In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp sits down with Kristin Strong, author of "Praying Through Loneliness: A 90 Day Devotional for Women." Together, they uncover the intertwined relationship between clutter and loneliness, offering...
#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House
#660 – Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House
In this episode of Clutter Free Academy, Kathi Lipp welcomes author Dana K. White for their first-ever conversation about the intersection of faith and decluttering.
Dana shares her personal journey from anonymous blogger to bestselling author, revealing how she discovered that creative, successful women often struggle the most with clutter. Together, they explore why shame is so deeply connected to our messy spaces and how understanding that “Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house” can be the key to making real progress.
If you’ve ever felt that your cluttered home somehow makes you a spiritual failure, this episode offers liberating insights. Dana debunks common misconceptions about biblical references to order and cleanliness, including a fresh perspective on the Proverbs 31 woman.
Listeners will discover:
- Why traditional organizing advice often fails creative minds
- How removing shame is the first step to making actual progress
- Dana’s practical decluttering question: “If I needed this item, where would I look for it first?”
- The freedom that comes from embracing the reality of your space
Whether you’re just starting your decluttering journey or have been struggling for years, this conversation offers both spiritual encouragement and practical strategies to help you create a functional home without shame.
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As mentioned by Kathi:
Dana K. White’s website – https://danakwhite.com/
Dana’s new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House – https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/jesus/
Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest
Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.
Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.
Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.
Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”
Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.
Links Mentioned:
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Order Sabbath Soup here
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Meet Our Guest
Dana K White
Dana K. White is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, speaker, and creator of the No Mess Decluttering Process. Through her podcast, YouTube channel, and three published books, she shares practical decluttering and organizing strategies that work for real people who don’t naturally love to clean. As the founder of DeclutteringCoaches.com, she now trains and certifies others in her unique approach to home management.
Transcript
Kathi Lipp (00:19.694)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. Okay, you guys, you refer to her in so many emails to me, you quote her, you, I think you want me to be her, but you know what? I’ve got the next best thing. She is here on the podcast.
And this is our first time meeting, so I’m so glad we’re doing it with all of my friends listening. You guys, it is Dana K. White. Dana, welcome to Clutterfree Academy.
Dana K White (00:56.509)
Thank you so much for having me on. I have been hearing for years, you’ve got to meet Kathi. Like you just have to and I’m like, okay. So I’m excited that we’re getting to meet finally.
Kathi Lipp (01:01.518)
Well, you know, I have also heard that, but let me just tell you where I’ve encountered you the most when I’m going to Amazon to see how my books are doing and who’s outselling me. And it’s always you. Not that I’m bitter or anything, but you know what? Here’s what I love. The message about decluttering and about Jesus is getting out there. So if it’s you, I will cheer you on because now I’ve discovered you’re really nice. So, okay. Instead of
Dana K White (01:12.999)
Okay.
Dana K White (01:19.559)
Sorry.
Dana K White (01:28.475)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dana K White (01:35.365)
And I’m funny.
Kathi Lipp (01:36.43)
And you’re funny, I love a funny queen. I love this so much. Okay, we have so much to get into and I know we’re gonna get sidetracked. So I’m just gonna dive in. And by the way guys, if you’re one of the three people who doesn’t know who Dana K. White is, she’s written several books, three quarters of a million books sold. So like she knows what she is talking about.
Dana K White (01:41.715)
you
Kathi Lipp (02:00.18)
Also a YouTube star. for my, you know, millennials and, you know, Z listeners, you guys have seen her. I’m sure you have. But I, here’s what I want to discuss because when I first started in this decluttering game, I did not understand that I would be talking. I thought I was going to be talking about organizational systems. I thought I was going to be talking. What I end up talking about all the time.
is shame. And I, why do shame and clutter go hand in hand? Why are these two things like kissin’ cousins? Because I don’t know that a lot of people who are struggling with clutter think it’s shame based, but I would say when I’m talking to people, at least 75 % of the time it is.
Dana K White (02:54.695)
Well, think, so coming at it, not necessarily from the clutter being the result of the shame, but the shame being result of the clutter. what, okay, so my story is that I started this anonymous blog. I thought it was gonna be temporary. It was just gonna be practice because I was desperate to write, but my house had always been a disaster, like always, always, always. Every space I touched turned into a disaster, right? And so I,
Kathi Lipp (02:59.694)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (03:12.876)
Yeah.
