#643 Before It’s Too Late: Why Now is the Time to Deal with Your Clutter

#643 Before It’s Too Late: Why Now is the Time to Deal with Your Clutter

643 – Before It’s Too Late: Why Now is the Time to Deal with Your Clutter

Have you ever looked around your home and felt that knot in your stomach, thinking, “I don’t want to leave this mess for my kids.”

In this poignant episode, Kathi Lipp welcomes literary agent and editor Kathleen Kerr to share her experience cleaning out her great aunt’s home. After her great aunt’s passing, Kathleen and her family faced the overwhelming task of sorting through decades of accumulated items in a historic Maine farmhouse where nothing had left since the 1930s. Kathleen discusses how her family approached this daunting project, working in teams to tackle different rooms while processing their grief and complex emotions.

Listeners will discover:

  • How to navigate family dynamics when dealing with heirlooms
  • The importance of asking for help before situations become unmanageable
  • How this experience has changed Kathleen’s own approach to keeping family mementos.

The episode offers practical advice for listeners who might face similar situations, while also providing a compassionate look at how hoarding affects both the individual and their loved ones.

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An “old-school” family bathroom where even the littlest family members had their own special spot. Just one of the many treasures Kathleen’s family discovered after going through her great aunt’s possessions.

 

Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest

Kathi Lipp gives readers an easy-to-follow process for meal planning and prep, so that they can enjoy a full day each week of real rest and refreshment.

Could you use a break from cooking (and everything else) once a week? Not only is rest vital for your mind and body, it’s good for your soul too. God designed us to enter into Sabbath rest one day per week, but as you know, meals still need to be made. Your family still needs to be fed.

Sabbath Soup includes convenient, seasonal meal plans that take the guesswork out of shopping and cooking. More than just a collection of delicious recipes—including main dishes, breads, breakfasts, desserts, salads, sides, and yes, soups—this is your guide to establishing a weekly rhythm and routine of meal planning and prep that allows you to have a true day off.

Do something good for your soul and experience the peace that comes with a full day dedicated to spending time with God, family, and friends. Savor your Sabbath as you proudly proclaim, “Soup’s on!”

Order your copy of Sabbath Soup: Weekly Menus and Rhythms to Make Space for a Day of Rest here.

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Have you ever experienced the emotional weight of sorting through someone else’s lifetime of belongings?

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Meet Our Guests

 

Kathleen Kerr

Kathleen Kerr is an agent with Alive Literary. Before joining Alive, Kathleen served as an acquisitions editor at Zondervan and Harvest House Publishers. She works with bestselling, debut, and award-winning authors, helping to refine their messages, build their careers, and partner in their ministries

Connect with Alive Literacy at www.aliveliterary.com.

 

Tonya Kubo Picture
Transcript

Kathi (00:01.484)

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And today I wanna introduce you to an old friend of mine, but a new friend to the Clutter-Free side of podcasting. It’s Kathleen Kerr. Kathleen, welcome to the podcast.

Kathleen (00:20.924)

Thanks so much for having me today, Kathi.

Kathi (00:22.764)

Well, thank you for being here. Now, if people know you and me, they’d say you’re on the wrong podcast girl. Because as we also know, I have the writing at the Red House podcast where we talk all things writing. And Kathleen, in addition to being my agent, was my editor for years and years and years. And so we have had many a book conversation, many a writing conversation, many a marketing conversation. But

Kathleen (00:30.606)

You

Kathi (00:51.166)

You recently took a trip out east where you and I are both on the West Coast, all in the name of decluttering. And so this is your aunt who had passed away, correct? And your great aunt. Okay, so tell me a little bit about the situation. Why you?

Kathleen (01:06.248)

This is my great aunt. Yes.

Kathi (01:17.746)

What did you know you were getting into and what were you surprised that you were getting into?

Kathleen (01:23.336)

Cool, Glory. So this is my great aunt. And she had inherited a house from her parents. And nothing that came into that house since that family got the land in the 30s ever left the house. So my great aunt passed away. Her intention had been to leave it to my mother. My mother had passed away before her, so it went to my father instead.

When she passed away, we knew that we were going to have to clean out the house. And we had been there many times. I grew up every summer spending a few weeks on that property, spending a few weeks with her. And it was a dear, dear part of my childhood, very formative for me. This is land that my grandmother had grown up on, that my great-grandmother had lived and died on. It’s a really very, I mean, it’s sacred ground for me, for my family.

Kathi (02:20.046)

You’re right.

Kathleen (02:22.37)

And we knew that the house was bad. We could see the clutter growing over the years, but there were doors that always remained closed. When she died in May, I went into the house after her funeral and opened some of those doors and was swiftly overcome by a biological need to put on a mask and get out of there because I realized just how bad it was.

Kathi (02:33.25)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (02:48.398)

you

Kathleen (02:51.304)

at that point. Well, I think I realized about 75 % of how bad it was. So this past summer, I took my daughters out east, we went back to Maine, and I joined my father and a brother and his wife, some aunts and uncles, some cousins, just a whole crew of people that were all going to go through the house together. And we were beyond overwhelmed, all of us knowing how bad it was.

Kathi (02:57.282)

Hmm.

Kathleen (03:19.036)

We were overwhelmed by truly how unspeakable it was and really, truly overcome by grief again, grief that she had lived like that for so long, that she had not allowed any beauty into her life, that her private spaces were so full of junk. It felt self-punishing to me. It was truly hard to see it.

Kathi (03:28.622)

night.

Kathi (03:42.414)

Hmm.

Kathleen (03:46.012)

But our task in that week was just to go through enough of the clutter that we could be confident that we had everything that we could possibly save that we would want, family history, postcards, that we had everything so that we could just hire junk removal. It took a lot of dumpsters to get to that point.

Kathi (04:06.122)

Wow. Wow. it feels so completely overwhelming. And like you said, it feels sad that, you know, I’ve got some people in my life and, that want to make changes right before they sell the house. And I’m like, but I want you to be comfortable now. I want you to have, you know,

be surrounded by things that make you happy now. And I think that, you know, it’s so hard to help people see that that’s a possibility. How do you think your aunt got to that place? I know you’re not a psychologist, I know, but I’m just wondering, do you know how it got to be like that?

Kathleen (05:00.698)

It was little bit over a little bit over time and she kept closing off more doors. She couldn’t, and I do think this is generational as well because it wasn’t just once her parents died and she had the run of the house, the problem started. The problem had started before that. And certainly there’s some of the depression mentality that I’m sure you’ve talked about in this space, but it was far beyond that. was every piece of paper, every envelope, nothing, nothing.

Kathi (05:05.836)

Yeah.

Kathi (05:16.726)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi (05:22.124)

Yes, we have.

Kathleen (05:30.46)

was thrown out. had, you we found, I’m sure people have, these stories won’t surprise you, but we found, you know, those little cups of applesauce that you can get the little plastic containers. We found stacks of those cups that were in the pantry. Alongside really beautiful heirlooms, this place used to be a dairy farm and I found glass pint jars that were stamped with, you know, one pint in the name of the farm, the family name. That’s a treasure to me at that

Kathi (05:30.648)

Mm.

Kathi (05:36.878)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kathi (05:58.102)

Right, of course.

Kathleen (05:59.964)

But it got to the point that we realized she hadn’t taken care of anything for so long that I couldn’t start. There was so little I could take. And even as I was throwing things away, I’m throwing away dumpsters full of items, much of which I think is would have value to someone, would have monetary value, has intrinsic value. And I’m tossing it all because I couldn’t start caring.

