spending your money on stuff, spend it, save it for experiences. Because the experiences, you enjoy it three times. And I talk about how you can enjoy experiences three times in the book.

Kathi Lipp (32:26)
Yeah.

I think I know what you’re talking about. But yes. OK. The book is called Making Marriage Easier. How to love and like your spouse for life. We’ll have notes. We’ll have an ordering link in the show notes so you can go there and order it at Amazon or any of your favorite retailer, wherever books are sold. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Cathy Lip. Now.

Go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.