629 How to Incorporate Vintage Finds Without the Clutter

What are some creative ways you display vintage collections without overwhelming a space?

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Meet Our Guest

Hilary Prall

Hilary Prall is the creative mind behind Hilary Prall Blog, an online destination for vibrant, eclectic interior design. Hilary’s passion is creating unique, beautiful spaces that work for real-life budgets. Through her website and digital channels, she shares her colorful home design, DIY ideas, and a penchant for repurposing thrifted items with inspo-seekers all over.

Hilary’s design brightens the feeds of almost 40k fans on Instagram and Facebook. She has been featured regularly on Des Moines NBC affiliate WHO-TV, home retailer blogs, and several online magazines. She offers an array of affordable digital products that provide design help with the click of a mouse.

Before starting Hilary Prall Blog in 2015, Hilary spent years at a job that wasn’t her true calling. That experience, though, is what drives her enthusiasm for encouraging others to pursue their dreams and supporting other entrepreneurs.

A life that blends work, creative interests, and family provides ongoing inspiration as Hilary and husband Jason (with support from Cooper the corgi and Sheldon + Howard the cats) turn the transformation of their builder-grade ranch home into endless sources of design ideas. When she’s not tinkering at home, the next best bets are thrifting, road-tripping, trying a locally-owned restaurant, or enjoying the outdoors.

Visit her at www.hilaryprall.com.

Transcript

Kathi (00:01.381)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter -Free Academy, where our heart is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And we are back. If you didn’t get to hear last week’s episode with designer Hilary Prall,

and content creator, and she’s just fabulous, you guys. You just need to go check her out. Go take a listen to that, because I think that that was a really rich and interesting conversation. Hilary is the daughter of a hoarder and has had to walk through that journey. And as many of you know, both Tonya and I have walked through that journey as well. And to get a little bit of an idea of what you can and cannot do in that journey.

Hilary Prall (00:32.557)

You

Kathi (01:00.549)

But today I want to tap into the other side of Hilary’s life and that is about the design side and You know Hilary I’m sure you said that you’re still going through some of your mom’s things like you’re still working on that situation in your life and That’s been kind of exhausting and I thought it was such an interesting point when we are surrounded by so much clutter

whether it’s ours or somebody else’s, it really can deplete you artistically, creatively, emotionally. Is that what you’ve been going through the past couple of years?

Hilary Prall (01:44.907)

Yeah, I think I just, I mean, aside from just, you know, the suddenness of losing my mom, but then knowing that I was gonna have to deal with all of this stuff. And it feels very lonely. I mean, people will offer to help you, but they have no idea. And we have had very helpful people in it. The sort of…

part of this is that my mom had gotten remarried and we love him and are very thankful to have him in our lives. We’re his only family. He’s our only family at this point. But it’s his house. And so, you know, whereas most people we would have sorted through everything and then had an auction or an estate sale, we have had to work around him and schlepping it and, you know,

Kathi (02:26.853)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hilary Prall (02:38.794)

my husband likes to be very efficient and not touch things three times or four times. And it was, you know, and we’ve sort of had to deal with him saying, it’s totally fine. And he has been very patient, but then he would get a wild hair and like clear out a whole section of stuff and shove it in a closet. And so it’s like, so now I have to re go through that closet. So just kind of, you know, that part of, and then she lived an hour away. So just a lot of things that made.

Kathi (02:42.853)

Right.

Kathi (03:00.261)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (03:07.977)

made it all just a little bit harder. It’s like, you know, couldn’t something be a little easier? So we have the bulk of it done now. The other thing is we had to go through every box because it was just, she did try to get organized several times. And so there would be stuff mixed in that shouldn’t have been and whatever. So we have the bulk of it done to the point that the rest can easily be.

Kathi (03:13.797)

Right.

Kathi (03:20.933)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (03:33.161)

donated or taken to auction in just one of our vehicles. We had to rent a moving truck for the big auction. And then she just had a lot of jewelry. So I have taken, I think, three loads now to a local jewelry store to have to sell the metal. She had a lot of costume, but also, I mean, it’s worth money, the gold. So I probably have one.

Kathi (03:39.429)

Yeah.

Kathi (03:44.549)

Hmm.

Kathi (03:52.869)

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Hilary Prall (04:00.392)

maybe one more, two more loads to take of that. So just the time that it takes. So it takes all your free time. And so, you know, I would do whatever work I could during the week that I felt like doing for myself, for my own business, keeping our house running. And then, you know, we really tried on the weekends to get down there and do some work. So.

Kathi (04:08.677)

Yeah.

Kathi (04:15.973)

Yeah.

Kathi (04:23.205)

Hilary, let me ask you a question before we dive into the design and decorating side of things. I was just listening to a great person on TikTok whose mother suddenly passed away. And she said she was giving advice for any parents out there about wills and estates and trusts and things like that. It was great, really terrific advice. I would love to hear from you as somebody who is going through the thick of it.

What would your top piece of advice be for somebody like your mom? Like, is there a list she could have left? What could she have done to make this a little bit easier? We know she wasn’t gonna get herself organized, but is there something she could have done? And then what would be your top piece of advice for somebody who’s in your situation, who’s going into a hoarder’s house? Who, what?

Hilary Prall (05:10.631)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (05:20.677)

I would love those two pieces of advice.

Hilary Prall (05:24.966)

So I think both pieces of advice can work for both parties. So number one, we’ve talked about this a whole bunch. Thankfully, my mom left us some money to work with. There was money in the estate, but no matter what you’re doing to get rid of stuff, it costs money. Dumpsters cost money. You can take stuff to the Goodwill or whatever, but when you’re talking about a hoarder’s house,

Kathi (05:29.029)

Okay.

Kathi (05:37.765)

Okay.

Hilary Prall (05:52.485)

And I know people think about hoarders as being dirty. My mom wasn’t like that. I think she could have gone down that road had she not gotten remarried. It was just such tremendous volumes of stuff. Some of it, you know, there was mold involved and things like that. But you have to somehow get it to wherever it’s going. And you can’t. It’s not just going to be a, you know, a few loads to goodwill. Number one, they don’t want all that stuff in one trip.

Kathi (05:52.581)

Yeah.

Kathi (05:57.893)

Yeah.

Kathi (06:20.357)

Right.

Hilary Prall (06:21.509)

but you have to somehow get rid of it. Thankfully we lived close enough that it was reasonable, but if you lived out of state, I don’t know what people would do if you’re not close. I mean, so have some money set aside, I guess. If you are not the parent and you’re the person who you know you’re gonna have to deal with this, I would start maybe talking to figure out.

Kathi (06:30.021)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (06:37.029)

Yes.

Hilary Prall (06:47.492)

Where’s my local auction? Who does the state sales? Now, again, other situations, you might be able to have someone come in and do the auction there or whatever. And a lot of times with hoarders, if it’s bad, the stuff’s not salvageable. So you could call, like you can hire 1 -800 -GOT -JUNK, but maybe just come up with a game plan of some sort of how you are gonna liquidate it because it is a lot and it’s a lot of work and it’s, you know,

Kathi (07:01.125)

Right. Yes.

Kathi (07:14.373)

Mmm.

Hilary Prall (07:17.156)

Again, you don’t want to, I don’t like to ask for help. That’s my personality, but at some point we just needed some bodies to help us get stuff upstairs and not completely break our bodies and burn out. So just how you’re gonna deal with it, the finances, what that looks like. We’ve spent a lot of money just trying to get rid of stuff, which seems crazy.

Kathi (07:21.893)

Yeah.

Kathi (07:30.629)

Yeah.

Kathi (07:42.949)

It does.

Hilary Prall (07:44.611)

The other thing that I think would be helpful, luckily, like I have said, I love old stuff. I have always loved old stuff. A lot of the stuff I have now acquired that was family, I looked at at my grandma’s house when she had it. And so I would just pour through stuff. So I knew what was a lot of family stuff. My sister would have had no idea, because she doesn’t care about that stuff. I wish I would have asked or,

Kathi (07:59.973)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (08:13.282)

enforced a little bit more with my mom, please write down the history of this or who did this belong to. Because at a certain point, not that it matters, you know, like 50 years from now, I’m not going to care if my nieces keep everything that was mine. And I don’t think that our ancestors think that you should. But it is important to you know, if something’s really important or has provenance, you should

Kathi (08:18.085)

Hmm, yeah.

Kathi (08:30.597)

Right.

Kathi (08:34.405)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (08:40.546)

want to know those stories. And I did know some of it, but I wish either my mom had done more or I had asked more about it because she held on to those things so tightly that we didn’t know a lot of the stories behind them. There are things that I remember from my childhood, even from our own house that I wanted to hold on to, but I just wish I knew a little bit more of the history behind some of the stuff.

Kathi (09:02.565)

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, my mom is putting Post -it notes under things. And just to say a little bit about where she got that milk glass or whatever the thing is. And like, she is, you know, for a long time when I would go visit her, she would say, don’t throw away the milk glass. You can sell it, or you can keep it, but don’t throw it away. And I’m like, okay, mom.

Hilary Prall (09:10.241)

Okay, yeah.

Hilary Prall (09:15.905)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (09:27.36)

Yep. Yep.

Kathi (09:28.869)

I’m learning about milk glass. I promise but you know, I just want to hear I want I want everybody who is in our clutter free Listening audience to hear what Hilary has said that Your mom who I’m sure was a lovely but complicated person Left you with a task that has left you feeling alone and

Hilary Prall (09:31.904)

Yes.

Kathi (09:58.341)

I don’t think any of us would wish that upon our children. And so to hear what Hilary is saying, if there are things that you can do right now, if there are things you can get rid of right now, if there are the stories that you can tell about those items so that your child or whomever is, your nieces, your nephews, your grandkids, whomever it is, they don’t.

End up feeling alone. I think that would be list. That would be a great service that you have provided here Hilary Okay, I want to talk about more fun things. Let’s talk about fun Okay So I want you love vintage. I think a lot of our cluttery people do I think one of the things and when I say cluttery people I count myself as as one of those people so i’m not pointing any finger. Well, if i’m pointing fingers i’m pointing them back at me but

Hilary Prall (10:29.211)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (10:56.517)

I think we, a lot of cluttery people have a real deep appreciation for vintage. And that’s why it is hard for us to get rid of things. So how do you incorporate your love for vintage into your designs in a way that promotes a healthy clutter -free living space? Because it can be really easy to do too much or keep things just because they were old. But how do you incorporate it into a way,

that it’s not just lovable, but livable.

Hilary Prall (11:30.014)

I will say we don’t have children, so it makes it a lot easier. I think if you have little kids running around, you’re not gonna have all of this stuff. That’s just how it is. We do have three active pets, so I have to be okay if things get broken or whatever. I have a few things even right now that…

Kathi (11:32.997)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (11:38.725)

Right.

Kathi (11:46.437)

Yes.

Hilary Prall (11:53.79)

I know I need to change out just because of how we live and I’m tired of messing with it. I think that’s part of it is if you if it’s constantly bringing you angst or whatever, then reevaluate it. You know, I really try to keep our bedroom very calm, very clutter free. And sometimes it’s just the addition of one extra thing that can just that’s it. I need to I need to clear the decks. So.

Kathi (12:21.957)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (12:23.101)

I think for me, I don’t ever want people to feel like they have to be overly careful. Last week, we have a cleaning lady that comes every couple of weeks and she does a great job considering how much nonsense I have. And so just very absentmindedly, she was here and I was out talking while she was working and I was just going through and fluffing my stuff because I’m also a little OCD.

Kathi (12:28.741)

Hmm.

Kathi (12:32.773)

Yeah.

Kathi (12:37.797)

Hahaha!

Hilary Prall (12:50.076)

And she said, I’m sorry. She said, I can’t ever remember how your stuff goes back. I said, do not worry about that. That’s on me. That is for me to go through and be fidgety about. So I think just manage your expectations. I mean, do you want people to feel comfortable in your house? Then, you know, they have to be able to live with your stuff. Plenty of people. I have an Instagram friend that has the most incredible home.

Kathi (13:10.917)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (13:18.587)

and I was lucky enough to go and visit it and it is museum worthy. But also I think it’d be really hard to add anybody else to that house. So I think it does have to depend on what your, and he would say that, so I think it’s okay. But you have to be okay with whatever your situation is and what it can accommodate, I guess.

Kathi (13:23.365)

Hmm.

Kathi (13:32.357)

Mm -hmm. Yes.

Kathi (13:42.117)

I love that it’s being realistic about how you live so you can be realistic about how you design, how you bring things in and living with what you love. Guys, we’re gonna take a quick break and then when we come back, I wanna talk to Hilary about what advice she would give to somebody that she was helping with designs who struggles with clutter. We’re gonna take a quick break and then we’ll come back with that.

Hilary Prall (13:47.098)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:12.293)

Okay friends, we are back and Hilary knows our cluttery hearts. She knows our cluttery spaces. And so if you were working with a client, what advice would you give to somebody who tends towards clutter? Do you have any really practical ideas or solutions or maybe some inspiration for them?

Hilary Prall (14:27.962)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (14:33.689)

I think honestly the first thing is clear the decks a little bit. Take everything out if you’re redoing a space. If you’re unsure about something, put it in a tub and if you don’t care about it a month from now, three months from now, it can move on. It can find somewhere else to live. I also think same with clothing. If you’re tired of wearing something but you hold on to it because, I might use that, well, when you’re ready to use it,

maybe just go buy something new. Say I over the last three years have lost over 70 pounds. So I don’t need to hold on to those old clothes because I’m gonna buy something new. Life is very, very short. So I don’t think that you need to hold on to every last detail of everything. Keep the sentimental pieces. Part of…

Kathi (15:04.869)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (15:11.173)

Wow.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Hilary Prall (15:29.369)

Part of going through my mom’s stuff was I’ve really sifted through. So I’ve, you’ve touched every single thing. And I have an entire closet downstairs plus some overflow of family things that I’ve brought home. My sister needs to come through and go through them. And then the rest of it, I’m gonna pick the things that I really care about and the rest I’m gonna try to reach out to the historical society of where my grandma’s from and, you know, kind of liquidate some stuff that way. But, cause I…

Kathi (15:35.685)

Mmm.

Kathi (15:54.181)

yeah.

Hilary Prall (15:57.816)

They’re important things, but also I don’t need to keep them. So not everything has to be kept. Not everything in my house should be important to my nieces and nephews down the road. You know, it’s just not everything is sentimental.

Kathi (16:03.109)

Right.

Kathi (16:15.845)

Yes, and so I love that thought that yes, this is important history, but my house is not a museum. And, you know, we can take pictures. You’ve given me two ideas that I’ve never really considered auction houses and your grandmother’s local historical society. You know, is this something? Yeah. Tell me more about that.

Hilary Prall (16:38.839)

Yeah, they’re actually, yeah. So they’re, well, and this is just because I grew up going to this. There are a couple of, I think, there are always historical societies. So, I mean, they’re always looking for things. They want to have curated, you know, whatever. There’s a big event that we would go to every year. And I can specifically remember there is a whole little room or house devoted to scary old dolls, which I don’t want.

Kathi (16:47.173)

Yeah.

Kathi (17:07.173)

Mm -hmm, right.

Hilary Prall (17:07.958)

But I have two of my grandmas and I have her little baby buggy and that would be a great thing to give them. And, you know, my grandpa was a farmer down there and I mean, they, they want that stuff. They want ephemera and you know, all the things that for all intents and purposes, I will never really look at again, but I have all of this stuff. So unless I want to display it or really feel like I’m going to look at it again, I just, I don’t need that heaviness. But.

Kathi (17:19.205)

Yes.

Kathi (17:27.557)

Right.

Hilary Prall (17:37.973)

I didn’t want to make a rash decision while I was going through things and just pitch it. Because I did get rid of a few things that I kind of am like, shoot. But also, I’m not gonna let that, yeah.

Kathi (17:40.293)

Yeah.

Kathi (17:47.909)

Mm hmm. Well, that’s gonna happen with the amount of stuff you had to deal with. You’re gonna get you’re gonna get rid of a few things that, you know, maybe but we can’t let that keep us from getting rid of the things that are going to stop us from living. And, you know, when we bought this house, and you don’t know anything about my story, but we bought a house in the middle of the woods, like, and the people we bought it from,

Hilary Prall (17:54.293)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (18:06.196)

No.

Hilary Prall (18:14.58)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (18:17.893)

they left a lot of their stuff here, including an antique water stand that we love and they loved it, but they had no place for it. Their kids had no place for it. And so the agreement we left with was if I ever decide to get rid of it, I call them. And if they don’t want it, then it’s up to me to get rid of it. And I was fine with that. And another thing that they…

Hilary Prall (18:29.236)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (18:36.148)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (18:45.221)

They had this giant list of all these things that they were leaving with us, but one thing they were not leaving was an IKEA table. And we’re like, well, that’s odd. You left all this other stuff. Why are you taking the IKEA table? Come to find out this IKEA table was from the original IKEA in… Yes, it was the IKEA in Europe. And it was bought, I think, either in the 40s or 50s and shipped to the United States.

Hilary Prall (18:54.099)

Hilary Prall (19:04.339)

IKEA.

Hilary Prall (19:11.795)

Okay.

Kathi (19:14.085)

And so that’s a part of their family history. And we love that story so much, and they still sell that brand of table at IKEA. We bought that, we bought the 2019 version of it. And you can still have the story without having the object. And to be able to carry that on is great. When do you know that your passion,

Hilary Prall (19:22.322)

Okay, yeah. that’s awesome.

Hilary Prall (19:29.778)

Yeah, yeah.

Hilary Prall (19:35.09)

Absolutely.

Kathi (19:42.757)

for board games or paint by numbers has gotten out of control. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, guys, she mentioned these in the last episode. But how do you know when it’s enough?

Hilary Prall (19:55.634)

Well, I have stipulations so for the the paint by numbers I don’t want although I just bought one that doesn’t doesn’t align with this but it’s it’s so different that it’s okay, but I Don’t really like people in them. I don’t like eyes So they have to sort of fit my colors and I want them to be pretty well done You know the board games I don’t

Kathi (20:05.577)

We won’t judge you.

Kathi (20:13.125)

Mmm.

Okay.

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (20:22.417)

I have shelves that I could stack them on, but part of the display is that I’ve hung a lot of them on the wall as display. So I don’t know, is there an end to something? I would say as long as it’s not stressing you out, you’re not putting yourself in financial distress, you can still walk in your house, I suppose it’s okay.