Kathi (06:21.185)

Right?

Kathleen (06:28.646)

when she hadn’t taken care of it for six decades.

Kathi (06:30.924)

Yeah, right. Yeah, I think that there is this idea that I can’t do it, so I’ll leave it for the next generation. And but I’m also going to judge how you take care of it or how you dispose of it or how you give it away. And we have to break those expectations because, you know, yes, there may have been.

depression, may have been other psychological factors going in, but I cannot care more than you did. I just can’t. And so we have to be able to say, you know, these things were not this person. And yes, it’s great if we can keep a few things that bring back beautiful memories of that person, but we can’t be responsible for categorizing a person’s entire life in those situations.

So I wanna get really practical here, Kathleen. You know what, actually, I wanna take a quick break. We’re gonna go pay some bills. And when we come back, I wanna get to the practical side of how you and your family approach this overwhelming task and how you were able to break it down. So we’re gonna go do that and we’ll be back in just a moment.

Hey there, we’re back here on Clutterfree Academy with Kathleen Kerr, my agent, but also the survivor.

of somebody who has had to deal with a hoarder’s house. I mean, that’s really where we are right now. So Kathleen, let’s get, because many of us are gonna have to face this. If it’s not our parents, it may be a sibling, it may be a child, it might be a grandparent, an aunt or uncle, but many of us, as we start to lose family members are going to be the, or the family member has to transition into assisted living or something like that.

We are going to be the ones who have to make sense of all of this. And so can you give me, you said you felt overwhelmed. You felt like, you know, that this was just too big of a task. So tell us how you even started to approach it and how did your plan change as you got into it.

Kathleen (08:51.88)

Oof. So yeah, the organization, just the brainstorming, how can we manage all of this? And I don’t have the luxury, my whole family doesn’t have the luxury of this is just across town or this is an hour drive away. This is a seven-hour plane ride for me to get to this space. and the closest other relatives who are involved in all of this are a 12-hour drive away. So this is not.

Kathi (09:08.696)

Yeah.

Kathleen (09:17.828)

A simple, can do this over a year on the odd weekend. Someone can just run over. This was, we have a finite period of time. We are all here for a week. We need to get done what we can get done in a week. So this was the first get-in and do-the-triage kind of time. So we went in and we split up into teams. We called them Team One and Team A.

Kathi (09:26.478)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (09:41.802)

Hahaha!

Kathleen (09:43.376)

of splitting up teams into Team One and team A may tell you something about the competitive nature of my family. But that kind of devolved into, we sort of split up into just groups of two. And it was, let’s pick a room and let’s get these rooms in some kind of order. Let’s go through, let’s just get this one room first of all. Let’s get this clean so that this is someplace that we can have.

Kathi (09:49.109)

Absolutely.

Kathleen (10:09.222)

We can set things up. can not really stage things, but we can set up a few things for someone from an estate sale to come in just to make some evaluations. We stationed the younger, stronger guys by the dumpster so they could be tossing things in. There were people who were like, OK, I’m really eager to see what’s up in that front attic. And that was a place of horror, let me tell you. That’s where we found all the Nazi memorabilia. And that was.

Kathi (10:37.577)

lean.

Kathleen (10:38.524)

We’re assuming that this was a war trophy from a great uncle of some kind, but there was a lot of Nazi stuff in there. Anyway, well, we had some bingo parts about who’s gonna find the most racist thing that used to be considered charmingly folksy.

Kathi (10:47.854)

Kathi (10:54.742)

Kathleen my grandfather, was part of The Hitler Youth so we all have those relatives, right? We all have those Yeah

Kathleen (11:03.176)

We all have the relatives. I’ve got them too. My maiden name is Schmidt. You can tell that we, yep, Yep, yep. So yeah, we split up and it was actually, I’m just gonna say, one of the better times I’ve ever spent with my extended family. It was so hard, but it was so good to have a project to work on with these people. Because frequently, I mean, for the last, what, 15 years,

Kathi (11:08.066)

Yeah, Von Campen, I get it.

Kathi (11:27.064)

Yeah.

Kathleen (11:30.544)

My aunts and uncles and cousins, I live on the opposite coast from them. They’re in a different country, actually. So I see them at weddings and funerals quickly, briefly catching up. But to have an actual project to work on, and it’s not just, hey, how’s it going, but how are we going to solve this problem together was a great bonding experience. So yeah.

Kathi (11:39.553)

Yeah.

Kathi (11:52.28)

Kathleen, let me ask, how did you handle it when you disagreed about how to handle something?

Kathleen (11:58.708)

good grief. We had those moments. I am, and a lot of my other family members are extremely practical about this stuff. I knew it was going to be a problem walking into, you know, going into the space. There was going to be so much that I saw that would look like a treasure. And I knew I wouldn’t have time to curate. And my whole methodology as I was going in was touch it once, make a decision about it, touch it once. And then it’s going in the bag to the dumpster.

Kathi (12:24.332)

Yeah.

Kathleen (12:27.746)

or it’s going in, my daughter was there, my nine-year-old daughter was there, so she had a pile of treasures that she was making. So it goes in her treasure pile or it goes to the dumpster. Those are the only two options. There were other family members there who had a very different approach. And for them, it was touch it and hold it and think about it and think about the person and think about the history and then be overwhelmed by love for that history and not be able to put it in any of the piles.

Kathi (12:56.429)

Right.

Kathleen (12:57.18)

And there were some big disagreements. And there were times that we would just defer to each other. If you care about it that much, it’s gonna go to your home. You can have that. We did find there were a few items. I mean, this was sweet. There’s my great -grandparents marriage certificate was framed and hung up above their marriage bed. I thought it was lovely. And I was like, I kinda like to have that. And my dad too was like, I’ve always wanted to have that.

Kathi (13:18.958)

Awwww.

Kathleen (13:25.978)

And ultimately my aunt mentioned as well, I really kind of love to have that. And, or she didn’t even say it that boldly. I think it was just, I always remember looking at that and thinking how nice it was. And she was the one who actually remembered both of those great-grandparents. So it went to her. So I think we were all in the end really good about just being deferential about those things. was so much that everyone could get something.

Kathi (13:40.942)

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Right. you know, I think about it, there are, you if you think about a bullseye, you know, there are people who are closer to that center of the bullseye who have had those life experiences with the great grandparents with, and yeah, it makes sense that, you know, the people who are closest to the center get a little bit more weight in some of those decisions as long as they’re willing to follow that up.

You know, it’s not like, this is really important, Kathleen, you need to take it home. None of that can be allowed. But if it’s really important, they can take it home or they can say, no, we don’t need that. So I love that you deferred to certain people in there. And you know, my brother has already told my mom, yeah, I’m just backing up a U-Haul and taking everything straight to the dump.

And my mom says, and that’s why you don’t have keys to my house. And so.

Kathi (14:55.138)

But, yeah.

Kathleen (14:55.208)

And, you know, it’s acknowledging everyone grieves in different ways. And for me, the space I’ve gotten to, having lost many other relatives, no object, no finite object was worth the relationship. It is not worth continued bitterness. It’s not worth someone seeing that I’m wearing a ring 10 years later and thinking, that should have been mine. No object is worth that. If I really want a ring, I can go buy a ring.

Kathi (14:59.213)

Yes.

Kathi (15:08.888)

Right? Yes.