Dana K White (03:20.723)
was writing about this, thinking it was a way to stay focused on my home and be able to figure that out so I could then start writing about other things that I actually had any desire whatsoever to write about, which was not this. And I was anonymous in the beginning because I didn’t tell anybody what I was doing. I didn’t even tell my husband. I was so, this was my shameful secret. Like my clutter was my shameful secret. And a lot of…
Kathi Lipp (03:30.538)
Right. Yes.
Kathi Lipp (03:44.556)
Yeah.
Dana K White (03:50.279)
my actual change came from the fact that people started reading what I was doing. And while I assumed that they were gonna say, well, get off the internet, you’re a horrible person, right? Instead, what they said was, these are my thoughts, these are my struggles, these are the same things that go through my head, the same things that I do. And so knowing I was not alone was actually the most powerful thing in being able to change.
Kathi Lipp (04:02.368)
Right?
Kathi Lipp (04:06.413)
Yeah.
Dana K White (04:17.809)
Because what I saw, like, so this was back in 2009, remember the blogging days, right? And when people would leave a comment, you would click on their name on Blogger and you could see a little profile about them, right? And I started to see that these were highly creative women, like artists and poets and lots of theater arts teachers. I was a theater arts teacher, right? Like before I had kids. so like I…
Kathi Lipp (04:23.704)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (04:38.23)
Yes.
Dana K White (04:47.867)
there was this common thread. They were also very highly successful women, right? And so I saw that, okay, so this creative side of me that I’ve always been like, thank you God for making me creative, right? Was directly related to my struggles with clutter. And when I saw that, it helped me accept that this struggle is part of how my brain works. And I like my brain, it’s a little weird, you know? I like it.
Kathi Lipp (05:01.44)
Right?
Kathi Lipp (05:13.112)
Yes. Right? Yes.
Dana K White (05:18.373)
except for this issue. And when I realized that, it gave me permission to say, okay, I don’t have to feel like a failure because traditional organizing advice doesn’t work for me, right? Because the people writing that have very different brains than mine, right? And so, exactly. So I think the shame issue often comes down to the disconnect between I am a successful, intelligent woman.
Kathi Lipp (05:28.876)
Yes.
Kathi Lipp (05:34.125)
Yes!
Kathi Lipp (05:47.224)
Mm-hmm.
Dana K White (05:48.765)
But if you look at my house, you’re gonna assume that I’m an idiot. I know that sounds awful and harsh, right? But that’s the way I felt like. Like you look at my house and you think, you would never assume that I was a successful, intelligent woman, right? And so this disconnect of like, but I can do things. I can figure things out. I am able to go out there and lead and do things. And people who knew me in the workplace,
Kathi Lipp (05:57.835)
Right.
Right.
Kathi Lipp (06:08.919)
Right.
Kathi Lipp (06:12.802)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dana K White (06:18.969)
never thought I was a horrible disorganized mess at home. people would tell me they were very surprised to find that out about me. And so it becomes this shameful secret that you wanna hide. And then also makes you feel bad about yourself. Because you’re like, this seems to be easy for everybody else in the world. This doesn’t make sense with who I am. Right, so anyway, I think that’s where a lot of that shame comes from is that disconnect.
Kathi Lipp (06:25.474)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (06:29.6)
Right.
Kathi Lipp (06:41.324)
Yes.
Dana K White (06:43.031)
of I can do things, but I for some reason cannot do this thing. Like of all things, this is the thing I can’t do. What? Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (06:50.122)
Right, and let me just affirm so much of what you’re saying. Cluttery people are the most creative people I have encountered. They are intelligent and they are incredibly kind. Like they would give you anything that they could find in their house if they could find it. And so, yeah, so.
Dana K White (07:06.247)
Yes.
Dana K White (07:13.23)
And they brought it into their house thinking of what your needs might be in the future. Right? Like, and I think that’s where so much of the disconnect comes in. You know, I mean, we’re gonna, you my new book is spiritually focused. My other books have no spiritual content in them, right? But this, the idea that,
Kathi Lipp (07:18.208)
It’s so true. It is so true.