Kathi (20:28.261)

yes.

Kathi (20:41.253)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (20:44.625)

But if you can no longer enjoy your stuff, that is for me genuinely it. I wanna look at it. I wanna look at it. I wanna enjoy it. I love my stuff, but I don’t wanna have to put it in a tote and think about it randomly. So for me, I don’t wanna store stuff. I want it out and about. And as far as like my family stuff, one thing I did wanna say is just because my mom had it or my grandma had it,

Kathi (20:44.805)

Yeah.

Kathi (20:55.461)

Yeah.

Kathi (21:00.677)

Right, right.

Hilary Prall (21:14.096)

I want to collect my own stuff. I have a whole life ahead of me. I very easily from the loss that has happened in my life could easily think, gosh, I don’t have a life left. But I have a lot of years left hopefully and I have a lot of collecting to do. So I want to have room to collect my own things. I don’t want to have to just have my mom’s stuff.

Kathi (21:16.389)

Right. Yes.

Kathi (21:28.997)

Guess.

Kathi (21:38.021)

I love that. And you said you want to enjoy your stuff, but you also want to enjoy your space. And I think that’s the perfect balance for what we’re talking about. To be able to enjoy your stuff and be able to put your, enjoy your space and to have some guidelines. I love your guidelines for your paint by numbers. It can’t have people, it can’t have I, and you said, but that you said there was an exception to that that you just bought.

Hilary Prall (21:44.431)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (21:48.399)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (21:54.639)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (21:59.759)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (22:03.695)

Yeah.

Kathi (22:04.709)

but you must have loved it so much that you were willing to break your own rule. And I think that’s the reason we have rules and guidelines to keep us kind of contained. But then we know when something is outside of that and that’s really special. Hilary, you’ve given us so much to think about. Where would you like people most to seek you out? Is it through your website, through Instagram? Where should people go find you?

Hilary Prall (22:09.295)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (22:14.415)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (22:29.807)

Instagram first, I hang out there a lot. I’m in stories a lot there, that’s what I love. I love to be able to connect with people that way. So I would say definitely Instagram. From there you can find me anywhere, but also if they go to my website, I have a pop -up to join my email list. I email once a week. I really try to share something there that I’m not sharing anywhere else, so it’s definitely bonus material, bonus content. And…

Kathi (22:33.797)

Yeah. Okay.

Kathi (22:42.181)

Okay.

Kathi (22:51.973)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (22:58.766)

Yeah, I just really, as I have walked through this, the people who have reached out to me saying, I had to go through this, I’m going through this, I’m going to have to go through this, you know, and I think just the self -realization that we can all kind of struggle with it. I’ve had a few messages that were kind of rude, you know, saying this is a mental illness, you know, but I understand. I 100 % understand and I watched my mom struggle with it.

Kathi (23:10.757)

Yeah.

Kathi (23:23.589)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hilary Prall (23:27.629)

overtly for 20 years. You know, so I would be the last person to judge anybody about it, but it would be wonderful if people could seek the help that they, that I’m assuming is out there. I know people specialize in it, but also, you know, if you’re going through it with a family member, I know that, you know, it genuinely is like drugs or alcohol. I mean, I would try to explain that to my husband. It was really hard for him to understand it.

Kathi (23:29.893)

Yeah.

Kathi (23:40.133)

Right.

Kathi (23:50.149)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (23:54.349)

And you know, I know people sometimes do have to just walk away from a situation. Luckily, I didn’t have to do that with my mom, but you have to have some boundaries and anyway, so.

Kathi (24:01.445)

Yeah.

100 % yeah, you know, lots of times with hoarders, they want you to hold on to their stuff. They want you to be a part of it. And just because one person suffers from hoarding doesn’t mean there aren’t other sufferers surrounding them. And, you know, can we acknowledge both as victims? I think that that’s a really important thing that you’re saying here. There’s more than one victim.

Hilary Prall (24:22.123)

Yes, absolutely.

Hilary Prall (24:30.123)

Absolutely.

Kathi (24:33.701)

Hilary, I love the compassion you have for your mom while also speaking the truth. Guys, she’s got tears in her eyes and as the fellow daughter of a hoarder, I feel those tears. I’m further removed than she is. She’s in the thick of it right now. So I wanna say an extra thank you for being here and sharing your story with us. Thank you so much. Okay.

Hilary Prall (24:58.475)

Absolutely, yeah. Thanks.

Kathi (25:01.637)

Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter free life you’ve always wanted to live.

#647 The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

647 – The Shame-Free Path to Conquering ClutterHey friends! Have you ever felt so ashamed of your home that you would rather hide than invite anyone over? In this powerful episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into the emotional...

#646 Why Your House Won’t Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter Cycle

646 – Why Your House Won't Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter CycleHey there, friend! You know that feeling when you've spent an entire weekend decluttering, only to find your house looking exactly the same three weeks later? You are definitely not alone! In...

#645 Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free Life

645 – Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free LifeHey there, friends! Have you ever struggled with an overwhelming burden of household clutter? There is hope! In this episode of the Clutter Free Academy podcast, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive...

www.instagram.com/hilaryprall

#628 How to Curate Your Life: The Way to Love Things Without Drowning in Them

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jul 30, 2024 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Heart, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Fear, Freedom, Home, Mental Load, Podcast | 0 comments

Listen Now

628 How to Curate Your Life:

The Way to Love Things Without Drowning in Them

Hey there, friends! Have you ever struggled with finding the balance between loving vintage and clutter?

In this enlightening episode of Clutter Free Academy, host Kathi Lipp welcomes designer and content creator Hilary Prall. Kathi and Hilary explore the challenges of breaking free from generational clutter habits and finding a balance between loving vintage items and maintaining an organized home. As the daughter of a hoarder, Hilary offers valuable insights on curating spaces, letting go of sentimental items, and developing strategies to resist hoarding tendencies.

Listeners will discover:

How to set clear goals
How to understand personal limits when it comes to collecting
The importance of displaying and enjoying items rather than storing them away

This episode offers a unique perspective on the intersection of design, organization, and personal growth, making it a must-listen for anyone struggling with clutter or seeking to create a more intentional living space.

Click here to be notified when Part 2 of this interview with Hilary Prall is released.

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Preorder your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here. Preorder offer ends October 8, 2024.

Links Mentioned:

www.hilaryprall.com

www.hilaryprall.com/blog

Clutter Free Resources:

Learn more about Clutter Free for Life

How do you balance your love for vintage items with maintaining a clutter-free space?

Share in the comments!

Let’s stay connected

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Meet Our Guest

Hilary Prall

Hilary Prall is the creative mind behind Hilary Prall Blog, an online destination for vibrant, eclectic interior design. Hilary’s passion is creating unique, beautiful spaces that work for real-life budgets. Through her website and digital channels, she shares her colorful home design, DIY ideas, and a penchant for repurposing thrifted items with inspo-seekers all over.

Hilary’s design brightens the feeds of almost 40k fans on Instagram and Facebook. She has been featured regularly on Des Moines NBC affiliate WHO-TV, home retailer blogs, and several online magazines. She offers an array of affordable digital products that provide design help with the click of a mouse.

Before starting Hilary Prall Blog in 2015, Hilary spent years at a job that wasn’t her true calling. That experience, though, is what drives her enthusiasm for encouraging others to pursue their dreams and supporting other entrepreneurs.

A life that blends work, creative interests, and family provides ongoing inspiration as Hilary and husband Jason (with support from Cooper the corgi and Sheldon + Howard the cats) turn the transformation of their builder-grade ranch home into endless sources of design ideas. When she’s not tinkering at home, the next best bets are thrifting, road-tripping, trying a locally-owned restaurant, or enjoying the outdoors.

Visit her at www.hilaryprall.com.

Transcript

Kathi (00:01.669)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy where our heart is to help you live with less clutter and more life. And today, I think this is gonna be a turning point episode for some of you. If you live with a hoarder,

If you grew up with a hoarder, if you have a hoarder in your extended family, today’s episode is for you. As many of you know, I grew up with a hoarder. Tanya, who is our most frequent co -host on here, also grew up with a hoarder. And I’ve got a new friend, guys. This is Hilary Prall. She is the creative mind behind Hilary Prall Vlog. It’s an online play. By the way, the website is gorgeous.

She had it’s it’s a vibrant like eclectic vibe I don’t even know how else to put it and if you guys are not seeing if you’re if you’re not watching this you’re just hearing this if You could just see Hillary’s background, you’d know what I was talking about, but we’re gonna put all the links in there She has featured regularly on the Des Moines NBC affiliate who TV She she’s all over the place on home retail block. So like I

Guys, she’s a designer. She’s got incredible style, but she has this part of her story that we’re going to dive deep into today. Hillary, welcome to the podcast.

Hilary Prall (01:38.988)

Hello, thank you for having me.

Kathi (01:41.125)

Well, I’m so excited because to Neil who is on my team introduced us and she she’s like you have to have Hillary on your podcast and I said say less and then I started to dig into what you’re all about. So tell us tell us what you’re about your day job. Let’s just start there. What’s your day job?

Hilary Prall (01:58.603)

Okay, yeah. My day job is basically content creation, digital content creation. And I feel like sort of part of where I am with my business ties into what we’ll talk about today with my mom, Justin. Things have sort of come to a little bit of a stall over the last couple of years working through things with my mom’s estate. But looking really forward to getting back on track of…

creating content and building a brand of business. I started out, I worked in retail for 20 years and I loved that, but it was nothing that I intended to do for so long. And I got started working with real estate agents and just local people doing some decorating and staging. Finally left my nine to five and pursued that full time.

Kathi (02:34.341)

you

Kathi (02:38.565)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (02:53.386)

as well as creating content online. And a couple of years ago, I thought, I can’t do both of these things to their fullest capacity. That’s not my personality. Like we talked about to Neil being able to do all the things. I am not able to do all the things. So I sort of pulled back from the decorating end and I could always go back to that. Not that I think that I will, but I wanted to see if I could harness what the internet had to offer for creating content, encouraging people.

Kathi (02:59.621)

Right?

Kathi (03:06.437)

Hehehe.

Kathi (03:19.589)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (03:22.569)

inspiring them. That’s truly what I enjoy doing. I think we all have so many shared experiences that it’s hard to connect sometimes with the right people and find people who are like us, who share our stories. And so that is a big part of what I do in my space. I am very real. I do share all the good things and all the bad things. So.

Kathi (03:36.164)

Yeah.

Kathi (03:46.757)

Yeah, I started following her on Instagram and she’s a good follow you guys. She really is very down to earth and realistic but also inspirational which is kind of a hard line to walk but this is why I really wanted to talk to you was because I think you have the life that many of us who feel like we’re drowning in clutter. Your life online, while it looks real, it also looks beautiful.

Hilary Prall (03:51.049)

Hehehe.

Kathi (04:16.549)

And I think that’s what we want, but so many of us have the story of either we were raised by a hoarder or maybe we have those tendencies ourselves and we just feel like there is no hope for us. And when I heard about your journey with your mom, I wanted to dig a little deeper. So your mom would be considered a hoarder?

Hilary Prall (04:41.256)

Yes, I think for all intents and purposes she would. I mean, it’s not, I don’t know the legal definition of what a hoarder is. So some, she, I would say she always had the tendency. She grew up in a family that she never felt like they had anything nice. You know, her parents were raised during the depression. So, you know, you definitely may do and there’s nothing wrong with that. But along with that came some really,

Kathi (04:46.053)

Right.

Kathi (04:54.437)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (05:02.629)

Yeah.

Right.

Hilary Prall (05:09.671)

tough things as well. And I know that even people from that generation took that and just ran with it to the nth degree. So I think, I think, you know, even early in my parents’ marriage, they didn’t have the finances probably that she would have wanted. And so she couldn’t buy everything that she wanted. And my dad helped her to keep that in check to some degree. But when he passed away in 2004, it was just like, it,

Kathi (05:30.245)

Right?

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (05:39.622)

I just felt like it just happened instantly, but it definitely had different waves of how it happened. It looked like her going to Target and shopping the clearance end caps and then, you know, whatever was on clearance, it was always, it wasn’t having something nice. It wasn’t like she went and bought one diamond ring. It was, you know, a hundred junky things.

Kathi (05:52.005)

Right.

Kathi (06:04.933)

Right.

Hilary Prall (06:05.829)

it was just to fill that void. She got really into home shopping network. I think just finding that connection with somebody. And then she got into thrifting, which we had grown up going to garage sales, but we didn’t really go to the thrift store. That wasn’t something that was like normal to us, but she really got into that Facebook marketplace, you know, whatever it was, wherever she could get a deal and she would drag stuff home. So,

Kathi (06:10.245)

Hmm.

Kathi (06:17.701)

wow.

Kathi (06:22.341)

Yeah.

Kathi (06:31.429)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (06:34.949)

The first sort of round of it was she ended up selling our childhood home to my sister and my brother -in -law on contract. So she had to clear out to move and then she moved into a townhouse and…

Part of, she filled it, obviously. But also during that time she was doing a lot of hiding. So she had a couple of relationships that she wasn’t totally honest with us about and was just really in hiding. I can count on two hands the number of times I was in that house. And every time I went there it was fuller and fuller and…

Kathi (06:55.493)

Yeah.

Kathi (07:05.637)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi (07:12.261)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (07:18.34)

you know, there would be things like my wanted my childhood bedroom set and she couldn’t let go of that. That was hers. And just, I mean, she so I mean, it definitely was. I think that is a part of being a hoarder is everything is yours. You’re just gripping onto it so tightly. So she she quite filled that house and it was just a really big source of contention. From there, she did meet someone and.

Kathi (07:25.765)

Hmm.

Kathi (07:31.813)

Yeah. Right.

Hilary Prall (07:46.883)

was getting remarried in 2013 and we’re very happy and we were very honest with him. This is, you’re getting yourself into something here, but I don’t think you couldn’t, unless you’ve seen it or been involved in it, you can’t wrap your head around it. So we were able to get her moved from that house finally. She kept the house even after she got married for a couple of years, but then it was like, this is silly.

Kathi (07:55.557)

Right.

Kathi (08:00.261)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi (08:13.125)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (08:13.155)

But that meant she filled two storage units. She filled his giant Morton building. She, you know, started filling his basement and then just continued. So it was a big issue within their marriage as well.

Kathi (08:27.877)

So first of all, it is just so heartbreaking because hoarders and it does, I mean, again, I’m not a clinical psychologist, but it does sound like she has the classic symptoms of hoarding. Mom, why are you keeping this? And there’s not really a good explanation, but to take it from her would be devastating.

Hilary Prall (08:41.953)

absolutely.

Hilary Prall (08:53.633)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (08:53.989)

and the buying things that they don’t need and the hiding and the anger at anybody trying to change anything or judge anything. And so it does sound like she has some of the classic hallmarks of hoarding. And there’s not a lot that family can do. There just isn’t. So part of my question is,

Hilary Prall (09:18.177)

No.

Kathi (09:23.877)

Why do you think that you did not go in the same direction? Why do you think or did you did you like part of my story is my dad was a hoarder and I started to hang on to too much stuff. And then I got to a point where it’s like, no, I can’t live like this. I can’t be, you know, for me, it was clutter. It wasn’t hoarding, but I could definitely see the tendencies in my life. So where did you fall on that scale?

Hilary Prall (09:28.992)

Hmm.

Hilary Prall (09:37.248)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (09:51.072)

Sure, I mean I definitely have the tendencies. I mean, you know, and I love vintage, I love old things. So it’s been difficult going through my mom’s stuff because she kept, my grandma came out of, you know, the Victorian era where you did literally keep everything, you know, and then she was in the depression. And so she kept not only like sentimental things but,

Kathi (09:54.565)

Yeah.

Kathi (09:58.245)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (10:09.829)

Right.

Hilary Prall (10:19.935)

useful things. And so when she passed away, my mom, her siblings came and they took, you know, the few things that they wanted. And then literally, I think she hauled everything else home. So in having to go through all of my mom’s stuff, you know, there’s also a lot of family stuff and it’s hard to, it’s hard to decide because I love old things. It’s not just that it was family stuff, but it’s old stuff. So I feel like it has meaning. Like I don’t want to just see it.

Kathi (10:21.143)

Right.

Kathi (10:45.765)

Right.

Hilary Prall (10:49.151)

go in a dumpster somewhere or whatever. I think the difference comes in that because I’ve had to deal with this, a lot of things have lost sentimentality. Definitely for my sister. She couldn’t care less about most things. I go through seasons. I’ve been taking things to auction myself. So part of how my business started was buying and reselling vintage. So it’s definitely in my

Kathi (10:59.045)

Mmm.

Kathi (11:03.781)

Yeah.

Kathi (11:16.325)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (11:18.974)

in my DNA and I would say anybody who buys and sells vintage, it’s a really hard thing to stop. So it just is and you have to, there’s nothing wrong with it, but when it starts to cause you stress is when, that’s when it bothers my husband. Okay, it’s stressing you out, you’re causing yourself stress.

Kathi (11:20.293)

Right.

Kathi (11:26.373)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (11:37.125)

Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Hilary Prall (11:42.558)

I have one room in our basement left that I’m working through, but I like to think that I don’t cling to things like she did. I’m willing to get rid of them. I try to give things to people who would enjoy them. I can see that it’s just stuff. So…

Kathi (11:50.949)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (12:00.681)

So we’re gonna take a quick break and when we come back I want to know how did you get to that point of knowing I love I really you know, I enjoy this I can appreciate it I may even love it, but I can’t keep everything so I would love to hear some of your thought process behind that and how you got to that point in your journey because as a designer as a decorator I

I bet you could imagine a use for almost anything and I would love to hear how you’re able to curate what you’re deciding to keep and what you’re giving away. So we will take a quick break and come right back.

Hey guys, we are back with Hilary Prall, who is a designer, a decorator, an online content creator, influencer, and daughter of a hoarder. And so we were just discussing, Hilary, how are you able to keep from keeping all the things?

Hilary Prall (13:06.587)

Number one, I try to keep what my goals are in mind. We have a goal of moving from our house eventually and moving to a town that we really love. And so the thought of having to move all of this stuff, we moved from a house that was half the size of our house now when we bought this house in 2018. And at that time I got rid of a lot of stuff. I collected…

Kathi (13:12.901)

Hmm.

Kathi (13:23.397)

Hmm.