Kathleen (15:25.126)

Right? And that’s where I come from. Having grown up seeing this house, that’s the context I come from. I’ve chosen to live a very different way. And everyone is grappling with their own grief in different ways. And cleaning out this house for all of us was a deeply emotional experience. You know, if we’re talking just practically, one of the very practical things that I ended up needing to do was create some space.

Kathi (15:34.371)

Right.

Kathi (15:45.335)

you

Kathleen (15:55.096)

you know, when I was getting into my great aunt’s bedroom in particular, that was the worst. That was the space where there was the least beauty, where she had just piled up. There were load-bearing bags of trash. And I’m not exaggerating there load-bearing trash. she had chucked every shoe she’d ever owned just in a corner. There were Christmas gifts that she had been given that were just chucked in a corner. Every purse just chucked over there. Every article of clothing, every jar of deodorant was everything.

Kathi (16:24.182)

Wow.

Kathleen (16:25.154)

Everything was there. And it was so hard to see the way that she had lived. Someone I loved so desperately. And to see the extent of that illness. That was one of those doors that was always closed. And I could be in there for a bit. And then I needed to leave. And I needed to give myself time to walk around the fields that are there. It’s a beautiful piece of farmland. And I needed to go remind myself what was beautiful and get a little bit of distance from all of that.

Kathi (16:37.336)

Yeah.

Kathi (16:53.622)

Yeah, yeah. Obviously, there was probably some mental illness. There was definitely some, some, you know, some issues that she had. I, I have a lot of people who are listening right now, who probably are not in that extreme of a circumstance, but are embarrassed. And they don’t want their family to come over because they don’t want them to see it.

Kathi (17:26.36)

two questions for you. How do you feel about your aunt after seeing that? your feelings towards her change? Did your affection for her change? And I know we should obviously say no, of course not, because that’s the good and right thing for people to say. But I think people need to hear, were you able to stay in a place of compassion?

If there was one thing that your aunt could have done differently, one small thing, whether it was saying, hey, this thing is important, pay attention to it, or I don’t know. What do you wish your aunt knew?

Kathleen (18:00.551)

Yeah.

Kathleen (18:17.64)

I am able to get back to a place of compassion now. There were times when there was real anger when I was going through her room when I was going through her pantry, and there’s a whole barn that’s attached to the space as well that’s just full. There was anger. There was confusion. There was gratitude to God for not letting the whole place go up. There was…

Kathi (18:39.118)

Yeah.

Kathleen (18:46.108)

We found every printer she’d ever owned, every computer, and everything was still plugged into everything else. And I’m like, how did this place not go up? But there really was, there had been a sense of this property is such a gift, you know, that’s coming to my family. And it was not a gift. Going through all of that, that was not a gift. That was hard work. That was sacrifice. And I love her so much. I still love her. And

Kathi (19:01.71)

Hmm.

Kathi (19:12.972)

Yeah.

Kathleen (19:16.232)

I wanted my children to be able to go there and experience it and see what I had loved about that property. And instead I actually needed to send them away. They were there for about an hour and it was like, they shouldn’t be here. This isn’t good for them to see psychologically, biologically, this isn’t good for them. So they were out with my sister-in-law for a large part of this. It was such an overwhelming sense of, why didn’t you let me help? Did you not trust me with this?

Kathi (19:33.09)

Yeah.

Kathi (19:45.89)

Yeah.

Kathleen (19:45.916)

Did you think I would have loved you less if you had let me help with this? And I understand there was probably never a tipping point when there was never any impetus for her to say, I need the help here. But I wish she had. It was this, the last act of love that I could give her was taking that embarrassment for her.

Kathi (20:00.301)

Yeah.

Kathi (20:06.721)

Right. Right.

Kathleen (20:08.506)

I wish I could have done that for her. wish more than I can express that I could have said, okay, please just go away. I’m going to send you on a two-week vacation somewhere. Everyone who loves you, we’re going to help you out with this. Let us help. And sure, it would have been embarrassing. It’s always embarrassing to say I need help. But she just festered away in this house that was rotting around her.

Kathi (20:26.72)

Yes. Right.

Kathleen (20:35.688)

not caring for any of it, so now I can’t care for any of it. Now everything becomes trash. I was seeing things that were absolute treasures. I found a tin of three-by-five cards, and she had been a teacher for 30 some years. And on these three-by-five cards were nursery rhymes that she had written out. And they were all divided into, this is good for cleanup time, or these are fun songs to sing in the classroom while we’re waiting for lunch.

And I wanted to keep every one of them, but unfortunately I found that tin underneath a used adult diaper that had just been discarded. So I couldn’t keep any of it. So yeah, there was anger, there was compassion. It was all mixed together. And when it got to be too much, then I went for a walk.

Kathi (21:11.459)

Yeah.

Kathi (21:15.266)

Yeah.

Kathi (21:18.838)

Yeah. Yeah.

I think what I take away from this is to ask for the help sooner rather than later. And right now, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, right now is the sooner because it’s not going to get better on its own. It’s just not. And most of us have people in our lives who love us, who don’t want to see us living in squalor.

Kathleen (21:32.075)

yes.

Kathi (21:53.304)

who don’t, and here’s the thing, know, clutter is not a big issue for me anymore, but I have that tendency and all it takes is a hurt ankle or a change in circumstances. know, this has nothing to do with what you’ve been talking about with your aunt, but like three things at our house have died all at once, right?

Kathleen (22:07.574)

Yeah.

Kathi (22:22.804)

a light in our garage, our microwave, like everything. And so our lives are totally disjointed at this moment. You wouldn’t think that that would be enough to kind of throw things into a tailspin, but it really is. You know, when you’ve got the contents for your garage out on your driveway, it, it, and it just takes a few of those things to just feel like you’re not going to catch your breath again.

Kathleen (22:34.551)

You

Kathi (22:50.97)

and to say this is when I need the help before those dominoes completely fall. Kathleen, have you taken away anything from this about how you, I know you’re not a cluttery person. I’ve known you long enough to know that, but have you taken anything away from this where you’re like, this is something in my life I’m going to do differently because of this experience I’ve had in my great aunt’s home?

Kathleen (22:59.249)

Absolutely.

Kathleen (23:19.004)

Yes, I have a few items that I kept that are really, really special from in my direct line. I am the oldest woman in my family and I have a piece of kitchen equipment from all these other women. So those are in my China cabinet. Those were up in my China cabinet. So I would see them all the time. And okay, this is going to make me sound like I don’t like I don’t care about the family too much or I don’t care about this group, but.

Kathi (23:31.566)

Got it.

Kathi (23:47.178)

No, no.

Kathleen (23:48.974)

I realized I don’t want to be confronted with that memory and that grief every time I walk into my dining room. I don’t need to see that every time. So I have decided now that those go into my Christmas box. Those are things that I bring out in December. And once a year I can, this is also what I do with my, the family jewelry that I have. It’s not something I wear. You know, I don’t wear a lot of jewelry and,

Kathi (23:57.614)

Hmm.

Kathi (24:01.005)

Yeah.

Kathi (24:07.766)

Yes.

Kathi (24:17.219)

Right.

Kathleen (24:18.896)

just not really me, but I have all of this family jewelry. So I always put it on my Christmas tree to add a little bit of sparkle and bling. And these kitchen items that I have can, those can be part of a holiday centerpiece. I can bring those out. That’s a fun thing to look at, but I don’t need it all the time. My house doesn’t need to absorb someone else’s house.

Kathi (24:24.194)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (24:31.959)

Right.