Kathi Lipp (07:28.632)
Right.
Dana K White (07:35.741)
people are collecting that they have clutter because they’ve been collecting things out of greed or selfishness is just not true. And so when somebody’s coming at it from that angle of like, okay, well, you need to be less greedy and less selfish. Well, like you said, you know, in your experience working with people who struggle with clutter, they are not greedy or selfish. That is not the reason that this clutter is here. And so then if people are coming at it trying to be helpful from that angle, then I already feel misunderstood.
Kathi Lipp (07:41.868)
No, it’s not.
Kathi Lipp (07:53.75)
Mm-hmm. No, no.
Dana K White (08:05.243)
I already feel like you don’t get it, so therefore you’re not gonna be able to help me. And so then that’s where it becomes even more shameful when you feel like, okay, I think I’m doomed to this.
Kathi Lipp (08:05.303)
Right.
Kathi Lipp (08:16.566)
Yes, absolutely. There’s no way out. I’m going to be like this for the rest of my life because I’ve tried everything and it doesn’t work. And you know, when you I love what you were saying there because oftentimes I would bring things into my house and or I would ignore messes in my house because I was out there in the world doing so much and then my house would get the last bit of attention because I was
Dana K White (08:25.553)
Yes.
Kathi Lipp (08:46.87)
I was giving everything away out in the world. And I felt like I had to do that because of this shame. so it’s this, it’s this piling on top of each other, on top of each other. And it’s heartbreaking for so many people. And so, okay, I, here’s what I want to do. I want to take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to understand what, what does Jesus think about this? What does God think about this? Because
You know, I think about verses about put all things in order and things, you know, God is a God of order. We see that everywhere. But, and then when we try to reconcile that with who we are, man, the shame can just, it can even go deeper. So we’re gonna take a quick break, listen to a couple of commercials, pay a couple of bills, and then we’re gonna come back and Dana is going to lay it all out for us, friends. Okay, we’ll be right back.
Okay, I am back with Dana K. White. And first of all, I love the title of your new book, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House. But Dana, my people are gonna say, yes, He does. Because God is a God of order. know, God wants us to be hospitable and bring people into our spaces. So like, Dana, you are telling us untruths.
Dana K White (10:07.859)
Okay, so yeah, but I mean it. Like I absolutely mean that, that Jesus doesn’t. No, I’m glad you brought up, because it is a reaction, right? Like it’s not what I thought, but I’m like, here’s what I, the title is not, Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House So Don’t Bother. Like that’s not at all the title, right? The title is meant.
Kathi Lipp (10:11.51)
- Do you love that I called you a liar right here on the podcast?
It is, right?
Kathi Lipp (10:32.514)
Yeah.
Dana K White (10:35.275)
And I mean what I say because nothing I do gets me closer to God, right? Like I do not earn his love. He is looking at my heart. And when He’s looking at my heart, especially because He created my brain on purpose, it’s not defective, it was not a mistake.
that He made me in a way that physical stuff tends to get out of control more easily for me than for someone else, right? That’s not a mistake. So when He’s looking at me, He’s like, I know that, right? I know this is a struggle. It doesn’t mean that I don’t work on it, but it doesn’t mean that it has any effect whatsoever on my relationship with Jesus, right? Because when God looks at me, if I am a follower of Jesus, He’s seeing Jesus’ righteousness on me. And if I think that,
Kathi Lipp (11:23.862)
Right.
Dana K White (11:32.775)
that He’s seeing me and what I, you know, have accomplished and what I have done and that that’s getting me toward Him, then I don’t actually get what He’s looking for, right? And so then that’s actually what I wouldn’t say frustrates, but you know what I mean? Like that’s the thing that keeps me from God, is not understanding what it is that He’s actually asking of me. So it’s very important to understand that because so many times over the years, right?
Kathi Lipp (11:42.669)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (11:49.078)
Right.
Dana K White (12:01.768)
is people can say things like, but God is a God of order. But the Proverbs 31 woman, you know, she wasn’t lazy. And you’re like, okay, but
Kathi Lipp (12:08.024)
Yeah, gosh, yeah.