Hilary Prall (13:35.355)

vintage Pyrex and I had so much you couldn’t imagine it. But I got rid of a lot because I thought I’m gonna have nowhere to put it and I don’t want to move it. So I do have that goal of eventually you know us downsizing. I don’t want to take care of a big house. It’s just the two of us and I just don’t want that to fill my mind and my space. I have gotten better in creating content. I do

Kathi (13:51.269)

Yeah.

Hilary Prall (14:04.346)

some DIYs and things like that. So I would accumulate things at the thrift store that I think, this would be a good project or whatever. I can go to the thrift store any day of the week and find a project to do. So I’ve tried to keep that in mind that I don’t need to keep a stash of, unless it’s something really unique and cool, I don’t need to have a stash of things like that. I’m constantly getting rid of. So I think that’s important. That is, it’s an ever evolving door here, whether I’m giving it to friends or,

Kathi (14:14.853)

Hmm.

Kathi (14:21.573)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Hilary Prall (14:34.298)

giving it to the thrift store, selling it, whatever that looks like. I do think you have to get over the part that you spent money on it. You can nickel and dime yourself to death. If it’s a really something that’s valuable, sell it. I have discovered it’s really easy to take stuff to our local auction house. So I can set up an appointment and just take the load and then they, whatever’s left, they liquidate. I don’t have to worry about it.

Kathi (14:42.245)

Yes, yes.

Hilary Prall (15:03.577)

So for me, that has become the best option for getting rid of a lot of stuff that to me has value. It’s not just garbage.

Kathi (15:10.949)

I think it’s great that you have found your path of least resistance and for you it’s the auction house and I think we all need to figure that out. Is it straight donation? Is it selling it on Facebook or Marketplace? What is it for you? And get really good at that and rinse and repeat, absolutely.

Hilary Prall (15:20.097)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hilary Prall (15:33.98)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, I understand the guilt is there. So, okay, what does that do for you? You know, I mean, learn from it is all you can do. You know, maybe set a financial goal of something else that you would really enjoy and then, you know, sell your stuff or don’t buy new stuff.

Kathi (15:44.613)

Right, yes.

Hilary Prall (15:56.248)

Unfortunately, I probably would make a lot of environmentalists cry because I’m not doing a lot of recycling or you know, whatever. It just has to go. I think if you get that into your head, get rid of it. Just get rid of it. Don’t, you know, you’re not saving the planet in this one in this one moment. So I don’t, you know, one thing that my mom had was she would save. She had tons of medical.

Kathi (16:03.205)

Yeah.

Kathi (16:17.157)

Right.

Hilary Prall (16:24.599)

stuff that would come, whether it was a bill or insurance or whatever, and they always have that blank sheet of paper on the front of the back, and she would save it as scratch paper. She had more scratch paper than any one person could ever use, and so going through her stuff, I was like, gosh, I’m just gonna throw away all this scratch paper. It’s like, yes, just get rid of it, burn it, whatever.

Kathi (16:25.957)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi (16:36.933)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi (16:44.045)

Yeah. You know, I think, and I really do believe this is true, the best way for us to make an environmental impact is to choose who we’re buying from and what we’re buying. And instead of on the back end, once we already have the stuff and having to make those decisions. And we recycle, we bring out a big tub of recycling every single.

Hilary Prall (17:00.85)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (17:12.805)

But our community is set up for it and not all communities are. And so do what you can, but really if your biggest concern is the environment, it’s the not purchasing in the first place.

Hilary Prall (17:16.47)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (17:27.765)

Absolutely, and I would I would go a little bit further and say, you know, there’s even a new trend to like

I would say almost glamorize the reusable or the whatever. And so it’s almost like there’s an encouragement to like, okay, I have this bottle, but here’s this other bottle that’s really biodegradable and whatever. So you better throw away this bottle and go buy the other bottle. No, that’s no, you know, so then, but probably what would happen is you’d end up with like five of the bottles or whatever.

Kathi (17:42.501)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (17:52.197)

Right.

Kathi (17:56.549)

Yeah, it makes no sense.

Hilary Prall (18:05.396)

One thing my husband and I have done is just tried to focus on buying the best of whatever we’re buying. Buy at your top dollar. So hopefully it lasts and hopefully you’re just getting what you want. I think a big part of how hoarding can come about is that you feel like you’re never actually getting what you want. It’s the same with food addiction or whatever. You’re just not feeling fulfilled in it. So.

Kathi (18:11.045)

Mm. Right.

Yes.

Kathi (18:26.533)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Right. Because that target clearance purchase fills a need in the moment, but it doesn’t fill a long -term need. It fills that high of buying something. And by the way, I totally resonate with that high of buying something. But for me, it could be the high of buying a Costco chicken. Like, there, I…

Hilary Prall (18:40.468)

Mm -hmm. nope.

Kathi (18:58.213)

To me, it’s the same thing. And it’s like, okay, but also I’m learning to say, you know what, there’s also a thrill in using what I have. There’s also a thrill in feeling like I’m being wise and clever and smart with what I actually have. So how do you, what’s the thing that you say to yourself when you are purchasing something or when you’re considering purchasing something?

How what you know from vintage items to maybe you know craft supply whatever that is Do you have like? This is why i’m buying it. Do you have questions you ask yourself? Do you have something? What’s that thought process so that you are not acquiring and by the way? I love what you said about keeping the end goal in mind If the end goal is to move if the end goal is to enjoy your house

Hilary Prall (19:50.994)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (19:57.17)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (19:57.477)

and not feel overstuffed. If your end goal is to save up for a vacation, those end goals do not align with buying the clearance stuff at Target 99 % of the time. So I love that. So I would love to know, how do you keep that end goal in mind? What do you say to yourself when you’re considering a purchase?

Hilary Prall (20:10.641)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (20:19.249)

Well, I need to do better about it. I feel like I go in shifts. So one thing that I try…

Kathi (20:22.021)

We all do.

Hilary Prall (20:30.129)

I’ll phrase it this way. One thing that I do try to do is I am a very out of sight, out of mind person. So that means if my stuff isn’t out on display for me to enjoy, I don’t even care about it. So I think that is a little bit different than hoarders because they can pinpoint exactly where everything is and they’re very still concerned with it.

Kathi (20:47.205)

Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Hilary Prall (20:54.192)

That doesn’t mean I don’t have stuff still in my house that I’m not using or enjoying, but that’s out of laziness or whatever. But I try to keep that in focus. If I’m not using certain things, they can go by the wayside. So as I bring things in, can I take something out that is similar or that I’m not loving anymore? You know, I have a basement that I love very different styles of vintage. So our basement is like,

Kathi (21:14.853)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (21:24.016)

bright and colorful and has vintage board games and things like that. I’ve reached my capacity of vintage board games, I think, unless there’s just something that’s outstanding. So I think knowing, I mean, where’s the end? What’s your end? What’s the limit? Because I know that I want to be able to display these things. It’s not that I want to put them in a room for a later date.

Kathi (21:32.773)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (21:40.389)

Right.

Hilary Prall (21:49.807)

I have an entire wall filled with vintage paint by numbers. I don’t have any more room for paint by numbers. So unless one is just fabulous, there’s no reason for me to bring that home. So curation, I have a lot of stuff, but I think for the most part, I know when things are getting out of hand because stuff starts to feel wonky or off kilter or too crowded.

Kathi (22:01.605)

Mmm. I love that. It’s curation. Yeah.

Hilary Prall (22:17.871)

I think for the most part I still have visual space around everything. A lot of stacks and things like that, but I also know that I really don’t hold tightly to anything. If someone came in and said, Hillary, you need to sell all this stuff, great, that’s totally fine. But I know that telling that to my mom, that wouldn’t have mattered. Yeah.

Kathi (22:17.925)

Mm.

Kathi (22:22.213)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (22:42.725)

No, it would have been a very different thing. I love where you have come from in your journey to this because I think that one of the things that us cluttery people know, I think this is a really good sign of health, that we can be extremists sometimes. Either I’m a hoarder or a minimalist. And I think that there is a happy place. As a cluttery person, I enjoy stuff.

Hilary Prall (23:06.094)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (23:12.709)

I really do, but I also know that too much stuff will really weigh me down. So there’s a sweet spot and it sounds like in your business, in your personal kind of thinking around stuff, you have found that sweet spot of I’m not a hoarder, I’m not a minimalist, I’m Hillary, I have found.

Hilary Prall (23:12.878)

Mm -hmm.

Hilary Prall (23:40.589)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (23:41.765)

what works for me and I can feel when I want something new in my house, I can also feel when there’s too much in my house and to let that guide you. I think that that’s really, really amazing. Hillary, this has been such a great conversation. I would love to bring you back and talk a little bit more about as somebody who understands clutter, as somebody who has lived with a hoarder and doesn’t want to be on that end of it,

but also somebody who makes their living by creating spaces that they really, really love and other people love. How do we find that intersection? So if you’d be willing to come back, I would love to have that discussion with you. Okay, guys, I’m gonna put all of Hillary’s links and where to find her. Guys, go follow her on Instagram. She, just looking at her board, you’re…

Hilary Prall (24:25.259)

Absolutely.

Kathi (24:40.741)

You’re gonna be inspired, you’re gonna be encouraged, and you’re gonna know she’s one of us, so it’s okay. That she is not judging you for not having all of it together because we’re all works in progress. You guys have been listening to Clutter -Free Academy, I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter -free life you’ve always wanted to.

#647 The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

647 – The Shame-Free Path to Conquering ClutterHey friends! Have you ever felt so ashamed of your home that you would rather hide than invite anyone over? In this powerful episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into the emotional...

#646 Why Your House Won’t Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter Cycle

646 – Why Your House Won't Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter CycleHey there, friend! You know that feeling when you've spent an entire weekend decluttering, only to find your house looking exactly the same three weeks later? You are definitely not alone! In...

#645 Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free Life

645 – Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free LifeHey there, friends! Have you ever struggled with an overwhelming burden of household clutter? There is hope! In this episode of the Clutter Free Academy podcast, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive...

www.facebook.com/donnajonesspeak

#627 Creating a Win-Win Approach to Decluttering Conflicts in Your Home

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jul 23, 2024 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Heart, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Fear, Freedom, Home, Mental Load, Podcast | 0 comments

Listen Now

627 Creating a Win-Win Approach to Decluttering Conflicts in Your Home

Are you tired of the constant battles over stuff in your home?

Well, buckle up, because in this episode, we’re diving deep into the world of decluttering conflicts. In this episode of Clutter-Free Academy, host Kathi Lipp welcomes guest Donna Jones, author of “Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life” and podcast host of “That’s Just What I Needed.” The discussion centers around the intersection of decluttering and conflict resolution within relationships. You’ll be encouraged to approach decluttering conflicts with empathy, clear communication, and a focus on mutual solutions.

Listeners will discover:

How possessions often become a source of conflict, especially between generations
How to start difficult conversations about possessions and space in a healthy way
The importance of finding win-win solutions in conflicts over clutter

Throughout the episode, Kathi and Donna emphasize that while conflict can’t be avoided, it can be handled in healthy ways that lead to more peaceful lives and homes.

Click here to be notified when the next episode of Clutter Free Academy is released.

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Preorder your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here. Preorder offer ends October 8, 2024.

Links Mentioned:

www.donnajones.org

Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life by Donna Jones

www.instagram.com/donnaajones

Find Donna Jones’s “That’s Just What I Needed Podcast” on Apple, Spotify, or here.

Clutter Free Resources:

Learn more about Clutter Free for Life

How does emotional attachment to possessions contribute to conflicts in your relationships?

Share in the comments!

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Meet Our Guest

Donna Jones

Donna is a national speaker, author, host of the “That’s Just What I Needed” podcast and self-described Bible explainer who loves her God, her family, a strong cup of coffee and really cute shoes. Her latest book is Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. Visit her at www.donnajones.org.

Transcript

Well, hey, friends, welcome to Clutter -Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life.

And guys, I’ve got a new friend to introduce us to. I was just on her podcast. We had a blast and I knew when I heard the title of her new book, she needed to come be with our clutter free people. This is Donna Jones. She is a national speaker. She’s the podcast host of That’s Just What I Needed. And she is the author of Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. Donna, welcome to the podcast.

Donna Jones (00:52.494)

thank you so much for having me, Kathi. This is fun.

Kathi (00:56.839)

Well, you know, it’s so interesting because I was just talking with my pastor the other day and we were talking about different stages in life and what I was telling him was for my listeners over 50, probably one of the most frequent questions I have is how do I pass this stuff on down to my kids?

And probably the most frequent question I get from people under the age of 40 is, how do I tell my parents I don’t want their stuff? And…

Donna Jones (01:30.318)

areas.

Kathi (01:31.335)

That is a situation that is ripe for conflict It’s so funny because I just had this conversation with my mom the other day We are going there and we’re sifting through some of her stuff and she said do you want to contact Kimberly? Who’s my daughter or do you want me to to ask her if she wants your wedding album and Let’s just be clear. This is the wedding album from me and her father not my current husband

because I am remarried. I’m like, mom, she doesn’t want it. And she goes, well, how do you know? And I said, because she doesn’t want anything. And she really doesn’t want the album. And by the way, I’ve asked her if she wanted any of the pictures. She’s like, no, I’m good. I would rather remember you guys separately than together. I’m like, fair enough. I agree with that. But there is so much drama over stuff. And.

Donna Jones (02:01.038)

No.

Donna Jones (02:27.502)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kathi (02:30.343)

There are just, there’s so many scenarios where I believe you should want this stuff. And if you don’t want this stuff, what does that say about our relationship? Or you’re giving away the item that I gave you and what does that say about you and me? Or my kids thinking I should be able to hang on to their stuff for eternity. And there’s so much conflict.

over this stuff that is in our lives? And why do you think that possessions are such a hot topic? Or do you? Maybe you don’t agree with that.

Donna Jones (03:07.406)

no one. Yeah, no, no, no, I actually do. Well, to be honest with you, Kathi, almost anything can become a fair game for conflict. And so possessions fall into that category. And you know, it’s funny knowing I was going to come on your podcast, knowing that you’re clutter fleet, clutter free community here. I thought when we are embroiled in conflict, it clutters our mind.

Kathi (03:16.847)

Right.

Donna Jones (03:33.934)

It clutters our soul. I mean, the last thing we’re feeling is peaceful because we are replaying the conflict over and over and over. You know, we’re thinking about what he said, what she said, what we said, what we wish we said. You know, we’re going around, we’re talking about with our husband, with our girlfriend, with our mother. It’s just so consuming. Our brain is cluttered when we don’t know how to handle conflict well.

Kathi (03:34.311)

Yes. Yes.

Kathi (03:39.289)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (03:48.391)

Yes.

Kathi (03:55.815)

Yes.

Donna Jones (04:01.934)

So it’s just so, it’s so important.

Kathi (04:02.215)

100 % yes. I think of clutter as encumberment and conflict can often feel like encumberment but the commonality between stuff and conflict is both are necessary to a certain extent, aren’t they?

Donna Jones (04:08.192)

Yeah, I think perfect. Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (04:23.438)

Yes, yes. Okay, you’re exactly right because we have to have stuff, right, to live. And conflict is, if I could have written a book that was how to get rid of conflict from now into eternity, that’s time me up, right? But that’s not feasible. So thus, healthy conflict, peaceful life. We need to know how to deal with conflict in a healthy way, just like we need to know how to handle possessions.

Kathi (04:29.991)

Yes, right.

Kathi (04:37.671)

Girl, sign me up. Right.

Kathi (04:46.823)

Yes.

Donna Jones (04:52.782)

in a healthy way. And so we use our possessions, we don’t let our possessions use us. In the same way we use our conflict to work for us, we don’t let our conflict work against us, which is frankly what too many of us do. Because we just don’t know how, how do I handle this conflict? So to your point about the stuff and that people over 50,

Kathi (04:53.159)

Mmm, yes.

Kathi (05:13.959)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (05:19.342)

you know, how do I pass this down and the people under 50, how do I tell my parents I don’t want it? That goes to the way we view things. And Kathi, one of the things that I like to say that I really think is true is the way we view things determines the way we do things.

Kathi (05:28.551)

you

Kathi (05:38.823)

Okay, so unpack that for me.

Donna Jones (05:40.718)

Okay, so let me, I’m going to relate that to possessions first, then I’m going to relate that to conflict. So, because I know your audience is all about the possessions, the clutter. So the way you view a certain item, like let’s just go back to your mother and your wedding album. In her mind, she’s viewing it that way. That was a special moment. That was a milestone. So the way she viewed it is going to determine what she does with that. So how you view things determines how you do things.

Kathi (05:45.991)

Okay.

Kathi (05:51.207)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (05:57.671)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:02.055)

Right.

Kathi (06:09.271)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (06:10.67)

right? Your daughter views that as like, that’s just a reminder of what I don’t want to remember. So then that determines what she does with it, right? So if we can understand in terms of conflict, that one of the reasons we have conflict is because we’re viewing things a little bit differently. And we tend to assume that people just view things the way we view things.

Kathi (06:16.711)

Right.

Yes. Mmm, yes.

Kathi (06:33.927)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (06:39.982)

that this particular possession is as important to me as it is to you. And that’s not always the case. Or the fact that the house is neat is as important to me as is important to you. Or the fact that there’s a lot of clutter that’s no big deal, it goes on and on and on and on and on, right? So, which is why we have conflict with our kids over a messy room. What we define as we view it is, we tell our teenager, clean up your room.

Kathi (06:40.071)

Right.

Kathi (06:46.279)

Yes.

Kathi (06:53.223)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:57.447)

Right. Yes.

Kathi (07:03.912)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (07:10.382)

And we walk in and we’re like, are you kidding me? Like, okay, yeah, they pulled up their duvet and it’s not on the floor anymore, but the trash is still overflowing in there. There’s water bottles sitting around on the counter or whatever. And we’re like, this is not clean to me. So because the way we view things is you determining the way we do things and they’re viewing it differently. So.

Kathi (07:14.247)

Right.

Kathi (07:20.359)

Mm -hmm Right

Kathi (07:34.567)

Right.

Donna Jones (07:39.982)

You gotta talk about the way you view things.

Kathi (07:42.535)

Yeah, so let’s talk about this in the area of people you actually live with. So for me, that’s my husband. And now part -time, we live with my mom because we’re helping her deal with some stuff. And so how do you deal with the fact that there’s an emotional attachment? Or in Clutterfree, we talk about fear, guilt, and shame. Fear.

but what if I need that item someday? Guilt, so -and -so gave it to me, so I need to keep it for the rest of my life, and shame, I spent so much money on it, and if I give it away or throw it away, it just means I’m a wasteful person. And so we have these hangups, but our roommate, whomever that is, a spouse, a child, a parent, an actual roommate that you’re,

Living in the same space with doesn’t have that same emotional attachment to it How do you come to a place where you can discuss that? Maybe there’s some conflict or you know, is there a way to avoid the conflict when you’re discussing it or how do you get to the other side?