Kathi (24:40.278)

Yes, it’s so true. You know, it’s so interesting. My best example of this is Susie Flory, who you know, gave me these handmade Native American dolls that I just love. I love them. I love them. But there’s not really like a place for them. So I put them with my fall decor. You know, like I have a little one box for each season. And every time I pull those out, they make me so happy.

But oftentimes when you have things out 24 seven 365, they just become part of the background noise. And when I pull those out, I think, gosh, I love Susie. I’m so grateful for her friendship. And she got me these specifically because they’re from a native American tribe in the area that she and I both live in. And so they’re really, you know, they have a story behind them and they’re meaningful to me. And

Kathleen (25:31.452)

Hmm.

Kathi (25:37.408)

I think about them every year instead of never. And I love that you’re saying there’s going to be a day each year where I pull those out. I think about the women in my family. you know, and knowing you, I thank God for their legacy and what they’ve sewn into me and your daughters and your sister. It’s, beautiful. It’s absolutely beautiful.

I think we have been tricked into thinking that if we love somebody, we keep their stuff around for the rest of our lives. you know, those dishes may be important to one of your girls when they get older, and they may not be. And both of those answers are okay. Both of those answers are okay because, you know, my daughters are not stuffed people.

Kathleen (26:14.119)

Yes.

Kathleen (26:27.996)

Right.

Kathi (26:34.466)

They don’t want all those things. My sons are definitely not stuffed people. And I’m okay with that. And so for our hearts to be settled to say we don’t need to keep all those things, and yet it doesn’t diminish our love for that person is bucking against society, but it is so true. It is so true.

Kathleen (26:58.428)

Yes.

Kathi (27:00.558)

Can I ask you, what’s the plan for the house now? Are you guys selling it to somebody local? Like, what’s the hope?

Kathleen (27:06.728)

It’s very much in my dad’s hands. So that is kind of a to be determined. The one thing that is certain is that the house needs to be demolished. Because again, she didn’t take care of it. She wasn’t capable of taking care of it. was too much house, was too much property. She had never been trained to. She grew up in a time when the men are doing the hard work and the light bulb goes out in the barn and she’s not gonna get on the ladder to fix it.

Kathi (27:13.464)

Yeah.

Kathi (27:18.956)

Yeah.

Yeah, right, right, absolutely.

Kathi (27:27.555)

Bye.

Kathi (27:34.423)

Yeah.

Kathleen (27:35.314)

You know, especially in the later years, she didn’t know what to do about the mold that was taking over. All of those things. So the house now is, I mean, it was never in fabulous shape, but now it’s the rats and the mice. And I think I told you that the mouse traps had been put out, but then the rats moved in and they stole the mouse traps, which I believe means that the mice have been enslaved by the rats. You could hear them.

Kathi (27:40.13)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (27:47.361)

Right.

Kathi (27:51.895)

Yeah.

Kathleen (28:05.38)

everywhere. It’s the house needs to be demolished. So there’s I see so much in there. And there’s so much history that I can’t there’s there’s a grinding stone. It’s massive. It’s beautiful. It looks like a museum piece. It would be so cool to have I look at that. These old farm tools that my great grandfather and his sons all used. I would love to have them.

Kathi (28:05.637)

my god.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (28:20.547)

Yeah.

Kathi (28:26.978)

Yeah.

Kathi (28:34.68)

Yeah. Right. Right.

Kathleen (28:34.834)

there’s no place in my house for this. What would I do with that? The one piece, the one piece I really want. I think, I don’t know if I showed you a photo of this. I can text you a photo of this for your show notes is that the indoor plumbing was installed in the sixties. And before then there’s a three-holer that’s out in the back that everyone would just use. There’s one hole that’s a little bit smaller. I think that’s for the baby butts and they’re the normal adult size. So, you know,

Kathi (28:47.277)

Yes, please.

Kathi (28:52.152)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (28:56.331)

No!

Kathi (29:00.77)

Yes. Right. I love the board. Yes.

Kathleen (29:04.764)

And I really want, I want that board. I want the board with the three holes in them. I want to hang that up in my bathroom. I want that so bad, Kathi. So that’s the one piece before the house is demolished that I would like to hold onto. But other than that, it’s all going. And that would have made my great aunt so sad. And she was thinking this could be donated to a historical society. We talked to a variety of historical societies and about all the great farm tools that were authentic and vintage. And they said,

Kathi (29:19.533)

Yeah.

Kathleen (29:34.866)

There are a lot of old farms. We have all of this. We’re good. Thank you so much. And to know that so much of this that she was so, that she put so much weight and identity on ended up in a dumpster in the rain. And it was all going to be ground up and then put in a landfill, all of it.

Kathi (29:37.346)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (29:50.796)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (29:57.27)

I think to me the big lesson for this is ask for help sooner rather than later. And you know, it really is to know what you have. Because here on the West Coast, something that is that old is very rare. But on the East Coast, not so much. And so to know that is really, really interesting. And I know that

Kathleen (30:03.048)

Yes.

Kathleen (30:15.868)

Yes.

Kathi (30:27.018)

your husband’s job. Explain just really briefly what he does.

Kathleen (30:32.272)

Right, my husband is a historian, an architectural historian. So he works specifically with the national parks to do cultural resource surveys. But he is trained in fixing houses like this, period houses with the period tools and all the architecture of that.

Kathi (30:51.778)

Yeah, I was just gonna say anything you wanna bring home, he’d probably be okay with. Yeah, exactly. And he would know what to do with it, but he’s like the one person in my circle of people who would actually know what to do with it. The rest of us would be, we’d hang it on the wall and be done with it. But to ask for help, to ask for input, to ask for, is this actually worth something? Or is there somebody who would actually like this?

Kathleen (30:56.32)

he’d love it.

Kathleen (31:11.077)

Exactly.

Kathi (31:20.972)

Because I know your aunt didn’t want to leave you with a burden, but because she didn’t ask for help, she had no choice.

Kathleen (31:27.27)

No.

Mm.

Nor could she, I’m convinced, really process how much of a burden it would be. I don’t think she really knew how much of that, just how much she had. And if I could go back and tell her anything and show her anything, and I’m not sure how this would have been received or could have been received, it was so hard to do that work. was logistically, it is hard for me to get across the continent. Logistically, it is hard for me to take my kiddos with me.

Kathi (31:37.772)

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (31:49.356)

Right, sure.

Kathleen (32:02.376)

logistically and expensive, you know, that’s a big trip. It’s hard to figure out the Airbnb where we’re going to be staying. It’s hard just to take the week off work. It’s just hard. I wouldn’t give up that time for anything. The time that I spent nurturing new relationships with my cousins and my cousin’s fiance and seeing my kids and seeing the family grow and not being stuck in the past of what the family was in 1950.

Kathi (32:17.912)

Yeah.

Kathleen (32:31.624)

But seeing the family as it is in 2024 was an immense gift to me. It was a blessing to me, even when it hurt, even when it was hard. I wouldn’t give that up for anything. I wish I could have had that and given her the gift of a beautiful space to live at the same time.

Kathi (32:48.578)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kathleen, this is such a good reminder to not let your life become small. To ask for the help to change the light bulb, to take care of the mold the first time you see it, or ask somebody, how do I do this? This big, beautiful house became smaller and smaller because she didn’t know what to do.

Kathleen (32:57.288)

Hmm.

Kathi (33:15.114)

And it’s okay that you don’t know what to do. Roger and I are the world’s living example of like, we don’t know what to do. Like living in this big house and you know, what do you do? And so to get comfortable asking for help, get comfortable asking for help from your family, from friends, because people love you and they wanna help out. Kathleen, this has been a precious time. Thanks so much for spending it with me.