Dana K White (12:15.299)
let’s have the full conversation there. Let’s have the full conversation about Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. It doesn’t mean that you don’t worry about it, but you don’t worry about it as a way to please God, right? And so when we take that shame away, because for me, I assumed when I started this whole deslobification process, I was like, I thought that at some point, God was going to show me the verse I had missed, or the spiritual concept that I had not understood, and I was going to go,
Kathi Lipp (12:17.196)
Yes.
Kathi Lipp (12:28.557)
Right.
Kathi Lipp (12:35.192)
Mm-hmm.
Dana K White (12:44.667)
Okay, now it’s all easy, right? Like I thought I was missing something spiritually. And instead He said, Dana, I have never been upset about your messy house. I want you to give Me your heart, like all of you to use as I see fit, right? And so give Me everything, but not as a way to earn Jesus’ love, right? And so it’s this thing of removing that shame.
Kathi Lipp (12:47.83)
Right. Yes.
Kathi Lipp (12:58.35)
Hmm.
Dana K White (13:13.115)
And removing the shame is actually the thing that allows me to move forward. Like we were talking about, like shame is such an issue. It’s so debilitating. Shame is not motivating at all. It is not. Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (13:19.266)
Yes, it is not. And shame is not going to change you in the positive and it’s not gonna change anybody you love. Because I’m sure so many of us who are listening here were shamed about our messy rooms, were shamed about our backpacks in school. I remember, I haven’t remembered this in 40 years, but I remember a teacher bringing me to the front of class.
Dana K White (13:30.653)
Yes.
Dana K White (13:36.403)
Yep.
Kathi Lipp (13:48.16)
and making me unpack my backpack. Like I have repressed that, right? Right?
Dana K White (13:52.275)
makes me wanna cry because I, well, and here’s the thing. I understand that they think they’re being helpful, right? Like I understand that. And yet, and yet it backfires because you, I’m assuming, felt very misunderstood, right? Because if the teacher thought that was gonna help you, then they didn’t understand the problem. And it’s not like you loved having a messy backpack, right? I did not like any of my messy spaces.
Kathi Lipp (14:00.3)
Right. And yet.
Kathi Lipp (14:12.119)
Yes.
Kathi Lipp (14:16.766)
Right. No, no.
Dana K White (14:22.001)
but for you to come in and say, you know, this is, that God is a God of order. Well, that doesn’t actually give me anything to go on. Like it doesn’t help at all. Besides the fact, I’m just gonna say real quick that the God is a God of order.
Kathi Lipp (14:30.423)
Right.
Dana K White (14:37.209)
The actual context there of when that phrase is said in the Bible is talking about how to run a meeting at church. Right? And I just want to be clear, like, that’s actually my superpower. I am really good at running meetings. Like, like you could ask me to run a meeting of world leaders. And while I might be a little intimidated, I would absolutely be like, well, yeah.
Kathi Lipp (14:54.03)
Okay.
Kathi Lipp (15:03.619)
Mm-hmm.
Dana K White (15:05.843)
because guess what I’m really good at? I’m good at that. Well, here’s the problem. If I do understand that context and I go, I am really good at this thing and God is a God of order. this is my way to please God, right? I’m off track. I’m off track. And so either way that you go and you hear a lot of, I’ve heard the, you know, the message of this book from the other perspective of like, okay, I couldn’t stop cleaning.
Kathi Lipp (15:20.076)
Right? Yeah.
Dana K White (15:34.125)
And God finally showed me that I never cared about your messy house and so it’s okay to relax and let people see imperfection. And I’m like, that’s truth. However, that is not truth that is helpful for me. Because I would hear that story and I would think, well, I would sure love to have that problem. And so what about for me as the person who felt defective and, you know,…
Kathi Lipp (15:34.125)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (15:43.116)
Yeah. Yes.
Right?
Kathi Lipp (15:52.832)
Yes. Yes.