Donna Jones (08:45.582)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (09:00.238)

Yeah, that’s such a good question. And first of all, your listeners are ahead of the game because they know the three root causes. So they can assess themselves, okay, why is this important to me? But because they know the three root causes, they also have insight into what’s going on in the brain of the other person. So they can go, you know, and you don’t even have to say this to the other person. I wonder if that’s fear. I wonder if that’s shame. I wonder, you know, you can kind of, which is helps you.

Kathi (09:05.927)

Mmm.

Yes.

Kathi (09:13.191)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (09:19.559)

Yes.

Kathi (09:25.607)

Mm, right.

Donna Jones (09:29.966)

understand and understanding is one of the biggest keys to being able to resolve conflict when you understand another person’s perspective. So your listeners are already, you know, three steps ahead of most people. You do, you do. So I would say as you know, as you are, let’s say, trying to declutter some things, really talk about it.

Kathi (09:33.959)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (09:41.191)

We’ve got some smarties. We really do. Yes.

Donna Jones (09:57.326)

and just talk about, hey, what do you think about this? One of the things that, it’s even on my website, actually, Kathi, because I get this question so often, how do you start a hard conversation in a healthy way? And so sometimes when you’re working through clutter, you’re working through stuff, you’re working through, you almost wanna avoid it because you think, I don’t want this to be a big blow up, right?

Kathi (10:10.695)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (10:26.215)

Right.

Donna Jones (10:27.118)

So you need to know, okay, how do I even start this so that this conversation goes well, so the other person doesn’t get defensive, I still feel heard, and it doesn’t become a big conflict. So one of the things that I like to say is so helpful is that you start with a question. So most of us tend to start with our perspective, right?

Kathi (10:37.959)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Kathi (10:56.199)

Right, okay?

Donna Jones (10:56.878)

However, if you start with a question and you let the other person go first, then you find information about the way the person is thinking, feeling, you know, processing that you wouldn’t know otherwise. And it helps you know what to say next. Because now you’ve got this piece of information about this person and their perspective that you didn’t have before. And then number two, when they go first,

Kathi (11:03.783)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (11:24.487)

Right.

Donna Jones (11:26.99)

they feel like you’re automatically on their side and the defenses go down. So it’s a win -win. So you might say some, you know, let’s just say you’re cleaning out the garage with your spouse and you hold up some item that you think, I cannot believe that my husband still has this ridiculous hobby thing that he hasn’t done in 15 years, right? And…

Kathi (11:30.439)

Hmm, okay.

Kathi (11:37.255)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (11:46.959)

Right.

Kathi (11:53.031)

Right. Hey, let’s just use, for example, a guitar, which is just coming off the top of my head that I’ve seen, not that I have any, yes, but if you were going to give somebody a script, what would that script be? Would you ask questions about like, why is this important to you? What are your future plans? Yeah.

Donna Jones (12:02.19)

you have any?

In association with them. What would that script look like?

Donna Jones (12:19.118)

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I would say, okay, here’s what you don’t do. And then here’s what you do do. So you don’t go, you don’t hold it up and go, are you kidding me? We still have this. I thought we got, you know, gave this away five years ago. You never use this. This is definitely going to goodwill, right? So you don’t say stuff like that. Because of course the other person is going to get defensive and honestly, Kathi, even if they didn’t really want it, just by the fact that we said it that way, now they’re going to want it.

Kathi (12:24.167)

Okay.

Kathi (12:28.295)

Right. Yeah.

Yes.

Kathi (12:44.455)

Yeah.

Kathi (12:48.743)

Right, dig their heels in. Yes.

Donna Jones (12:48.878)

So we shot ourselves in the foot, right? So instead you hold up the guitar and you go, I forgot we had this. What do you think about this item? Should we give this away? What do you think about this? And we let the other person say, and let’s just say they say, no, I want to keep that. Then the next question would be, okay, well, tell me why you want to keep that.

Well, you know, the sentimental value, you know, whatever. Okay. Well, where would, where do you think it would, we should keep that so that it doesn’t clutter up our garage. So we keep, you know, asking these questions and the other, you’ll either find a solution about where it goes or the other person may even come to the conclusion like, you know what? I don’t really need that after all. But it’s kind of.

Kathi (13:27.783)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (13:36.135)

Right.

Kathi (13:42.215)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (13:44.046)

become a win -win and you haven’t gotten to fight over your stuff.

Kathi (13:47.079)

Yeah, I also am a big believer in whatever space I’ve allotted to myself that I don’t have to explain this to you. I allot to my partner. And so, you know, whether it’s a gorilla rack or a shelf on a gorilla rack, there are just some things that are hard to get rid of. Like I have a dress in there that I’ve literally never worn and.

Donna Jones (14:00.878)

Okay, yeah.

Donna Jones (14:08.558)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:15.495)

Roger does not care about it by the way, but I feel stupid that I’m keeping it, because I keep on thinking there’s got to be a way, I love this dress, I love it, but it just is a funky dress, and I tried it on, and I tried it on, and I’m like, hey, that looks cute, and then I got home, and I’m like, what was I thinking? And I bought it out of state, and so if Roger’s not gonna give me,

You know push back on this ridiculous dress that I bought maybe I need to leave the guitar alone But I do think that we have to figure out. I like your your thought Where should we keep this so it does so we’re not tripping over it every time we’re going through the garage like there are other ways to Have a win -win without somebody getting rid of it. I want to talk further about this We do need to go take take a commercial break and when we come back

I want to go over those questions one more time to give us a little script. Like to say, if we’re looking at this guitar case and we’re like, are you kidding me? This is still here. Why does this thing haunt me in my dreams? And we want to have, the goal isn’t necessarily to get rid of it. The goal is to live with the mutual decision it sounds like. And.

Donna Jones (15:37.678)

Yeah. Well, if you’re living with someone, yeah, exactly. Because that’s part of it.

Kathi (15:41.447)

Yeah, okay. I wanna come back and come up with those questions so that we can have that script that we can enter and do. So we’re gonna take a quick break, get this podcast paid for, and we’ll be right back.

Okay, Donna, here’s my question. I would love to give our listeners a little script. So, you know, let’s go back to the guitar, because that’s not a big deal. It’s just something that, well, let’s just be clear, I’ve lived with for 18 years, but it’s okay. Yeah, do I sound okay? Maybe not. So the first…

I’m not gonna say, are you kidding? We still have this guitar. This guitar haunts my dreams. We’re not gonna say that. We’re gonna say something more along the lines of, tell me about why this guitar is important to you or has been. Is that something like that?

Donna Jones (20:20.206)

Yeah, well, actually, we’re going to start with, yeah, we’re going to start with, what do you think we should do with this? Okay. That and, and.

Kathi (20:27.079)

Okay, and I’m gonna say, go ahead, tell me more.

Donna Jones (20:31.566)

No, well, I think the person goes, give it away. You’re done. I mean, you’re golden, right? You’re golden. Yeah.

Kathi (20:35.143)

You’re done. And you’re like, this is amazing. But I’m going to come back and say, but I played this in youth group, and that was kind of an important part of my life. And who knows, maybe someday I’ll pick it up again. Like these are not things Roger has necessarily said, but things that I imagine he might say. And I’m like, OK, but we don’t have a lot of room in our house. So like, what’s my next question for him?

Donna Jones (20:54.67)

Okay.

Donna Jones (21:01.166)

Yeah, so start with like, what do you think we should do with this? Then if they want to keep it, okay, tell me why that this is important. You feel like this is important to you. And then if they give you a reason, then say, okay, well, where do you think we should keep it so that it’s not in our way? And then you put it on them and then you need one. Yeah, find that place.

Kathi (21:08.519)

Yeah.

Kathi (21:20.615)

Okay, okay, to find that place. Okay, great. Now, I’m gonna challenge you with something bigger, Donna. We have people in our group, especially our paid group, Clutter -Free for Life, that their husbands have had things like farm equipment that they haven’t used in a decade, or cars, or…

I don’t know, you know, whole rooms dedicated to a hobby. So big stuff. How do you go to the next place in the conversation in big stuff?

Donna Jones (21:51.342)

So big stuff, big stuff. Yeah.

Donna Jones (21:59.566)

Yeah, yes, such a great question. Well, there is a chapter in the book called big things, little things, and everything in between. So part of handling conflict well is discerning. And when I say big things, little things, we’re talking about physical big things or physical little things, right? But there are emotional big things and emotional little things. So, you know, this is broader than just possessions.

So we got to discern, is this a big deal or a big thing or is this just a little thing like the dress in your closet? That’s just a small thing. It’s not a big deal. It doesn’t really take up much space and Rogers not, it’s not causing angst in your marriage, right? Small thing, let it go. But there are big things, emotionally big things or things like cars on the driveway or cars on the front lawn.

Kathi (22:29.543)

Right.

Kathi (22:46.503)

Right. Right.

Kathi (22:55.655)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. It’s a big deal.

Donna Jones (22:56.846)

that that’s a big deal, right? So that’s got to be addressed. That’s got to be addressed. In the book, I actually talk very specifically about a couple who were vastly different in the way they viewed a big thing. And their big thing was finances. He was a spender, she was a saver. And they just, every single time they talked about finances, it was World War Three.

Kathi (23:14.535)

Mm -hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi (23:26.503)

Donna Jones (23:26.798)

So it could be, you know, there’s somebody in your listening audience where their husband is kind of a hoarder, they’re trying to get it together and get clutter free, and it is just a constant conflict, right? So here’s what happens oftentimes is when we battle the same things over and over and over again, we tend to make the person the problem. Like if you weren’t such a hoarder, if you weren’t so invested in that darn car, you know, you see what I’m saying? So we make the person the…

Kathi (23:36.423)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (23:49.031)

Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yes.

Donna Jones (23:56.397)

problem. But here’s why that doesn’t work. We can never solve a person. We can only solve a problem. So instead of making a person the problem, keep the problem the problem. So let’s just say you have, you know, you have a whole room that you can’t use because your husband’s taking it up.

Kathi (24:03.527)

Oof. Yes.

Kathi (24:12.967)

Okay.

Donna Jones (24:23.182)

And that’s, you need that room or you want that room or that bothers you for whatever reason. So what you’re gonna do is you’re gonna sit down and you’re gonna come up with, you’re gonna talk about something that could be like a win -win solution. So, and you’re gonna think about the other person’s interests, right? So this is called like,

Kathi (24:26.887)

Right.

Kathi (24:41.127)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (24:46.631)

Okay.

Donna Jones (24:50.318)

Well, I can’t even remember what it’s called. What else is going on? It’s going out of my brain. My brain is cluttered right now. Yeah, a little side note, Kathi. Yeah, you’re trying to get to a win -win. So you sit down and you write where you’re going with this. So let’s just say it’s both of us feel good about that extra room, right? That both of us feel good about that. The way that extra room is,

Kathi (24:53.095)

That’s okay.

But you’re trying to get to a win -win, is what you’re saying. Yeah.

Kathi (25:10.439)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (25:15.911)

Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes.

Donna Jones (25:20.27)

being used. Then that’s where you’re going. So you’re both going in the same direction on this problem. Then you start brainstorming and you make a commitment, we’re just going to brainstorm this as a brain dump. So no, this is not the point where you go, that’s not going to work. No, you just like throw it out. But if there’s something that it’s like, that’s just, that’s not going to work for either of us. You can dump that one.

Kathi (25:21.607)

Yes.

Kathi (25:28.775)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (25:33.543)

you

Right.

Kathi (25:48.103)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (25:48.11)

And then you just start kind of, you know, you start kind of winnowing them down, but you’re always keeping in mind, okay, what’s the end goal? So this works for you, this works for me. And, you know, you kind of work toward that. Now that might take several conversations.

Kathi (26:08.647)

Right, I think the problem we often have is we want to get to the solution in 15 minutes when the problem has taken a decade. And that’s painful. So, you know, if there is a, you know, when you’re brainstorming saying, you know, I’d really love for our kids to be able to stay in that room when they come to visit. And I know your hobby is really important to you.

Donna Jones (26:13.678)

Listen. Listen.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Kathi (26:36.519)

Could we divide the space? Could we think through, could we use, you know, you used to collect coins and stamps and now you’re just collecting stamps. Could we do something with the coin? Like, I love the idea of brainstorming together to a solution where a common win is. And that common win is we both love our kids and we’d love for them to be able to stay here. Or, yeah.

Donna Jones (26:52.846)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (26:57.038)

Yes.

Donna Jones (27:02.286)

Okay, you just, that I just want to point out what you said, that was really key. We both love our kids. So you’ve just now put yourself on the same side. You have the same interest. So at some point in all of this, you’re gonna have a common interest in some area. It might just be your kids or you might,

Kathi (27:08.199)

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (27:15.079)

Mmm, yeah.

Kathi (27:23.047)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi (27:28.295)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (27:31.158)

If you always are thinking about just your interests, I want that room back because I want to use it as a guest bedroom. That’s never going to convince someone because you’re only looking at what’s important to you. You have to remember how you view things determines how you do things. So you have to always be thinking, what’s a win for you? What would be helpful for you? So when you do that, it’s easier to resolve your conflict.

Kathi (27:38.151)

Right, right.

Yeah.

Kathi (27:52.551)

Yeah.

Kathi (27:59.143)

Let me ask you this question because we have some people in some of our groups who are in really hard circumstances. And I’m thinking of one friend in particular who, you know, we talk about.

Donna Jones (28:08.846)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (28:16.167)

in our group saying, it’s really important to me that when we have people over, I’m not embarrassed by the house. That, you know, the house doesn’t have to be perfect, but I want people to feel comfortable coming into my house. And this friend said, but what if my family doesn’t care if I’m comfortable or not? And in my estimation, that’s not a clutter problem.

Donna Jones (28:25.006)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (28:44.647)

That’s a relationship issue. What would you say to somebody who says, my family doesn’t care that I feel blank, blank, blank.

Donna Jones (28:44.846)

Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Donna Jones (28:56.782)

Yes. my goodness. It’s really interesting, Kathi, because in doing the interviews for the book and talking to people about the book, because the book is really a relational book, right? Because conflict is relational always. One of the biggest questions I get, it’s twofold really. One is what are the biggest mistakes that you can make in conflict? And

Kathi (29:08.551)

Yeah, yeah. Right, absolutely.

Kathi (29:22.439)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (29:24.686)

actually the biggest, well, I don’t know if this is the biggest, but one of the top three. I actually have a chapter in the book called the top 10 mistakes that people make in terms of conflict. But the top one of the top three would be being dismissive of another person’s concern, because that communicates disrespect, right? And it’s a very short walk from disrespect to the dissolution of a relationship.

Kathi (29:33.415)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (29:40.647)

Mmm, yeah. Yeah.

Right?

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (29:52.487)

Yeah, absolutely.

Donna Jones (29:52.59)

So that’s why being dismissive is a really big deal. So that your friend is feeling dismissed. That’s a big deal. That needs to be addressed on a deeper. Yeah, it is.

Kathi (30:00.231)

Yeah, it’s a huge deal. So is that something to take to a counselor at that point? Because that doesn’t feel like anything I can address about clutter. But I do feel like that’s not OK. Roger would never tell me, I don’t care how you feel. That would never come up. So.

Donna Jones (30:12.942)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Donna Jones (30:19.598)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (30:27.079)

Is that the next step or are there steps in between somebody saying that and going to a counselor?

Donna Jones (30:32.207)

Yeah, I think there are steps in between because sometimes we assume that, let’s just say your friend has communicated. See, that’s the other thing. Sometimes we assume that we’re communicating what’s important to us, but we’re actually not communicating it clearly. So one of the things that my husband would like to say is expectation without communication always leads to frustration.

Kathi (30:34.535)

Okay.

Kathi (30:58.279)

that is true, yes.

Donna Jones (31:00.334)

Yeah. So we have to make sure, wait, did I communicate this in a clear way? And if I didn’t, that’s maybe why I’m frustrated because the other person’s not clear on my expectation.

Kathi (31:04.743)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Okay. I’m expecting you to mind read and suddenly you’ve lost that power. Darn it. Okay.

Donna Jones (31:14.03)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that’s the first step. Did I communicate this? My wants, my needs, my expectations, whatever. And then if, let’s just say you did, and the other person’s like, well, I don’t care. Why is that a big deal to you? Now that’s when you need to have a deeper conversation.

about and you need to really address some of these issues, right? Now, this may not be counseling level yet. This is where you make conflict work for you rather than against you. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is a conflict continuum that on either side of an unhealthy way of dealing with conflict is

Kathi (32:00.839)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (32:07.086)

On one side is avoidance, we’re the avoiders, and on the other side are the attackers. And probably all of your listeners know where they are, either more toward avoidance or more toward attacking, and they also probably know what their family members are, right?

Kathi (32:12.775)

Mm -hmm.

You’re right.

Kathi (32:23.431)

We’re two avoiders married to each other, so you know, nothing ever gets done. Yes.

Donna Jones (32:27.502)

basically you know you know right so here’s the thing Kathi neither of those is healthy or biblical so instead of being an avoider or an attacker the sweet spot in the middle is are the addressers and these are the people who have learned to address the issues so that the conflict ends up

Kathi (32:35.175)

Right.

Donna Jones (32:54.222)

being able to be resolved or worked through or at least managed in a healthy way. Okay? So, and a lot of the book is, okay, how do you do that? Because that’s the golden ticket. That’s the golden question, right?

Kathi (32:56.967)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kathi (33:05.671)

Right.

Yeah, so yeah, and I will correct myself and say with Roger and myself we are addressers to each other, but we were born both avoiders. So we are growing, we are growing, we’re still avoiders with some other people because my goodness, yeah. Okay, so just a final question here. If somebody, you know, and I definitely, guys, I recommend the book and we’ll put a link in there for,

Donna Jones (33:18.126)

that’s good.

Donna Jones (33:22.702)

Hahaha!

Kathi (33:38.119)

for all of you to check that out. If somebody is saying, you know what, this has been something, I’m tired of avoiding the conversation, or I’m tired of the fight level in my household, because I know that this is a short trigger for me.