Kathleen (33:23.006)

I’m

Kathleen (33:43.56)

Thanks for making the space for it, Kathi.

Kathi (33:46.082)

Friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutterfree Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.

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Links Mentioned:

www.donnajones.org

Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life by Donna Jones

www.facebook.com/donnajonesspeak

www.instagram.com/donnaajones

Find Donna Jones’s “That’s Just What I Needed Podcast” on Apple, Spotify, or here.

 

Clutter Free Resources:

How does emotional attachment to possessions contribute to conflicts in your relationships? 

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Meet Our Guest 

 

Donna Jones

Donna is a national speaker, author, host of the “That’s Just What I Needed” podcast and self-described Bible explainer who loves her God, her family, a strong cup of coffee and really cute shoes. Her latest book is Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. Visit her at www.donnajones.org.

 

Tonya Kubo Picture
Transcript

Well, hey, friends, welcome to Clutter -Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life.

And guys, I’ve got a new friend to introduce us to. I was just on her podcast. We had a blast and I knew when I heard the title of her new book, she needed to come be with our clutter free people. This is Donna Jones. She is a national speaker. She’s the podcast host of That’s Just What I Needed. And she is the author of Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. Donna, welcome to the podcast.

Donna Jones (00:52.494)

thank you so much for having me, Kathi. This is fun.

Kathi (00:56.839)

Well, you know, it’s so interesting because I was just talking with my pastor the other day and we were talking about different stages in life and what I was telling him was for my listeners over 50, probably one of the most frequent questions I have is how do I pass this stuff on down to my kids?

And probably the most frequent question I get from people under the age of 40 is, how do I tell my parents I don’t want their stuff? And…

Donna Jones (01:30.318)

areas.

Kathi (01:31.335)

That is a situation that is ripe for conflict It’s so funny because I just had this conversation with my mom the other day We are going there and we’re sifting through some of her stuff and she said do you want to contact Kimberly? Who’s my daughter or do you want me to to ask her if she wants your wedding album and Let’s just be clear. This is the wedding album from me and her father not my current husband

because I am remarried. I’m like, mom, she doesn’t want it. And she goes, well, how do you know? And I said, because she doesn’t want anything. And she really doesn’t want the album. And by the way, I’ve asked her if she wanted any of the pictures. She’s like, no, I’m good. I would rather remember you guys separately than together. I’m like, fair enough. I agree with that. But there is so much drama over stuff. And.

Donna Jones (02:01.038)

No.

Donna Jones (02:27.502)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kathi (02:30.343)

There are just, there’s so many scenarios where I believe you should want this stuff. And if you don’t want this stuff, what does that say about our relationship? Or you’re giving away the item that I gave you and what does that say about you and me? Or my kids thinking I should be able to hang on to their stuff for eternity. And there’s so much conflict.

over this stuff that is in our lives? And why do you think that possessions are such a hot topic? Or do you? Maybe you don’t agree with that.

Donna Jones (03:07.406)

no one. Yeah, no, no, no, I actually do. Well, to be honest with you, Kathi, almost anything can become a fair game for conflict. And so possessions fall into that category. And you know, it’s funny knowing I was going to come on your podcast, knowing that you’re clutter fleet, clutter free community here. I thought when we are embroiled in conflict, it clutters our mind.

Kathi (03:16.847)

Right.

Donna Jones (03:33.934)

It clutters our soul. I mean, the last thing we’re feeling is peaceful because we are replaying the conflict over and over and over. You know, we’re thinking about what he said, what she said, what we said, what we wish we said. You know, we’re going around, we’re talking about with our husband, with our girlfriend, with our mother. It’s just so consuming. Our brain is cluttered when we don’t know how to handle conflict well.

Kathi (03:34.311)

Yes. Yes.

Kathi (03:39.289)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (03:48.391)

Yes.

Kathi (03:55.815)

Yes.

Donna Jones (04:01.934)

So it’s just so, it’s so important.

Kathi (04:02.215)

100 % yes. I think of clutter as encumberment and conflict can often feel like encumberment but the commonality between stuff and conflict is both are necessary to a certain extent, aren’t they?

Donna Jones (04:08.192)

Yeah, I think perfect. Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (04:23.438)

Yes, yes. Okay, you’re exactly right because we have to have stuff, right, to live. And conflict is, if I could have written a book that was how to get rid of conflict from now into eternity, that’s time me up, right? But that’s not feasible. So thus, healthy conflict, peaceful life. We need to know how to deal with conflict in a healthy way, just like we need to know how to handle possessions.

Kathi (04:29.991)

Yes, right.

Kathi (04:37.671)

Girl, sign me up. Right.

Kathi (04:46.823)

Yes.

Donna Jones (04:52.782)

in a healthy way. And so we use our possessions, we don’t let our possessions use us. In the same way we use our conflict to work for us, we don’t let our conflict work against us, which is frankly what too many of us do. Because we just don’t know how, how do I handle this conflict? So to your point about the stuff and that people over 50,

Kathi (04:53.159)

Mmm, yes.

Kathi (05:13.959)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (05:19.342)

you know, how do I pass this down and the people under 50, how do I tell my parents I don’t want it? That goes to the way we view things. And Kathi, one of the things that I like to say that I really think is true is the way we view things determines the way we do things.

Kathi (05:28.551)

you

Kathi (05:38.823)

Okay, so unpack that for me.

Donna Jones (05:40.718)

Okay, so let me, I’m going to relate that to possessions first, then I’m going to relate that to conflict. So, because I know your audience is all about the possessions, the clutter. So the way you view a certain item, like let’s just go back to your mother and your wedding album. In her mind, she’s viewing it that way. That was a special moment. That was a milestone. So the way she viewed it is going to determine what she does with that. So how you view things determines how you do things.

Kathi (05:45.991)

Okay.

Kathi (05:51.207)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (05:57.671)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:02.055)

Right.

Kathi (06:09.271)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (06:10.67)

right? Your daughter views that as like, that’s just a reminder of what I don’t want to remember. So then that determines what she does with it, right? So if we can understand in terms of conflict, that one of the reasons we have conflict is because we’re viewing things a little bit differently. And we tend to assume that people just view things the way we view things.

Kathi (06:16.711)

Right.

Yes. Mmm, yes.

Kathi (06:33.927)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (06:39.982)

that this particular possession is as important to me as it is to you. And that’s not always the case. Or the fact that the house is neat is as important to me as is important to you. Or the fact that there’s a lot of clutter that’s no big deal, it goes on and on and on and on and on, right? So, which is why we have conflict with our kids over a messy room. What we define as we view it is, we tell our teenager, clean up your room.

Kathi (06:40.071)

Right.

Kathi (06:46.279)

Yes.

Kathi (06:53.223)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:57.447)

Right. Yes.

Kathi (07:03.912)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (07:10.382)

And we walk in and we’re like, are you kidding me? Like, okay, yeah, they pulled up their duvet and it’s not on the floor anymore, but the trash is still overflowing in there. There’s water bottles sitting around on the counter or whatever. And we’re like, this is not clean to me. So because the way we view things is you determining the way we do things and they’re viewing it differently. So.

Kathi (07:14.247)

Right.

Kathi (07:20.359)

Mm -hmm Right

Kathi (07:34.567)

Right.

Donna Jones (07:39.982)

You gotta talk about the way you view things.