Dana K White (16:00.879)
had so much shame, like how does this apply to me? And that’s what this book is. It’s like, how do we apply that to this? As I was never looking at that, whether it’s you’re obsessed with a perfection or you’re, you know, feel completely overwhelmed and not able to do it. taking away that shame is the thing that allows us to move forward. I feel like I’ve been rambling. I’m sorry. You can stop me.
Kathi Lipp (16:21.12)
No, you are not rambling. You are spitting truth, my friend. You are spitting truth. And you know, I have a lot of people on this podcast and we can’t always talk this deeply about the concepts because either they have not experienced it like you and I have, or they’re still figuring it. But when we start to see, it’s two sides of the same problem.
when somebody has a house that is so clean that you don’t want to sit down because I just yesterday saw on TikTok a woman who said, yeah, we don’t sit on our couch with outside clothes. And I’m like, what’s outside clothes? And literally it was her husband’s jeans. He looked like he might be an engineer or something like that. So that’s one side of the issue. And then this other where,
Dana K White (17:09.489)
hilarious yeah
Kathi Lipp (17:17.504)
I think what people think is that people who struggle with clutter struggle with this mess are are lazy. And here’s the thing I don’t I have not met anybody with this problem who is lazy. I have met people who struggle they don’t know what the next step is. Maybe they’re on the spectrum with ADHD or they’re depressed like I’ve met a lot of people
who have these auxiliary situations, I’ve yet to meet the lazy person.
Dana K White (17:52.947)
Yeah, and that’s the thing is, when you Google, is cleanliness next to godliness in the Bible, right? There’s all these different blurbs and even if you don’t go and actually read any of them, the vast majority will say no, but the concept is true and then they will mention the Proverbs 31 woman. Well, guess what is not in Proverbs 31? What is never mentioned? Cleanliness, the state of her home,
Kathi Lipp (18:00.994)
Yes.
Kathi Lipp (18:13.486)
Mmm.
Dana K White (18:22.355)
clutter, nothing. Nothing is even mentioned. So I go through the whole Proverbs 31 verse by verse and I’m like, it’s not here, but…
Kathi Lipp (18:28.066)
Yeah. Yes.
Dana, are you telling me that the Proverbs 31 girl is our girl? Like, could she be our girl?
Dana K White (18:38.223)
I’m gonna tell you something. She reminds me of the people who have clutter, right? Like, because she is so focused on other people, she is so industrious, she works hard all the time. I’m like, you know, it’s like when people talk about, well, the Mary and Martha thing and blah, blah. And I’m like, guess who I relate more to? The busy one.
Kathi Lipp (18:44.524)
Yes! Yes!
Kathi Lipp (18:58.341)
mm-hmm. Right, absolutely.
Dana K White (19:01.841)
Right, like I relate more to her. The people I know who don’t have clutter issues tend to be able to relax in those situations a lot more than me. And so I’m like, it’s this thing where there’s assumptions that if your house is messy, it’s because you’re lazy. And then knowing that that’s not true and yet not being able to convince anyone that that’s not true because the state of your home makes everybody, so you know, it’s like this bad thing of like, we have to get in there and we have to speak the truth about this. And like, I really do like.
Kathi Lipp (19:08.983)
Yes!
Dana K White (19:29.849)
She reminds me of the women who I know and possibly myself even in certain situations, but like the women I know who are the go-to woman that everybody depends on, that everybody looks to to be able to organize any event and do anything. And yet you don’t know what her house actually looks like. And so I’m not saying she was messy. I’m just saying that’s not helpful because it’s not actually in there. Like don’t use her as this.
Kathi Lipp (19:32.174)
Mm-hmm.
Kathi Lipp (19:45.792)
Yes.
Dana K White (19:57.085)
thing to aspire to, because anyway, again, shame is not motivating. It’s not helpful.
Kathi Lipp (20:01.228)
I love what you’re saying. And what you’re saying is all these things that we’ve heard before, what is actually helpful in that? That’s the question. And it’s also the question with my clutter oftentimes, what’s actually helpful in here? But with this truth, what is actually helpful? So tell me, what is actually helpful?
Dana K White (20:09.607)
Yes. Yes.
Dana K White (20:14.973)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (20:26.188)
when it comes to motivating me to get decluttered, motivating my listener to get decluttered.
Dana K White (20:26.556)
Yeah.