I get very angry when I talk about that. What is one major step we can do to address the conflict in a healthy way that we haven’t talked about yet in the podcast? You say, my end goal is for both myself and this person I live with to have a good outcome. I want to address this in a healthy way and I don’t want to go back to my old patterns of attack or avoidance. What’s one thing I can do?

Donna Jones (34:36.014)

Okay, when most people think of how to handle conflict, they think of what action do I need to take? But the most important component of handling conflict well is not an action. It’s an attitude. And that attitude is humility. And here’s why.

Humility allows us to both see our perspective and the other person’s perspective. And humility is not the same thing as humiliation, right? Humility simply makes us a doorway for conversation, not a doormat for exploitation. So they’re really different. So if we’re humble, then that opens the door for further conversation.

Kathi (35:28.647)

No.

Kathi (35:38.279)

Mmm, yes.

Donna Jones (35:47.118)

So we really have to go back to this is you and me, not you versus me. So let me tell you, let me just close with this story that this was such a powerful but yet simple thing that my husband taught me really just by the way he responded to me. We were having a conflict early in our marriage.

Kathi (35:56.007)

Right.

Donna Jones (36:11.694)

And I really wanted him to see my perspective and he really wanted me to see his perspective. And we were going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And you know how that goes. Nobody’s really listening to each other and you’re interrupting each other and the conflict is escalating, escalating, escalating. And then we got to the point where JP just looked at me and he goes, Donna, Donna, I’m on your team. And Cathy, that phrase, I’m on your team, literally.

de -escalated that conflict in a nanosecond. Because what that did is it reminded me that, okay, we’re not adversaries here. And let’s try to work this out. But sometimes we just have to say that out loud. We have to verbally express our humility. Hey, I’m on your team. And we can do this. That takes humility.

Kathi (36:45.127)

Yes.

Kathi (36:53.159)

Right.

Kathi (37:05.275)

Yes. When it comes to decluttering, when it comes to decluttering, I think one of the humility stances we have to take is I, even though I belong to this group, I listen to this podcast, like I’m up in the clutter all the time, I don’t necessarily have the best answer. Like,

Maybe my spouse or my roommate or my child or my parent has a better idea how to handle this thing that we perceive as clutter. Maybe they have a better idea or maybe brainstorming together. We can because I think most of us know, well, that should be thrown away or that should be donated or that should be stored in this way. And to say humility says I want to win for both of us.

So let’s brainstorm together and be on the same team. Because our common enemy is the chaos in our lives. And being on the same team says, we don’t defeat each other, we defeat the chaos. And that’s what we’re going to do here. Donna, this is such a great perspective. Friends, the book is called Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. And isn’t that?

Donna Jones (38:11.597)

Mmm, yes.

Kathi (38:30.887)

I know we all want to avoid the conflict. We can’t avoid the conflict. So let’s deal with it in a healthy way. We’re going to have notes and links in the podcast notes so that you can go find out more about Donna, more about the book, and more about her podcast. Donna, thanks so much for being on ClutterFree Academy.

Donna Jones (38:49.902)

thank you so much, Kathi. This was just a joy.

Kathi (38:52.807)

This is so much fun to talk about from all the different perspectives for me. I just love it and friends Thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to clutter free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp now go create the clutter free life You’ve always wanted to live

#647 The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

647 – The Shame-Free Path to Conquering ClutterHey friends! Have you ever felt so ashamed of your home that you would rather hide than invite anyone over? In this powerful episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into the emotional...

#646 Why Your House Won’t Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter Cycle

646 – Why Your House Won't Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter CycleHey there, friend! You know that feeling when you've spent an entire weekend decluttering, only to find your house looking exactly the same three weeks later? You are definitely not alone! In...

#645 Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free Life

645 – Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free LifeHey there, friends! Have you ever struggled with an overwhelming burden of household clutter? There is hope! In this episode of the Clutter Free Academy podcast, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive...

#626 The Hidden Trauma Behind Clutter: How to Start Healing Your Relationship with Possessions

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Jul 16, 2024 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Heart, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Fear, Freedom, Home, Mental Load, Podcast | 0 comments

Listen Now

626 The Hidden Trauma Behind Clutter: How to Start Healing Your Relationship with Possessions

Have you ever struggled to give things away without feeling guilty, even when the items have only a slight chance of being useful in the future?

That very question came from our Clutter Free Academy listeners. In this CFA Mail Bag episode, Kathi Lipp and co-host Tonya Kubo answer that question and more. They dive deep into the emotional aspects of decluttering, focusing on the guilt that often accompanies getting rid of items.
Kathi and Tonya explore the roots of this guilt, discussing how childhood experiences and ingrained perfectionism can contribute to cluttering behaviors in adulthood. They share personal anecdotes and practical strategies for overcoming these emotional barriers to decluttering.

Listeners will discover:

Why it’s important to question why we’re not using certain items
How being intentional about what we bring into our homes is crucial
When considering environmental impact should happen

Throughout the episode, Kathi and Tonya offer encouragement and practical advice for breaking free from the cycle of clutter and creating a more peaceful, organized living space.

Click here to be notified when the next episode of Clutter Free Academy is released.

Also, stay up to date and sign up here to receive our newsletter.

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Preorder your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here. Preorder offer ends October 8, 2024.

Links Mentioned:

www.Tonyakubo.com

Information from the National Recording Preservation Board on Fibber McGee and Molly

Clutter Free Resources:

Learn more about Clutter Free for Life

Have you taken the “Low Buy July” Challenge? How is that going?

Share in the comments!

Let’s stay connected

To share your thoughts:

Leave a note in the comment section below.
Leave an honest review on iTunes. Your ratings and reviews really help and I read each one.

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with…

the co -host with the most, it is Tonya Kubo. Although, here’s the thing. It’s so funny. Somehow, people got onto a discussion about who their favorite guests were on Clutter free Academy. It is a horse race between Tonya Kubo and Roger Lipp. If I could pick two people for it to be a horse race in, yes.

Tonya Kubo (00:40.974)

Tonya Kubo (00:45.454)

It is.

Kathi (00:55.489)

If I had to, we could do this entire podcast with just the two of you and be just fine. Because I feel like you bring the heart of a cluttery person who has done some healing to this. And Roger brings the, I live with a cluttery person. And, but I, I, I learned an interesting fact about our friend Roger Lipp. So we were, I learned we were driving away from my mom’s house and

Tonya Kubo (00:59.854)

Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (01:18.926)

What did you learn?

Kathi (01:25.281)

know, when we leave town, it’s kind of hilarious, Tonya, because we’ve got our Yeti cooler and we’ve got a pretty small car. We’ve got, we just bring the Jeep usually back and forth. So we had the Yeti cooler, we had our Sam’s order, we had, you know, I bring food back and forth from my mom’s. And then we had some dog food, like all this stuff. And my mom said, it looks like Fibber McGee is pulling out.

Tonya Kubo (01:28.398)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (01:44.142)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (01:54.625)

which I guess was a radio show in the 1940s. Right. Yeah, a little cultural context from 80 years ago. And so Roger says, I’ve been called that all my life. And I’m like, wait, what?

Tonya Kubo (01:57.966)

I’ve heard the name but I had no idea what it meant. So thank you for explaining for me. I appreciate this. Thanks.

Tonya Kubo (02:13.774)

Okay, now we need to know why.

Kathi (02:16.289)

Okay, so, you know, Roger’s mom got remarried in like the the 70s. And his new father, which is kind of funny. His name was Dr. Dobson. Now, not the Dr. Dobson. Yeah, yes, exactly. But this was Dr. Dobson who was a pastor. And he’s very interesting. He actually shook the hand of Einstein because they were both at college at the same time. Right? Right? So interesting.

Tonya Kubo (02:28.526)

Okay, not the Dr. Dobson.

Kathi (02:46.177)

But I know. Roger didn’t know that. I asked him. I asked him because I knew that they were at, I think it was Princeton at the same time. I had done a little research. Yeah, anywho. Yeah. And let’s just say Roger’s stepdad, much older than Roger’s stepmom. Little bit of a scandal, but you know, kind of anyway. That’s what keeps things interesting. Anyway, so Dr. Dean was his name.

Tonya Kubo (02:46.414)

Why isn’t Roger pulling that out at pub trivia?

Tonya Kubo (02:58.67)

Huh, okay.

Kathi (03:15.425)

Never raised his kids. They were always raised in like a missionary school things like that so Roger was the first kid he had ever really lived with and He thought Roger was this wild child and I’m like, my goodness. Tell me all the good stories He goes, yeah, he’d be up really late at night and I’m like tell me tell me more cuz I have no scandal on Roger He goes yeah working on that photography equipment. I’m like

Tonya Kubo (03:21.518)

Mmm.

Tonya Kubo (03:44.238)

he was in the dark room late at night alone with negatives.

Kathi (03:44.865)

Okay. Develop developing things for the yearbook and the newspaper. Yeah. So anywho, all this to say, Fibber McGee, so apparently Roger has been called cluttery his whole life. I have seen no evidence of this really in his life, but I just I, I, it felt good.

to know, you know, maybe we have a common core. This is way off topic. Okay.

Tonya Kubo (04:18.958)

off topic because today is my favorite episode. Okay, I do. I was like…

Kathi (04:24.641)

You love these episodes. I love them too, but you get a little bit of sick joy, I would just say.

Tonya Kubo (04:30.862)

Well, here’s what I love. So we’re doing a mailbag episode, which, and the mailbag episodes are my favorite. And the reason they are my favorite is twofold. Number one, I love, love, love, love, love that we can take the real life current experiences of our Clear Free Academy members and bring them onto the show to help other people who aren’t on Facebook.

Kathi (04:35.201)

Yep.

Kathi (04:54.945)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (04:58.766)

didn’t know we have a Facebook group or any of that. Like I love that. I also love the message that we send to our Clutterfree Academy members who ask these questions that they’re really not alone. Because if they were the only person on the planet who had this problem, who had this question, we would not be devoting an entire episode to it.

Kathi (05:12.289)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (05:20.161)

Right. And I love what you’re saying there, to feel less alone. Because we all sit in our houses, we only get invited over to perfect houses. And so we assume that we’re the only one without a perfect house. And just by our Facebook group statistics alone, which is over 15 ,000 people, I would challenge you to sit, I would challenge your thinking on that, that you’re the only one, because you’re not.

Tonya Kubo (05:31.214)

Right.

Tonya Kubo (05:41.262)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (05:47.726)

Yeah, exactly. So today’s question, I feel like speaks to the heart of where many people are when they join Clutterfree Academy. So I find that we have a few composite new members. There is the person who is like me, feeling suffocated by their stuff to the point that actually being unhoused sounds liberating.

Kathi (06:02.465)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:15.502)

Like the idea of having nothing but a backpack sounds like the ultimate liberation, which, go ahead.

Kathi (06:22.977)

My mom, Tonya, has a button that says potential bag lady. Like, yeah, she just, I think especially having two teenagers, she was like, just go and, you know, and by the way, we’re not making fun of unhoused people at all, friends, please, please, please. But I think everybody’s had, I think that’s why we like hotels so much.

Tonya Kubo (06:29.71)

Yeah!

Tonya Kubo (06:37.262)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:44.27)

No.

Tonya Kubo (06:49.966)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:51.201)

I think that’s why we like the thought of doing an RV or something like that. I think a lot of Cloré people have those same ideals.

Tonya Kubo (06:54.798)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:58.574)

Right. And so to the point, right, because what I’m really getting at is so overwhelmed that you just want to escape. We have that person and they want to escape their living circumstances. And then we have the person who comes who actually has a moral struggle. Like they’re not sure. They know that other people have a problem with the condition of their house or other people have a problem with their cluttery ways, but they’re not actually sure that other people are right. Because

Kathi (07:05.921)

bright.

Yes.

Kathi (07:27.713)

What do you mean by that?

Tonya Kubo (07:28.745)

Because in their heart of hearts, they think they’re doing good in the world by keeping hold of things. And so that’s where this question comes from. Because I know, like the outsiders who are not cluttery assume that, you know, our group is full of people who just can’t keep house, which you know how I feel about that. And that’s an episode for another day. But this is the person who says, okay, I hear what you’re saying that

Kathi (07:34.913)

Mmm, yes.

Yes.

Kathi (07:48.481)

Yeah, right.

Tonya Kubo (07:57.006)

I, you know, that it makes sense and it’s a good idea to have a house that’s tidy, that’s peace -filled, that my family enjoys. And yet, I genuinely cannot give anything away if it has even a modicum, even like a little itty bitty hair’s breadth chance of being useful at some point in time to someone, even if that someone’s not me.

What do I do when I can’t give anything away without feeling guilty? That’s the question. And it’s a doozy, right, Kathi? Because there is the decluttering aspect. There is the internal emotional aspect of the guilt. And I would even argue the shame of releasing stuff.

Kathi (08:25.985)

Right.

Kathi (08:35.329)

Hmm.

Tonya Kubo (08:48.686)

And we’ve worked a lot of times with members who the shame and the guilt comes from they spent money on that thing, right? That they’re not using. But this is different. This is I can see that somewhere, somehow somebody might need an extra cord from a slow cooker and therefore I cannot get rid of the cord. So that’s the question that I’m bringing to you, OYZ1. Hit me with your knowledge now.

Kathi (08:56.577)

Right.

Kathi (09:08.481)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Well, this is going to be a mutual knowledge thing. Okay. So can I tell you, I’m just gonna throw up confessions here. Okay. So, okay, I am a kid from the 80s, right? You know, Brat Pack, all that kind of stuff, like hardcore 80s. Yes, I know. I love them. And

Tonya Kubo (09:21.326)

Yeah

Tonya Kubo (09:30.734)

Sure, I’m all up for confessions.

Kathi (09:44.929)

But I grew up in a very black and white time. Like, excuse me. Like, if you were really hungry, you would eat those green peppers.

Tonya Kubo (09:54.094)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (10:05.397)

I was like, and we all could finish your sentence for you. If you were really hungry, you would eat what I put in front of you.

Kathi (10:08.481)

Yes. Right, right. And, you know, if you if you, you know, you shouldn’t have to buy clothes, because you should be happy with what you have. It very black and white thinking. And, you know, to be grateful for everything you have, which I agree with, Tonya, I don’t actually know a lot of people. I feel like

that express their gratitude for what they have more than I do. And I’m not saying that I don’t think I’m a big bragger on here, but I just know like my intense gratitude for what I have. And that can also be a trap. Like,

Tonya Kubo (10:42.734)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (10:52.718)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (10:58.318)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (11:01.249)

If you know, here’s a shirt and it has a bunch of stains on it. Okay, so I’m going to work really hard to get those stains out and I got those stains out, but now it’s a little frayed. But you know what? I’m going to, I’m going to, I’m going to do this, this, this, this. And then finally it gets to the place where that shirt can’t be used anymore. Well, I should be able to use that as a rag, even though it’s an ineffective way of cleaning my house. And I hate cleaning my house.

Tonya Kubo (11:08.494)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:23.662)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (11:30.657)

But I should, I should, I should. The person who is struggling to give things away without guilt, who I contend towards that, is we have got a brain full of shoulds. And maybe we grew up in a house where we were being corrected a lot. Like, okay, can I give a silly example without throwing my mom under the bus?

Tonya Kubo (11:32.942)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:38.03)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (11:45.902)

Mmm.

Kathi (12:00.769)

So yesterday, I was helping her clean her living room and there was just a plastic water bottle there. And I said, are you using this to water plants? And she goes, no, I think, you know, it just got left there by somebody. And I said, okay. So I go to the sink to dump it out. She goes, but water a plant with it, Kathi. And like, there’s…

Tonya Kubo (12:00.814)

Sure.

Tonya Kubo (12:18.862)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (12:31.809)

So it’s just funny, it’s a funny example, right? But you may have grown up in a house that was like that about everything. Like, okay, when that shirt’s no longer good, then we’re gonna give it to goodwill, even if it has stains on it, because somebody should be grateful for it, and somebody should wear it. And…

Tonya Kubo (12:34.606)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (12:41.806)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (12:57.185)

I have always been under the impression, or not always, but definitely in the last 20 years, if I wouldn’t want to wear it, why should I expect somebody else to want to wear it? If I wouldn’t eat it, why should I expect somebody else to want to eat it? I’ve had to change my thinking on that and say, it’s not a bet. We can be in such a poverty mindset that it’s impossible for us to give things away or to

Tonya Kubo (13:21.23)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (13:26.177)

throw things away. And, you know, like, okay, maybe that, you know, it’s that toaster oven, that if somebody spent $30 repairing it, that it could be useful. But most people don’t know how to repair a toaster oven, don’t know where to start with that. And yes, there are things you could do. And if you’re one of those naturally handy people, yay, but most of us aren’t.

Tonya Kubo (13:28.846)

Yeah…

Tonya Kubo (13:35.79)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (13:56.321)

And we have to figure out where we’re going to put our time, effort, and energy. And all of this is trade -offs. There is no… So many of us, I struggle with this mightily, are closet perfectionists. We don’t look like we’re perfectionists because if you came into our house, you know I’m not a perfectionist, but I am. I’m trapped in the way I should be doing things and I’m not doing things.

Tonya Kubo (13:57.038)

right?

Tonya Kubo (14:01.55)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:23.777)

and I live with that guilt all the time. And Tony, I want to hear your response to this. We’re going to take a quick break. We’re going to go get some bills paid. We’re going to come right back. And I want to hear your response to that perfectionistic mindset and maybe the people we grew up with contributing to that.

Tonya Kubo (14:34.062)

Yeah

Tonya Kubo (14:38.638)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (14:44.046)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:46.561)

Okay friends, we are back. Tonya is going to give us all her wisdom about how perfectionism really can be one of the main reasons why it’s hard to give away clutter, items, et cetera, without guilt. Go Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (15:04.59)

Alrighty. So it’s interesting this perfectionist idea, because I definitely agree with it. And I, there’s so much wrapped up in there. And I think your point is, you know, so much of our adult cluttery ways are steeped in some form of childhood trauma. And I’m not saying like capital T front page headline trauma.

Kathi (15:30.625)

Goodbye.

No.

Tonya Kubo (15:33.998)

I am saying I’m really talking about the trauma that just builds up. It’s like the thing that hurts your feelings but maybe didn’t hurt your brother’s feelings. That sort of stuff, right? Like you just, you carried it differently.

Kathi (15:45.185)

It’s, you can be, yeah, you can be traumatized just by imperfect parenting. And that, it’s something you still have to work out. It’s okay, you know, because we were all raised by imperfect parents. That’s what happened.