Kathi (07:42.535)

Yeah, so let’s talk about this in the area of people you actually live with. So for me, that’s my husband. And now part -time, we live with my mom because we’re helping her deal with some stuff. And so how do you deal with the fact that there’s an emotional attachment? Or in Clutterfree, we talk about fear, guilt, and shame. Fear.

but what if I need that item someday? Guilt, so -and -so gave it to me, so I need to keep it for the rest of my life, and shame, I spent so much money on it, and if I give it away or throw it away, it just means I’m a wasteful person. And so we have these hangups, but our roommate, whomever that is, a spouse, a child, a parent, an actual roommate that you’re,

Living in the same space with doesn’t have that same emotional attachment to it How do you come to a place where you can discuss that? Maybe there’s some conflict or you know, is there a way to avoid the conflict when you’re discussing it or how do you get to the other side?

Donna Jones (08:45.582)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (09:00.238)

Yeah, that’s such a good question. And first of all, your listeners are ahead of the game because they know the three root causes. So they can assess themselves, okay, why is this important to me? But because they know the three root causes, they also have insight into what’s going on in the brain of the other person. So they can go, you know, and you don’t even have to say this to the other person. I wonder if that’s fear. I wonder if that’s shame. I wonder, you know, you can kind of, which is helps you.

Kathi (09:05.927)

Mmm.

Yes.

Kathi (09:13.191)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (09:19.559)

Yes.

Kathi (09:25.607)

Mm, right.

Donna Jones (09:29.966)

understand and understanding is one of the biggest keys to being able to resolve conflict when you understand another person’s perspective. So your listeners are already, you know, three steps ahead of most people. You do, you do. So I would say as you know, as you are, let’s say, trying to declutter some things, really talk about it.

Kathi (09:33.959)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (09:41.191)

We’ve got some smarties. We really do. Yes.

Donna Jones (09:57.326)

and just talk about, hey, what do you think about this? One of the things that, it’s even on my website, actually, Kathi, because I get this question so often, how do you start a hard conversation in a healthy way? And so sometimes when you’re working through clutter, you’re working through stuff, you’re working through, you almost wanna avoid it because you think, I don’t want this to be a big blow up, right?

Kathi (10:10.695)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (10:26.215)

Right.

Donna Jones (10:27.118)

So you need to know, okay, how do I even start this so that this conversation goes well, so the other person doesn’t get defensive, I still feel heard, and it doesn’t become a big conflict. So one of the things that I like to say is so helpful is that you start with a question. So most of us tend to start with our perspective, right?

Kathi (10:37.959)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Kathi (10:56.199)

Right, okay?

Donna Jones (10:56.878)

However, if you start with a question and you let the other person go first, then you find information about the way the person is thinking, feeling, you know, processing that you wouldn’t know otherwise. And it helps you know what to say next. Because now you’ve got this piece of information about this person and their perspective that you didn’t have before. And then number two, when they go first,

Kathi (11:03.783)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (11:24.487)

Right.

Donna Jones (11:26.99)

they feel like you’re automatically on their side and the defenses go down. So it’s a win -win. So you might say some, you know, let’s just say you’re cleaning out the garage with your spouse and you hold up some item that you think, I cannot believe that my husband still has this ridiculous hobby thing that he hasn’t done in 15 years, right? And…

Kathi (11:30.439)

Hmm, okay.

Kathi (11:37.255)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (11:46.959)

Right.

Kathi (11:53.031)

Right. Hey, let’s just use, for example, a guitar, which is just coming off the top of my head that I’ve seen, not that I have any, yes, but if you were going to give somebody a script, what would that script be? Would you ask questions about like, why is this important to you? What are your future plans? Yeah.

Donna Jones (12:02.19)

you have any?

In association with them. What would that script look like?

Donna Jones (12:19.118)

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I would say, okay, here’s what you don’t do. And then here’s what you do do. So you don’t go, you don’t hold it up and go, are you kidding me? We still have this. I thought we got, you know, gave this away five years ago. You never use this. This is definitely going to goodwill, right? So you don’t say stuff like that. Because of course the other person is going to get defensive and honestly, Kathi, even if they didn’t really want it, just by the fact that we said it that way, now they’re going to want it.

Kathi (12:24.167)

Okay.

Kathi (12:28.295)

Right. Yeah.

Yes.

Kathi (12:44.455)

Yeah.

Kathi (12:48.743)

Right, dig their heels in. Yes.

Donna Jones (12:48.878)

So we shot ourselves in the foot, right? So instead you hold up the guitar and you go, I forgot we had this. What do you think about this item? Should we give this away? What do you think about this? And we let the other person say, and let’s just say they say, no, I want to keep that. Then the next question would be, okay, well, tell me why you want to keep that.

Well, you know, the sentimental value, you know, whatever. Okay. Well, where would, where do you think it would, we should keep that so that it doesn’t clutter up our garage. So we keep, you know, asking these questions and the other, you’ll either find a solution about where it goes or the other person may even come to the conclusion like, you know what? I don’t really need that after all. But it’s kind of.

Kathi (13:27.783)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (13:36.135)

Right.

Kathi (13:42.215)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (13:44.046)

become a win -win and you haven’t gotten to fight over your stuff.

Kathi (13:47.079)

Yeah, I also am a big believer in whatever space I’ve allotted to myself that I don’t have to explain this to you. I allot to my partner. And so, you know, whether it’s a gorilla rack or a shelf on a gorilla rack, there are just some things that are hard to get rid of. Like I have a dress in there that I’ve literally never worn and.

Donna Jones (14:00.878)

Okay, yeah.

Donna Jones (14:08.558)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:15.495)

Roger does not care about it by the way, but I feel stupid that I’m keeping it, because I keep on thinking there’s got to be a way, I love this dress, I love it, but it just is a funky dress, and I tried it on, and I tried it on, and I’m like, hey, that looks cute, and then I got home, and I’m like, what was I thinking? And I bought it out of state, and so if Roger’s not gonna give me,

You know push back on this ridiculous dress that I bought maybe I need to leave the guitar alone But I do think that we have to figure out. I like your your thought Where should we keep this so it does so we’re not tripping over it every time we’re going through the garage like there are other ways to Have a win -win without somebody getting rid of it. I want to talk further about this We do need to go take take a commercial break and when we come back

I want to go over those questions one more time to give us a little script. Like to say, if we’re looking at this guitar case and we’re like, are you kidding me? This is still here. Why does this thing haunt me in my dreams? And we want to have, the goal isn’t necessarily to get rid of it. The goal is to live with the mutual decision it sounds like. And.

Donna Jones (15:37.678)

Yeah. Well, if you’re living with someone, yeah, exactly. Because that’s part of it.

Kathi (15:41.447)

Yeah, okay. I wanna come back and come up with those questions so that we can have that script that we can enter and do. So we’re gonna take a quick break, get this podcast paid for, and we’ll be right back.

Okay, Donna, here’s my question. I would love to give our listeners a little script. So, you know, let’s go back to the guitar, because that’s not a big deal. It’s just something that, well, let’s just be clear, I’ve lived with for 18 years, but it’s okay. Yeah, do I sound okay? Maybe not. So the first…

I’m not gonna say, are you kidding? We still have this guitar. This guitar haunts my dreams. We’re not gonna say that. We’re gonna say something more along the lines of, tell me about why this guitar is important to you or has been. Is that something like that?

Donna Jones (20:20.206)

Yeah, well, actually, we’re going to start with, yeah, we’re going to start with, what do you think we should do with this? Okay. That and, and.