Dana K White (20:32.125)
So once the shame is gone, then we can actually do stuff, right? Like we can actually do the things. Although I’m a big fan of going ahead and doing the thing and that’s actually what helps the shame be gone, right? Is that. So like I have my no mess decluttering process and we start with trash, right? And that’s one of those things that sometimes, I mean, you’re an author so you know reviews can be wonderful and awful, right? I choose to view bad reviews as good as long as they actually like give some real information. Like if they say,
Kathi Lipp (20:34.798)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (20:42.455)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Kathi Lipp (20:54.286)
Right.
Kathi Lipp (21:01.217)
Guess.
Dana K White (21:01.861)
when people say stuff like, can’t believe people need to be told to start with trash, who has trash? And I’m like, well, guess what? Now the person who read that review knows that this book is actually what they need, right? So yeah, and so like starting with the trash, like this is the stuff that somebody who would never even think to just randomly set down, you know, a string cheese wrapper as opposed to putting it in the trash, like I have no idea that that thing left my hand, right?
Kathi Lipp (21:12.192)
It’s so true.
Kathi Lipp (21:31.36)
Right, absolutely.
Dana K White (21:31.439)
And so we start with the trash, we go through the process. How do we start? We start with the very, very easiest decision-free stuff, right? So like trash is actual trash. It’s not, I’m not gonna convince you that it’s trash. We’re not gonna call your mom and say, would you say this is trash? I’m not gonna analyze what my mom would say if she was here. It’s all just like the actual trash. And if I’m helping you and I’m like, how do they not see that’s trash?
Kathi Lipp (21:51.758)
Right.
Dana K White (22:01.437)
I’m not gonna say anything, because we will get to it over the course of the process, right? But it’s that how do we actually help? We give real actual strategies where I don’t consider, and I don’t know how you view this, but like for me, because I was doing figuring this out in my own home and what was helpful for me and what wasn’t, it is actually not helpful for me as a highly creative person to ask myself if I’ll ever use something. Like, because I can come up with a reason.
Kathi Lipp (22:05.442)
Right?
Kathi Lipp (22:26.029)
Okay.
Kathi Lipp (22:30.574)
goodness, I was just consulting with somebody today and she’s like, I don’t know why I keep this and I said, because your brain can come up with 700 possible uses, none of which you probably will ever do. But you could. Yeah.
Dana K White (22:38.429)
Yes, right, right.
Dana K White (22:43.899)
And if I focus on what, if I could ever use it, then all my mental energy is going toward all these possibilities. And that’s not actually helpful. Like nothing is happening here in this situation. So instead I start with trash and then I ask myself my real defining decluttering question is if I needed this item, where would I look for it first? Right? So there’s no, there’s no like, is it a good thing? That’s all good. Cause why would I have it in my house if it wasn’t right? So, you know, but if I needed this item, where would I look for it first?
Kathi Lipp (22:52.438)
Right. Yes.
Kathi Lipp (23:01.888)
Mmm.
Kathi Lipp (23:07.2)
Yeah, exactly.
Dana K White (23:14.131)
And that’s not where would it be? Like those are two different questions. Because if I already know where it would be, it left in step two, which is dealing with the stuff that I already know what to do with it, right? So by the time I’m asking myself the question, where would I look for this earring? Okay, cause I took them out cause they were banging on my headphone things. Yeah. But if I was asking myself, you know, where would I look first for these earrings? If I needed these earrings.
Kathi Lipp (23:24.098)
Right.
Kathi Lipp (23:29.836)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you.
Dana K White (23:43.119)
It is literally an answer, an instinctual answer. I may not trust my instincts yet, but that’s how I’m gonna learn to trust them, right? If I needed my earrings, where would I look for them first? And it’s wherever I would picture myself going at the beginning of what I assume is gonna be a three hour search for my earrings, right? And so where’s the first, what’s the drawer that I would open? What’s the cabinet I would walk to?
Kathi Lipp (23:45.56)
Mm-hmm.
Kathi Lipp (23:54.509)
Yes.
Kathi Lipp (24:04.065)
Mmm, where’s the first step?
Yeah, right.