Tonya Kubo (15:52.558)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:01.71)

Exactly. So with that, I think that we also have to come to some point where we say, who do I really want to be? Right? What like what’s mine to carry? What do I want to carry? And I know for me, that cluttering journey has really been about going, huh, I don’t have to own this, right? Like this wasn’t even my junk to own in the first place.

Kathi (16:14.881)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (16:18.849)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (16:31.809)

That’s right.

Tonya Kubo (16:32.101)

And so, yes, there’s the perfectionistic part of wanting to do things right that our Clegary folks really, really struggle with. But I think the point you’re actually making is sometimes it’s not our own perfectionism, but it’s perfectionism that was projected onto us.

Kathi (16:51.041)

Mm -hmm. If you’re going to do it the right way, if you’re going to do, you know, there’s a moral attachment to being thrifty and reusing banks and a moral attachment to spending less money, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And some of those are good things. You know, I believe in those things, but also they can be guilt traps.

Tonya Kubo (17:04.462)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (17:19.521)

They can be deep traps. And also, lots of times, Tonya, you may be done with something, but like we were talking about earlier, you still see the value in it. So you want to give it to me so that I can get the value out of it. I one time had somebody at church who said, Kathi,

Tonya Kubo (17:31.278)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:39.726)

Right.

Kathi (17:47.041)

I can’t use these hundred baskets anymore. And I’m not even joking, a hundred different baskets. 100 baskets. There were more than that, but it was at a minimum of a hundred. But I’ve left them here for you because I know you could do something with them. And in my brain is like, do you just want me to take them to the dump? Like, what do you want me to do? And it was, she was putting,

Tonya Kubo (17:50.734)

Mm -hmm. 100 baskets.

Tonya Kubo (18:06.414)

Like what?

Kathi (18:15.649)

a judgment on me to say, basically, if you’re a good person, you would figure out how to let these not go to waste. In my thinking, it was like, lady, you should not have collected 100 baskets. And yeah, and this was a lovely lady and she has since passed. And I think sometimes, like I’ve had some relatives where I’ve had to say, hey, I can take that from you, but you have to give me

full autonomy to deal with it in the way I want. You’re never going to ask me, where is this? Do you display it? And those relatives couldn’t do it. They needed, it’s a control issue, right? And I struggle with control issues as well. And I’ve had to learn that if I’m going to give something away, I have to be okay with whatever happens to it. And that is a hard place for people to be.

Tonya Kubo (19:10.574)

Mm -hmm. That’s true.

Kathi (19:15.649)

But also I need to make sure that I am controlling my own environment and not letting things seep in that or not refusing to give things away because of this mindset. You know, I am very quick to say, hey, I’m not using this. I’m going to give it away. I now I am. But I used

Tonya Kubo (19:32.206)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (19:42.318)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (19:45.185)

I used to have this guilt of like, I have to get the value out of it. I have to get the money out of it. Like I have to hold onto that shirt because I haven’t worn it enough. Well, why haven’t I worn it enough? Because it actually, you know, maybe it was itchy. And if it’s, so I think that’s the next step when you’re like, why am I not using this item? Is it because I’ve

Tonya Kubo (19:50.286)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (19:56.206)

Right.

Tonya Kubo (20:03.566)

Mmm.

Kathi (20:13.153)

outgrown it, either physically or emotionally or mentally, well then it’s okay to give to somebody else or if it’s not usable, it’s okay for it to go into the landfill. Every human gets a certain amount of landfill stuff and I would challenge you to look at your landfill consumption on the

acquiring end instead of the getting rid of it. That’s where you can do the most impact. So thinking about something before you purchase it, asking yourself, why am I no longer using this? You know, I had some, some pants that I was like, I’m just not wearing them. I’m just not wearing them. And so I’m like, okay, I’m going to pick them up. Why am I not wearing them? Well, when I picked them up, I realized, Tonya, what I kept doing.

Tonya Kubo (20:43.437)

Mm -hmm.

Mmm.

Kathi (21:10.209)

was I kept pulling them out of the closet, seeing they had this weird stain on them, and putting them back in the closet. This was not a good system for me, right?

Tonya Kubo (21:16.654)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (21:21.582)

Can I just tell you I have lived that exact same system, Kathi? It is okay. I feel you right now.

Kathi (21:24.161)

Right? Right? Yes! And so, but these are good fitting pants and I like how they look on me. I just don’t like a giant stain. So what am I doing? I’m dyeing those pants tomorrow.

Tonya Kubo (21:32.27)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (21:40.286)

I was just gonna ask if dying fixes that.

Kathi (21:42.849)

It does. It does. You have to go with darker color. So for me, it’s navy blue. For Tonya Kubo, it’s black. But you know, if you go that darker color.

Tonya Kubo (21:46.766)

Okay.

Tonya Kubo (21:52.238)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (22:04.641)

I’ll just be honest, sometimes we’re trying too hard to save things that don’t need to be saved. Maybe the taco casserole that I made the other day that I was trying a new recipe on and Roger said, he’s very appreciative of my cooking, but he goes, it tastes like there’s a piece of Wonder Bread in the middle of it. And he was not down with that texture. And I tried to save it a couple of times. Yeah, sometimes you just need to give up and it’s okay to give up, try to fix something. But if you can’t,

Tonya Kubo (22:08.75)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:19.214)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:24.878)

Got it.

Tonya Kubo (22:29.262)

Yeah.

Kathi (22:33.729)

fix it, don’t keep it. I want you to hear me clearly. I’m not screaming at Tonya. I’m screaming at all of my friends who are like, well, at some point there’s magically going to need to be a use for that. You know, I don’t know why I have 300 solo cups, but there’s going to be a day where somebody is going to need those 300 solo cups or, you know, maybe it’s today. Maybe your kid’s school needs them. I don’t know what the

Tonya Kubo (22:39.758)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (22:49.87)

and

Kathi (23:03.713)

The rules are about red solo cups like at a kids school. Is it too evocative of a college party? Okay.

Tonya Kubo (23:09.454)

No, nobody knows, they’re just disposable cups that everybody uses.

Kathi (23:12.353)

Okay, good, good, good, good. But if you cannot figure out a use for that item, if you can’t figure out somebody who would gleefully receive that item, and here’s the test, Tonya. If you put it up on a buy nothing group and you get no takers, it’s probably junk.

Tonya Kubo (23:31.118)

Yep, that makes sense.

Kathi (23:32.641)

It’s a really quick test. I want us to think about, it’s not about I’ve wasted the money. I’ve gotten my money’s worth, if I wore it one time or 100 times. And now it’s time for somebody else. Cluttery people are so generous. So it’s time for somebody else to get the use out of it. If you’ve only worn it one time,

Tonya Kubo (23:44.814)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (23:56.75)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (24:02.337)

then it probably still has a lot of life left in it and somebody else will use it. But if you’ve worn it a hundred times, it may be time for it to go into clothing recycling. It’s okay, I promise.

Tonya Kubo (24:13.102)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (24:16.782)

That makes sense. And I think, you know, part of me feels like, well, we say that all the time. And then the other part of me feels like, you know what? I know early in my journey, I couldn’t hear it enough. I needed the constant reminder that it is not my job to single -handedly save the environment by never putting another thing in a landfill. It is not my job to be the example of stewardship.

Kathi (24:29.281)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Kathi (24:40.737)

Right, right.

Tonya Kubo (24:46.83)

for the entire planet by retaining everything I ever bought or ever received. So thank you. Thank you for that because even now so many years later, it’s still a helpful reminder.

Kathi (24:53.057)

Yeah.

Kathi (25:01.281)

Well, and I really want to challenge us to think, for some reason, us Cluttery people think about the environment after the purchase. And so to think about before we purchase what, you know, you know my favorite motto from World War I, use it up, wear it out, make do, do without.

Tonya Kubo (25:14.157)

Yes.

Kathi (25:29.313)

That is so much about not bringing new things into our home. And it’s okay. We need to buy things sometimes. I bought a tank top yesterday because right now it is a 110 in Sacramento and I needed a tank top. I’m fine with that. I felt like that was a good purchase, something I’ll be able to use for years to come. But

Tonya Kubo (25:35.31)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (25:51.438)

Yeah.

Kathi (25:58.657)

I thought about it before I bought it. This has been the biggest change I really do like in my clutter free journey after seriously decluttering my house is being so intentional and thoughtful about what I bring into the house. So if you’re feeling guilty about getting rid of things, I always think about it like this. It’s kind of a reset. So if you have a bunch of clothes in your closet that you’re not using,

Tonya Kubo (26:22.222)

Mm.

Kathi (26:26.785)

but you go to your closet every day and you’re like, there should be something here, but there’s nothing I want to wear. It is time to get rid of some of those things in your closet. So you actually have an accurate picture of what you have and can say, you know what? I don’t have a cream tank top. And that would actually go with a lot of things I have. Look at that. I don’t have a pair of jeans that I feel amazing in.

Everybody needs a pair of jeans that they just feel like is a banger. And so, but you’ll never know that when you have 75 things in there that you never wear. And that’s what I want for you. So get that accurate inventory of what you actually have. This could be for food. This could be for gardening equipment. This could be for your closet. This could be for your linens. Because otherwise what we end up doing, Tonya, is we go to the store and you’re like,

Tonya Kubo (26:57.55)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (27:06.414)

so true.

Tonya Kubo (27:21.678)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (27:23.809)

Yeah, I remember that the last time I went to my closet, there was nothing to wear. So I think I just need to buy some new clothes, some new clothes, right? And then what we end up doing is buying things that we don’t need. And then we hold on to things because, well, I spent so much money on it’s this vicious cycle. And we’re going to break the cycle by being intentional about what we bring into our home.

Tonya Kubo (27:28.782)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (27:32.558)

Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (27:37.806)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (27:48.814)

I love that. I love that.

Kathi (27:50.209)

Yeah. Okay. Well, Tonya, I love these mailbag issues because I feel like we get to go deeper. We get to go to the heart of it. We get to go to our own histories and our own coming up and thinking about this. And guys, when we talked about that trauma, I want you to hear me that you…

Tonya Kubo (28:03.214)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (28:13.537)

I love what you said, Tonya. It’s the lowercase t. It’s the things that make us act in ways that we wouldn’t want to act and make us use decisions. And guys, here’s the thing. I know that I have done this for my kids. If my kids have kids, they’ll do it for their kids. This is part of the cycle of life. But we also know that we can break those cycles.

Tonya Kubo (28:17.486)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (28:24.814)

Right.

Tonya Kubo (28:41.966)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (28:42.497)

And when I break a cycle, even as the adult parent of adults, it does trickle down. They can see changes in our lives and I think that’s beautiful. Tonya, thank you so much for being with me today.

Tonya Kubo (28:49.102)

Mm -hmm.

Tonya Kubo (28:56.462)

Thanks for having me, Kathi.

Kathi (28:58.337)

And guys, thank you for being with us. If you are struggling in this and you are not part of our Facebook group, can I really encourage you to go over there and check it out? And I’ve heard from a couple of people recently, well, I tried to join and I was not let in. Let me tell you, you probably didn’t answer some questions and that’s okay. But just know that there are questions to ask and answer, there are questions to answer. And if you’re not crazy,

Tonya Kubo (29:19.438)

Yes.

Tonya Kubo (29:24.718)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (29:28.129)

We will let you in or if you’re all kind of crazy, we’ll let you in. It’s all good friends. Okay Yeah, so join us over at Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy where we talk about these kind of issues all the time and we can support each other because we love to hear what your answers to these questions are as well because we get more wisdom from everybody You’ve been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go create the Clutter Free life. You were always designed to live

#647 The Shame-Free Path to Conquering Clutter

647 – The Shame-Free Path to Conquering ClutterHey friends! Have you ever felt so ashamed of your home that you would rather hide than invite anyone over? In this powerful episode of Clutter Free Academy, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive deep into the emotional...

#646 Why Your House Won’t Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter Cycle

646 – Why Your House Won't Stay Clean: Breaking Free from the Clutter CycleHey there, friend! You know that feeling when you've spent an entire weekend decluttering, only to find your house looking exactly the same three weeks later? You are definitely not alone! In...

#645 Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free Life

645 – Reclaiming Your Space: Your First Steps to a Clutter-Free LifeHey there, friends! Have you ever struggled with an overwhelming burden of household clutter? There is hope! In this episode of the Clutter Free Academy podcast, hosts Kathi Lipp and Tonya Kubo dive...

#608 Should You Declutter When Life is Just too Much?

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Mar 12, 2024 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Podcast, Freedom, Home, How to, Organizing, Overwhelmed, Podcast | 2 comments

Listen Now

608 – Should You Declutter When Life is Just too Much?

A life-changing event happens like a new job, a new baby, a change in health, or any number of circumstances. You find yourself struggling with what to do with items in your space and wondering if this is a typical response.

If you have ever felt like that, this episode has the encouragement and strategies you need.

Join Kathi Lipp and her co-host and Clutter-Free Champion Tonya Kubo as they deep dive into decluttering when life feels overwhelming. Tonya recently lost two family members in a short period. She discusses how she helped her extended family deal with sentimental items while acknowledging that everyone has a different timeline when it comes to sorting through these items. Kathi and Tonya give helpful insights into decluttering when life feels like it is just too much with thoughts such as:

Circumstances may change, but the clutter challenges are the same.
Permitting yourself time to just sit with the items is okay.
How the definition of clutter changes based on life transitions.

Sign up here to be notified when the next episode is released.

As Kathi mentioned in the episode, she has a free resource for you! Receive your Checklist for Decluttering When Moving or Downsizing by signing up for her newsletter here.

The Accidental Homesteader: What I’ve Learned About Chickens, Compost, and Creating Home

Homesteading [hohm-sted-ing]
noun
1. an act or instance of establishing a homestead.
2. the act of loving where you live so much that you actively ignore the fact that your house is trying to kill you on a regular basis.

For Kathi Lipp and her husband, Roger, buying a house in one of the most remote parts of Northern California was never part of the plan; many of life’s biggest, most rewarding adventures rarely are.

Kathi shares the hard-won wisdom she’s gained on her homestead journey to help you accomplish more at home, gain fresh perspective, and give yourself grace in the process. Here’s a handful of the lessons Kathi shares:

Prepare before the need arises
Everything is always in process, including us
Your best household solution is time and patience
You don’t have to do everything the hard way
Be open to new and better ways of doing things
A lot of small changes make a huge difference.
Highly practical, humorous, and inspirational, The Accidental Homesteader will encourage you to live with more peace, joy, and contentment.

Order your copy of The Accidental Homesteader: What I’ve Learned About Chickens, Compost, and Creating Home here.

Favorite Links:

Sign up here for Kathi’s newsletter or here to receive her Clutter Free Basics Kit!

Clutter Free Resources:

Learn more about Clutter Free for Life

Has your definition of clutter ever had to change due to life circumstances?

Share your answer in the comments.

Let’s stay connected

To share your thoughts:

Leave a note in the comment section below.
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Subscribe on iTunes or subscribe to our newsletter now.

Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am here with the co-captain of the Clutter-Free community. It is Tonya Kubo. Hey, Tonya.

Tonya Kubo (00:44.182)
Hey, Kathy.

Kathi (00:46.653)
And can we just say we have to give Tonya extra props because she’s been sick I don’t know for the last month and We’ve had to reschedule this a couple of times not just not just because you’ve been sick But we were about to hit record a couple of weeks ago and your power

Tonya Kubo (00:54.943)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (01:06.974)
Yes, my power went out twice that day.

Kathi (01:11.485)
Let’s be clear, when Kathy’s power goes out, we’re like, well, that’s just a Tuesday. But when Tonya’s power goes out, and you know what? I’m just gonna say something here real quick that maybe some, this might be of help to some people. Roger just got diagnosed with sleep apnea and he has to wear a CPAP. So yes, I am sleeping next to Darth Vader every single night now, but it’s really helping him. But because of that,

Tonya Kubo (01:16.404)
Right.

Kathi (01:39.797)
In the state of California, we’ve qualified for a program where we can get Tesla batteries on the side of our house absolutely free. Where the Tesla batteries absorb the power at the cheapest rate and then put out the power when we most need it. And to get these Tesla batteries is almost $2,700, no, $27,000, excuse me, $27,000. And there’s a California program where we get them for free now.

Tonya Kubo (01:58.358)
Wow.

Tonya Kubo (02:04.354)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (02:10.242)
That is amazing. I know a lot of people with CPAP, so that’s huge.

Kathi (02:10.433)
So, isn’t that?

Yeah Yeah, so I know a lot of our listeners are not in California But we also have a decent amount because you and I both live in California and a lot of people that we’ve spoken to and met So that has nothing to do with it. Well, maybe it has something to do with today’s Because here’s the thing that’s a life change for Roger and I have to tell you the first thing he did God bless him. He gets the CPAP machine. He goes I need to declutter my side of the bed because now

Tonya Kubo (02:43.232)
It’s big.

Kathi (02:43.489)
It’s not a huge apparatus, but it takes space, especially on his nightstand. So that’s something we need to consider.

Tonya Kubo (02:48.396)
Yeah.

No, that is true. That is true. Brian had a CPAP for a while and his was huge. I’m not gonna lie. His took up the entire surface of the nightstand.

Kathi (02:58.135)
Oh.

Kathi (03:02.501)
Oh dear. Yeah, that makes for an interesting bed partner, doesn’t it? Okay, but yeah, what we’re talking about today, let’s just dive right into it. Tonya, you spent a lot, we both did, we spent a lot of time talking to people in our paid group, Clutter Free for Life, about what their biggest challenges were, how we could help. In our paid program, we do a 15 minute free consultation with everybody who joins.

Tonya Kubo (03:07.698)
Yes it does.

Tonya Kubo (03:20.174)
Hmm.

Kathi (03:30.933)
so that they can ask us the questions that are just for their circumstance. What I came to find out, and I wonder if you did too, is when they said, this is really unique to me, it was never really unique to them. Because the circumstances may change, but the challenges are the same. That was my biggest takeaway.

Tonya Kubo (03:44.29)
That is true.

Tonya Kubo (03:49.502)
Right. Well, and I felt like for them, that was probably like, because I would always ask people at the end of our time, I would say, what was most helpful for you here? And every single one of them would be like, the fact that you knew what I was talking about, and the fact that you said that I’m not alone.

Kathi (03:59.845)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:04.92)
Yeah.