Kathi (20:27.079)

Okay, and I’m gonna say, go ahead, tell me more.

Donna Jones (20:31.566)

No, well, I think the person goes, give it away. You’re done. I mean, you’re golden, right? You’re golden. Yeah.

Kathi (20:35.143)

You’re done. And you’re like, this is amazing. But I’m going to come back and say, but I played this in youth group, and that was kind of an important part of my life. And who knows, maybe someday I’ll pick it up again. Like these are not things Roger has necessarily said, but things that I imagine he might say. And I’m like, OK, but we don’t have a lot of room in our house. So like, what’s my next question for him?

Donna Jones (20:54.67)

Okay.

Donna Jones (21:01.166)

Yeah, so start with like, what do you think we should do with this? Then if they want to keep it, okay, tell me why that this is important. You feel like this is important to you. And then if they give you a reason, then say, okay, well, where do you think we should keep it so that it’s not in our way? And then you put it on them and then you need one. Yeah, find that place.

Kathi (21:08.519)

Yeah.

Kathi (21:20.615)

Okay, okay, to find that place. Okay, great. Now, I’m gonna challenge you with something bigger, Donna. We have people in our group, especially our paid group, Clutter -Free for Life, that their husbands have had things like farm equipment that they haven’t used in a decade, or cars, or…

I don’t know, you know, whole rooms dedicated to a hobby. So big stuff. How do you go to the next place in the conversation in big stuff?

Donna Jones (21:51.342)

So big stuff, big stuff. Yeah.

Donna Jones (21:59.566)

Yeah, yes, such a great question. Well, there is a chapter in the book called big things, little things, and everything in between. So part of handling conflict well is discerning. And when I say big things, little things, we’re talking about physical big things or physical little things, right? But there are emotional big things and emotional little things. So, you know, this is broader than just possessions.

So we got to discern, is this a big deal or a big thing or is this just a little thing like the dress in your closet? That’s just a small thing. It’s not a big deal. It doesn’t really take up much space and Rogers not, it’s not causing angst in your marriage, right? Small thing, let it go. But there are big things, emotionally big things or things like cars on the driveway or cars on the front lawn.

Kathi (22:29.543)

Right.

Kathi (22:46.503)

Right. Right.

Kathi (22:55.655)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. It’s a big deal.

Donna Jones (22:56.846)

that that’s a big deal, right? So that’s got to be addressed. That’s got to be addressed. In the book, I actually talk very specifically about a couple who were vastly different in the way they viewed a big thing. And their big thing was finances. He was a spender, she was a saver. And they just, every single time they talked about finances, it was World War Three.

Kathi (23:14.535)

Mm -hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi (23:26.503)

Donna Jones (23:26.798)

So it could be, you know, there’s somebody in your listening audience where their husband is kind of a hoarder, they’re trying to get it together and get clutter free, and it is just a constant conflict, right? So here’s what happens oftentimes is when we battle the same things over and over and over again, we tend to make the person the problem. Like if you weren’t such a hoarder, if you weren’t so invested in that darn car, you know, you see what I’m saying? So we make the person the…

Kathi (23:36.423)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (23:49.031)

Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yes.

Donna Jones (23:56.397)

problem. But here’s why that doesn’t work. We can never solve a person. We can only solve a problem. So instead of making a person the problem, keep the problem the problem. So let’s just say you have, you know, you have a whole room that you can’t use because your husband’s taking it up.

Kathi (24:03.527)

Oof. Yes.

Kathi (24:12.967)

Okay.

Donna Jones (24:23.182)

And that’s, you need that room or you want that room or that bothers you for whatever reason. So what you’re gonna do is you’re gonna sit down and you’re gonna come up with, you’re gonna talk about something that could be like a win -win solution. So, and you’re gonna think about the other person’s interests, right? So this is called like,

Kathi (24:26.887)

Right.

Right.

Kathi (24:41.127)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (24:46.631)

Okay.

Donna Jones (24:50.318)

Well, I can’t even remember what it’s called. What else is going on? It’s going out of my brain. My brain is cluttered right now. Yeah, a little side note, Kathi. Yeah, you’re trying to get to a win -win. So you sit down and you write where you’re going with this. So let’s just say it’s both of us feel good about that extra room, right? That both of us feel good about that. The way that extra room is,

Kathi (24:53.095)

That’s okay.

That’s okay.

But you’re trying to get to a win -win, is what you’re saying. Yeah.

Kathi (25:10.439)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (25:15.911)

Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes.

Donna Jones (25:20.27)

being used. Then that’s where you’re going. So you’re both going in the same direction on this problem. Then you start brainstorming and you make a commitment, we’re just going to brainstorm this as a brain dump. So no, this is not the point where you go, that’s not going to work. No, you just like throw it out. But if there’s something that it’s like, that’s just, that’s not going to work for either of us. You can dump that one.

Kathi (25:21.607)

Yes.

Kathi (25:28.775)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (25:33.543)

you

Right.

Kathi (25:48.103)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (25:48.11)

And then you just start kind of, you know, you start kind of winnowing them down, but you’re always keeping in mind, okay, what’s the end goal? So this works for you, this works for me. And, you know, you kind of work toward that. Now that might take several conversations.

Kathi (26:08.647)

Right, I think the problem we often have is we want to get to the solution in 15 minutes when the problem has taken a decade. And that’s painful. So, you know, if there is a, you know, when you’re brainstorming saying, you know, I’d really love for our kids to be able to stay in that room when they come to visit. And I know your hobby is really important to you.

Donna Jones (26:13.678)

Listen. Listen.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Kathi (26:36.519)

Could we divide the space? Could we think through, could we use, you know, you used to collect coins and stamps and now you’re just collecting stamps. Could we do something with the coin? Like, I love the idea of brainstorming together to a solution where a common win is. And that common win is we both love our kids and we’d love for them to be able to stay here. Or, yeah.

Donna Jones (26:52.846)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (26:57.038)

Yes.

Donna Jones (27:02.286)

Okay, you just, that I just want to point out what you said, that was really key. We both love our kids. So you’ve just now put yourself on the same side. You have the same interest. So at some point in all of this, you’re gonna have a common interest in some area. It might just be your kids or you might,

Kathi (27:08.199)

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (27:15.079)

Mmm, yeah.

Kathi (27:23.047)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi (27:28.295)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (27:31.158)

If you always are thinking about just your interests, I want that room back because I want to use it as a guest bedroom. That’s never going to convince someone because you’re only looking at what’s important to you. You have to remember how you view things determines how you do things. So you have to always be thinking, what’s a win for you? What would be helpful for you? So when you do that, it’s easier to resolve your conflict.

Kathi (27:38.151)

Right, right.

Yeah.

Kathi (27:52.551)

Yeah.

Kathi (27:59.143)

Let me ask you this question because we have some people in some of our groups who are in really hard circumstances. And I’m thinking of one friend in particular who, you know, we talk about.

Donna Jones (28:08.846)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (28:16.167)

in our group saying, it’s really important to me that when we have people over, I’m not embarrassed by the house. That, you know, the house doesn’t have to be perfect, but I want people to feel comfortable coming into my house. And this friend said, but what if my family doesn’t care if I’m comfortable or not? And in my estimation, that’s not a clutter problem.

Donna Jones (28:25.006)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (28:44.647)

That’s a relationship issue. What would you say to somebody who says, my family doesn’t care that I feel blank, blank, blank.