Dana K White (24:11.879)
where is the first place where I look? And then I take them there right now. I don’t set them aside to do later or put it in a keep box that I’ll go put everything, because then I would have to go back through these questions again, right? So that’s, even though it feels less efficient to take it there now, that’s actually the transformational step, right? So I’m gonna take it there now and I’m gonna face the reality of that space. Is there any room for these?
Kathi Lipp (24:16.919)
Mm-hmm.
Kathi Lipp (24:23.563)
Yeah, right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kathi Lipp (24:33.848)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (24:38.294)
It’s a great question. Yeah.
Dana K White (24:38.331)
And if there’s not, if there’s not any room for them, then what am I willing to get rid of in order to make the room for these? And if I’m not willing to get rid of anything, then these actually aren’t as important to me and I can let them go, right? But I’m gonna face that reality when I get to that space because I took it there now and I acted on that and I’m gonna base everything in actual facts outside of the things I could come up with.
Kathi Lipp (24:46.573)
Yes.
Kathi Lipp (25:03.757)
Yes.
Dana K White (25:06.639)
Because the creativity, yes, it’s my superpower, it’s also my downfall, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (25:10.99)
It’s your kryptonite. It’s your superpower and your kryptonite and we don’t want to squash the creativity in these beautiful human beings who God created that way, but we also want you to be able to function in your house and
Dana K White (25:28.261)
Exactly. Well, and I hear from people all the time, because I say all the time, I’m like, you can keep anything, but you can’t keep everything. Right. And so, and people are like, okay, well, cause I thought you were going to come in here and you were going to tell me this was dumb and that was bad and this should go and you shouldn’t have this. And so I’m raring to go. Like I’ve got all these reasons, you know, why I should keep all this stuff. And when you tell me, you can keep anything. You just can’t keep everything. Then I’m like,
Kathi Lipp (25:33.654)
Mm-hmm. It’s so true.
Kathi Lipp (25:46.03)
Mm-hmm.
Kathi Lipp (25:51.094)
Right? Mm-hmm.
Dana K White (25:58.885)
Okay, it’s just a shift in your brain that it makes a huge, huge difference.
Kathi Lipp (25:59.981)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (26:04.193)
The way I say it is there’s no morality in keeping or giving that thing away. These things are morally neutral, but what’s gonna serve your life? What’s going to bring you happiness? What’s gonna make you function better? Those are the things that we wanna keep in your house, but we also have to be able to find those things when we need them. And yeah.
Dana K White (26:11.027)
Mm-hmm.
Dana K White (26:26.919)
Right, which is what happens when you put it in the first place where you would look for it. Then you find it, right? Yeah, yeah.
Kathi Lipp (26:30.922)
It’s, which is brilliant. Yes. I love that so much. How has understanding this changed your life? mean, I know you have this big business, you’re on YouTube, you write the book, but like your life and your home, what is the biggest difference for you now that shame is not the go-to feeling with everything going on in your
Dana K White (26:57.651)
Yeah, so the shame went away as I was working on my house, but as I was working my house, I was realizing that Jesus didn’t care about my messy house, right? Like, there, you know, I always say that’s, I’ve kind of earned the right to write a book called Jesus Doesn’t Care About Your Messy House because I’ve written three books about how to keep, get your house under control, you know? So it’s like, I’m not, no, only people who don’t understand and who don’t pay attention can accuse me of saying that it doesn’t matter.
Kathi Lipp (27:09.548)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (27:14.573)
Guess.
Kathi Lipp (27:19.883)
Right?
Dana K White (27:27.217)
Right? I know it matters and I know it matters to the person who’s struggling. Right? What was the question? I don’t know. just… Welcome to my brain.
Kathi Lipp (27:27.714)
Right.
Absolutely. What, Dana, we are so, no wonder our friends keep saying you guys need to hang out together because we are exactly the same person in different fonts. What in your life, now that the shame is not the first thought, like what, what can either you see or the people who live with you see as the biggest difference?
Dana K White (27:41.938)
Right.
Dana K White (27:48.307)
Okay, yeah.