Right, right, absolutely. Yeah, it is huge. I would say you got this situation more than I did, but I did get it some, is that people felt like their clutter got so much worse during a big life change. And I was trying to think, did that happen to me? And I was like, yeah, it absolutely did. When Moose was diagnosed with cancer,

Tonya Kubo (04:09.535)
was huge.

Kathi (04:37.185)
I have to say for about six months, I cared very little about the state of my house. I cared very little about what was going on around me. Like guys, I’ve gotten better, but I spent so much time just hanging out with her because we didn’t know what her life expect, all that kind of stuff. But after about six months, I’m like, okay, I don’t want to continue to live like this. And fortunately, I have the tools in my back pocket to be able to say.

Tonya Kubo (04:53.771)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (05:07.317)
Okay, here’s how I recover from this. But have you been through something like that in your life, Tonya?

Tonya Kubo (05:14.806)
Definitely. I mean, I think raising children, like by itself, like even not under extreme circumstances, but every phase of life brings a huge transition that involves clutter in some way. And then of course, as you know, we lost my mom very early in our decluttering journey, but that had a big impact. For us, the most recent was losing Brian’s sister.

Kathi (05:18.735)
Mm.

Kathi (05:30.062)
Yeah.

Kathi (05:41.461)
Yeah, way too young.

Tonya Kubo (05:41.822)
And I’ll share a little bit about this only because it made, it really seemed to have a profound impact on the people I spoke to one-on-one. When we lost Brian’s sister, it was really interesting to see how grief or how coping with grief is different for each person. For her husband, they had sold their home when the pandemic started and they were building their dream home.

Kathi (06:01.198)
Mmm.

Tonya Kubo (06:09.05)
And then she was diagnosed not too long after. So they had this rental that was really wrapped up in her illness that they had been living in. It really was a sick home. And so her husband really threw himself into decluttering because he wanted out of that rental home. Like there was just all sorts of bad memories. But there was this other piece of him.

Tonya Kubo (06:37.206)
What I recognized is he was so worried that there was something that was special or precious to the family that he didn’t know about. Like he didn’t know why it was precious. He didn’t know why she was keeping it because quite honestly, nobody expected to lose her at the age of 44, right? So these are, like he knew she had bins and boxes and stuff in the garage, but he never thought to ask why.

Kathi (06:54.753)
course.

Kathi (07:02.753)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (07:02.806)
So he starts going through this stuff and he wants to give it to Brian’s mom. He wants to give it to us because he’s like, I don’t wanna be responsible for it, right? And it was really soon for Brian’s mom. Like in some ways, I mean, cause that was hard for her, right? Cause she’s just lost her daughter and now she’s being like given all this stuff. And so Brian and I had a conversation. I just said, look, if he calls you and says, hey, do you want this? Just say yes.

Kathi (07:13.387)
Right.

Kathi (07:17.763)
Mmm.

Kathi (07:31.897)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (07:32.998)
We have a decluttering system in place in our home. We have a garage. We can say yes to everything, and we can deal with it later. Because the family dynamics are such, nobody expects us to keep everything forever. So we’re good there. So I said, you just say yes. Our priority was to make the decision easy for him and to trust that we had the emotional bandwidth and the space and the maturity that we could take it from there.

Kathi (08:02.917)
What a gift to him. Even if he didn’t know, what a gift.

Tonya Kubo (08:09.042)
So, yes, and it did make life so much easier, but of course that means that we very quickly had a filled garage with all sorts of random stuff.

Kathi (08:17.302)
Right.

Right, right. Well, so let me ask you, yeah, let me ask you because a lot of people are dealing with the loss of a loved one and having to deal with their stuff. I did with my dad as well. And, you know, we went through a process where there was a first layer of like, okay, we can just donate this or trash it or whatever needs to happen.

Kathi (08:48.029)
And then there was a second layer of like, okay, does anybody in the family want this? And then the third layer of, um, we have to decide if this is the memory we want to keep of my dad. And so it was a three layer process for us, but that doesn’t mean it’s right for everybody. What was it for you, Tonya? Or, or have you gone through the stuff yet?

Tonya Kubo (09:10.542)
Also, multi-layer process, yes, because a lot of it was Brian’s dad stuff. We did not realize how much of Brian’s dad stuff Megan had taken until Megan was gone and Jeremy was like, I know this was from your dad, but I don’t know much more. But like one was, it was like, oh, I have a bunch of your dad’s shirts.

Tonya Kubo (09:35.454)
and they were really special to Megan, but the boys didn’t know your dad, so the boys don’t really understand. And so I told Brian, yeah, we’ll take those. We can make a quilt out of them or something. Well, it turned out they weren’t work shirts, like Brian thought. They were racing jerseys. His dad used to race motocross. Motocross jerseys do not make good quilts, by the way, just so you know. It’s just not a good fabric, right? So Brian was like.

Kathi (09:58.996)
No they do not.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (10:04.566)
What do I do with this? And I said, well, for now, we let it sit in the garage. And I mean, it was like, I don’t know what you call this, but you know when you go to like Marshall’s and they have the clothing racks that are on wheels?

Kathi (10:15.121)
Yes, yes. Rolling racks. Okay.

Tonya Kubo (10:16.57)
I mean it was on those, yeah those rolling racks. It was like a whole rolling rack of shirts. So that’s still in my garage. Still don’t know what to do with it. But I also don’t feel like that’s a decision I have to make today. I have the available real estate, it’s fine. Now her classroom stuff, she was a teacher, Brian is a teacher. So her classroom stuff, it was very easy to process through all that.

Kathi (10:21.001)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kathi (10:30.262)
Right.

Yeah.

Kathi (10:38.902)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (10:44.106)
We said yes to all of it, then Brian went through and was like, oh, I could use this, and then we have teacher friends. So for us, that was the first layer. And of course, as you know, Kathy, the first layer is always the least emotionally connected layer.

Tonya Kubo (11:01.766)
Very easy to release classroom stuff, work stuff, right? But imagine how much space, I mean honestly that classroom stuff was taking up more space in my garage than those work shirts or than those racing jerseys are.

Kathi (11:06.274)
Yes.

Kathi (11:16.905)
Yeah, it makes so much sense. And you know, I think these big life transitions, it’s either we’re going to something new, or we’re letting go of something. And so we’re going to take a quick break, we’re going to come back. And I want to talk about what are some steps that we can do in these transitions, whether we’re going towards something. And even when you’re going towards something new, you have to let go. And I’ll talk a little bit about that.

But, excuse me. But we’re gonna take a quick break and come back to give some really practical steps of what you can do. So hang with us friends.

Okay, friends, we are back and we’re talking about what are the really practical steps when you’re going through a big life transition. This could be a marriage, it could be a death, it could be a birth, it could be kids leaving the house, it could be a divorce, it could be, there are a million different things that, job loss, new job, moving, if I didn’t say that before, and I think that was one of ours.

that was really tough. We had, we moved from San Jose to the mountains. Well, we had just redone the San Jose house. And can I tell you, it was gorgeous. It was exactly, it was everything I wanted it to be. But.

Tonya Kubo (12:40.159)
It was. I visited it. It was beautiful. That bathroom, Kathy. That upstairs bathroom.

Kathi (12:48.985)
It was phenomenal, right? It was phenomenal. Okay.

Tonya Kubo (12:50.746)
Yeah. I just need you to hear me tell you that it was beautiful. You did a great job.

Kathi (12:57.401)
Thank you so much, thank you. Every once in a while I go back and look at the Zillow pictures. I just loved it so much. And, but here’s the thing, I love my new house too, but two completely different styles. Both my style, this one is more rustic, cabernet, that kind of thing. The one in San Jose was more like teals and had a little bit of gold, which sounds weird, but it’s actually, it was gorgeous. And.

Tonya Kubo (13:07.853)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (13:26.029)
Uh, but I couldn’t really take the San Jose stuff to the summer sect. And so I have to tell you, it was a process of letting it go. A couple of things I did, which isn’t going to work for everybody, but some of that stuff that I had in San Jose, we, we also have some space at my mom’s house. So I decorated that space with some of the stuff, like the rugs and things like that, that I just loved.

We also have an RV that we put some of that stuff in. Our kids came and took some of the stuff that was really important to them. But I think the best thing that I did with that transition was just saying, we’re going into a new life and I don’t wanna be carrying this. So we put a few things on Freecycle or Facebook Marketplace.

Tonya Kubo (14:17.27)
Hmm

Kathi (14:23.009)
And we just did free because we had a short turnaround time to move. And this one young couple, they, they finally said, we’re just waiting for your ads to come up because we love everything and we have nothing. And so I just said, uh, okay, here’s the deal. I’m, I’m going to put a post-it note on everything in our house that we’re not taking and you can take it if you want.

There was not one post-it note left after all of that. They said, the woman, they had only been married for six weeks, they were sleeping on their floor. And we basically, in some ways, furnished their whole house. Because of course we had a bigger house than their one bedroom apartment. But there was a purpose.

Tonya Kubo (14:52.609)
Mm.

Tonya Kubo (15:01.455)
Oh.

Tonya Kubo (15:09.407)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:13.355)
Right.

Kathi (15:16.677)
And it wasn’t even decluttering, it was giving away huge massive things that were important to us. But I think most of us as cluttery people, if we knew the people things were going to, we would give them the shirt off our back and the racing jersey as well. So, you know, it is, when we know that it’s for a higher purpose.

Tonya Kubo (15:22.861)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (15:42.098)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (15:42.241)
So maybe the higher purpose is to lighten your load. Maybe the higher purpose is to help somebody else. What do you feel like were the lessons you’ve really learned and taken away through Megan’s death, through your father-in-law’s death and your mom’s death?

Tonya Kubo (15:59.642)
Yeah, so something you just said really resonated with me, which is clutter. You had said, you know, it’s not really decluttering. It was releasing things that just we loved, but we had no use for. And I think the big thing with these life transitions, and I think part of what makes them so hard, so emotionally difficult to journey through, is it redefines clutter for us.

Kathi (16:15.301)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (16:29.098)
Because see, typically we say clutter is something I don’t love, it’s something I don’t use, it’s something I wouldn’t buy again. And these life transitions introduce this new definition which is, this is something that I love and I would use, but for whatever reason, given the circumstances that we have, that’s not possible right now. And it doesn’t make sense.

Kathi (16:52.397)
Oh, Tonya, that’s so good.

Mm-hmm

Tonya Kubo (16:56.354)
to keep it because I don’t know when it’s going to be possible again. So going back to the one-on-one conversations that I had with some of our members, there were a lot of people I was talking to who either had some kind of major medical event. So maybe they had a child born with some very extreme medical needs. One of them had an injury or an illness that required, say, in-home health care.

Tonya Kubo (17:24.73)
anybody who’s listening who has had any experience with in-home health care knows that it’s like they bring a u-haul of medical equipment to your house right and it doesn’t matter little babies older adults it’s not always a hospital bed but sometimes the hospital bed and oxygen tanks and feeding tubes and all of these things and those things get added into this house that was already full even if it wasn’t cluttery it was full it was functional

Tonya Kubo (17:54.678)
You have this period, like you don’t want to get rid of your old life. Those things brought you joy, but there’s not room for that in the hospital bed. There’s not room for that in the ventilator or whatever else. And so something I saw my brother-in-law do that I didn’t, like I remember going, hmm, about it when he was doing it. Like they had just gotten a brand new bed and he called us up and he said, hey, by any chance, do you guys want a new bed? And we were like, and we had actually been looking for a new bed.

Kathi (18:04.29)
Right.

Tonya Kubo (18:22.89)
We’re like, yeah, like, do you want us to buy it off of you? He’s like, no. He goes, we’ve had it for three months. We love it. He goes, but I don’t, I would have to go up in size to the storage unit that we’re looking at getting in order to fit it. So that doesn’t make sense. He’s like, and I, they tell us Megan’s going to be better in 10 months, but I don’t know that she is. And when she is better, this bed may not be comfortable for her. So I think it just makes sense to get rid of it now. And I don’t think.

Kathi (18:23.214)
Oh wow.

Kathi (18:36.409)
Yeah.

Kathi (18:44.349)
Mmm.

Kathi (18:50.504)
Okay.

Tonya Kubo (18:53.11)
my cluttery heart would have had that kind of like logical thought process that Jeremy had. I mean, he was he’s so like wise. I don’t even think he knows how wise he is. But I thought, wow, that is really like that’s just wisdom right there to go, hey, it’s not that I expect to be here forever. But I know that when I’m not here, life is going to be so different that the stuff that’s working now may not work then.

Kathi (19:21.797)
As soon as you’re saying, I’m going to have to go up in size on the storage unit, it’s time to reconsider everything. Yeah, when we sold our house in San Jose, we said we are keeping this storage unit for a month. For a month. You know, because this is stuff we want to bring to the house, but we can’t bring it all at once. And we kept that promise. I was really, really proud of us.

Tonya Kubo (19:29.722)
Right.

Tonya Kubo (19:38.957)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (19:52.165)
turns into a year, turns into five years. But we need to make our lives lighter because we can make better decisions when our life is lighter. You know, you and I just had a circumstance this, like today, where you were supposed to come to my house, you can’t, so Roger and I are like, you know what? You know me, if I could, I would adopt every goat.

Tonya Kubo (20:00.27)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (20:21.729)
every dog, every cat, everything. But we have fewer chickens now because that’s just what happens to chickens sometimes. It’s the circle of life. And we have a dog and we’re like, you know what? Tonya can’t come here. We’re gonna go to Tonya. And it’s because we have lightened our life. And sometimes that’s through circumstances we would not have chosen.

Tonya Kubo (20:29.326)
because that’s the circle of life.

Kathi (20:50.189)
but we are intentionally keeping our lives lighter so that we can do the things we wanna do. And that’s something we wanna do. What do you think is the most important thing that somebody can take away from this conversation? Especially after seeing how wise Jeremy has been and how you don’t wanna repeat the sins of your mother and you have this different example. What would you want somebody to take away from this conversation?

Tonya Kubo (20:52.578)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (21:13.816)
Right.

Tonya Kubo (21:19.722)
Well, I think for me the biggest is that certain life transitions do warrant a new definition for what clutter is. What’s clutter today?

Kathi (21:32.073)
I think that’s so wise.

Tonya Kubo (21:35.814)
may not have been cluttered five years ago, and it may not be cluttered five years from now, but because you don’t know that, it makes sense and it is smart and it is wise to treat it like the clutter it is today.

Kathi (21:38.657)
Mmm.

Kathi (21:51.477)
It’s not that the thing is clutter, it’s that the item in the midst of today’s circumstances is clutter and something that you need to lighten your life. This has been such a great conversation, Tonya. Thank you so, so much.

I just think this is exactly what we need to hear. Because when we buy things, we’re like, oh my goodness. This is the most important thing. And I’ll always love it. I’ll always want it. And then job changes happen. And we live in a time now where if you need to furnish your house for free, you could pretty much do it. Because.

Tonya Kubo (22:47.566)
True.

Kathi (22:49.413)
It may not be with the stuff you want. And so we have to decide, do I love it? Do I use it? Would I buy it again right now? Right now, I think that that’s a great question to ask. And one of the things, guys, if you’re part of our newsletter community, we are going to be publishing this week a checklist for decluttering when moving or downsizing. And so,

Tonya Kubo (23:00.086)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (23:14.774)
Mmm.

Kathi (23:16.377)
We want you to, if we’re gonna put all the information so that you can become a part of our newsletter community so that you can have that resource for the next time you’re going through something, whether it’s moving or you just need to downsize, whatever that is, we’re gonna give you that checklist to help you make decisions in, because when you’re moving, you’re already having to make a thousand decisions, let this eliminate another thousand.

Tonya, thanks for being on today.

Tonya Kubo (23:46.85)
Thanks for having me.

Kathi (23:48.565)
And friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Cathy Lip. Now, go create the clutter-free life you were always intended to live.

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Clutter Free books and resources

#594 What I Learned About Clutter in 2023 that Will Change My Relationship with Stuff in 2024 Part 2

by Clutter Free Academy Team | Dec 5, 2023 | Clutter Free, Clutter Free For Life, Clutter Free Home, Clutter Free Podcast, Podcast, Relationships | 0 comments

Listen Now

594 – What I Learned About Clutter in 2023 that Will Change My Relationship with Stuff in 2024: Part 2

Do you struggle with trusting yourself when it comes to living clutter-free?

Kathi Lipp and her cohost Tonya Kubo are here for you! In part 2 of “What I Learned About Clutter in 2023 that Will Change My Relationship with Stuff in 2024,” Kathi and Tonya give us tips #2 and #3 to know and trust yourself regarding your clutter-free journey.

Listen in and learn:

The importance of community
Kathi and Tonya’s personal challenges with clutter
Kathi’s solution to the problem that plagues so many of us!

Kathi mentions the virtual Abundant Home Conference that is a BONUS when you sign up for Clutter-Free for Life. You’ll find that information here.

Want to know tip #1 from Part 1 of today’s episode? Click here.

Be sure to sign up here and be notified when the next episode is released.

Join Clutter Free for Life Today!

What if you were able to create a life where you not only got rid of the clutter in each room of your house but were able to stay on top of it?

What if you learned to organize in a way that made sense to you so that once you decluttered, you could find the things that were important enough to keep?

What if you could live in a house that was at peace?

You’ve been thinking about how this will be the year to finally declutter your house and create the home you’ve always dreamed of. One that is filled with peace instead of stuff.

Is the idea of changing your home something you’d like to start working on? Because, right now, I have a plan that will show you how: Clutter Free for Life

The Clutter Free for Life annual membership is on sale right now for $118 (regular price is $299 or $24.99 per month) from Nov. 28 to Dec. 8. It returns to its regular price on Dec. 9, so join today!

Links Mentioned:

Tonya Kubo

Clutter Free For Life

Favorites:

Learn more about Clutter Free for Life

Do you have a wrapping paper solution? Share your answer in the comments!

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Meet Our Guest

Tonya Kubo

Tonya Kubo is the illustrious and fearless leader of Kathi Lipp’s Clutter Free Academy Facebook group and the Clutter Free for Life membership program. A speaker and writer, Tonya makes her home in the heart of California with her husband, Brian, their two spirited daughters, and one very tolerant cat. Visit her at www.tonyakubo.com.

Transcript

(time stamps reflect the recording being one recording edited into two pieces)
Kathi (14:50.978)
Okay, number two, the second thing I’ve learned, and I feel like you’ve been the main instructor to me on this, but I see it coming through in my own life. This is gonna be a mantra in Clutterfree forever, is trust your creativity. Okay, Tanya, I’ll share how it changed.