Donna Jones (28:44.846)

Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Donna Jones (28:56.782)

Yes. my goodness. It’s really interesting, Kathi, because in doing the interviews for the book and talking to people about the book, because the book is really a relational book, right? Because conflict is relational always. One of the biggest questions I get, it’s twofold really. One is what are the biggest mistakes that you can make in conflict? And

Kathi (29:08.551)

Yeah, yeah. Right, absolutely.

Kathi (29:22.439)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (29:24.686)

actually the biggest, well, I don’t know if this is the biggest, but one of the top three. I actually have a chapter in the book called the top 10 mistakes that people make in terms of conflict. But the top one of the top three would be being dismissive of another person’s concern, because that communicates disrespect, right? And it’s a very short walk from disrespect to the dissolution of a relationship.

Kathi (29:33.415)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (29:40.647)

Mmm, yeah. Yeah.

Right?

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (29:52.487)

Yeah, absolutely.

Donna Jones (29:52.59)

So that’s why being dismissive is a really big deal. So that your friend is feeling dismissed. That’s a big deal. That needs to be addressed on a deeper. Yeah, it is.

Kathi (30:00.231)

Yeah, it’s a huge deal. So is that something to take to a counselor at that point? Because that doesn’t feel like anything I can address about clutter. But I do feel like that’s not OK. Roger would never tell me, I don’t care how you feel. That would never come up. So.

Donna Jones (30:12.942)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Donna Jones (30:19.598)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (30:27.079)

Is that the next step or are there steps in between somebody saying that and going to a counselor?

Donna Jones (30:32.207)

Yeah, I think there are steps in between because sometimes we assume that, let’s just say your friend has communicated. See, that’s the other thing. Sometimes we assume that we’re communicating what’s important to us, but we’re actually not communicating it clearly. So one of the things that my husband would like to say is expectation without communication always leads to frustration.

Kathi (30:34.535)

Okay.

Kathi (30:58.279)

that is true, yes.

Donna Jones (31:00.334)

Yeah. So we have to make sure, wait, did I communicate this in a clear way? And if I didn’t, that’s maybe why I’m frustrated because the other person’s not clear on my expectation.

Kathi (31:04.743)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Okay. I’m expecting you to mind read and suddenly you’ve lost that power. Darn it. Okay.

Donna Jones (31:14.03)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that’s the first step. Did I communicate this? My wants, my needs, my expectations, whatever. And then if, let’s just say you did, and the other person’s like, well, I don’t care. Why is that a big deal to you? Now that’s when you need to have a deeper conversation.

about and you need to really address some of these issues, right? Now, this may not be counseling level yet. This is where you make conflict work for you rather than against you. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is a conflict continuum that on either side of an unhealthy way of dealing with conflict is

Kathi (32:00.839)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (32:07.086)

On one side is avoidance, we’re the avoiders, and on the other side are the attackers. And probably all of your listeners know where they are, either more toward avoidance or more toward attacking, and they also probably know what their family members are, right?

Kathi (32:12.775)

Mm -hmm.

You’re right.

Kathi (32:23.431)

We’re two avoiders married to each other, so you know, nothing ever gets done. Yes.

Donna Jones (32:27.502)

basically you know you know right so here’s the thing Kathi neither of those is healthy or biblical so instead of being an avoider or an attacker the sweet spot in the middle is are the addressers and these are the people who have learned to address the issues so that the conflict ends up

Kathi (32:35.175)

Right.

Donna Jones (32:54.222)

being able to be resolved or worked through or at least managed in a healthy way. Okay? So, and a lot of the book is, okay, how do you do that? Because that’s the golden ticket. That’s the golden question, right?

Kathi (32:56.967)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kathi (33:05.671)

Right.

Yeah, so yeah, and I will correct myself and say with Roger and myself we are addressers to each other, but we were born both avoiders. So we are growing, we are growing, we’re still avoiders with some other people because my goodness, yeah. Okay, so just a final question here. If somebody, you know, and I definitely, guys, I recommend the book and we’ll put a link in there for,

Donna Jones (33:18.126)

that’s good.

Donna Jones (33:22.702)

Hahaha!

Kathi (33:38.119)

for all of you to check that out. If somebody is saying, you know what, this has been something, I’m tired of avoiding the conversation, or I’m tired of the fight level in my household, because I know that this is a short trigger for me.

I get very angry when I talk about that. What is one major step we can do to address the conflict in a healthy way that we haven’t talked about yet in the podcast? You say, my end goal is for both myself and this person I live with to have a good outcome. I want to address this in a healthy way and I don’t want to go back to my old patterns of attack or avoidance. What’s one thing I can do?

Donna Jones (34:36.014)

Okay, when most people think of how to handle conflict, they think of what action do I need to take? But the most important component of handling conflict well is not an action. It’s an attitude. And that attitude is humility. And here’s why.

Humility allows us to both see our perspective and the other person’s perspective. And humility is not the same thing as humiliation, right? Humility simply makes us a doorway for conversation, not a doormat for exploitation. So they’re really different. So if we’re humble, then that opens the door for further conversation.

Kathi (35:28.647)

No.

Kathi (35:38.279)

Mmm, yes.

Donna Jones (35:47.118)

So we really have to go back to this is you and me, not you versus me. So let me tell you, let me just close with this story that this was such a powerful but yet simple thing that my husband taught me really just by the way he responded to me. We were having a conflict early in our marriage.

Kathi (35:56.007)

Right.

Donna Jones (36:11.694)

And I really wanted him to see my perspective and he really wanted me to see his perspective. And we were going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And you know how that goes. Nobody’s really listening to each other and you’re interrupting each other and the conflict is escalating, escalating, escalating. And then we got to the point where JP just looked at me and he goes, Donna, Donna, I’m on your team. And Cathy, that phrase, I’m on your team, literally.

de -escalated that conflict in a nanosecond. Because what that did is it reminded me that, okay, we’re not adversaries here. And let’s try to work this out. But sometimes we just have to say that out loud. We have to verbally express our humility. Hey, I’m on your team. And we can do this. That takes humility.

Kathi (36:45.127)

Yes.

Kathi (36:53.159)

Right.

Kathi (37:05.275)

Yes. When it comes to decluttering, when it comes to decluttering, I think one of the humility stances we have to take is I, even though I belong to this group, I listen to this podcast, like I’m up in the clutter all the time, I don’t necessarily have the best answer. Like,

Maybe my spouse or my roommate or my child or my parent has a better idea how to handle this thing that we perceive as clutter. Maybe they have a better idea or maybe brainstorming together. We can because I think most of us know, well, that should be thrown away or that should be donated or that should be stored in this way. And to say humility says I want to win for both of us.

So let’s brainstorm together and be on the same team. Because our common enemy is the chaos in our lives. And being on the same team says, we don’t defeat each other, we defeat the chaos. And that’s what we’re going to do here. Donna, this is such a great perspective. Friends, the book is called Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. And isn’t that?

Donna Jones (38:11.597)

Mmm, yes.

Kathi (38:30.887)

I know we all want to avoid the conflict. We can’t avoid the conflict. So let’s deal with it in a healthy way. We’re going to have notes and links in the podcast notes so that you can go find out more about Donna, more about the book, and more about her podcast. Donna, thanks so much for being on ClutterFree Academy.

Donna Jones (38:49.902)

thank you so much, Kathi. This was just a joy.

Kathi (38:52.807)

This is so much fun to talk about from all the different perspectives for me. I just love it and friends Thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to clutter free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp now go create the clutter free life You’ve always wanted to live

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