Dana K White (27:58.321)
We can function. So the stuff is not all gone, but it’s, I’ve embraced the reality of my space, right? Like that’s my big thing is like, just embrace the reality of your space. And if I try to keep more stuff than I have space for it, then there’s no hope of my house being under control, right? So the fact that our lives are not inhibited by the state of my home.
Kathi Lipp (27:59.778)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (28:03.959)
Right.
Kathi Lipp (28:07.65)
Nya.
Kathi Lipp (28:11.682)
Mm.
Kathi Lipp (28:15.757)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (28:20.59)
Hmm
Yes.
Dana K White (28:23.481)
That is the thing, like, cause you know, you said I write books, I do YouTube. That’s the kind of stuff I like doing. I thought when I started all this, that my goal was to have like a, of course, Pinterest didn’t exist, but you know, like a magazine picture home. Like I just assumed that’s what I want. I love those images. And yet in reality, what I really wanted to do was not be held back by my house. I wanted to be able to be the person who can
Kathi Lipp (28:28.397)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (28:36.428)
Right. Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (28:48.045)
Yeah.
Dana K White (28:52.345)
volunteer at the actual last moment to host something in my home because somebody else’s power went out and there was a plan, you know, for the prom girls to get ready there. And I’m like, you can do it at my house. You know, like, that is something I never could do before, but it was the person I wanted to be. I wanted to be that kind of mom who was like, sure, yes, bring them bring everybody over here. And yet my house was in a state where I couldn’t do that. And to have people over was a two week ordeal.
Kathi Lipp (29:00.866)
Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (29:04.685)
Right?
Dana K White (29:22.175)
where I would shove everything into the room, the door would lock, and then I would actually clean because I couldn’t have, you know, I wasn’t able to clean with all the clutter everywhere. So yeah, just, lets me be who I wanna be.
Kathi Lipp (29:31.478)
Yeah. You know, and it’s so interesting because yeah, people push back on, you know, my ideas about decluttering all the time. But 20 years ago, I could not have been that person. And last week we had some clients show up and they said, we were so dumb. We booked our hotel room an hour and a half in the opposite direction. Like, well, just spend the night. And they’re like, what? I’m like, yeah, just spend the night. We’re fine. And like,
It didn’t until later that night. I didn’t realize the transformation and the girls coming over and getting ready for prom like to other people That would just be a Tuesday, but for us it says our whole lives have changed and It’s possible. That’s what I want people to hear One Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house. I love the the title of your book and guys we’ll have a link to that
Dana K White (30:17.405)
Exactly, Yeah.
Kathi Lipp (30:30.402)
where you can get it at, you know, Amazon or wherever you love to buy books. But also the thing I want you to hear from what Dana has said, what I am saying is this shame free life is possible. You can be the person that invites people into your home. You can be the person who has a last minute overnight guest. You can be the person who says I can volunteer for that.
because I’m not abandoning my home, my home functions, and that makes the rest of my life possible. And it’s how Jesus wants us to live. It’s not about the state of your home, it’s about how you can function in the world with the home you have. And Dana, I love this so much. I traditionally do not read other decluttering books because I…
Dana K White (31:24.359)
Me neither.
Kathi Lipp (31:25.366)
I don’t want to be accused of stealing Dana Kay or Fly Lady or anything like that. But this one I’m going to read because I came in with the questions about how are you going to support this thesis? And I love what you said here because there’s such freedom and it’s such practical freedom too. I love that so much. Dana, thank you so much for being here today.
Dana K White (31:27.591)
I am the exact same way, yes, yep.
Okay, thank you.
Dana K White (31:49.021)
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on and I’m just so honored and excited that we finally got to meet.
Kathi Lipp (31:54.342)
I love it. It’s the beginning of a beautiful clutter free relationship. And I love that so much with a little bit of sass, a little bit of mess, because you know what? That’s okay. That’s how I function best. And I know that’s how you function best too. We’re never going to be that Pinterest Martha Stewart. And you know what? God didn’t want us to be that way. And that’s why we are who we are. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the clutter free life.
Dana K White (31:58.674)
Ha ha!
Dana K White (32:06.428)
Yeah.
Dana K White (32:14.29)
No.
Kathi Lipp (32:24.14)
You’ve always wanted to live.
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