Tonya Kubo (15:09.708)
Ha ha

Kathi (15:17.507)
my thinking but I want to hear from you first because I really heard this from you.

Tonya Kubo (15:18.261)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (15:23.896)
It’s like…

We’re so afraid. So you have said before, clutter oftentimes is closeted perfectionism, right? We’re so afraid of doing things wrong, right? And so what ends up happening, and I’m just gonna speak from my own perspective, because growing up with a hoarder for a mom, it took a while, but at some point in my mid-20s, I realized I did not have a picture.

Kathi (15:34.41)
Yes, 100%.

Kathi (15:40.33)
Mm-hmm

Tonya Kubo (15:53.724)
of what like a normal house looked like and how that normal house looked normal, like day in day out, right? And so you’re, you know, I’m doing what everybody does. I’m subscribing to Martha Stewart magazine and real simple. And that was back in the days before Pinterest. But you know, once Pinterest came along, I’ve got the Pinterest boards and I’m constantly trying to make every space I live in look like these pictures when I don’t live in a space that looks like those pictures. I’ve lived in two houses now that don’t

Kathi (15:58.99)
Mm-hmm, right.

Kathi (16:17.514)
Yeah. No.

Tonya Kubo (16:22.252)
have like two closets in the whole house. And so the idea of trusting your own creativity came from when I hired a professional organizer at a real, to me, a very outrageous rate. And she came in and she was like, I can’t do anything, you don’t have storage. And so the whole appointment was spent with her and an Ikea catalog going through all the storage solutions I needed. And that was the first time I thought, oh.

Kathi (16:25.09)
Right.

Tonya Kubo (16:51.132)
It’s not me, it’s the space. And then I need to think about how I use this space, how I want to use this space. And you know what, how I use spaces, Kathy, doesn’t look like any Pinterest board I’ve ever seen. But it works for me. So that’s where I came up with the whole, like, okay, I just have to trust my own creativity. And if somebody else has a more creative solution, I am here for it, but I’m not gonna try to live my life according to magazines anymore.

Kathi (16:52.714)
Right. Yeah.

Kathi (16:57.838)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (17:05.514)
No, no, yes.

Kathi (17:11.84)
Yes.

Kathi (17:15.789)
Yes.

Kathi (17:20.042)
Well, let me tell you how it has changed me is I don’t need to keep all the stuff I’m keeping just in case. I don’t know if this is a problem for anybody else or it’s just me, wrapping paper. Why is wrapping paper

Tonya Kubo (17:21.99)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (17:41.916)
No, that is a problem for everybody. Okay, I’m sure there’s like 200 people on the planet it’s not a problem for. But wrapping paper in the US, it’s a thing.

Kathi (17:49.044)
Yeah, okay.

It’s a real thing. And finally, I was like, okay, I feel dumb because I’ve had some of this wrapping paper for 10 years. What is going on? What is my damage? And then I get, that’s the Christmas wrapping paper and then it comes time to wrap a birthday present and I have no wrapping paper, none, none whatsoever. So like one of the things I have done now is I buy red and cream checked paper.

and that if it’s your birthday, you get red and cream checked paper. If it’s Christmas, if it’s Valentine’s, if it’s 4th of July, that is the paper you’re getting. And so I, but I was always afraid of using up the rest of my Christmas paper. And it’s like, no, Cathy, there’s an endless supply of Christmas paper that you will never be without. But also, if I needed to wrap something, I…

I could wrap it in a piece of fabric. I could hide it in a closet with a big bow on it. Like there are a thousand ways to give a gift. I don’t need to have, you know, there are people who have gift wrapping rooms. I don’t give that many gifts. I think I’m a generous person, but no, I do not give that many gifts. And right, right?

Tonya Kubo (18:52.322)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (19:09.27)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (19:15.592)
I don’t have that many rooms in my house.

Kathi (19:19.942)
And so, but I trust my own creativity. I don’t need to have every ingredient under the sun because I don’t have to make that kind of risotto. I can trust my creativity. If I’m making asparagus risotto and I don’t have asparagus, broccoli will work. Like I trust myself to figure these things out. I don’t need to have a hundred different options that I am.

Tonya Kubo (19:39.096)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (19:48.746)
I’m a wise, creative, thinking person. And if I can’t think of another solution, you know what I can do? I can Google another solution. You know, I don’t have buttermilk. Well, I can pour some vinegar into real milk and we’re gonna be fine. Like I can trust myself that I can come, I can solve the issue at hand. And I don’t have to keep everything everywhere all the time.

And I think that that’s pretty genius. Okay, and this is number three. I have to know my challenges so I can adapt. This is kind of like your Ikea thing. The Ikea catalog. You didn’t realize the challenge that was before you was not that Tanya’s stupid, not that Tanya can’t figure it out, not that Tanya isn’t brilliant, it’s that Tanya has no storage.

Tonya Kubo (20:19.677)
Exactly.

Tonya Kubo (20:42.324)
I’m sorry.

Tonya Kubo (20:48.938)
Well, I really thought I was lazy, right? Like, and now organizers like, I don’t know how you’re so lazy, you’re not going to make storage. Like, that doesn’t even make sense.

Kathi (20:50.926)
Right? Yeah.

Kathi (20:56.99)
Yeah, right? So knowing that challenge, you know, right now, I’m going through a little back challenge. And it’s like, OK, you know what? So I’m going to have a really hard time bending over to grab things right now. Well, you know what? I just ordered like a, I did, like an octatigerian. And you know what? There are 80-year-olds who are way more limber than I am.

Tonya Kubo (21:16.845)
You ordered to grab her! You ordered to grab her!

Kathi (21:25.782)
But I ordered a grabber! Because…

Tonya Kubo (21:28.524)
I was gonna order one last year when I had surgery. And if I’d known I wasn’t gonna be able to sit up for two weeks, I totally would have done that. Yeah.

Kathi (21:31.719)
Yes!

Kathi (21:37.01)
Yeah, right. You know what? There will and as a vertically well, no, I’m not vertically challenged I am 5’6 and the national average for women is 5’5 But our homes are not built for the average height neither are women’s pants But that’s another rant that we will talk about another day Yeah, yes But you know what? There are sometimes things I need on the top shelf and right now i’m using extra long tongs

Tonya Kubo (21:56.824)
253, I get it, I get it.

Kathi (22:06.502)
Maybe I could upgrade just a little bit from there. Excuse me. Dude, I have the combo. I have the step stool and the extra long tongs. Like I’ve got it all over. Like to get into my bathtub, I’ve got a step stool. Okay, so recently we went on vacation with some friends, Susie and Robert, and they have a giant truck.

Tonya Kubo (22:06.787)
Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (22:11.42)
I use a step stool. Always have a step stool. I should just carry it with me, because I’m always…

Kathi (22:35.49)
And it’s, yes. So I had to carry around my little step stool all through, every time we stopped at Yosemite so that I could get out. And Moose is looking at like, come on, mom, let’s go. It’s just the stupidest thing, it really was. Okay, but know your challenges. So besides the lack of space, what would you say?

Tonya Kubo (22:35.776)
They do. I’ve seen that truck.

Tonya Kubo (22:41.211)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (22:47.032)
Ha ha ha!

Kathi (23:03.922)
I’ll tell you one of my challenges and I want to hear another one of yours, but one of mine Well, this is one we share we both had hoarders as parents And so, you know we had to we had to relearn what that looked like I will also say one of my challenges and I want to hear yours is That I am not very visual, you know There’s that test that’s been going around on social media when you close your eyes. Yeah, I can’t picture anything

Tonya Kubo (23:29.384)
Yeah, fail.

Kathi (23:33.618)
You know, one is like, I can imagine the whole scene and five is it’s all darkness. And I’m a, it’s all darkness girl. And so I really think that I cannot visualize what a space is going to look like. And that’s a challenge for me. So I have to ask my more talented friends. And I just wish I was hipper, but that’s not it. What do you feel like one of your challenges is?

Tonya Kubo (23:38.962)
Hahaha

Tonya Kubo (23:46.988)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (23:51.518)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (23:57.532)
Okay, so this is straight up child of a hoarder is I so I call it living small and I love the fact that I’m married to a man who I was able to explain it to him and he gets it. I there’s rooms I won’t go into for months or like if I go into the garage I will genuinely not see anything in the garage with the washer and dryer because that’s what I went in there for and then one day I go out there and where’d all this stuff come from Kathy lip.

Kathi (24:00.372)
Okay.

Kathi (24:26.338)
Right.

Tonya Kubo (24:26.756)
Why is it like this? And I’m losing my marbles. It had been there the whole time. I just didn’t see it. So like the other day, I go to open a window. I have a window by my bed, but it’s on the opposite side that I sleep on. And up until about, say the bottom of the mattress is just this big pile of clothes and toys. Abby had been over there. She like plays over there. Well, I never go over there. I had no idea.

Kathi (24:38.636)
Yeah.

Kathi (24:55.096)
Ah.

Tonya Kubo (24:57.868)
right? And Brian is just like, that has been a slow building pile for about three months now, Tonya. But it’s like it may as well be the end of the earth, Kathy. I just never go on the opposite side of the bed. And so it’s one of those things that I’ve been working on in 2023 is visiting every part of my- my house is small people, my house is two bedrooms, but making sure I visit every part of my house like at least every other day.

Kathi (25:08.471)
Right.

Kathi (25:18.839)
Right.

Kathi (25:26.398)
Yeah, this is not Wadsworth mansion, guys. This is.

Tonya Kubo (25:29.093)
No it’s not! The other side of the bed is like, you know, I never have to go there. Bray, it’s like, why do you think I like jump from the bottom of the bed? I’m like, I don’t know, I just thought that’s how you like to get in bed.

Kathi (25:46.158)
Oh my goodness. Okay, you’re killing me. You’re killing me. Okay.

Tonya Kubo (25:49.408)
So I just want to point out, I am not just the leader of Clutterfree Academy, I am still a card carrying member.

Kathi (25:56.734)
Yes, but you know what, but isn’t your life better than it was before? Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (26:00.304)
Oh, it’s so much better. Well, you know what? It’s so much better because I’m not alone. I mean, I tell people that all the time when they join Calligraphy Academy because they’re like, you know, I am the only person who blah, blah. And like, no, you’re not. We got like 14,999 other people here just like you who thought they were the only person. I thought I was the only person for years. And yeah. And so I love our community because they remind me how far I’ve come, but they also remind me how far I have to go.

Kathi (26:18.09)
Right. Yeah.

Kathi (26:29.898)
Yes. Now earlier you mentioned that in Clutter Free for Life, which is our paid program, we get a little bit deeper, a little bit more intentional, there’s a little bit more accountability. What really is the difference between Clutter Free Academy, which is our free program, and Clutter Free for Life?

Tonya Kubo (26:36.553)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (26:51.588)
You know, Clutterfree Academy is come one, come all, right? You can be any stage of clutter. You can be on the hoarding spectrum, whatever. You say you have a clutter problem, we believe you. That’s fine. And you can focus on your clutter. You can not focus on your clutter. That’s fine too. In Clutterfree Academy, so that is for, you know, I always say it, I built, you built it too, but you know, I’ve always taken ownership over it. I’m like, I built the program I desperately needed.

Kathi (27:17.037)
Please.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (27:20.86)
Um, which is there’s not just a lot more accountability, but we’re pretty blunt about it. We get that life happens, but this is a program for people who are ready for clutter to be a today battle and not a someday battle. And I don’t say like, like we don’t kick somebody out because they broke their leg and can’t move around for six months. And we just had a member who isn’t allowed to put any weight on her leg. Right. That’s not what I mean, but it’s not a place where.

Kathi (27:34.925)
Right.

Tonya Kubo (27:48.204)
people aren’t actively pursuing a different relationship with their stuff. So that’s the first thing. So everybody in there is just as committed to you are. They’re just as focused on progress over perfection. There’s no armchair experts who want to tell everybody else how to live. I mean, we don’t really have that in Clutterfree Academy either, but… And there’s tools. I’m very protective of my cluttery people. You cannot be mean to my people.

Kathi (28:07.018)
We may, but we squash them down and kick them out.

Kathi (28:15.976)
Yes, you are

Tonya Kubo (28:18.624)
But in Clutterfree for life, you know, I get, I get it. I get that you wake up every day overwhelmed and feeling like you have lost before you ever started the race. And so we have a calendar that gives you a focus for every single day. We have tracking sheets for those who like to keep track. You know, one thing that came up in Clutterfree Academy recently, cause we shared one of the members only tracking sheets in there. People were like, oh my gosh, that’s so overwhelming. I don’t wanna count stuff. It’s like, if it doesn’t work for you, that’s fine.

Kathi (28:29.015)
Right.

Tonya Kubo (28:48.576)
But in Clutter Free for Life, we’ve developed these resources that kind of work with every sort of brain type. There’s the people that like to check boxes. There’s the people that don’t want to check boxes. There’s the people who need to be told, this is what you’re doing today. There’s the people who want more freedom. We’ve got something for all of them. And then the other thing that I feel like, so there’s two things, because I’m not a checklisty person. The two things that I think are most valuable is, first and foremost, it’s the community. It’s the other people.

Kathi (29:10.342)
Right.

Kathi (29:17.806)
Hmm

Tonya Kubo (29:18.016)
rolling up their sleeves, doing the same thing you’re doing in a different house, in a different town, in a different state, sometimes a different country at the same time. There is so much community. Like, I mean, it’s like we have men and women, so I don’t wanna say it’s a sisterhood or a brotherhood, but it’s a fraternal organization of cluttering people is what it is.

Kathi (29:25.119)
Right.

Kathi (29:38.142)
Right. Yes.

Tonya Kubo (29:40.72)
And then we have the coaching and see, and that’s where we go deep. Every week we do a coaching session and it’s not the kind of coaching that some people, it’s not like a Facebook Live. We do Facebook Lives a lot in Clutterfree Academy, but we actually all get together on Zoom. We see each other’s faces. We’re in our real life spaces. Some people don’t put their camera on because they’re not comfortable with people knowing how they live. That’s fine, we don’t judge them. But that’s where we talk about like, how do you apply what we’re trying to do here?

Kathi (29:58.99)
Mm-hmm, which is fine.

Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (30:10.504)
in clutter-free academy to the daily ups and downs of life. How do you have a clutter-free home when you have a medically fragile child and that child has more medical equipment than you have space in any room in your house? What does that look like? What does it look like when your water heater blows up and everything that was in your basement now needs to be moved somewhere else? Those are the kinds of problems we solve and they seem silly to some people, but they’re real.

Kathi (30:23.263)
Right?

Yeah.

Kathi (30:29.285)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (30:33.037)
Yeah.

Tonya Kubo (30:39.676)
and they’re deep and I love the fact that it’s a small enough group that we can serve at that level.

Kathi (30:41.07)
video.

Kathi (30:46.49)
Yes. And so, you know, guys in clutter free for life, there is coaching every single week, you can take advantage of it, or you can do it when you need it. There is accountability. And there are people to cheer you on when you’re making progress and to help you up when you’ve fallen down because that happens too. But in clutter free for life, people are making a real difference, not just in their homes, but in their lives. And it’s incredibly cool to see.

Tonya Kubo (31:12.536)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (31:15.782)
A year membership, well, year membership normally is, it’s normally month to month. The rest of the year it’s month to month, right? Oh, oh that’s right. Okay, so yes, but yes, I got a little confused there, but it’s going on sale. So Tanya, can you give us the deal on that?

Tonya Kubo (31:23.616)
Well, you can buy it, no, you can buy it annually for $299 a year.

Tonya Kubo (31:30.749)
Or $24.99 a month.

Tonya Kubo (31:39.943)
Yes. So from November 28th until December, I’m looking at my calendar right now, December 8th, so November 28th to December 8th, you can get the annual plan for $118. So that is $118 a year. The price.

of the membership when you enroll is the price that you were grandfathered in forever. So it will automatically renew every year at one 18 a year. It’s less than 10 bucks a month. And and I always because I like I’ll be honest, there’s no membership I’ve ever joined Kathy that I have done 11 out of 12 months. Right. So I love the fact that at under $10 a month, you get hurt, something happens and you need to take a few months off. You don’t feel like all is lost.

And we’re so nice. Like you just come back in and you say, hey, I’m restarting. And we’re like, okay, how can we help? Where can we jump in? Let’s do it. And you’ve got a great team there. You know, you’re coaching in person, like in person by Zoom twice a month. We’ve got Deanna, we’ve got Grace, you’ve got me. We’ve got like a whole off Facebook platform. It’s just an incredible time.

Kathi (32:48.45)
Yeah, it really is. And so guys, oh, and we have one other little fun bonus that if you wanna join us.

Tonya Kubo (32:56.504)
Oh yes, why do I always forget that? In March, so you join now, but in March, you get to go to the Abundant Home Conference for free. That is a virtual half-day conference. So about every hour on the hour, give or take, we have a new session that starts and we’re talking about gardening, we’re talking about home, we’re talking about like all sorts of things because the problem…

Kathi (33:01.28)
Yes.

Kathi (33:07.991)
guess.

Kathi (33:15.007)
Mm-hmm.

Tonya Kubo (33:25.212)
that we discovered early on, right, Kathy, is everybody wants to delay living until their house looks a certain way. And so the Abundant Home Conference is really about appreciating and loving the space you live in during the journey.

Kathi (33:30.698)
Yeah. Right. And.

Kathi (33:40.534)
Yeah, we’re not about that life. We’re not waiting to live until you can eat off our floors. And who wants to eat off of floors anyway, guys? So yeah, not me. So here’s the deal, guys. The link is in the show notes. And you just click over there. You’ll get it for 118. There’s a 30 day, no questions asked, money back guarantee. And guys, it’s…

Tonya Kubo (33:43.208)
Yeah.

Kathi (34:10.438)
it’s changing lives. So we’re really going to encourage you to jump over there. Tanya, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Tonya Kubo (34:17.085)
Thanks for having me and I’ll say one more thing, my contact information is also going to be in the show notes and if you have questions about the program, if you’re not sure if it’s for you, if you’re worried about anything, just drop me a line, I’d be happy to talk to you.

Kathi (34:30.07)
I love that. You know what, guys, I highly recommend. Talking to Tanya is awesome. So yeah, go and ask her any of the questions. Tanya, thanks so much for being here today.

Tonya Kubo (34:40.876)
Thanks for having me.

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